Post by: Mark Simpson on June 13, 2010, 10:05:10 AM
I've been taking a look out there at used digital mixers.. And see that what was once very pricey is now pretty cheap, which is the way digital goes with everything I guess....
Original Yamaha 02r and 03d mixers are pretty cheap, often going for less than $400 or $500... Mackie d8b's going for a few hundred as well...
These mixers were all intended for project studio use though.. I'm not sure why the D8b's are so cheap, but they are.. Perhaps there were problems with these boards?
Anyways, I am really interested in possibly saving up for a used 02r or 03D.. But the problem with both mixers is 'mic inputs'... The 02r comes with 8 mic pres and 8 balanced line ins ad 4 card slots.. Similar thing with the 03d..
I see many of these boards include expansion cards adding an additional 8 line ins or ADAT lightpipe or AES/EBU...
I would want to use them for live work as well as recording... meaning that for live stuff, 8 mic pres ain't gonna get it done... I would need 24.. Did yamaha offer expansion cards that added mic pres? Or is the only way via outboard pres, either analog or conversion to lightpipe?
Anyone ever used these things for live stuff that could shed some light on whether they'd be worth the trouble or not...
Thanx...
Post by: Mac Kerr on June 13, 2010, 10:42:13 AM
The 02R and 03R were intended as project studio boards, but I think the main drawback is the lack of mic inputs. That is easily remedied. I think Arnold Krueger has been happy with his 02R.
Mac
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 13, 2010, 11:24:01 AM
I have seen 02r's go for under $300... For some reason, the 03d's go for more.....
Thanx for the reply...
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 13, 2010, 11:30:34 AM
How do people deal with reading lcd displays and computer monitors in daylight situations.. Seeing as so many touring companies are using digital boards now, how do they deal with this issue...
Blessings...
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 13, 2010, 12:32:36 PM
To answer your question about viewing displays outdoors. This was a problem with early digitals. All of the more recent consoles designed for touring use have more advanced displays that allow viewing in bright light, many even in direct sunlight. This is designed into the consoles that are for touring use and it costs much more per display. It's not available, that I know of, on any digitals below the low $20,000.00 retail mark.
Keep in mind that even though the displays are viewable in sunlight all that I am aware of can be damaged by direct sunlight over time and do require a canopy or some sort of shade to avoid this.
His,
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Post by: Mac Kerr on June 13, 2010, 04:02:25 PM
| Mark Simpson wrote on Sun, 13 June 2010 11:24 |
Do the Berhinger units provide phantom power? If so, this becomes a very viable solution... |
Yes. Lots of info available here, or here.
Mac
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 13, 2010, 06:29:23 PM
| Mac Kerr wrote on Sun, 13 June 2010 13:02 | ||
Yes. Lots of info available here, or here. Mac |
Thanks for the behringer link.. Google doesn't play nice with my browser...
A nice side benefit to this thing is that it could serve as a direct front end to an ADAT.. No mixer required during tracking....
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 13, 2010, 06:33:31 PM
| Lee Buckalew wrote on Sun, 13 June 2010 09:32 |
Outdoors you also have, potentially, heat to deal with. Consoles designed for indoor use may have more problems outdoors as they are designed for more controlled environments. |
And it definitely gets 'hot' here.. 100+ degree days are commonplace in the summer...
Man, there's always a catch....
Thanks for the input... I wonder what other options are out there for digital on the cheap?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 13, 2010, 06:50:04 PM
This would not tolerate a direct sun situation in temps even approaching 90 most likely. Temps over 100 would definitely be a problem.
Check the max free air temp ratings on any gear you're considering for outdoor use.
His,
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on June 14, 2010, 07:47:24 AM
| Mac Kerr wrote on Sun, 13 June 2010 15:42 |
The 02R and 03R were intended as project studio boards, |
I'm not sure about the 02R96 being intended for project studios.
I've been told by a lot of people that 16 mic inputs is more than enough for a lot of live sound and recording applications.
For example I point out the lack of expansion facilities on the new Presonus mixers, and people say: "So what"?
| Quote: |
but I think the main drawback is the lack of mic inputs. |
I think that a lot of people had problems with how virtual the 02R seemed to be in many people's minds, back in the days when it was introduced.
| Quote: |
That is easily remedied. |
Agreed. We bought our 02R96 with a pair of ADA8000s and a MY16AT since we were replacing a SR32. I shortly added an 8 channel mic preamp so that the 8 line level inputs on the 02R96 were available as mic inputs.
| Quote: |
I think Arnold Krueger has been happy with his 02R. |
If it matters, we have an 02R96, not a 02R.
I've never seriously looked at an 02R until today, but with just 8 mic preamps, it looks like something that will quickly put you in the market for some expansion hardware. I don't see much of a used equipment market selling MY16AT cards, so the $400+ new pruce for those could nearly double the cost of expansion.
Since neither the 02R nor the 02R96 save the gain settings of the internal mic preamps with the scene, external preamps have no serious ease-of-use disadvantages as compared to the onboard preamps.
It appears that the 02R lacks some of the ease-of-use features of the 02R96.
It seems like the used equipment prices of 02r96s and DM2000s has held up very well which for the purposes of this discussion, is a disadvantage.
Post by: George S Dougherty on June 14, 2010, 05:58:40 PM
Anything that spends any amount of time outdoors is going to need regular maintenance.
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 14, 2010, 11:46:46 PM
I've done shows for a week at a time where it's been 105 - 115 every day. No computers would tolerate the heat of the day where we were. Not even in the shade.
That sort of temp requires some cooling. At least dry ice and fans.
His,
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 15, 2010, 07:52:14 AM
| Lee Buckalew wrote on Mon, 14 June 2010 20:46 |
A typical computer also won't take ambient temps of over 100. I've done shows for a week at a time where it's been 105 - 115 every day. No computers would tolerate the heat of the day where we were. Not even in the shade. That sort of temp requires some cooling. At least dry ice and fans. His, Lee Buckalew Pro Sound Advice, Inc. |
It gets that hot here, especially in the valley, where most work would likely be...
I was wondering about the possibility of using a small window A/C unit and flexible hoses to direct the air where needed.. I could point one of them at 'me'...
As it is, it's SOP to already put a box fan at the back of the amp racks on stage to draw air through them....
The 02r96's are out of my price range for a while...
What I don't like about the presonus units is the lack of motorized faders.. If I'm going to be using layers, I want the fader positions to reflect the current layer in use, so that 'at a glance' I can see what's going on... And I don't want to have to move the fader a lot, to get to the current fader position to make a minor adjustment...
Not to mention, they are even more out of my price range...
Post by: Brad Weber on June 15, 2010, 08:59:23 AM
| Mark Simpson wrote on Sun, 13 June 2010 10:05 |
My personal system is getting close to the point where maybe I can start hiring it/me out for live events. |
| Mark Simpson wrote on Tue, 15 June 2010 07:52 |
The 02r96's are out of my price range for a while... What I don't like about the presonus units is the lack of motorized faders.. If I'm going to be using layers, I want the fader positions to reflect the current layer in use, so that 'at a glance' I can see what's going on... And I don't want to have to move the fader a lot, to get to the current fader position to make a minor adjustment... Not to mention, they are even more out of my price range... |
I don't know exactly what you envision doing or what your potential competition is doing and this is getting more into a LAB Lounge rather than Church Sound topic, but if you are planning on doing this as a business then you need to look at the equipment as an investment. That does not mean necessarily having to buy the latest and greatest, but it can mean making sure that whatever you purchase supports the envisioned use, is reliable and is acceptable to your potential clients. It's sometimes not so much what you can afford as it is what is required to be viable from a business perspective or what offers the greatest return on investment. Rather than purchasing based on what you think you can afford now, you may find that a viable business plan means either scaling back your initial goals or scaling up your initial investment. Put simply, if this is really a business venture then buy equipment that makes sense from a business perspective and not just what fits whatever budget you happen to have at the time.
Post by: George S Dougherty on June 15, 2010, 09:36:38 AM
| Lee Buckalew wrote on Mon, 14 June 2010 21:46 |
A typical computer also won't take ambient temps of over 100. I've done shows for a week at a time where it's been 105 - 115 every day. No computers would tolerate the heat of the day where we were. Not even in the shade. That sort of temp requires some cooling. At least dry ice and fans. His, Lee Buckalew Pro Sound Advice, Inc. |
Tell that to the guys who've done week long festival events in that kind of summer heat.
My 32 channel SAC rig typically coasts along in terms of CPU use and the CPU only dissipates 65W at full load. With adequate airflow, 100 degrees will still cool down a 150 degree part. Not as well as 65 degree air will, but it will. With SSD's for your boot drives there's less worry about the heat effects on mechanical parts other than fans.
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 15, 2010, 12:42:19 PM
Possibly a topic for a different thread butI am being told that SSD's actually lose drive space over time, with use. Have you run into this being a problem or seen it having any effect yet?
His,
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Post by: Brian Ehlers on June 15, 2010, 01:23:50 PM
| George S Dougherty wrote on Tue, 15 June 2010 09:36 |
With adequate airflow, 100 degrees will still cool down a 150 degree part. Not as well as 65 degree air will, but it will. |
What is "adequate airflow?" I'm pretty sure that you are not qualified to answer that question. I don't mean that as a slam; I'm saying that you were not the designer of the motherboard, you don't know enough about the thermal properties of the CPU's die, its package, the heatsink, and the fan, and you don't posses the thermal modeling software necessary to guarantee reliable operation. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of that.)
There are two main concerns when running components at high temperatures. First, the timing characteristics (both inside and outside the chip) are affected, generally getting slower. At some point, a critical timing parameter may be missed. The result could be anywhere from an insignificant data error to a complete crash. Second, a component's lifespan is exponentially reduced by high-temperature operation. So your failure may be looming on the horizon.
Just because you've gotten away with it once or multiple times doesn't mean that you, or anyone else, won't have problems the next time. Operating any device outside the manufacturer's recommendations (perhaps more accurately called the engineer's limits) is asking for trouble. If you buy a new sports car whose manufacturer specifies premium fuel, but you decide to run it on 87 octane, because it seems to work fine, you're playing with fire and likely causing damage you won't see until the day it finally breaks.
Please note, my comments are not directed at SAC or PCs but at all electronics. If you use beyond recommendations, it would be wise to have a back-up plan. Actually, this is one area when you could make a strong case for SAC. There are many manufacturers of ruggedized PCs intended for harsh environments. You could create a mixing rig much better suited for hot and dusty use than any mixing console with faders. But your average PC is not intended for such usage. Do you have any idea how much money corporations spend keeping their IT equipment in perfectly air-conditioned rooms?
Post by: Kent Thompson on June 15, 2010, 07:31:49 PM
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/9734/cst-959/Custom_Frozen CPU_Liquid_Cooled_Corsair_Obsidian_800D_Full_Tower_Chassis.h tml?tl=g1c2
Post by: George S Dougherty on June 16, 2010, 01:22:20 AM
| Lee Buckalew wrote on Tue, 15 June 2010 10:42 |
I am not aware of any computers that are rated for ambient air temperatures over 100 degrees but it sounds like there are some that will work. The cooling requirements would be massive. I would be curious to know what the core temperatures are when those systems are running in 110 degree ambient air temperatures. In 75 degree temps most of these systems that I have seen run around 110 - 140 degrees. I would anticipate that, without liquid cooling or some type of AC that the cores, in 110 degree ambient temperatures, would be running over 200 degrees. But, I may be off. Possibly a topic for a different thread butI am being told that SSD's actually lose drive space over time, with use. Have you run into this being a problem or seen it having any effect yet? His, Lee Buckalew Pro Sound Advice, Inc. |
The 65W Core2Duo's will easily run about 100F or lower at normal room temps. They're rated to run up to about 160F. I wouldn't be surprised if they stayed within that range in 110-115F weather. Sure, cooler would be better and I'd be leery of running it outdoors in that kind of weather for a full year but at the cost of CPU's and motherboards, you could replace it annually before it became a major issue.
The newer SSD's have overcome that issue and they don't really lose space, they just don't truly delete things and so the older units would suffer from performance degredation once they ran out of clear space to work with. In a SAC system that'd likely not be a major issue anyway as the amount of writing is limited to session operations, new plugins and upgrades. Given that SAC itself will fit in 5MB and sessions run about 2MB each plus about that for individual scenes, your storage demands aren't very heavy.
The solution to the performance issue is to do a low level format and rewrite all your data to the drive which would be simple enough maintenance.
Post by: George S Dougherty on June 16, 2010, 01:36:37 AM
| Brian Ehlers wrote on Tue, 15 June 2010 11:23 | ||
What is "adequate airflow?" I'm pretty sure that you are not qualified to answer that question. I don't mean that as a slam; I'm saying that you were not the designer of the motherboard, you don't know enough about the thermal properties of the CPU's die, its package, the heatsink, and the fan, and you don't posses the thermal modeling software necessary to guarantee reliable operation. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of that.) There are two main concerns when running components at high temperatures. First, the timing characteristics (both inside and outside the chip) are affected, generally getting slower. At some point, a critical timing parameter may be missed. The result could be anywhere from an insignificant data error to a complete crash. Second, a component's lifespan is exponentially reduced by high-temperature operation. So your failure may be looming on the horizon. Just because you've gotten away with it once or multiple times doesn't mean that you, or anyone else, won't have problems the next time. Operating any device outside the manufacturer's recommendations (perhaps more accurately called the engineer's limits) is asking for trouble. If you buy a new sports car whose manufacturer specifies premium fuel, but you decide to run it on 87 octane, because it seems to work fine, you're playing with fire and likely causing damage you won't see until the day it finally breaks. Please note, my comments are not directed at SAC or PCs but at all electronics. If you use beyond recommendations, it would be wise to have a back-up plan. Actually, this is one area when you could make a strong case for SAC. There are many manufacturers of ruggedized PCs intended for harsh environments. You could create a mixing rig much better suited for hot and dusty use than any mixing console with faders. But your average PC is not intended for such usage. Do you have any idea how much money corporations spend keeping their IT equipment in perfectly air-conditioned rooms? |
Adequate airflow depends heavily on the design and layout of the casing. Most rackmount server cases are designed to move air through them with fan mounts at critical points to exhaust heated air. As I noted in my comment to Lee, yes, this is probably pushing it in terms of thermal capabilities and I'd be leery of running it day in and day out like that but unlike a high-end console, all my replacement parts are relatively cheap, readily available and easy to keep on hand. For about $1600 I could have a complete secondary system on-hand to swap optical cables and bring live. With optical splitting devices I could even have it sitting as a cold spare and my downtime would be as long as it takes to boot.
Having worked in those environments, yes I know exactly how much is spent on cooling, power protection, backup generators, redundant network links and more. It can be a very substantial sum. We had more than a few million worth of gear in the credit union data center I worked at.
Thankfully, a SAC system is a bit of a commodity compared to server grade hardware. I've priced fault-tolerant SAC systems and it can easily be done for less than $2K in parts. The price gets better for a backup system since all you need is the base system and removable drive bays. If you went with MOTU hardware rather than RME optical cards the downtime becomes pretty short since you only have to reconnect a handful of firewire type cables and the host cards are much less expensive than the RME's.
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 09:49:58 AM
| Brad Weber wrote on Tue, 15 June 2010 05:59 |
I don't know exactly what you envision doing or what your potential competition is doing and this is getting more into a LAB Lounge rather than Church Sound topic, but if you are planning on doing this as a business then you need to look at the equipment as an investment. |
This system is built up from left over stuff I've accumulated over the years from previous business attempts, personal bands, ministry, etc.. It is intended first for ministry use... my target customer base would be local county/city sponsored events, weddings church outreaches, Christian youth group events, etc...
| Quote: |
That does not mean necessarily having to buy the latest and greatest, but it can mean making sure that whatever you purchase supports the envisioned use, is reliable and is acceptable to your potential clients. It's sometimes not so much what you can afford as it is what is required to be viable from a business perspective or what offers the greatest return on investment. |
Been there, done that.... Where I live, I am subjected to severe weather, long drives, and higher than normal business costs combined with lower than normal customer base in a very depressed economy.. Survival here is all about doing 'many' things to make ends meet...
I have 'zero' interest in going into debt for this or chasing after the continual war against obsolecense... I have a small system capable of handling maybe 500 people or more in the right conditions... It all works, it is all reliable.. and as opportunity and 'cash' becomes available I plan to 'add to' and 'upgrade' here and there.. largely with used gear sold off by someone else who is stuck in the throws of gear lust, and wants funding for the next latest/greatest technology...
That lusting after the ultimate system s not fun.. been there/done that...
Currently, all I need is to flesh out my monitor system... and some more outboard gear and a couple more vocal mics...
I like the idea of a used 02r because of all the included effects, dynamics, and the ability to expand to more inputs and link to additional mixers down the road... plus that whole 'recall' thing... and the ability to seamlessly integrate it at home with my DAW.. So, I am 'exploring' this possibility...
Ultimately, it will come down to what opportunities God places in my path...
| Quote: |
Rather than purchasing based on what you think you can afford now, you may find that a viable business plan means either scaling back your initial goals or scaling up your initial investment. |
I don't know how I can 'scale' back more than $400-500 for a mixer to replace the current 24ch 4 bus one I already have...
| Quote: |
Put simply, if this is really a business venture then buy equipment that makes sense from a business perspective and not just what fits whatever budget you happen to have at the time. |
LOL.. who said 'anything' about a business venture?.. I have a system that largely collects dust most of the time.. I want to make it work for me some.. First and foremost, this is a hobby/ministry, so whatever I do with it would be 'enjoyable'... I don't want to turn it into a business where I live or die with it's success..
I just want to hire it out a few times a year outside of my using it for my own churches events, and have a little fun making a little extra money to add to the other things I do to keep a roof over my head and food in my belly...
I've been 'investing' in this for more than 35 years.. I'm tired of watching stuff become obsolete before it's even half paid off... and then some other guy answer an add in the paper and get to enjoy my used gear for a fraction of what I paid for it.. From here out, I want to try being 'that guy'...
I make it a regular habit to stop in the pawn shop when I drive by and look to see if anything 'interesting' has shown up there.. I've bought some nice stuff there for a song.. ebay and craigslist are turning out to be great resources as well...
This is not to be a formal business venture, just some extra money on the side for doing something that I get satisfaction from... and an opportunity to meet more people...
Post by: Brad Weber on June 16, 2010, 10:45:16 AM
If all you can afford is a $500 mixer then that is fine, just please don't start trying to lead clients to believe that what you offer is comparable to what others offer when it is not. And if you plan to charge anything then do address the issues such as a business license, taxes, insurance, etc. as those are not only there to protect both you and your clients, but are typically legally required.
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on June 16, 2010, 12:13:57 PM
| Lee Buckalew wrote on Tue, 15 June 2010 04:46 |
A typical computer also won't take ambient temps of over 100. |
I beg to differ. I've got desktops of all ages working in client industrial environments where 100 degree+ F air temperatures are pretty routine.
While operating at higher temperatures naturally reduces lifespan, most electronics are pretty happy at 110-120 F actual surface temperature.
The most temperature sensitive component in a PC might be the hard drive, which is speced for operating temperatures up to 60 degrees C, or 140 degrees F. Of course you have to honor this spec in actual use given that it generates a fair amount of heat on its own.
Operating at higher temperatures almost always hurts reliability.
If you go to places where temperatures in country are 100 to 120 F, you see a lot more attention paid to things like cooling fans.
The most common temperature-related failures I see are of laptops that lock up or reboot themselves when the ambient temperatures are high. Often the cause is a marginal hard drive.
Obviously, you want things to run as close to 70 degrees or so as possible. But if you've got to do what you've got to do, going over 100 degrees F should not be a big problem.
Note that metal and plastic gets nasty to touch for long when it gets much above 110 F, and by 120 F you probably don't want to touch it routinely.
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 12:36:47 PM
| Brad Weber wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 07:45 |
Sorry if I misunderstood your comment "My personal system is getting close to the point where maybe I can start hiring it/me out for live events." That made it sound like you did plan to do this as a business. While you can call it what you want, if you are charging for the service, much less profiting from it, then it is a business. That means that clients should be able to expect an appropriate level of quality and professionalism as well as your providing proper insurance coverage, having proper licensing, paying property tax on your business property (e.g. your system), etc. If all you can afford is a $500 mixer then that is fine, just please don't start trying to lead clients to believe that what you offer is comparable to what others offer when it is not. And if you plan to charge anything then do address the issues such as a business license, taxes, insurance, etc. as those are not only there to protect both you and your clients, but are typically legally required. |
LOL.. Gimme a break!!!.... There is a level of service for every level of client and need...
Not everything is a full blown concert, nor can every client afford to pay for such... The $400-500 I might charge (or in some cases just expenses plus a love offering) for a days full of work would be more than worth it to many to have the sound system 'handled'...
If you feel that a used 02r or a mackie SR 24/4 is not up to the level that can be used to 'charge a fee' for, then don't do it.. But I'm not gonna get caught up in the gear snob BS.. Been there, done that... I'm just gonna used good ole backwoods common sense.. Try it some time.. It's an amazing concept!
But I tell you the truth, there are a lot of small systems out there being rented hired out that offer a 'heck of a lot' less than I do, and the clients are very happy to have hired them.. Because it beats the heck out of hollering through a bull horn! Or going out and spending 10G on mains, amps, subs, processors, cables and mics, a stage and everything else, don't it?
Have you 'always' been this picky? Straining at gnats? Do you work for the federal govt or what? Sounds like the same mentality... Lemme guess, you're that kid who was afraid to step on the crack, for fear your mom's back would get broken... I bet you were the window monitor in class weren't you?
And those putting on the event are responsible for any insurance or licenses required.. anything else is easily covered under my existing business license (which is not even legally required out here in rural shasta country, just a simple DBA) and contractors license (which I plan to restore, once the economy allows)..
How many people do you know that go out and get 'insurance' for their 5G wedding or their easter sunrise service for their own small church?...
Are you this 'perfect' at following the law in every danged area of your 'own' life? Ever throw a spray paint can out? How about a battery.. Well, you've just broken EPA laws? Ever went over the speed limit? Forgot to put on your turn signal? Off with your head! Are all the steps at your house within 1/8" of equal height? Ever broke a fluorescent bulb? Did you call Haz Mat when it happened? If you've been a good boy in every area of your life such as those mentioned above, I bet you're a real pill to be around... Did you ever go help an old person clean up their property, and when they offered you 20 bucks for a days work, insisting you take it, were you racked with guilt in that you operated your 'business' without the proper insurance and licensing for the dang day?
Some of you dudes are wound up way to dang tight! It's a wonder you have 'any' friends or are able to get 'anything' done at all! When you see a hurting friend that needs comforting and a compassionate ear, do you sit there and lecture him that his tail light is out and how he is immoral for driving that way? Or is it possible for your legalistic ass to ever overlook an infraction of the codebook?
Am I being a bit sarcastic here? You betcha!.. Because the complaint I'm hearing is utterly ridiculous!
Is this free America, or communist China for crying out loud? Why is it necessary to turn every conversation into a contest to see who can point out the most minutia of human weakness in those involved?
I don't know where some of you anally retentive types live, but I live here on fallen earth!
DAMN! LIGHTEN UP ALREADY!
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 12:46:14 PM
Post by: Dick Rees on June 16, 2010, 12:57:48 PM
Sorry you're in such pain. Please consider local professional help for your problems.
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 16, 2010, 01:24:38 PM
Can it be done, yes. Does it take massively more airflow than most systems are designed for, yes. I would suggest monitoring critical temperature areas constantly under these conditions.
Typical airflow increases to maintain mid range temps for a computer operating at 100 - 105 degree's would be to increase from below 100 CFM for the typical desktop computer to well in excess of 300 CFM. Precise figures would require precise maximum BTU and heat sink area knowledge.
If you could utilize a liquid cooled unit and provide some cooling or at least turbulent high volume, low velocity air movement for the "radiator" this would be optimum.
I have not seen anyone recording in these kind of temperatures without being inside a cooled van or motorhome.
Live is a different story altogether but requires careful attention to cooling if you want things to last.
His,
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Post by: Robert Whittemore on June 16, 2010, 01:36:21 PM
| Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 12:57 |
Mr Simpson..... Sorry you're in such pain. Please consider local professional help for your problems. |
LOL! Seriously, if you are coming to this forum for help and opinions...don't get all riled up when someone tries to actually help you. You were given great advice and chose to go off the deep end instead of saying, "thank you".
Post by: Robert Whittemore on June 16, 2010, 01:37:45 PM
| Mark Simpson wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 12:46 |
PS.. I report 'every' dime I make, even accounting for returned bottles and cans! So don't 'even' go there! |
Once again...you were not accused of wrongdoing. You take everything as an attack. Relax.
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 01:54:38 PM
| Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 09:57 |
Mr Simpson..... Sorry you're in such pain. Please consider local professional help for your problems. |
Christians recommending shrinks (instead of the Lord).. nice!
Yeah, I'm a pain because I find it ridiculous that when I ask about mixers for setting up a little hobby system for occasional hire, I get lectured first about the ethics of what I offer vs what I charge (of which Mr. Weber 'really' had no idea of what I have and what I'm thinking about charging, nor to whom), then when I explain he made a 'wrong assumption' I get lectured about taxes, insurance, and licenses instead...
So if I am a 'pain' because I get bothered at all the self righteous 'lecturing' from a (very) few around here about crossing every 'T' and dotting every 'I' from pharisitical zealots who themselves can not 'possibly' stand up to the same scrutiny they dish out, then yeah.. "GUILTY AS CHARGED!"
And I can't help hear all the charges ring in my ears of 'hypocrisy' and 'legalism' and lack of grace I here from those I witness to, when the subject of the church comes up... when I have to deal with the same mentality form a select few here... I can definitely understand their complaints! Law first, grace second (if at all), right?
Why don't you do a poll and see just how many others around here, when they read my original comments, their first reaction was to rend their garments and rub ashes on their forehead, exclaiming Oh my gosh, this guy might actually be doing some sort of 'work' without first having checked with our class monitors and showing his papers as proof he has all the proper licenses and insurance and what not..
Yeah, that and the automatic assumption that I 'didn't' was noted as well..
Now, if you don't mind, I'll see if I can find some poor sot broken down on the side of the highway, and tell him I'd lie to help him, but I don't have the proper insurance... Then I'll go find a homeless guy and offer him five bucks and a hot meal on the condition he proves to me that he reports them both to the IRS as gifts...
Something tells me, that if Mr. Weber, or yourself were homeless, and in need of work, and someone offered you a few bucks to come and do some work around their house, that your/his first question would not be, "Do you have liability and workers comp insurance?"
Or maybe it would be...
Believe it or not, some of us inferior types are just trying to get through life the best we can, so it'd be nice if you perfect ones that have already attained it, can show a little 'patience' and not be so quick on the trigger... You know, that whole fruit of the Spirit thing?..
The problem with pointing your fingers at someone, is that the other 'three' are pointing back at you... If someone feels they can dish it out, they should be prepared to take it as well...
My prayer, "Lord, have mercy on me, the sinner." He can, why can't some here?
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 16, 2010, 01:58:29 PM
| Quote: |
LOL.. Gimme a break!!!.... There is a level of service for every level of client and need... Not everything is a full blown concert, nor can every client afford to pay for such... The $400-500 I might charge (or in some cases just expenses plus a love offering) for a days full of work would be more than worth it to many to have the sound system 'handled'... |
Agreed.
| Quote: |
But I tell you the truth, there are a lot of small systems out there being rented hired out that offer a 'heck of a lot' less than I do, and the clients are very happy to have hired them.. Because it beats the heck out of hollering through a bull horn! |
This is true and it's why Brad said
| Quote: |
ust please don't start trying to lead clients to believe that what you offer is comparable to what others offer when it is not. |
Many of us see this when folks compare a 24 channel console and a 24 channel console but one is a Midas and the other is a Mackie. Not apples and apples. As long as gear is correctly represented, no problem.
| Quote: |
How many people do you know that go out and get 'insurance' for their 5G wedding or their easter sunrise service for their own small church?... |
All churches that I personally know of have liability policies that cover all of these types of events. As far as weddings, most venues insurance covers but, if you are privately contracted and one of your cables trips someone and they break an ankle, you may be liable. This is something many smaller contractors struggle with even if it's not a requirement. My recording partner's company has considerable insurance to cover a mic accidentally damaging a Stradivarius or some other multi million dollar instrument, this seemed a better option than having the company go bankrupt but, only after we had reached a certain size.
I personally have relatives who hired a local handyman to paint part of their house. He needed the money, they were helping out somebody in the community, etc. This man hit his head on the 150 year old basement doorframe that was undersized by current code (although, nothing required it to be larger due to it's age). He required stitches, etc. An attorney got ahold of this and the man won the case against my nearly 90 year old great grandfather. It cost him 10's of thousands of dollars because he tried to help somebody out and the guy didn't have the insurance he should have so, the liability transferred to my great grandfather.
Point is, we need to be careful even when helping out somebody because unforeseen problems can create huge unintended consequences.
His,
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 02:10:19 PM
| Robert Whittemore wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 10:37 | ||
Once again...you were not accused of wrongdoing. You take everything as an attack. Relax. |
I don't take 'everything' as an attack.. I'm just answering back the 'obvious' insinuations...
I understand the limitations of the medium.. but I am just very sensitive about arrogance and self righteousness, especially from those who bear His Name, because of the effect it has on others who are watching... Am I 'overreacting'? Possibly, but I'm not 'wrongly' reacting...
As much as 'following every law of man to a tee' is the pet peeve of some here, Christians exhibiting self righteous legalism is a pet peeve of mine, if not more so... It's obviously an oil and water dynamic going on here...
And I 'am' relaxed.... That I'm not 'too' is an assumption... And as harsh as my responses are, I do not let the sun set on my anger, and I do not hold grudges... But whenever this sort of stuff is leveled at me, I will 'definitely' point it out...
So, I've made my point.. Time to move on...
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 02:19:17 PM
| Lee Buckalew wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 10:58 | ||||||||
Agreed.
This is true and it's why Brad said
Many of us see this when folks compare a 24 channel console and a 24 channel console but one is a Midas and the other is a Mackie. Not apples and apples. As long as gear is correctly represented, no problem.
All churches that I personally know of have liability policies that cover all of these types of events. As far as weddings, most venues insurance covers but, if you are privately contracted and one of your cables trips someone and they break an ankle, you may be liable. This is something many smaller contractors struggle with even if it's not a requirement. My recording partner's company has considerable insurance to cover a mic accidentally damaging a Stradivarius or some other multi million dollar instrument, this seemed a better option than having the company go bankrupt but, only after we had reached a certain size. I personally have relatives who hired a local handyman to paint part of their house. He needed the money, they were helping out somebody in the community, etc. This man hit his head on the 150 year old basement doorframe that was undersized by current code (although, nothing required it to be larger due to it's age). He required stitches, etc. An attorney got ahold of this and the man won the case against my nearly 90 year old great grandfather. It cost him 10's of thousands of dollars because he tried to help somebody out and the guy didn't have the insurance he should have so, the liability transferred to my great grandfather. Point is, we need to be careful even when helping out somebody because unforeseen problems can create huge unintended consequences. His, Lee Buckalew Pro Sound Advice, Inc. |
Lee, that becomes more of an issue if you actually have assets worth a lawyers time.. A person can walk past your house and trip over their own foot and the same thing can happen... If your house is worth taking (you have enough equity in it), then you have to weigh whether you want to insure it or not against all the people of this world who are not controlled by the Spirit of grace.. or if you owe money on the house, the bank will likely 'require' such insurance anyways..
At some point, you have to use good judgment in whom you want to do business with, and then trust God, that no matter what the world throws against you, He has your back..
I can not deal with the stress of worrying about all the things the world worries about... It is full of sinful and greedy people, I can't help that...
I just have to use common sense to approach each situation individually. taking into account where I and those I interact with are coming from...
Thanks for not piling on....
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 02:26:15 PM
| Robert Whittemore wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 10:36 | ||
LOL! Seriously, if you are coming to this forum for help and opinions...don't get all riled up when someone tries to actually help you. You were given great advice and chose to go off the deep end instead of saying, "thank you". |
Okay, thank you for implying that I am misrepresenting myself, and skirting business and tax laws, when I asked technical questions about a certain line of mixers...
Is that better?
Post by: Robert Whittemore on June 16, 2010, 02:26:16 PM
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 02:32:48 PM
| Lee Buckalew wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 10:58 |
Many of us see this when folks compare a 24 channel console and a 24 channel console but one is a Midas and the other is a Mackie. Not apples and apples. As long as gear is correctly represented, no problem. |
LOL.. How many couples or small churches/ministries hiring a $500 a day sound guy/system would even know the difference?
Most of them, if I said I had a 24ch board, they'd say "What's that mean?" They 'maybe' would have heard of Mackie.. Midas, they would not have...
It'd be nice to own a Midas, and be able to advertise as such, but really, that sort of investment is only justified when also having the rest of the goods to go with it, and at that point, then 'yes' we are talking about a bonafied business venture...
Either that, or someone who 'really' has the addiction bad...
Post by: Robert Whittemore on June 16, 2010, 02:34:56 PM
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 02:36:20 PM
| Robert Whittemore wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 11:26 |
At least we can now all admit that it is a "business venture"... |
I suppose that would depend on your meaning behind the word 'WE'...
I 'definitely' don't agree to 'that'... But you might get together with Brad and Dick and agree on 'that'.. But of course, just as is the case when several get together and all agree that "There is no God".. what you 'agree' on, has absolutely 'no bearing' on what I am actually 'doing' or what is actually 'true'...
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 02:40:42 PM
| Robert Whittemore wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 11:34 |
I think you are right. The new law states that if using Mackie equipment...it does not constitute as running a business. |
HaHa!
There are all kinds of levels of gear snobs.. I suppose one of the lowest levels would apply such a standard to "Berhinger Mixers"
A person that would apply such a label to Mackie Mixers is probably somewhat higher up the snob scale (depending on who you ask)
So, evidently, you are not at the absolute bottom of the scale, just slightly above it...
(They need some more emoticons around here.. like the two little smilies dueling it out with swords)
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 02:58:44 PM
Suing me, would be an exercise in futility... I have nothing worth suing for... Kind of a blood out of rock deal...
LOL...
Post by: Lee Buckalew on June 16, 2010, 03:05:40 PM
| Quote: |
Lee, I am more concerned with whether or not the church or org has insurance that covers 'my' stuff should someone run into it with a truck or some kids in their youth group decide they'd like to suddenly 'own' what I have, than someone suing me because they tripped on my mic cords.. Suing me, would be an exercise in futility... I have nothing worth suing for... Kind of a blood out of rock deal... |
Just write it into your agreements/contracts that way.
Don't forget that you can be held liable against future earnings. It's all a game of cost vs. benefit and often the cost does outweigh the benefit for smaller business'.
His,
Lee Buckalew
Pro Sound Advice, Inc.
Post by: Andy Peters on June 16, 2010, 03:06:58 PM
| Mark Simpson wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 11:10 |
... but I am just very sensitive about arrogance and self righteousness ... |
Wow, Homer, you need to take a look in the mirror.
-a
Post by: Robert Whittemore on June 16, 2010, 03:08:19 PM
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 03:44:10 PM
| Andy Peters wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 12:06 | ||
Wow, Homer, you need to take a look in the mirror. -a |
I do every morning (well most mornings, anyways).. I open it up, and pray that my heart is prepared by my Creator to receive what it shows me... Then I look intently into it, and try and remember what I saw when I walk away... to the best of my ability...
You 'do' understand what the words 'arrogance' and 'self righteousness' mean do you not?
While I may be accurately accused of many things here (to one degree or another), and in my life as a whole, I don't think those two words are amongst the first people would use against me.. You will be hard pressed to make that argument from my discussions here.. For I have not held anyone to any standard I myself am not holding myself to.. I have not condemned anyone for 'breaking the law' nor judged anyone.. Or even 'implied' moral or character issues with anyone here...
I have only reacted to implications by those that I am somehow immoral or skirting the law of men, or not crossing all my 'T's or dotting all my 'I's.. Whether it is wise or Christ like to react to these implications is an argument that perhaps can be raised against me, the idea that I myself have been making such implications against others is patently false...
I 'have defended' myself, which in itself is an issue I am dealing with.. Turning the other cheek is more difficult than it seems.. for when I attempt to defend myself against accusation made against me, all it does is to invite others with their own 'inclination to judge' to pile on too... such as yourself...
BTW, your use of the word 'Homer' here suggest that you perhaps have some serious issues you need to deal with before you deal with mine...
The point I've been trying to make in pointing these things out, is that there are a 'few' here that seem to have a really hard time about attempting to 'strain out gnats, while swallowing camels' in the process...
And while 'yes' I do not like them trying to strain out the gnats in my life by bringing up character issues that have nothing to do with the question I asked or the things discussed, those doing the straining like even less the fact that I point out their camel swallowing...
Seeing as you asked....
Post by: Robert Whittemore on June 16, 2010, 03:51:52 PM
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 04:07:42 PM
| Lee Buckalew wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 12:05 | ||
Just write it into your agreements/contracts that way. Don't forget that you can be held liable against future earnings. It's all a game of cost vs. benefit and often the cost does outweigh the benefit for smaller business'. His, Lee Buckalew Pro Sound Advice, Inc. |
I'm 'rapidly' approaching the golden years, and my time (as far as I can see, anyways) of aggressively engaging in the rat race is drawing to a close.. I am really looking forward to lowering my lifestyle expectations, simplifying my life, and just getting along doing things I enjoy.. like fishing (although, the 'lovers of laws' apparently are making 'that' against the law here too...) and fixing up my house (lots of new laws telling me what I 'cant' do there these days as well)...
I just don't have the 'energy' anymore to fret about all the things some guys do... It's a lot of work... Because, I have recently learned the hard way, that no matter how much you work, and how hard you try to protect yourself against the world, things beyond your control can come along at any moment and turn it all upside down anyways..
It's better to just be content and trust in God to work out all the details... As a recent president who was also the subject of all sorts of accusations liked to say.. "Don't worry, be happy!"
Yes, I could be the unfortunate defendant in a lawsuit because some klutz can't be responsible for watching where they walk, and they could try and attach future income till the cows come home..
But I could also get all the insurance in the world, and then a plane falls out of the sky and lands on my head.. Why worry about it?..
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 04:14:18 PM
| Robert Whittemore wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 12:51 |
The problem is that no one here has ever made accusations against you. Everytime people mention legal or moral issues you act as if they already accused you of breaking them. No one did that. They just mentioned them and you go off the deep end. When advice is asked on anything it is wise to make sure the person asking the question or seeking advice is aware of any legal or moral ramifications. That is all anyone has tried to do here. |
They raise them in response to my describing my situation.. and I am to think that the two things aren't in any ways related?
Okay...
Just understand, that 'your' opinion of what is implied or is not implied, is not any more valid than 'mine'.. especially seeing as you are an uninvolved third party.. and neither made the comments (and can't know the heart behind the original comment), nor were the target of them (and can not know how they sounded to those receiving them).. But you 'do' just 'love' to stick your nose into others arguments, and as such, are completely guilty of causing them to go on longer than they otherwise would have... no issues there, right? LOL
Post by: Robert Whittemore on June 16, 2010, 04:16:32 PM
Post by: Dick Rees on June 16, 2010, 04:17:01 PM
| Lee Buckalew wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 15:05 | ||
Just write it into your agreements/contracts that way. Don't forget that you can be held liable against future earnings. It's all a game of cost vs. benefit and often the cost does outweigh the benefit for smaller business'. His, Lee Buckalew Pro Sound Advice, Inc. |
I find the above highlighted statement quite remarkable. It essentially places a higher value on property over the well being of a brother or sister.
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 04:47:29 PM
| Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 13:17 | ||||
I find the above highlighted statement quite remarkable. It essentially places a higher value on property over the well being of a brother or sister. |
If that person is a sue happy lawyer or a gold digger trying to use me as a conduit to bilk an insurance co out of cash, and is trying to make me responsible for 'their' clumsiness, then I guess it does...
You can place 'your' priorities wherever you want, and I will not question you for it.. However, when you question 'me' for where I place mine, 'then' you will likely find I respond in a way that you will 'also' find to be 'remarkable'...
Life is a very messy minefield.. If you haven't figured that out by now, then you are either very young and idealistic.. or aren't paying attention and have thus far not had to personally make decisions where you have to choose between several paths where 'all' of them have limitations and/or pitfalls.. and all I have to say to that, if it is the case.. is 'your' life is anything but typical, and you might want to just be extremely thankful for that as opposed to looking down on others (virtually everyone else) who have to make hard choices over the course of their lives......
Either that, or you're just in the habit of extending more grace to yourself than to others...
Post by: Andy Peters on June 16, 2010, 05:24:03 PM
| Mark Simpson wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 13:47 |
Life is a very messy minefield.. If you haven't figured that out by now, then you are either very young and idealistic.. or aren't paying attention and have thus far not had to personally make decisions where you have to choose between several paths where 'all' of them have limitations and/or pitfalls.. and all I have to say to that, if it is the case.. is 'your' life is anything but typical, and you might want to just be extremely thankful for that as opposed to looking down on others (virtually everyone else) who have to make hard choices over the course of their lives...... Either that, or you're just in the habit of extending more grace to yourself than to others... |
Jessica, you're such the drama queen. You act as if you're the only person ever who has any any tsuris in his life. Your incessant whinging simply informs us that you've a got a victim complex a mile wide. Man up and get over yourself.
-a
Post by: Mark Simpson on June 16, 2010, 05:49:30 PM
| Andy Peters wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 14:24 |
Jessica, you're such the drama queen. You act as if you're the only person ever who has any any tsuris in his life. Your incessant whinging simply informs us that you've a got a victim complex a mile wide. Man up and get over yourself. -a |
Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.. I won't begrudge you that.. But again, that has no bearing on what is true... It's just 'your' opinion..
I'll tell you another thing you can 'know' about me from all this.. That I'm not one to hold secret resentments about people and then go behind their backs and gossip to others about them..
If I have an issue with you, I'll tell you straight up to your face.. then we can have it out, settle the issue and shake hands.. Going on from there with an understanding of 'exactly' what the other thinks about the situation... That's 'my' version of 'manning up'.. Evidently 'yours' is name calling and rock throwing.. If that's the kind of 'man' you want to be, I will not begrudge you of that either.. It's entirely your choice... I do well enough to make my own choices...
Ask yourself what it is you are you trying to accomplish here by sticking your nose into this with childish name calling? What do stand to gain from it?..
How old are you Andy, if you don't mind my asking?
Post by: Tom Young on June 17, 2010, 06:28:16 AM
Post by: Dick Rees on June 17, 2010, 11:39:26 AM
| Andy Peters wrote on Wed, 16 June 2010 17:24 | ||
Jessica, you're such the drama queen. You act as if you're the only person ever who has any any tsuris in his life. Your incessant whinging simply informs us that you've a got a victim complex a mile wide. Man up and get over yourself. -a |
Just trying my hand at making a clickable link......
Edit: Learn something new every day.
Post by: Don Sullivan on July 10, 2010, 08:51:54 PM
BTW, My 03D is for sale on Craigslist for $500.00 with ADAT card if anyone is interested.
http://cleveland.craigslist.org/msg/1831865393.html
Post by: Tim Padrick on July 12, 2010, 02:57:55 AM
| Mark Simpson wrote on Tue, 15 June 2010 06:52 |
What I don't like about the presonus units is the lack of motorized faders.. If I'm going to be using layers, I want the fader positions to reflect the current layer in use, so that 'at a glance' I can see what's going on... And I don't want to have to move the fader a lot, to get to the current fader position to make a minor adjustment... |
The Presonus has only one layer, so unless one is changing scenes during active audio, the lack of flying faders is not much of a negative.
Post by: Arnold B. Krueger on July 12, 2010, 07:07:52 AM
| Tim Padrick wrote on Mon, 12 July 2010 07:57 | ||
The Presonus has only one layer, so unless one is changing scenes during active audio, the lack of flying faders is not much of a negative. |
I can see where not having the faders set themselves properly when a new scene is brought up is a big disadvantage. We have that situation on our lighting board, and it can make things more confusing than they need to be.