danny8787 wrote on Mon, 13 December 2010 22:50 |
= Any suggestion will be appericiate! |
Danny Ryu wrote on Mon, 13 December 2010 22:50 |
Live sound will be for church(about 200 seats = 3000sqft) and height is about 14ft. I have come up with 2different speakers. Side(right and left) we are going to use JBL MRX525 for loud speaker and on the center, we are going to flying QSC K10 speaker for Pastor's speech speaker. I was thinking that, would it be a good idea to put center speaker to use as speech? Is there any other speakers for center flying speakers that you guys recommend? The church place is not that big, 3000sqft and 14ft height. We are going to have all the instrument will be playing. Any suggestion will be appericiate! |
Sidney Pilien wrote on Tue, 14 December 2010 23:41 |
The guitar center sales guy is crazy. |
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The K12 is a better choice for sides but still, you don't need all those inputs. |
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If you add subs, you will need to budget the amp(s) also |
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For the square footage, the bass amp is all you need. Miking drums and all the instruments will be too loud and bury the vocals. Just feed the keyboard and go from there. |
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Ar you buying retail? Online is way cheaper. |
Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 00:21 |
Although the jbls and the qscs are alright speakers, neither is really suited to this environment. Jbls are probably a bit too much and the qscs (can they even be flown?) will require two cable runs and are a bit too easy for anyone to tamper with. |
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In most cases I would not recomend using powered speakers for an installed system. |
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My thought would be to fly 3 yamaha c115v (15" tops, and they do make them with flyware) as a center cluster and power them with one chanel of a crown xti2000. Use the other channel to power a yamaha cw218v (2x 18" sub) sitting on the ground somewhere. The xti 2000 has dsp so you won't need to buy a crossover and you'll have some extra control over your system. Granted everything will be in mono but you'll come in well under $3500 and those yamahas sound (and look) really nice for what they cost. The company I work for bought 4 pairs a few years ago as something cheap to throw around and they have exceeded all of our expectations. Should be more than enough power, if it's too much you can downgrade to 3 c112v(12" tops), 1 cw118v (18" sub) and an xti 1000 |
Brad Weber wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 07:23 |
And on a detail, you mentioned that the any flying would be handled by someone who works in the PA field. They may be qualified but not just by working in sound reinforcement. Because it is a potential safety issue, flying speakers should always be handled by someone with the proper rigging experience and knowledge as well as the appropriate liability insurance, etc. to protect the church. |
Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 10:49 |
Gary.... I'd be a little cautious in posting dollar amounts for folks. Some areas have higher rates than others. Plus the installation cost is the wild card. There's no way to tell how many hours it will take to do the job. Bidding a fixed cost for labor without a thorough on-site consultation is a quick way for the installer to "take a bath". For most of the install work I've been involved in the time/labor is the make it or break it issue in the budget. DR |
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For most of the install work I've been involved in the time/labor is the make it or break it issue in the budget. |
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I am not sure that particular JBL would have been the best choice for any church install I have done. |
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As for the QSC is is a fine choice for an instal, (and if you are are going to be po-po on a speaker you should know the details about it- yes it can be flown) |
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You do know some of the most high end installation cabinets are powered right? Meyer (the entire line) and JBL venue series to name a few. In most cases power speakers are a fine choice for an installation. There are some factors that may cause you not to go that route, but to say one should avoid powered speakers in most installation environments is just wrong. |
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We don't know the dimensions of the room, so why would you suggest 3? |
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Why is going to a 12" a "downgrade"? That is a more appropriate speaker choice for most churches and often sounds better than a 15" box in a HOW application. |
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You questioned the QSCs ability to be flown (even though they are designed to be), and then suggested a speaker that can not be flown. |
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if you are are going to be po-po on a speaker you should know the details about it- yes it can be flown |
Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 12:20 |
he asked for an inexpensive and easy solution and I gave it to him. |
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Why are we all stuck on qsc gear? Do we not consider multiple options? |
Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 12:20 | ||
In a properly flown center cluster, 3 cabinets can be aligned to cover almost any shape. |
Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 12:20 | ||
I guess downgrade wasn't the word I was looking for; I simply meant a less powerful and less expensive system. |
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While placing overlap in aisles or being able to work around excessive coverage may provide some leeway, in general multiple boxes will only properly array to provide one specific pattern and that is if they array well at all. We don't know what overall coverage or pattern is involved much less how many of a particular speaker might be appropriate in order to provide that coverage. |
Danny Ryu wrote on Mon, 13 December 2010 22:50 |
Live sound will be for church(about 200 seats = 3000sqft) and height is about 14ft. I have come up with 2different speakers. Side(right and left) we are going to use JBL MRX525 for loud speaker and on the center, we are going to flying QSC K10 speaker for Pastor's speech speaker. I was thinking that, would it be a good idea to put center speaker to use as speech? Is there any other speakers for center flying speakers that you guys recommend? The church place is not that big, 3000sqft and 14ft height. We are going to have all the instrument will be playing. Any suggestion will be appericiate! |
Jeff Johnson wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 14:08 |
I agree, it's just that I find that three boxes normally ends up being the appropriate number. By no means am I saying that that is the best option for this space, it is simply a workable solution. We aren't talking a $100,000 install here, just a couple speakers in a small church. |
Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 16:14 |
The separate speaker for the Pastor makes sense. |
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As to the need for a sub......I'm old school and prefer for the bass to carry the room on its own. It doesn't take very much bass in a room like that to be too much. As long as the bassist is a cooperative person you'll be OK. |
Gary Creely wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 17:11 | ||||
Help me understand why this makes sense? Dannys got $3500 to get new speakers, so good advice is to suggest a solution that requires the room to be covered twice?
The bass Guitar is not the only instrument that would benefit from a sub: Keys, guitars, and kick drums would also be likely candidates. |
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 16 December 2010 04:21 |
Our church size is 44 x 57 |
Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21 |
Our church size is 44 x 57 |
Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21 |
People will start finish up the ceiling soon and I will see how the sound feedback goes. Not sure now.... |
Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 23:21 |
Some people keep mentioning about small church, and no need big loud speaker. But why can't small church play loud music and full instrument? |
Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 15 December 2010 17:29 | ||||||
"I'd like to help you out. Which way'd you come in?" ....Groucho Marx |
Brad Weber wrote on Thu, 16 December 2010 08:20 | ||||||
Is that 44' wide and 57' deep or 57' wide and 44' deep? Is that the overall size or the size of the listener area? Might it be something like an overall 57' deep space with a 10' deep stage and then 3' before the seating? Are there any specifics like having a thrust stage with seating to the sides of the stage?
How do you plan to get cable from the stage to the mix position and from there to the amps or speakers? Do you have conduit and raceways in place or are you going to have to tear open brand new walls and ceilings in order to run cables? Is the sheetrock ceiling section over the stage where it would have to be torn open to hang any speakers? Do you have power at the stage for all the instruments? What about at the stage or ceiling for any powered speakers or does that alone eliminate that option? How much power do you have at the mix position and would that also be where any amplifiers would be located?
No reason it can't, the issue is really just dealing with a physically smaller space. This means not only differences in how loud the speakers may have to be to get the desired levels to the people furthest away but also things like how much the sound directly from the drums, amps, monitors, etc. on stage may affect the listeners. Another aspect of this relates to the issues noted above, when you want to support a high energy, contemporary service then that can affect the space beyond just the speakers and amps. In order to achieve the most successful result then along with having an appropriate audio system you need to make sure you have the necessary stage and tech space, accommodate all the related cabling, address the associated power, make sure you have appropriate provisions for the required speaker system and provide a proper acoustical environment. These factors are just as important regardless of the physical size or number of members. If you have not addressed these and the space is almost complete then that may drive some of the decisions for the sound system. These are just a few examples of how this might be a factor. If you don't have power at the ceiling or sufficient power at the stage then powered speakers are probably not an option. If the ceiling where any speakers would be flown is sheetrock and that is already installed then flying speakers may be impractical or at least more difficult and expensive. If you only have a single 20A power circuit at the mix position and that is where any amplifiers have to go then that may limit what you can do as far as amplification. The point is that once a room is at the point yours apparently is you often end up having to respond to rather than integrate with the rest of the space. I'm not saying that you can't potentially obtain a good result but some of the sound system issues you are addressing may be greatly driven by other factors. |
Danny Ryu wrote on Mon, 20 December 2010 23:07 |
Sorry, here is the pic of the chapel floor plan. I hope this will help.... |
Danny Ryu wrote on Fri, 24 December 2010 17:21 |
Thanks Gary. What speaker would you recommend? I was thinking about QSC KW122 instead of K12... But I realize it will be hard for me to turn on/off the speaker everytime. What do you think about 2*EAW FR129z with QSC RMX 2450 amp? I also ran couple of (100ft)2C Microphone cable on the top of the ceiling. does 2C Microphone cable is okay to use as speaker cable? since the cable is pretty long,100ft ran. I am going to buy speakon connector and neutrik XLR connector. Should I use 2*2C Microphone cable to use as one cable? |
Danny Ryu wrote on Fri, 24 December 2010 17:21 |
Thanks Gary. What speaker would you recommend? I was thinking about QSC KW122 instead of K12... But I realize it will be hard for me to turn on/off the speaker everytime. What do you think about 2*EAW FR129z with QSC RMX 2450 amp? I also ran couple of (100ft)2C Microphone cable on the top of the ceiling. does 2C Microphone cable is okay to use as speaker cable? since the cable is pretty long,100ft ran. I am going to buy speakon connector and neutrik XLR connector. Should I use 2*2C Microphone cable to use as one cable? |
Danny Ryu wrote on Sun, 26 December 2010 02:02 |
Oh... I bought 1000ft spool cable... What if the 12GA cable does not have ground shielded? is it okay? And as far as the price, they are pretty expensive.. This is something I never know about it. We currently using microphone cable as speaker cable. Wow... I learned something! I will probably have to buy 12GA cable and re-run the wire. And important thing that, our budget is little chagned.. We probably have to get the subwoofer sometime next month. We might just going to buy the 2 main speaker... I guess we might just going to get EAW FR series.. and we will add sub next month. 12" should be loud enough to cover the drum or any acoustic sound? If the speaker could not cover the drum sound, then I will let drummer use rose stick...lol |
Danny Ryu wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 22:01 |
Thanks Gary! You mention the 12GA speaker cable Instaed of buying expensive speaker cable, can I use any 12GA cable? |
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If not, we will have to run a extra speaker cable for the sub later. |
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And I ordered 7 x 2female microphone wall plate. I will use about 120ft cable for all the wall plate to mixer. 120ft is okay to use? Do I need to use any repeater? |
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And I ordered 7 x 2female microphone wall plate. I will use about 120ft cable for all the wall plate to mixer. 120ft is okay to use? Do I need to use any repeater? |
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:22 |
http://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/microphone-cable/60m2-02 1th.htm That is the microphone cable that I have bought. Seems okay to me... So I will run this cable this weekend. Could you tell me, what will be the reason not to fly sub? There is no place to put the sub in the floor, thats why I come up with the flying idea.... will that be really serious problem to flying the sub? I've seen some church flying the sub...(really high ceiling..) Thank you! |
Sidney Pilien wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 01:06 | ||
WHOA!!!!!!! Are you going to run this cable as a snake run from stage to sound room? If so that's totally the wrong cable! This is for mic and instrument and not for snake run. What you need is multi pair snake cable such as this http://www.fullcompass.com/product/251795.html |
Sidney Pilien wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 01:06 |
And as for flying speakers, especially subs, if not by a certified rigger you're asking for huge liability issues. I think Brad can address this better. |
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:22 |
http://www.cablewholesale.com/specs/microphone-cable/60m2-02 1th.htm That is the microphone cable that I have bought. Seems okay to me... So I will run this cable this weekend. |
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Could you tell me, what will be the reason not to fly sub? There is no place to put the sub in the floor, thats why I come up with the flying idea.... will that be really serious problem to flying the sub? |
Sidney Pilien wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:45 |
Stay away from foil shielded cables for snake runs. They're ugly when exposed for termination at the mixer side and are not numbered. Jacketed numbered multi pair (14?) is what you'll need like maybe |
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:38 |
I thought the shield cable, I could use that as ground. If I use this as a microphone cable, It will not work? or you mean, is this bad cable? |
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:38 |
I thought the shield cable, I could use that as ground. If I use this as a microphone cable, It will not work? or you mean, is this bad cable? |
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 13:20 |
By the way, can you recommend any microphone cable for future reference? |
Gary Creely wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 12:43 | ||
I looked closer at the cable and although you likely would be able to use the spiral shield as the ground, I would still recommend getting the correct cable. Besides the ground, it is also a rubberized jacket that makes it take up more room, and more difficult to pull. for the small cost I would get the right stuff. It will make the soldering go quicker as well. It is not that that cable is bad, just not the best choice for your application. |
Brad Weber wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 09:10 |
I would argue that for installations the individual cables are often a better choice than snake cable. If you have a number of inputs at one location, something like 8 mics on a single plate, then a multipair with an overall jacket for that location may make sense. But there is no reason you could not run multiple individual runs and often some advantage in doing so. What I don't think has been addressed is issues such as cable ratings. If the cabling is all in conduit then no special rating may be required. If you run the cabling above ceilings or in walls without conduit then it needs a certain rating. If the above ceiling space is a plenum space then the cabling needs a different rating. This applies whether running individual cables or a bundled snake cable. Another though for installed systems and regardless of whether running snake or individual cables is to run a few extra cables to accommodate some expansion and provide redundancy. One of the potential disadvantages to snake cables is that if you run an 8 pair snake for 8 connections and any single pair ever goes bad then you have to replace then entire snake. So think about whether a few redundant runs might be worth the additional initial cost. |
Gary Creely wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:10 | ||
Sidney, not sure what you are talking about here. Almost all install mic cable is a foil shield, including the IJIS you describe. |
Sidney Pilien wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 00:45 | ||
120' is no problem for mic lines, no repeaters needed. What is important is that you use the proper wire such as this: http://www.markertek.com/Cables/Bulk-Wire-Cable/Bulk-Audio-C able/West-Penn-Wire-Corp/291-BLACK.xhtml?WP-291-1000YW |
Danny Ryu wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 13:20 |
Thanks Gary. By the way, can you recommend any microphone cable for future reference? We also already have snake cable which is pre-made. Our mixer channel is 32 and I am not willing to plug the cable from the wall plate to snake cable. What I will do was to run the cable from the wall plate to mixer. The snake is already ran through the ceiling and we setup on the stage. |