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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: duane massey on October 26, 2014, 10:04:31 PM
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I have a client who wants replace some Yamaha passive wedges with powered monitors. Only used for vocals, no drums, bass, etc. House gig, no rider issues. I don't have access to a variety of products to compare, so I welcome any real-world suggestions.
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I have a client who wants replace some Yamaha passive wedges with powered monitors. Only used for vocals, no drums, bass, etc. House gig, no rider issues. I don't have access to a variety of products to compare, so I welcome any real-world suggestions.
You didn't mention what wedges, size of stage etc.
Some shots in the dark at two ends of the market.
db Tech Flexsys FM8 about $700/ea street
Alto SXM112A about $300/ea street
If you don't like coaxial drivers the EV ZLX series make great monitors. The ZLX12P is about $400 or so. Only thing with these is you need a 6x6 slab of high density foam to put underneath them since they sit naturally at your knees. I think they were beta tested on
[youtube]uCl4PbeaOQ4[/youtube]
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Small stage, somewhat loud band, three wedges for performers who do not move around much. Currently have Yamaha 15" wedges, but the club owner/drummer has decided he wants to relpace with powered speakers. Not for him, as he has a pair of SRX 725's for his monitors.
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QSC K12's are a popular choice for powered festival stage monitors. We use them heavily now. This year they were used for one of the secondary stages at Creation fest NW (the main stage was still EAW microwedges). If no riders have to be meet and its a club where it might get abused you might look into some Peavey power monitors.. I think they have both a 10" and 12" under $300 each.
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DSR112. Sound good, play loud.
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Was there a budget set for the monitors?
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Adding on to budget, are they willing to buy used?
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I would estimate the budget would be moderate ($400-600 per cabinet), as the cliebt has learned that the cheapest gear is rarely the right gear (hence the pair of SRX 725's for drum monitors). Unlike most situations each mix will be only the vocalist in front of the cabinet. Again, these will not be moved around so weight is not a factor. I am assuming 12" wedges would be suitable, but I'd love to hear what others experiences and opinions are. Thanks.
"Used" may be an option.
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Before you jump on the powered band wagon consider this. you will also want to purchase cover for those shiney new boxes, you will likely also have to buy more signal and power cables to wire them up as well. If its a bar gig you will also be putting electronics in harms way.
Consider a new multi channel power amp, new amps are light weight.
If you are using cheap, consider the behringer inuke nu4-6000, street price ~$350 4 channels x 440 watt 8 ohm, weighs under 15 lbs
for good consider PLD4.2 from qsc which is about same output but has DSP and is about 20 lbs street ~$1000
also consider this would keep the electronics out of harms way and you could conceivable hook up 4 mixes with 2 cable runs if you had some of the wedges set to pinset 2 on speakon connectors.
$600 per box would still leave you shopping in the basment bargain bin. after factoring in assc to do the job right
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I love my ELX112ps as monitors. 45 lbs each, get very loud and stay clear. Excellent for vocals in a situation where vocalists are going to be relatively stationary. They point at your ears, not your knees.
Can definitely be had for your price range even with necessary additional cabling. Shop around, I picked up 4 of them brand new for less than $1900.
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+1 with Richard's comments about staying passive for monitors.
On the road, not having an amp rack to deal with may be a convenience, but for a house gig, the amp can be positioned and not moved. Running a single cable for speakers instead of power and signal is a benefit. Also, not having controls on the speaker that can (and will) get messed up is a huge plus as well.
For stage monitors, my personal favorite is the JBL SRX712M's. Every time I use them, the artists give rave reviews of how they sound.
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Does Power matter?
Power Con or IEC?
Do you need Power Out option?
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I have the Peavey 15pm and also use the EV SXA250 active speakers as monitors. I like them both. With the edge going to the EV's. The Peavey monitors are quite loud even with their somewhat modest power rating and have held up to 5 string bass on more than a few nights where the bass player forgot his rig... The EV's have the same rms rating but are a few db's louder and take less eq. You can still find some new/used EVsxa250's around at a good price. I don't mind active monitors at all and find them simple when a bi-amped monitor is called for. In the picture is Adam Ezra at a show I did a while back with the Ev and Peavey monitors being used.
Douglas R. Allen
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If I could I would get rid of my collection of JBL PRX612m powered "wedges" they pretend to be -- just haven't recouped enough money from them. At $550 or so each, they were a bargain.
I'd definitely do 12" coax like the Microwedge, RCF NX12 SMA, or FBT Stagemaxx next time.
Having gone the powered route for wedges, I'd definitely go back to passive. The power cables make it a bit cumbersome during band changeover, and rain covers are a pain because the built-in amp needs air flow. With passive, I can have 4 wedges on a single NL8 (using internal crossover).
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Thanks for the responses, BUT please note the following:
(1) these will be used for vocals ONLY. No drums, bass, etc
(2) they will not be moved at all, house band with no other acts or change-overs.
(3) client WANTS powered monitors; he currently has passive and is convinced he wants powered instead.
(4) cabling is not an issue. He has plenty of cables of all sorts.
(5) there are no rider issues or standards, other than to be an improvement over the current Yamaha 15" wedges (or at least a perceived improvement from his perspective)
I am not suggesting that he needs these, only that he wants them. At this point in time he has mentioned an interest in some Yamaha powered wedges (not the plastic ones). Again, thanks for the responses, they have been helpful.
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DSR112. Sound good, play loud.
(http://thumbnails.hulu.com/545/40036545/40036545_384x288_generated.jpg)
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I'm using Alto TS112a and TS110a's as stage monitors and they work great. I much prefer them to the EV ZLX range. I've also tried the Alto SXM112a and prefer the Truesonic range. There is a 15" version should you feel the need but to be honest the TS112a's should be plenty!
I've also heard the EV ELX112p's as stage monitors and they were very impressive but I've not compared them directly to the Alto's (though I suspect they will be a step up). In this price range I prefer the Yamaha DXR range but don't think the finish on the cabinet is good for stage monitor purposes!
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Before you jump on the powered band wagon consider this. you will also want to purchase cover for those shiney new boxes, you will likely also have to buy more signal and power cables to wire them up as well. If its a bar gig you will also be putting electronics in harms way.
Consider a new multi channel power amp, new amps are light weight.
If you are using cheap, consider the behringer inuke nu4-6000, street price ~$350 4 channels x 440 watt 8 ohm, weighs under 15 lbs
for good consider PLD4.2 from qsc which is about same output but has DSP and is about 20 lbs street ~$1000
also consider this would keep the electronics out of harms way and you could conceivable hook up 4 mixes with 2 cable runs if you had some of the wedges set to pinset 2 on speakon connectors.
$600 per box would still leave you shopping in the basment bargain bin. after factoring in assc to do the job right
I tend to agree on this. If I have amplification and decent boxes, I don't need twice as many cables running all over the stage. I did a gymnasium show once with all powered gear and it was a royal PITA. Spent more time setting up and running power than anything else.
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I love my ELX112ps as monitors. 45 lbs each, get very loud and stay clear. Excellent for vocals in a situation where vocalists are going to be relatively stationary. They point at your ears, not your knees.
Can definitely be had for your price range even with necessary additional cabling. Shop around, I picked up 4 of them brand new for less than $1900.
I have a like new pair available for $750.....elx112p
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I tend to agree on this. If I have amplification and decent boxes, I don't need twice as many cables running all over the stage. I did a gymnasium show once with all powered gear and it was a royal PITA. Spent more time setting up and running power than anything else.
Kind of a swerve from the OP, but instructive to note John's experience. The OP's situation is a club where the drummer is the owner of the business and once these monitors are placed, probably won't move more than a foot in any direction... but if you're doing 3 bands a night or even just a different band every night, you need a cabling system to support your product choice or it's going to suck.
Siamese cables are cool, fairly expensive, but the "neat" way to run to the boxes, but what about on the other end? How you choose to deal with getting signal and power down the cable determines if this saves time or makes more work.
Likewise is the NL8 scheme that John Rutirasiri proposes. If you do an entire "system" of termination - say a pair of NL8 on the back of the amp rack, and a couple of NL8 to NL4 breakout boxes - you can save a fair bit of time and carry less long length NL4 inventory. The downside for many Lounge level folks is the cost - probably around $400 or more if you order a custom panel for the rack end of things, $300 or so if you DIY. $400 buys some mics or another monitor, or replaces the iPad that got dropped last month so it's a low priority item. Cable ain't sexy but creating consistent and robust cabling systems can make for fast and more fool proof setups, and cables are the one thing you can count on using every time.
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Duane - have been very happy with my QSC HPR122i's as monitors or mains; you could probably pick several up used for ~$500 each. The KW122's could also be worth looking at, but have more electronics - the HPR's are simple and work.
Did you say he's got two 725's as monitors? Either a DJ or a drummer...
On siamese cables, I wish that Proco and others would get wise to the fact that the audio cable on the mixer end needs to be usually 3-5' longer than the power cable - I have 3' XLRs attached to mine for this - but seems like it would be a no brainer to have that extra length there to keep audio up by the mixer and power down by the power... but that's me.
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I have a client who wants replace some Yamaha passive wedges with powered monitors. Only used for vocals, no drums, bass, etc. House gig, no rider issues. I don't have access to a variety of products to compare, so I welcome any real-world suggestions.
If you can get them closer to dealer cost, I've been very happy with my db Tech Flexsys FM12's. Only thing on the wish list they don't have for me is Powercon in and out. They're not a super screaming loud box, but should be more than plenty for vocal only. I'd definitely recommend coaxials for feedback stability.
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Has anyone heard these as general purpose floor monitors (rather than modeling guitar amp)? Lots of fans in the guitar world.
http://www.atomicamps.com/products.htm
500W powered 12" coax wedge for $999 factory direct. They have a 33lbs neo driver version for $400 more, but the premium wouldn't make sense for a permanent install.
Cheers,
JR
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Has anyone heard these as general purpose floor monitors (rather than modeling guitar amp)? Lots of fans in the guitar world.
http://www.atomicamps.com/products.htm
500W powered 12" coax wedge for $999 factory direct. They have a 33lbs neo driver version for $400 more, but the premium wouldn't make sense for a permanent install.
Cheers,
JR
Interesting box. Looking at different Youtube videos I do like the switch on the back that lets a person decide what goes out the "line out" jack. Nice way to get multi use out of the box. Wish the site had a little more info.
Douglas R. Allen
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If your in the market for coaxial monitors (un-powered) I can recommend the Community MX10 I install them in churches a lot haven't heard one complaint on them yet.
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If your in the market for coaxial monitors (un-powered) I can recommend the Community MX10 I install them in churches a lot haven't heard one complaint on them yet.
OP asks for powered.
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Thanks for the info, guys. I'll give the client a list of his options and see if he is actually serious about moving in this direction.
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happy thanksgiving!
Quick question - for those that have used the Alto SXM112A, the EV ELX112p, and the QSC HPR122i, how do they compare? Both the Alto and EV are priced right to add some powered monitors; I like the small footprint of the Altos. My reference point would be the QSC HPR122i or the original Mackie SRM450. Thanks!
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happy thanksgiving!
Quick question - for those that have used the Alto SXM112A, the EV ELX112p, and the QSC HPR122i, how do they compare? Both the Alto and EV are priced right to add some powered monitors; I like the small footprint of the Altos. My reference point would be the QSC HPR122i or the original Mackie SRM450. Thanks!
Ned...
I have the Alto's for their small size. They'll work for your mid-volume needs, but not for the "TURN IT UP!!!" requirements of mindlessly loud, ear-bleeding rock. I'd say vocals only for rockish usage but for my acoustic/electric encounters you can add in guitar and keys and such. Not a drum wedge by any means.
They are very tightly focused and often require an "aiming device" like a chunk of 2x4 to vary the tilt. I worked out a base-line PEQ/GEQ template for them and can try to send it to you if you'd like.
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Earlier this year, I picked up a pair of RCF NX-12SMAs from Mike Pyle. I couldn't be happier with them. Clean, coherent, stable and really loud.
http://www.rcf.it/products/pro-speaker-systems/nx-series/nx-12-sma
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Earlier this year, I picked up a pair of RCF NX-12SMAs from Mike Pyle. I couldn't be happier with them. Clean, coherent, stable and really loud.
http://www.rcf.it/products/pro-speaker-systems/nx-series/nx-12-sma
Took the words right out of my mouth. I got the NX12s from Mike. Couldn't be happier with the price or the product.
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Took the words right out of my mouth. I got the NX12s from Mike. Couldn't be happier with the price or the product.
I imagine they are nice, but since the OP states a budget of $400-$600 these do not qualify.
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Fair enough, just echoing the sentient.
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...echoing the sentient.
Better than echoing the unconscious...
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Better than echoing the unconscious...
LOL.... autocorrect got me :)
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happy thanksgiving!
Quick question - for those that have used the Alto SXM112A, the EV ELX112p, and the QSC HPR122i, how do they compare? Both the Alto and EV are priced right to add some powered monitors; I like the small footprint of the Altos. My reference point would be the QSC HPR122i or the original Mackie SRM450. Thanks!
I can not speak about the other two models but I use the ELX112ps and they have enough bottom for use as drum monitors. I've put the entire kit thru one already with no issues. In fact since I've been using these I have rarely had any issues getting them as loud as I needed without any feedback. Hav ebeen asked to turn them down numerous times. They are angled for very near field monitoring and will need angled back more if you have someone who stands back away from them. Those cheap brown rubber door stops work great.
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Has anyone heard these as general purpose floor monitors (rather than modeling guitar amp)? Lots of fans in the guitar world.
http://www.atomicamps.com/products.htm
500W powered 12" coax wedge for $999 factory direct. They have a 33lbs neo driver version for $400 more, but the premium wouldn't make sense for a permanent install.
Cheers,
JR
For that money I'd rather have the RCF coaxials.
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Thanks for all the suggestions. Client decided (wisely) to stick with his existing passive Yamaha's and postpone any further changes until next year.
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I can not speak about the other two models but I use the ELX112ps and they have enough bottom for use as drum monitors. I've put the entire kit thru one already with no issues. In fact since I've been using these I have rarely had any issues getting them as loud as I needed without any feedback. Hav ebeen asked to turn them down numerous times. They are angled for very near field monitoring and will need angled back more if you have someone who stands back away from them. Those cheap brown rubber door stops work great.
I respectfully disagree that the ELX112p has enough bottom for drum wedge, if your drummer wants kick and bass in his wedge at any volume. These speakers lose their UMPH at pretty low SPL. Of course maybe you have bands that play at reasonable volumes, I sadly rarely get those drummers.
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I respectfully disagree that the ELX112p has enough bottom for drum wedge, if your drummer wants kick and bass in his wedge at any volume. These speakers lose their UMPH at pretty low SPL. Of course maybe you have bands that play at reasonable volumes, I sadly rarely get those drummers.
I do sometimes put a powered sub under it, but normally its by itself on a tightly closed tripod stand right next to the drummers head, which Does have a significant impact since I usually get away with running the drum monitor at about half the level as the ones on the floor. So my comments should be qualified as such since I never put a drum wedge on the floor, if it not on a tripod its on a amp stand, either way always very close to the drummers ears. Ain't no joy like having drummers routinely ask you to turn the monitor down.
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Ned...
I have the Alto's for their small size. They'll work for your mid-volume needs, but not for the "TURN IT UP!!!" requirements of mindlessly loud, ear-bleeding rock. I'd say vocals only for rockish usage but for my acoustic/electric encounters you can add in guitar and keys and such. Not a drum wedge by any means.
They are very tightly focused and often require an "aiming device" like a chunk of 2x4 to vary the tilt. I worked out a base-line PEQ/GEQ template for them and can try to send it to you if you'd like.
Dick -
Thanks very much for the advice; I ended up buying one that we used at NY Toy Fair this past week for music amplification. At CES we used a TV sound bar that was anemic at best. The Alto surprised me by the lack of weight (nice) but also the sound. Use was under a table with a cover (so the sound police couldn't see a big SOS) playing a tango song every 1/2 hour. Sound was loud, clear and impressive with speaker gain at 12:00 and the mixer feeding it only at 40%...
Will be using it next weekend as a floor monitor in a crowded bar, but thanks again for this recommendation. At $299, it's a no brainer. Will be getting more!
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Yamaha DXR10.
Reasonably priced, loud, great for vocals.
I use these on my small stage and have never had any complaints.
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I've had both the Altos and some EV ZLX12s on the same stage. Lead singer likes the woofy sound of the EVs when he talks, the Altos won't do that. But when the music starts, you can hear the Altos easier. They have a punchyness in the vocal range that makes it easier to hear the vocals.
Also, the DXR10 is a good choice if you need more level. The Altos tend to give up around 117-120dB. The Yamahas will outrun the equivalent sized QSC K's. I just got a DBR10 for a drum monitor (on top of a DXS12 sub) and it's pretty close to my K10s.
DRS112s would be at the top of the budget (bought from the right place) but are seriously loud.
Push the budget a bit staying passive and I believe SRX712Ms are around. If you can't hear those, there are other problems.
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Personally, I'm yet to find a 10" that will keep up with a decent volume club/bar band and maintain any sort of headroom (even just vocals). I have some DSR112 that I've used for a year (now for sale, PM if interested). They've been great. If you already have amps for the existing boxes and they are at all capable of driving other boxes of choice, I'd stay passive. If you're not moving it, it doesn't matter how heavy amps are. I just don't know of anything in the $400-$600 (new) range that I'd want to play in front of. What can I say? Guess I'm spoiled. Maybe you can find some used SRX712m but plan on bi-amping them to really get their full potential.
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Just bought a 2nd Alto SXM112 this afternoon to have the matched set...
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Just bought a 2nd Alto SXM112 this afternoon to have the matched set...
Glad they're working out for you. As Stephen noted they kill on vocals. Plus the light weight, small footprint and tight, even pattern from the concentric config makes it very usable.
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Thanks for all the suggestions. Client decided (wisely) to stick with his existing passive Yamaha's and postpone any further changes until next year.
I agree, wise choice. If those are Yamaha Club wedges, then even better. Stupid loud, stupid heavy, and sound okay with some EQ help. A local venue that I work in has a fleet of Club 15s that have hung in for years while being flogged daily by everything from metal bands to hip-hop.
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I use QSC k 10's along side SRX 712's. Never any issues, no complaints from performers. Get loud and sound good enough for monitor duty.
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I too have a couple of the Alto SXM112, and everything that other members mention here is correct. Small size, decent build quality (one had a tweeter lead off when received) and good looking.
However I just purchased two of the Turbosound iq10's and just love them, also used them twice as SIS for mains. This little powered speaker has a ton of power and processing that includes some modeling of higher priced speakers, and a decent feedback eliminator, powercon, and come in at $549 a piece. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/iQ10
I don't believe anyone would be disappointed in purchasing these.
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I too have a couple of the Alto SXM112, and everything that other members mention here is correct. Small size, decent build quality (one had a tweeter lead off when received) and good looking.
However I just purchased two of the Turbosound iq10's and just love them, also used them twice as SIS for mains. This little powered speaker has a ton of power and processing that includes some modeling of higher priced speakers, and a decent feedback eliminator, powercon, and come in at $549 a piece. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/iQ10
I don't believe anyone would be disappointed in purchasing these.
Mike Pyle suggested the Turbos when I was looking for a Yamaha 10 to put on my DXS12 for a drum monitor set up. How would you compare them to QSC K10s?
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I have to believe Mike has listened to more speakers than I have considering he's a dealer. If there's a down side to the iq10's it's they weigh a little more, 38 as compared to 32 lbs. Now owned by the Music Group, one would have to believe they would have certainly tried to build a better K10. I think they did as the processing is very useful and has shortened set up times for me. The QSC's have been a "go to" speaker for years now, I'd say the iq10's are an improvement although I've never compared them side by side.
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Just a note to those following and not posting:
The Altos are concentric, the k10 and iq10 are not. There is a big difference in effectiveness of patterns, placement options and footprint.
Plus the alternatives cost twice as much as the Altos.
What's best for you is up to you...
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Mike Pyle suggested the Turbos when I was looking for a Yamaha 10 to put on my DXS12 for a drum monitor set up. How would you compare them to QSC K10s?
Just to clarify, I haven't listened to the iq10s. The speakers I suggested that you consider were the M10s, which to me sound "okay", but that several clients of mine swear by for stage monitor and light PA use (both the M10 and M12 models).
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Ah, that makes sense as the M10 is a closer comparison to the DBR10 I was looking for (which I found a used one of).
I loved the K10s when I bought them (some 5-7 years ago from Mike BTW) but lately I've become disenfranchised with them in comparison to DXR10s friends have and the DSR112s I bought from him. I'm the last person to "need" the latest thing. But the QSC's are seeming expensive for what they do.
Along with the Alto's I could use something a bit stronger for some situations. I have the two K10s and logic would say to get a couple more, keep things the same. But things like the iq10 are much more cost effective on a per box basis.
Right now I have the Altos across the front for vocals, the QSCs as sidefills or where instruments come out, and the DBR/DXS stack back at the drums. I don't want to make more of a hodge podge to have one or two more full range monitors (although the Altos are popular on-line for guitar modelers I don't consider them full range even compared to a good 10" 2 way, more for vocals or horns).