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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: sam saponaro on May 20, 2013, 12:40:07 AM
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I use 4x of these in standard(not step down)tuning in my little band system.I set the HP filter high around 45Hz to protect them.I gotta admit I think they are nice for single 18" cabs. I know they are only like 3.5mm xmax which is a joke by todays standards. But they seem to sound pretty punchy around the 63Hz which I like.
So any love?? Or ya think they are firewood ;D
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I use 4x of these in standard(not step down)tuning in my little band system.I set the HP filter high around 45Hz to protect them.I gotta admit I think they are nice for single 18" cabs. I know they are only like 3.5mm xmax which is a joke by todays standards. But they seem to sound pretty punchy around the 63Hz which I like.
So any love?? Or ya think they are firewood ;D
I think they are quite usable. There's not much out there that will do what a DL18m will do on 200 watts. I have a pair that I built modern looking cabinets for. These are basically the non-stepped down tuning. I use them for all manor of backyard parties and other events where power is scarce.
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I know they are only like 3.5mm xmax which is a joke by todays standards. But they seem to sound pretty punchy around the 63Hz which I like.
Xmax for the EV18B was only 3.3mm, even less than your recollection.
If you don't mind hauling four speakers around for the same SPL one cabinet with a single speaker with four times the Xmax (fairly common now) could provide, no problem.
But as Tim mentioned, they get loud with little power, good for those clubs where the stage outlet also provides power for the coffee machine and the beer cooler...
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This a standard reflex box and at 7 cu/ft is well sized to potentially deliver more output and extension with modern drivers, so no this isn't firewood assuming the cabs are solid.
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This a standard reflex box and at 7 cu/ft is well sized to potentially deliver more output and extension with modern drivers, so no this isn't firewood assuming the cabs are solid.
The TL 505 ports are sized for the displacement of the EV drivers of the era.
They are way undersized for drivers with current drivers with 4 times the displacement.
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The TL 505 ports are sized for the displacement of the EV drivers of the era.
They are way undersized for drivers with current drivers with 4 times the displacement.
In normal mode (45 Hz tuning) the TL 505 has a very large port 3 ½ inches by 21.5 inches. No problem with new drivers. In step down mode when the port was more than half covered up for 33Hz tuning I think it will be a bit small – the trick was to add length to the port instead of covering it up if you wanted to use some of the newer drivers which may require a lower Fb, you lose a bit of volume but I think it will be still quite usable.
http://hf-antenna.com/Flotsam/EV/ElectroVoice_TL505.pdf
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Yea the cabs are solid,the worst one has a gouge in the corner were a corner got ripped off but I'm gonna duraglass it and already have a roll of speaker carpet I'm gonna repretty them up with. But otherwise they are 3/4 birch ply no buzzes etc....
I have a pair of Carvin PS-18 800W 18s lyin around will the TS specs match these cabs without having to get the sawzall out lol....?
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they get loud with little power, good for those clubs where the stage outlet also provides power for the coffee machine and the beer cooler...
That's waaaayyy cool as I always keep a coffee maker and a hotplate plugged into the power amp rack.......... :o ;D
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In normal mode (45 Hz tuning) the TL 505 has a very large port 3 ½ inches by 21.5 inches. No problem with new drivers. In step down mode when the port was more than half covered up for 33Hz tuning I think it will be a bit small – the trick was to add length to the port instead of covering it up if you wanted to use some of the newer drivers which may require a lower Fb, you lose a bit of volume but I think it will be still quite usable.
http://hf-antenna.com/Flotsam/EV/ElectroVoice_TL505.pdf
The port is bigger than I remembered, but at the 45 Hz tuning only totals about 332 cubic inches, while a 16mm Xmax 18" has around 235 cubic inches displacement peak to peak- it would blow the air right out of the port.
Adding length to the full port if a lower tuning is desired is a good suggestion even if the 18Bs are used.
Sam, the Carvin PS-18 800W 18s will probably work OK in the TL 505 box.
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Sam, the Carvin PS-18 800W 18s will probably work OK in the TL 505 box.
Any idea what the xmax is on these? A band I play with had another set that was loaded in a set of scoops they used to own a while back. One of the magnets shifted and pinned the voice coil, I read some were this was a known problem with Carvin's speakers, any truth to that? I know of another Carvin 15 that did the same thing.
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I know they are only like 3.5mm xmax which is a joke by todays standards. But they seem to sound pretty punchy around the 63Hz which I like.
So any love?? Or ya think they are firewood ;D
I can’t say I have ever encountered any xmax issues with old EVM 18B Proline despite having a 3.3mm xmax. They were more susceptible to catching on fire in the middle of a show once they are fed close to 800 watts and/or the cones tearing due to too many sub-low frequencies.
That is my recollection on using them in the 1990’s.
Best Regards,
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Any idea what the xmax is on these? A band I play with had another set that was loaded in a set of scoops they used to own a while back. One of the magnets shifted and pinned the voice coil, I read some were this was a known problem with Carvin's speakers, any truth to that? I know of another Carvin 15 that did the same thing.
Carvin generally uses Eminence drivers, you could probably get an idea of the Xmax by looking through their drivers and seeing which driver yours looks most like.
Magnets can "shift" on almost any driver if the cabinet is dropped hard enough, I have not heard of Carvin's drivers suffering more of that malady than others, but I don't hear much about Carvin in general.
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Yea never been a fan of Carvin but with 2 layin around I may try um. I do know they have no vent holes so maybe overheating the glue makes the mags shift?? Who knows but I don't plan on bangin the cabs.
R there any modern drivers that would match up close to the TL505 box without having to mod the ports?(carpentry is not my strongsuit)
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R there any modern drivers that would match up close to the TL505 box without having to mod the ports?(carpentry is not my strongsuit)
There are many high excursion drivers that will work in the TL505, but the high excursion will blow the air out of the ports unless the port volume is increased. Blowing air does not make for increased SPL.
You could get someone at Home Depot or Lowes to cut the port extension pieces (one piece of plywood per cabinet), and if you can apply some screws and caulk, you could reduce your cabinet count and increase output level.
If you don't want to increase the port volume, using higher Xmax drivers (which will also require more amplifier power to reach the higher Xmax) is simply a waste of power and expense.
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Well I do got a 2000W(1325@8ohm 1950@4ohm) amp per side on the lows so power should be OK for longer xmax high wattage speakers. So just one piece of wood per cab for port extensions??
Basically I'd be looking more for higher SPL than lowend extension if I swapped speakers,I like what the 505s do as is. Just more of it and possibly getting it from 2 instead of 4 would be sweet.
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The port is bigger than I remembered, but at the 45 Hz tuning only totals about 332 cubic inches, while a 16mm Xmax 18" has around 235 cubic inches displacement peak to peak- it would blow the air right out of the port.
Adding length to the full port if a lower tuning is desired is a good suggestion even if the 18Bs are used.
Sam, the Carvin PS-18 800W 18s will probably work OK in the TL 505 box.
The area of the ports in the designs below (per driver or pair in the case of the VUE) is similar to the port area in the TL505. The velocity of the air in the port is the important factor relating to port size, and is directly related to the cross sectional area. The volume of the port determines the tuning frequency.
http://www.bassmaxx.com/pdf/SSP218.pdf
http://www.vueaudio.com/products/as-418/
These both use new high Xmax drivers.
At a guess(check with some software) if you about double the length of the port in the TL505 and stick one of these drivers in it, I think it will work quite well http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product_simple&pid=298
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Well I do got a 2000W(1325@8ohm 1950@4ohm) amp per side on the lows so power should be OK for longer xmax high wattage speakers. So just one piece of wood per cab for port extensions??
Basically I'd be looking more for higher SPL than low end extension if I swapped speakers,I like what the 505s do as is.
If you go with a speaker with four times the displacement (like the one Peter suggests), the port needs about 4 times the volume to not be "blown out".
Increasing the port volume by going from 4" to 16" depth lowers the tuning quite a bit.
The cabinets Peter links to have ports with similar (the 505 is around 70 sq inches for one cone) area, but are in the 16" deep range.
To maintain a 45 Hz Fb with additional depth will also require additional port area, not just a simple 23" x 4" additional piece of wood.
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If you go with a speaker with four times the displacement (like the one Peter suggests), the port needs about 4 times the volume to not be "blown out".
Increasing the port volume by going from 4" to 16" depth lowers the tuning quite a bit.
The cabinets Peter links to have ports with similar (the 505 is around 70 sq inches for one cone) area, but are in the 16" deep range.
To maintain a 45 Hz Fb with additional depth will also require additional port area, not just a simple 23" x 4" additional piece of wood.
Ah, I see. Tuning boxes is a new thing for me. I used to just stick speakers in and listen. And lately gone with what a box is designed for(once I learned about TS and ports) realizing a bigger speaker in the wrong box don't allways net an increase in sound.
So modding ports is a whole new learning curve for me.
Just curious how do the TLs compare(stock w/ 18b)to say the Newer EV ELX118 or Yamaha Club IV,single 18" boxes? I know they can't compete with "highend" stuff by any means,
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Just curious how do the TLs compare(stock w/ 18b)to say the Newer EV ELX118 or Yamaha Club IV,single 18" boxes? I know they can't compete with "highend" stuff by any means,
Looks like the EV ELX118 slightly higher power handling versions of the same old stuff, not much of an upgrade if any. Club IV probably uses fairly run of the mill Eminence 18".
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If you go with a speaker with four times the displacement (like the one Peter suggests), the port needs about 4 times the volume to not be "blown out".
Increasing the port volume by going from 4" to 16" depth lowers the tuning quite a bit.
The cabinets Peter links to have ports with similar (the 505 is around 70 sq inches for one cone) area, but are in the 16" deep range.
To maintain a 45 Hz Fb with additional depth will also require additional port area, not just a simple 23" x 4" additional piece of wood.
If I were to decide to swap drivers with the type ports the Tls have,I would need to just add a flat piece of 3/4 ply to extend the existing peice that sits accross the whole three port area??By three ports I mean all three sections were the two divider peices are that go all the way back?
I couldn't find that eighteen sound driver that was in the link Peter Morris left no one seems to stock it when I google searched it.Upon searching I found some old topics on TL505s were it was mentioned the RCF L18P300 and B & C 18TBX100(this one had more Xmax) how would I know how much port extension to install If I were to drop the dime for one of these pairs?
Also would a JBL 2241 or 2245 work in these boxes?? cause a freind of mine has a few layin in his garage.He says they need 8cu ft,the TLs are 7.1cu ft.
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If I were to decide to swap drivers with the type ports the Tls have,I would need to just add a flat piece of 3/4 ply to extend the existing peice that sits accross the whole three port area??By three ports I mean all three sections were the two divider peices are that go all the way back?
I couldn't find that eighteen sound driver that was in the link Peter Morris left no one seems to stock it when I google searched it.Upon searching I found some old topics on TL505s were it was mentioned the RCF L18P300 and B & C 18TBX100(this one had more Xmax) how would I know how much port extension to install If I were to drop the dime for one of these pairs?
Also would a JBL 2241 or 2245 work in these boxes?? cause a freind of mine has a few layin in his garage.He says they need 8cu ft,the TLs are 7.1cu ft.
Extending the port by simply adding a piece of 3/4 ply lowers tuning, as mentioned in reply #16.
The difference between 7.1 and 8 cubic feet is not much.
Any speaker will "work" in the box, the speaker's VAS (and other TS parameters) determines the ideal box size, but to get more output requires more displacement. Displacement is cone area (Sd) x travel, Xmax.
More displacement requires larger port volume (port area x port depth) to avoid "port compression" which happens at high port velocities.
Larger port volume also reduces cabinet size...
The B&C 18TBX100 is a good cone, 11mm Xvar (Xvar is a measured parameter B&C uses and is generally equivalent to other's Xmax) the BC TBW100 has 14mm Xvar, almost double the JBL 2241 at 7.62 and the 2242 at 7.87mm Xmax.
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He has 2245s w/ 9.65mm xmax.
As much as I'm starting to lust for a set of B&Cs or RCFs.Being budget concious,I could probably buy the 2245s at half there price. If I didn't mind changing the 45Hz tuning.Could the ports be lengthened to make them "work well" as far as reducing cabinet count? If I could get equal or greater kick thump out of 2 boxes vs 4 18B boxes for some of the smaller venues I freqently use this setup in,I'd be happy. I can allways use 4 as needed.
The 2245s specs are way differant Vas is 821.2 Qts .27 and FS 20 as per theilesmall.com were as the 18bs are 516 .36 and 33.
Sorry if I'm not getting it,I'm showing my ignorance in speaker box TS specs.
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Could the ports be lengthened to make them "work well" as far as reducing cabinet count?
The 2245s specs are way differant Vas is 821.2 Qts .27 and FS 20 as per theilesmall.com were as the 18bs are 516 .36 and 33.
Sorry if I'm not getting it,I'm showing my ignorance in speaker box TS specs.
Sam,
If you are going to learn, you need to DIY, rather than have me repeat the same answers over and over ;).
One hint, a speaker with an Fs of 20 Hz is not a good choice when you want to use a Fb of 45 Hz.
Time for you to download Hornresp, David McBean's free simulation program, and start plugging in the various speakers TS parameters and tunings you are considering to see how they compare for output and frequency response.
You can also leave box and port the same and compare each speaker.
Also compare port velocity, you don't want more than around 15 meters per second at Xmax.
Big ports for big Xmax.
Have fun!
Art
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If I were to decide to swap drivers with the type ports the Tls have,I would need to just add a flat piece of 3/4 ply to extend the existing peice that sits accross the whole three port area??By three ports I mean all three sections were the two divider peices are that go all the way back?
I couldn't find that eighteen sound driver that was in the link Peter Morris left no one seems to stock it when I google searched it.Upon searching I found some old topics on TL505s were it was mentioned the RCF L18P300 and B & C 18TBX100(this one had more Xmax) how would I know how much port extension to install If I were to drop the dime for one of these pairs?
Also would a JBL 2241 or 2245 work in these boxes?? cause a freind of mine has a few layin in his garage.He says they need 8cu ft,the TLs are 7.1cu ft.
Hi Sam,
I thought this may be of interest ...
http://www.usspeaker.com/
• THE NEW B&C 18 TBW100 IS A VERY HIGH POWER 18" WOOFER THAT HANDLES 1,500 WATTS AES STANDARD & 3,000 WATTS PROGRAM
• EXTENDED XMAX OF 12.0MM FOR A VERY DEEP TIGHT CHEST POUNDING BASS SOUND
• ALUMINUM DEMODULATION RING KEEPS FLAT RESPONSE & DISTORTION LOW
• CONE IS WATERPROOF ON BOTH SIDES
• FEATURES A DOUBLE SPIDER, VENTILATED VOICE COIL GAP & A LARGE 4" VOICE COIL
• THE B&C 18 TBW100 SPEAKER IS OPTIMIZED FOR EXTREMELY HIGH OUTPUT SUBWOOFER SYSTEMS IN CONCERT, SOUND REINFORCEMENT SYSTEMS, THEATER, ETC.
• Enclosure Type - Bass Reflex/Ported
• Cabinet Size - 7.0 cu. ft. / 200 Litres
• Tuning - 32Hz
• Frequency @ -3dB - 32.2Hz
• Port Area - 133.7" / 3396mm
• Port Depth - 12.48" / 317mm
Check this design out…..looks very much like you TL505, especially the port design and size but with more length. http://www.eighteensound.com/staticContent/applications/kits/kit18_front.htm
And this one … very high Xmax driver, slightly bigger box with a smaller port than your TL505 http://bcspeakers.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/02/12/16/15/09/156/file
All of the speakers used for these designs would work ... you just need to lower the tuning frequency to around 35Hz.
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Thanks I've been looking at the 18TBW100 and the 18TBX100.
I think I've decided to sell off one set of TL505 and the 18B speakers from the other to fund this project.I just gotta wait till some down time so I'm not out subwoofers come gig time.
Now which set to upgrade and which to sell,is the question.One set is glued and bradded and the other set is screwed together every 2" w/ screws but this set has nicer handles etc...
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I was comparing specs on us speaker.Would the EMI Definimax 4018 LF be a good match if I lengthen the ports?? The Fs and Qts are very close to the 18B and B&C drivers and still have 7.9mm xmax.And they are like $100+ cheaper than the B&Cs(budget is a bit tight).
BTW I stuck those Carvin 18s I had lyin around in and they stunk.Found the TS specs and they are kinna far off.Sounded better in step down but still not as good as 18B.
Sorry to keep this thread running like the energizer bunny...I'm too dumb a guitar player to figure the box programs out....LOL
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I was comparing specs on us speaker.Would the EMI Definimax 4018 LF be a good match if I lengthen the ports?? The Fs and Qts are very close to the 18B and B&C drivers and still have 7.9mm xmax.And they are like $100+ cheaper than the B&Cs(budget is a bit tight).
So saving $100 for a speaker with about 55% of the output sounds like a good deal to you?
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I dunno? Really I have no complaints about the 18B as is,cept it takes 4X to get were I want to be. I just like the idea of not having to lug 4 cabs if I can get there with 2. That and its two less cabs I need to recover/refinish and regrill as there all somewhat ugly right now.
The B&Cs would be great and would get the max from these boxes,but with an 11mo old baby and other stuff its a long way off for me. I'm just thinking the EMI can be had for $199ea on ebay so saving $300+ for the pair of driver w/ more than double my existing xmax might be worthwhile for my needs.
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So saving $100 for a speaker with about 55% of the output sounds like a good deal to you?
After test running my system befor the first gig with my new 3 way setup,I popped one of my 18Bs it fizzled and went dead no voice coil rub just dead.So giving it some real thought now that I'm on the line the EMI Difinimax is less sensitive and takes less wattage so inturn would mean almost 6Db less output.So I'm gonna go B&C you are right for a couple $100 dollars I'm just being CHEAP.
Thanks for the help and patience.