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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Joseph Amodeo on July 22, 2017, 09:16:26 AM
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is there such a thing as CHEAP DJ speakers designed to be BUILT LIKE A TANK and designed to be super LOUD and are known for never breaking down and to be very servicable or repairable... with just very BASIC OK sound quality... again im wondering if there is such a thing as cheap speakers with ironclad BUILD QUALITY, designed to go LOUD and just have OK CLARITY AND FIDELITY... very basic "good enough" sound quality not necessarily audiophile level quality, just something that is truly well made and very durable, long lasting, servicable...and still cheap... im pretty sure youre paying for sound quality on the more expensive lines and not necessarily durability... but correct me if im wrong... i want something that is truly built correctly not half assed... but still cheap due to sacrificing SOUND QUALITY to where its just ok and acceptable... im pretty convinced that massive increases in price only account for miniscule and diminishing improvements in sound quality anyway...
if im wrong and the super expensive brands and product lines are so expensive due to sound quality AS WELL AS build quality... please school me on cheaper brands that still maintain some of this good build quality
for example ive heard behrigner eurolives can "die on you any time"... i want something with solid solder connections, readily available replacement parts for tweeters, horns etc... decentncase, but OK DECENT sound quality...
think of it like using those 2006 480p digital cameras after 720-1080p hd tvs came out in 2007-8... people bitch and complain BUT YOU CAN STILL SEE CLEARLY WHAT IS HAPPENING ON SCREEN... HOWEVER... the 1990s seinfeld sitcom grainy film cameras.. or like the grainy security camera shot of a criminal on the news.. THATS TAKING IT TOO FAR AND I DONT WANT THAT BAD QUALITY... i just want ok quality where you can make out the song just fine and any improvements in quality range from unnecessary to marginal to non noticable to impress audio snobs
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is there such a thing as CHEAP DJ speakers designed to be BUILT LIKE A TANK and designed to be super LOUD and are known for never breaking down and to be very servicable or repairable... with just very BASIC OK sound quality... again im wondering if there is such a thing as cheap speakers with ironclad BUILD QUALITY, designed to go LOUD and just have OK CLARITY AND FIDELITY... very basic "good enough" sound quality not necessarily audiophile level quality, just something that is truly well made and very durable, long lasting, servicable...and still cheap... im pretty sure youre paying for sound quality on the more expensive lines and not necessarily durability... but correct me if im wrong... i want something that is truly built correctly not half assed... but still cheap due to sacrificing SOUND QUALITY to where its just ok and acceptable... im pretty convinced that massive increases in price only account for miniscule and diminishing improvements in sound quality anyway...
if im wrong and the super expensive brands and product lines are so expensive due to sound quality AS WELL AS build quality... please school me on cheaper brands that still maintain some of this good build quality
for example ive heard behrigner eurolives can "die on you any time"... i want something with solid solder connections, readily available replacement parts for tweeters, horns etc... decentncase, but OK DECENT sound quality...
think of it like using those 2006 480p digital cameras after 720-1080p hd tvs came out in 2007-8... people bitch and complain BUT YOU CAN STILL SEE CLEARLY WHAT IS HAPPENING ON SCREEN... HOWEVER... the 1990s seinfeld sitcom grainy film cameras.. or like the grainy security camera shot of a criminal on the news.. THATS TAKING IT TOO FAR AND I DONT WANT THAT BAD QUALITY... i just want ok quality where you can make out the song just fine and any improvements in quality range from unnecessary to marginal to non noticable to impress audio snobs
You will need to use your real name as your display name on this forum as per the forum rules - Once that is done I am sure the good folks here will be of some help to you..... thank you
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is there such a thing as CHEAP DJ speakers designed to be BUILT LIKE A TANK and designed to be super LOUD and are known for never breaking down and to be very servicable or repairable... with just very BASIC OK sound quality... again im wondering if there is such a thing as cheap speakers with ironclad BUILD QUALITY, designed to go LOUD and just have OK CLARITY AND FIDELITY... very basic "good enough" sound quality not necessarily audiophile level quality, just something that is truly well made and very durable, long lasting, servicable...and still cheap... im pretty sure youre paying for sound quality on the more expensive lines and not necessarily durability... but correct me if im wrong... i want something that is truly built correctly not half assed... but still cheap due to sacrificing SOUND QUALITY to where its just ok and acceptable... im pretty convinced that massive increases in price only account for miniscule and diminishing improvements in sound quality anyway...
if im wrong and the super expensive brands and product lines are so expensive due to sound quality AS WELL AS build quality... please school me on cheaper brands that still maintain some of this good build quality
for example ive heard behrigner eurolives can "die on you any time"... i want something with solid solder connections, readily available replacement parts for tweeters, horns etc... decentncase, but OK DECENT sound quality...
think of it like using those 2006 480p digital cameras after 720-1080p hd tvs came out in 2007-8... people bitch and complain BUT YOU CAN STILL SEE CLEARLY WHAT IS HAPPENING ON SCREEN... HOWEVER... the 1990s seinfeld sitcom grainy film cameras.. or like the grainy security camera shot of a criminal on the news.. THATS TAKING IT TOO FAR AND I DONT WANT THAT BAD QUALITY... i just want ok quality where you can make out the song just fine and any improvements in quality range from unnecessary to marginal to non noticable to impress audio snobs
No
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No
+1
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"If you want a plump turkey - you gotta pay for a plump turkey"
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The most important part of a sound system? The speakers. The first thing cut when making cheap speakers? Longevity.
Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
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Note enough information to give a real answer, because you need to define what 'cheap' means to you.
What is your budget per speaker?
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is there such a thing as speakers known for never breaking down and to be very servicable or repairable...
"So which is it sonny? You want that we get on the floor, or don't move.....", old coot in Raising Arizona.
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Note enough information to give a real answer, because you need to define what 'cheap' means to you.
What is your budget per speaker?
budget is 350 for the pair used... hence cheap... the cheaper the better
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budget is 350 for the pair used... hence cheap... the cheaper the better
You want a unicorn with that? Maybe a pony? /snark
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Look for a used powered speaker that the pro sound companies stopped using several years ago. Something like the QSC HPR 122i
Here is a link to a hpr122i for sale (https://reverb.com/item/5804107-qsc-hpr122i?gclid=Cj0KCQjw78vLBRCZARIsACr4cxweWaHhK9rVIe6ZMUqCeDuiPpV7CbWf63avsAYKYkc7AWYK0XRBir0aAvHZEALw_wcB&pla=1) I saw on reverb.com
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and btw, a single hpr122i will probably out perform most pairs of speakers that you will be able to get with your budget.
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Tell us more about the kind of gigs where you want to use the gear.
How big is the space, how many people, what kind of music, what kind of audience (and audience expectations.)
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Something like the QSC HPR 122i
Still using mine, along with the rest of my HPR rig...about 9 years after the initial purchase. Buy once cry once...you get what you pay for. Not knowing anything else about your jobs/market/expectations, I'll throw in a vote for the Mackie SRM450. I don't like them personally and most often-discussed offerings from QSC, Yamaha, etc. will walk all over them, but these are the absolute cheapest speakers that I'd consider to be "acceptable", at least in the band/DJ market so long as you have a sub and aren't trying to work miracles with them. Looks like you can get a pair for about 1K. Less if you have a good dealer relationship or buy used.
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... I'll throw in a vote for the Mackie SRM450....
If you can find a really old one (up to sometime in 1993) they were made in Italy by RCF at the time and have a reputation of being much better than the new ones. There are some old posts on how to read the serial number to tell.
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Nothing says "cheap DJ" like Behringer.
What?
Oh...
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my gigs would be small pubs, medium sized restaurants, barbecues and deck parties...
have people had experience with the EV's breaking down, same goes for peaveys, yamahas, etc... just want something that wont break down, which apparently happens for all budget speakers... so at least something that can be replaced or upgraded any time a woofer blows etc
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my gigs would be small pubs, medium sized restaurants, barbecues and deck parties...
have people had experience with the EV's breaking down, same goes for peaveys, yamahas, etc... just want something that wont break down, which apparently happens for all budget speakers... so at least something that can be replaced or upgraded any time a woofer blows etc
What you have to understand is that the problem is the user. DJ's are well-known for blowing shit up no matter the brand. There are no idiot proof speakers...
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What you have to understand is that the problem is the user. DJ's are well-known for blowing shit up no matter the brand. There are no idiot proof speakers...
i know what im doing with a gain knob i have some training as an audio engineer
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Woofers blow when you push them too hard. Not on their own.
If you're serious about it (Do you do this for a living?), spend some more money and get yourself some proper tools.
Get a PA that's louder than you'll ever need, that way you won't ever have to push it hard and you won't have to replace drivers every now and then.
QSC just released their new K.2 series, so second hand value of K12s and the like has gone down quite a bit. You can get a used pair for under a grand.
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how is the mackie srm 450 in terms of repairability... i know the drivers are somewhat easy to find... what about qsc k10... are these easy to repair? i guess the entire topic of this thread should be what speakers are easiest to repair... and have parts most readoly available...
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Whatever you buy for $350/pair *will* do a Joan of Arc impression when you run them at "loud DJ levels".
You'd be better off asking for the unicorn.
If you're doing audio as an income source I suggest you reevaluate your business plan and plan on adding a couple of 0's to the price tag as you don't seem to understand what it costs to provide sound on a commercial basis. That you're now asking about repair costs and parts availability does not give me a warmer or fuzzier feeling; how many times are you willing to "buy" the same speakers over and over again when you repeatedly blow them up?
Do you have liability insurance to cover your business? What happens when a drunk patron runs into a speaker stand and the speaker lands on someone else (or the drunk)? When folks come here asking for the cheapest possible item for a commercial use it usually means there is no business plan or a realistic concept of what it takes to operate even a profitable hobby.
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how is the mackie srm 450 in terms of repairability... i know the drivers are somewhat easy to find... what about qsc k10... are these easy to repair? i guess the entire topic of this thread should be what speakers are easiest to repair... and have parts most readoly available...
Hey Joe...
Why don't you jst learn how to use the gear properly so you don't have to keep repairing your mistakes?
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Hey Joe...
Why don't you jst learn how to use the gear properly so you don't have to keep repairing your mistakes?
And that seems to negate his comment about having "training as an audio engineer." Engineers know how to evaluate a particular item and determine that item's suitability for a given purpose.
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i know what im doing with a gain knob i have some training as an audio engineer
No, apparently not.
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Hey Joe...
Why don't you jst learn how to use the gear properly so you don't have to keep repairing your mistakes?
Exactly! Speakers rarely fail on their own. The vast majority of time, failure is 100% the fault of the user. Treated properly, speakers should last nearly indefinitely.
Powered speakers change the rules a bit, as the internal electronics can fail without abuse.
If you really want to get a PAIR of speakers for $350, the only way you will find anything worthwhile is if it fell off the back of a truck. That’s simply not a realistic number.
Who cares about repairability at that point either? A $175 item that breaks is a throw away.
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its very simple... uuh.. i believe mackie srm450s are loud enougqh for the venues i specified... small pubs restaurants etc... doesnt make me an idiot for asking a simple question erreplacement parts... SERIOUSLY? use your gear correctly??? speakers under 500$ might randomly die on you whether you crank them too high or not... simply due to age or poor construction... this other guy wants me to buy insurance to gig a small pub...
serious question... youre telling me cheap speakers will never blow out if you play within their limits... in theory i think not... at what point did i say i was going to crank up the speakers past their intended volume...
replacing my mistakes? determine the items suitability for a given purpose? uuuh more like trying to find high powered low def entry level speakers... using them within their intended volume... and replacing certain parts every couple of years if they crap out on no ones fault
any experience with EV ZLX12p's randomly dieing???
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I have a pair of 1993 Mackie SRM450 (Made in Italy by RCF) that I purchased used in 2004 and have been using about once a month since. First as mains, now as monitors. Never had to repair them.
My Peavey Impulse 12D pair were purchased new in 2011. These have been used as mains since then. About every 10th feedback event or so seems to result in a blown tweeter. I send in the driver to PV and they repair it for a reasonable flat fee. (See other recent thread about MC's standing in front of the mains. :) ) They've never had a problem unrelated to user error.
I've used some HPR122's from a local sound company that had extreme denting on the grilles, scratches and cuts on the enclosure and looked generally abused. They sounded great.
My personal HPR115's (4 of them) were purchased used. For 3 of them, the previous owners claimed to have used them for many years and never had to repair them. I have not had the opportunity to use them very much. (My intended use for them never happened, but my GAS problem won't allow me to sell them.)
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its very simple... uuh.. i believe mackie srm450s are loud enougqh for the venues i specified... small pubs restaurants etc... doesnt make me an idiot for asking a simple question erreplacement parts... SERIOUSLY? use your gear correctly??? speakers under 500$ might randomly die on you whether you crank them too high or not... simply due to age or poor construction... this other guy wants me to buy insurance to gig a small pub...
serious question... youre telling me cheap speakers will never blow out if you play within their limits... in theory i think not... at what point did i say i was going to crank up the speakers past their intended volume...
replacing my mistakes? determine the items suitability for a given purpose? uuuh more like trying to find high powered low def entry level speakers... using them within their intended volume... and replacing certain parts every couple of years if they crap out on no ones fault
any experience with EV ZLX12p's randomly dieing???
You mentioned blown woofers; Woofers don't "blow randomly", that's a fact. They only blow because of abuse, either short or long term.
Think of speakers as car engines. "Enough" is when you can get the required performance at 3000 rpm. Not 7000, and certainly not hitting the rev limiters all day long.
Anyway, Mackie is generally considered to be at the lower end of the spectrum quality-wise. In fact, the only "random" speaker failure I've ever heard of were some Mackie amp modules that failed. QSC, Yamaha, RCF & EV are all very well respected companies which I, personally, would trust way more than Mackie.
A new pair of K12.2s is what I would go for, and no, they are NOT considered to be expensive speakers. They'd have plenty of headroom and should last for a long time - They even come with 6 year warranty (!)
I've used those ZLX boxes - They sounded ok considering what they cost, they're not even remotely close to K12s in output. 450s would possibly outrun them too.
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If you are still considering 2 speakers for $350, then I would not be concerned about repair costs as there are no quality parts in the box (including the box) worth replacing.
Purchasing a single speaker, probably used, for $350 at least has the potential for getting you out of the junk category.
If you were my friend, I would tell you that "Friends don't let friends buy junk."
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If you were my friend, I would tell you that "Friends don't let friends buy junk."
The wrong product at the "right price" is still the wrong product.
Buy once, cry once.
Whatever ain't physics is psychology.
No man's credit is as good as his cash.
Today's business lessons for those still following along....
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its very simple... uuh.. i believe mackie srm450s are loud enougqh for the venues i specified... small pubs restaurants etc... doesnt make me an idiot for asking a simple question erreplacement parts... SERIOUSLY? use your gear correctly??? speakers under 500$ might randomly die on you whether you crank them too high or not... simply due to age or poor construction... this other guy wants me to buy insurance to gig a small pub...
serious question... youre telling me cheap speakers will never blow out if you play within their limits... in theory i think not... at what point did i say i was going to crank up the speakers past their intended volume...
replacing my mistakes? determine the items suitability for a given purpose? uuuh more like trying to find high powered low def entry level speakers... using them within their intended volume... and replacing certain parts every couple of years if they crap out on no ones fault
any experience with EV ZLX12p's randomly dieing???
Joe...
I've had my own sound business since 1992 and worked in the industry since the 1960's. In that time I've had to replace two HF drivers and ZERO woofers...and both replacements were due to DJ's who "knew what they were doing".
You'll get no sympathy outside of maybe over at Gearslutz where a lot of folks have experience at blowing stuff up.
Thanks for coming by.
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its very simple... uuh.. i believe mackie srm450s are loud enougqh for the venues i specified... small pubs restaurants etc... doesnt make me an idiot for asking a simple question erreplacement parts... SERIOUSLY? use your gear correctly??? speakers under 500$ might randomly die on you whether you crank them too high or not... simply due to age or poor construction... this other guy wants me to buy insurance to gig a small pub...
serious question... youre telling me cheap speakers will never blow out if you play within their limits... in theory i think not... at what point did i say i was going to crank up the speakers past their intended volume...
replacing my mistakes? determine the items suitability for a given purpose? uuuh more like trying to find high powered low def entry level speakers... using them within their intended volume... and replacing certain parts every couple of years if they crap out on no ones fault
any experience with EV ZLX12p's randomly dieing???
You should have insurance to perform in public. Many don't that doesn't make it right. People have unprotected sex with hookers too.
You have a couple of problems. You walked into a room of touring audio professionals and didn't read the rules (you had to change your name). That's done for many reasons but one is to make sure you are capable or reading instructions. See up top "live sound professionals" there are guys responding to you that are out touring on national acts in top venues and arenas. There are many forums where you can receive confirmation from like minded individuals, here you can learn.
You say you have some engineering training, this is the wrong place to drop that and then use "crank it up" people with training set levels.
Then you go on to offer a budget of $350.00 that basically is a couple of stands and bags to carry them. $350 will not buy QSC K10's, 99% of EV's product etc. To say Yamaha equipment is unreliable is also non-sequitur. The Yamaha DSR's are one of the most respected speaker on a stick in these rooms.
All the vendors you mentions have product lines from entry level pro-sumer to touring level rear.
I can personally tell you that we have 100k worth of QSC KW series in our warehouse and it's our bread and butter. We had one magnet come unriveted from a driver frame and I am sure that was due to rough handling.
Even discount brands such as Alto will treat you right if you don't ask more than they are capable of. We run Alto's in monitor duty both the wedges and TS series and have not had one let us down yet.
If you are running material with significant low frequency content you need to run subwoofers to take the load off the tops, you will never get acceptable performance out of simple 2 way bass reflex speakers.
Lastly, don't be offended, you walked into the barber shop and ended up with a haircut. No surprise. You got some high end advice that should help you up your game.
Good luck.
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You'll get no sympathy outside of maybe over at Gearslutz where a lot of folks have experience at blowing stuff up.
I have loads of experience blowing stuff up! But that's as a pyrotechnician where explosions are the intended result...
Sounds-wise, same story. Some gear is a little more tolerant to abuse than others, but generally speaking this stuff should last a long time with proper care and use. I'll say again, I've been using my QSC HPR rig for about 9 years now without a single issue. Sure, they have their limits just like anything else, but from a business perspective they're one of the best investments I've made to date. I'd wager others using systems around the same pricepoint would agree - outstanding bang to buck and return on investment for what they are and what they can handle. I just threw the SRM450 out there as the cheapest box I'd personally consider acceptable, but if it were me, I'd save the extra cash and go for something a little more capable.
Trying to stay constructive, if $350/pr is the absolute most you can spend, I'd look for a weekend warrior trying to get out of the business and see what deals can be had. The first pair of speakers and subs I owned were acquired that way (full system under 1K), and it got me started until I could afford a nicer and more capable rig. I then resold that starter system to someone else looking for the same thing. That, or try your luck on a Behringer/Peavy/Samson/etc rig from Guitar Center. Get a good coupon and you can probably come in under $350. Best of luck to you though!
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budget is 350 for the pair used... hence cheap... the cheaper the better
Not possible.
Double your budget and you can find something used like an old RCF, JBL PRX or QSC HPR.
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Hot damn, I sure missed some fun today!!
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If you are still considering 2 speakers for $350, then I would not be concerned about repair costs as there are no quality parts in the box (including the box) worth replacing.
Purchasing a single speaker, probably used, for $350 at least has the potential for getting you out of the junk category.
If you were my friend, I would tell you that "Friends don't let friends buy junk."
+1
Buy the best single 12" powered speaker you can now, and buy another later.
Even if you had a heap of money today, it would be wise to have a strategy about how your equipment would expand and evolve to meet larger and larger shows over time.
I'd go down a path like:
Single 12" speaker
Combo disco light like a Chauvet Swarm
Single subwoofer
Another 12" speaker
More lights
Another subwoofer
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I agree with the advice of the previous poster. Below is more of my opinion.
Don't be afraid of getting only 1 speaker. A single non-junk speaker will do a better job than 2 pieces of junk.
While I still don't know exactly what you are trying to accomplish, if you are trying to use this for a band, start by using a single speaker with vocals only. Don't try to run all your guitars, bass and drums through a small system.
When you can afford it, the next step would be to add a sub. A single speaker with a decent subwoofer will probably be sufficient for the gigs you mentioned. With that combo, you might even be able to add in some of the other instruments depending on the quality of what you get.
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Another vote for 1 speaker.
This is going to sound like the wrong idea to you, but you should consider it carefully before you dismiss it.
Double your budget, then buy a single DXR15 ... new. Yamaha offers a 7 year warranty, and these speakers are darned near bullet proof out in the wild. They also put out an incredible amount of bass without a subwoofer.
Do yourself a favor, go to a local guitar center and give one a listen compared to all the speakers you could buy 2 of for $350 each. I think you will be won over if you do.
Furthermore, you will have a speaker that won't let you down even whey you do stupid things to it that should have resulted in a blown speaker.
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Another vote for 1 speaker.
This is going to sound like the wrong idea to you, but you should consider it carefully before you dismiss it.
Double your budget, then buy a single DXR15 ... new. Yamaha offers a 7 year warranty, and these speakers are darned near bullet proof out in the wild. They also put out an incredible amount of bass without a subwoofer.
Do yourself a favor, go to a local guitar center and give one a listen compared to all the speakers you could buy 2 of for $350 each. I think you will be won over if you do.
Furthermore, you will have a speaker that won't let you down even whey you do stupid things to it that should have resulted in a blown speaker.
Absolutely +1 on this. I owned a couple of these speakers and they are amazing for the price - especially for low end. Definitely a 'Buy once/cry once' purchase.
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... go to a local guitar center and give one a listen...
However, before you buy one at GC give a call to Mike Pyle at Audiopyle Sound 707-315-6204 and see if he can give you a quote. He is well respected here and sometimes he can get you a better price.
If the new DXR is still just too much $ for you right now, the link I posted for the used HPR122 for $450 shipped sounds like a fair deal. 4 years ago I paid between $500 and $550 for mine. There is a reason why they still hold their value.
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4 years ago I paid between $500 and $550 for mine. There is a reason why they still hold their value.
Yep, and I got mine for something like $600 (122s) and $700 (152s) when you factor in the rebates that QSC was offering at the time for buying them new. Can't beat that! With all the boxes I bought combined I must have collected over $1000 just in rebates alone! I'm not quite ready to give mine up though.
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Yep, and I got mine for something like $600 (122s) and $700 (152s) when you factor in the rebates that QSC was offering at the time for buying them new. Can't beat that! With all the boxes I bought combined I must have collected over $1000 just in rebates alone! I'm not quite ready to give mine up though.
We still have 5 HPR122's in monitor duty and they are loved by the clients. Really noticable over the KW122's. The crew is not fond of the weight.
I have put those HPR's out for shows that the artists were probably expecting more and got a good result. They are awesome. The amps are repairable too but you have to find a real tech.
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We still have 5 HPR122's in monitor duty and they are loved by the clients. Really noticable over the KW122's. The crew is not fond of the weight.
I have put those HPR's out for shows that the artists were probably expecting more and got a good result. They are awesome. The amps are repairable too but you have to find a real tech.
Glad to hear you've had good luck with them too. I know that the KWs are what you normally deploy for that type of work! Luckily I haven't needed any repairs whatsoever on mine. I don't find the 60 pound 122s too bad, but the 100 pound 152s are a bit much. Lifting that much weight has given me a really good reference on sizing my next speaker purchase. I'm just trying to gauge how much life these boxes have left. Never abused and handled with care, but nothing lasts forever either... Given that most of my work is of the corporate/municipal nature, failures are far less tolerated than in more casual settings.
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It seems to me that the KW's have been a step down in sound performance from the HPR's. Or maybe it's jus my natural nostalgia...
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Never abused and handled with care, but nothing lasts forever either... Given that most of my work is of the corporate/municipal nature, failures are far less tolerated than in more casual settings.
Our HPR's have led a much harder life. Crammed into mini cargo vans with those cheap covers made out of packing blankets. They have been outdoors on black decks baked into the sun on festivals. Tossed onto carts. Been filled and painted countless times and yet I don't think we have had one fail on a show.
Corporate/weddings and such we have KW's that ride in lift off cases and don't have a scratch on them.
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Our HPR's have led a much harder life. Crammed into mini cargo vans with those cheap covers made out of packing blankets. They have been outdoors on black decks baked into the sun on festivals. Tossed onto carts. Been filled and painted countless times and yet I don't think we have had one fail on a show.
Corporate/weddings and such we have KW's that ride in lift off cases and don't have a scratch on them.
Small tangent, here are the HPR's baking on a gig on the lake. https://youtu.be/TIEOItwj0XE
Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
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Small tangent, here are the HPR's baking on a gig on the lake. https://youtu.be/TIEOItwj0XE
Looks good Scott! Most of my work is outdoors so they see a fair amount of sun and heat (especially in Florida), but so far not a single issue. I just want to be sure I budget for replacements sooner than needed since I'll probably replace all my HPR boxes at one time.
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i plan on buying a single sub... therefore im thinking 10" would be fine...
maybe i should be going more for tone than volume on the lows... and clarity in the mids and highs... ive heard mackies are a little "harsh" and have a hard edge to them... does this mean theres a distortion (for lack of a better term) inherent in mackie's lows... seems liek this is the exact opposite of what i would want... especially if i do end up getting a subwoofer...
my only issue with the sudden attack of the dj trolls is the telling me to "use the gear properly and it wont break" and then in the same breath calling it useless cheap gear.. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS... is it cheap, underpowered, fragile crap, or a sophiatocated tool specially curated for your arsenal...
if the speakers are designed for a specific volume... then im not going above that... PERIOD... so as you say there shouldnt be any need for repairs...
but if the built in amp dies on me.... id like to be able to replace it... im looking for ACTIVE SPEAKERS only
lots of comments about cheap speakers being not powerful enough to fill the room? you cant buy loud budget 15" speakers?
ultimatley now its just a matter of what has the best clarity and tone... not necessarily at the EXPENSE of power, volume, bass... but certainly taking precedent...
is this what people are talking about where the speakers are punching their guts out IN A BAD WAY... a speaker might be designed to go very loud such as a 15"... but beware it will rattle and vibrate in unpleasant ways... totally seperate from the distortion that happens from blowing out the speaker... or is this considered more an consequence of bad room acoustics...
or is both wrong and this is just what happens from blowing out smaller speakers...
ive heard the yamaha dxr and the ev elv are more tone oriented than volume oriented??
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essentially ive heard ev sxa100s and yamaha dxr and dbr are more well rounded and less kick in the chest... what about larger speakers that handle higher volumes with grace... have your cake and eat it too...
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does this mean theres a distortion (for lack of a better term) inherent in mackie's lows... seems liek this is the exact opposite of what i would want... especially if i do end up getting a subwoofer...
The SRM450s are horrible in the high mids and highs, especially if you go anywhere near the limiter. There may be some low-mid cabiner resonance but nothing excessive - They're alright.
my only issue with the sudden attack of the dj trolls is the telling me to "use the gear properly and it wont break" and then in the same breath calling it useless cheap gear.. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS... is it cheap, underpowered, fragile crap, or a sophiatocated tool specially curated for your arsenal...
First of all you've got things wrong. There's no "dj trolls" on this forum. Mostly seasoned and well respected professionals that have already given you plenty of excellent advice.
If you're planning to use your speakers for heavily limited DJ music you need to run them well below their limit or you'll still be heavily abusing them without knowing. I'd say plan for at least 6dB of headroom, maybe even more. Since your music will have zero dynamics, you'll need to make sure you're running it at RMS power, or you'll be heating up and abusing the voicecoils excessively.
All speakers that are priced at $350 a pair will be "cheap, underpowered, fragile crap".
A QSC HPR box like suggested by others or anything above that would be closer to what you describe as "sophisticated tool specially curated for your arsenal".
Maybe you are the one who needs to make up his mind? You came here asking for advice. We're all in perfect agreement with each other, telling you to spend some more and get some proper tools for your job. It seems as if you just came here to justify spending $300 on a pair of crappy Behringers just so you could blame somebody when they die.
lots of comments about cheap speakers being not powerful enough to fill the room? you cant buy loud budget 15" speakers?
Speakers under $350 a pair will not fill a room at volumes DJs require whilst maintaining proper headroom, no.
I paid more than $350 for a set of very low-end nearfield monitors, designed to amplify music for just a single person.
You can go ahead and buy whatever you want, but don't expect us to support and justify your decision.
is this what people are talking about where the speakers are punching their guts out IN A BAD WAY... a speaker might be designed to go very loud such as a 15"... but beware it will rattle and vibrate in unpleasant ways... totally seperate from the distortion that happens from blowing out the speaker... or is this considered more an consequence of bad room acoustics...
or is both wrong and this is just what happens from blowing out smaller speakers...
"a speaker might be designed to go very loud such as a 15"" - just like saying "A display is designed to be very bright, like a 24""
There is absolutely no connection between the two.
When a speaker rattles, vibrates & distorts, you can be absolutely certain it is not designed to go anywhere near that volume.
Room acoustics can create some unwanted artifacts (certain notes in the low end jumping out) but usually not what you're describing.
Hope this helps and good luck with your choice. ::)
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i plan on buying a single sub... therefore im thinking 10" would be fine...
maybe i should be going more for tone than volume on the lows... and clarity in the mids and highs... ive heard mackies are a little "harsh" and have a hard edge to them... does this mean theres a distortion (for lack of a better term) inherent in mackie's lows... seems liek this is the exact opposite of what i would want... especially if i do end up getting a subwoofer...
my only issue with the sudden attack of the dj trolls is the telling me to "use the gear properly and it wont break" and then in the same breath calling it useless cheap gear.. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS... is it cheap, underpowered, fragile crap, or a sophiatocated tool specially curated for your arsenal...
if the speakers are designed for a specific volume... then im not going above that... PERIOD... so as you say there shouldnt be any need for repairs...
but if the built in amp dies on me.... id like to be able to replace it... im looking for ACTIVE SPEAKERS only
lots of comments about cheap speakers being not powerful enough to fill the room? you cant buy loud budget 15" speakers?
ultimatley now its just a matter of what has the best clarity and tone... not necessarily at the EXPENSE of power, volume, bass... but certainly taking precedent...
is this what people are talking about where the speakers are punching their guts out IN A BAD WAY... a speaker might be designed to go very loud such as a 15"... but beware it will rattle and vibrate in unpleasant ways... totally seperate from the distortion that happens from blowing out the speaker... or is this considered more an consequence of bad room acoustics...
or is both wrong and this is just what happens from blowing out smaller speakers...
ive heard the yamaha dxr and the ev elv are more tone oriented than volume oriented??
I'm sorry but this is basically incomprehensible. Your terms are subjective and you don't have a grasp on basic audio concepts. If you want to up your game in a meaningful way you have to study.
But you really don't need to be an audio expert to play music back in a small room. What you do have to do is take some advice. You were given quite a bit of it. You still are generalizing on manufacturers. Mackie doesn't have a specific sound nor does Yamaha or JBL. All of them make great products and a few clunkers.
When you get to the price point you are searching for you can buy a decent set of home speakers. The idea to buy one speaker and then budget for the other was a great one. You didn't even comment on that.
The size of a speaker also tells little about it. You can't assume a speaker produces higher output or lower extension just by driver size. It's as meaningless as amplifier output power.
As mentioned if you double your budget you can purchase one speaker that is at the very entry level of what one would consider a professional product. Something that is well built and can withstand the rigors of being setup and transported frequently.
Advice is free, take it or leave it. No matter how many times you ask the answer will be the same.
BTW, if you want good advice you should show respect and at least make an attempt at spelling, punctuation and grammar.
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I'll hold back and wait for the real experts here to pick apart what you've said, but in short, the size of a woofer and amount of power is meaningless when determining how loud a speaker can get and what it'll sound like when pushed to the upper limit of its performance range. Filling a room has nothing to do with woofer size either. To be perfectly honest, if you're asking these types of questions it'll be very much to your benefit to learn how a large(ish) format sound system works first and understand how to properly size/deploy one before spending any money. Trust me, this is one of those things you want to get right the first time. Or...you can go buy something cheap from Craigslist or Guitar Center and hope for the best. Your choice!
Using quality gear versus using gear properly? Yes. It's a bit of give and take, at least in my experience. There's a QSC video out there that shows amps and speakers being tossed off a roof and still working fine. That's a bit extreme, but professional equipment (or high end prosumer level) designed for life on the road can generally take more abuse than something you buy at Walmart or Best Buy. At the same time, if you push something beyond its intended limit of operation there's a good chance you'll break it. Again, some gear can tolerate this better than others. Try as you might, accidents will happen. Do you really want to be replacing parts every time someone hot-swaps a 1/4" or forgets to turn off the speakers before the mixer? Gear falling out of your truck/van/trailer? It happens.
I know this discussion isn't going as you intended, but us DJ Trolls have actually been quite gentle...
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We're all in perfect agreement to each other...
Three of us type a response at the same time...all saying basically the same thing in different words? Yep!
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All other things being equal, a bigger driver can move more air (and therefore produce more bass) than a smaller driver.
However, larger drivers also demand lower crossover frequencies to the next driver up (the large cones aren't great through the midrange, so something else needs to come in and cover it), meaning the manufacturer must use a larger compression driver or the midrange will suffer.
I'd rather have a 12"/1" box over a 15"/1" box, but I'd take a 15"/2" box over both of those for your application.
For your budget, if you really shop around carefully, you might (might) be able to get a used pair of Yamaha DBR10s. Those are the absolute minimum in Active Speakers Worth Having IMO (unless that Alto 12" coaxial stage monitor is cheaper). They sound okay and I rent out a single one with a 21" sub for house party use. I know they rag it. Comes back fine every time.
They don't put out much bass. They'll do background music just fine, but I wouldn't expect people to dance much. They'll need subwoofers, and the sooner the better.
Chris
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Did Joseph somewhere along the way state what he was planning to use these for? I see DJ referenced in responses but I'm not seeing that in any of his posts?
I find it interesting that DJs get the greatest return on their investment, since they have so little gear to buy in the first place but are the most reluctant to buy quality gear. Would not a $350 investment pay for itself in a gig or two even for someone just starting out?
If he can manage to get thru a half dozen gigs or so he surely would have enough money saved up to buy decent speakers, but yet his business plan is for the $350 speakers to last forever. That is not long term sustainable business model.
Joseph,
If you're serious about whatever it is you plan to do with these speakers you need to treat it like a real business.
Here is what is going to happen if you continue down your current path:
You will have failures during paid gigs and will have no way to recover. Then you will have to struggle twice as hard to rebuild your reputation. Plus, by using mediocre performing equipment ;you will hold yourself at the lowest pay level, perhaps indefinitely.
If you really are limited to $350 right now, scour craigslist for used speakers. If you find what looks to be a good deal, post on the forum for opinions. There will be no shortage of them, and in the future you will be grateful you asked for them.
As soon as you start working with your "cheap" speakers and are making money, put as much money back as possible to buy decent gear and BACKUP gear. High quality gear not only sounds better and in theory should also break down less, but without a plan in place to handle potential break downs you will inevitably be facing an upset client because you have not prepared properly for potential gear problems.
Properly prepared does not mean the gig temporarily shuts down while you repair a piece of equipment. Properly prepared means you grab a spare piece of gear, swap it in and the gig goes on, with minimal downtime.
I have not DJ'd in a long time but on the rare occasion I do, I carry a spare mixer, a spare laptop w/a duplicate hard drive and spare speakers. Literally an entire second system.
"Oh, it seems this speaker is not working properly, I'll grab another from the trailer" is much easier for the client to take than "We'll just have to do the rest of the night with only one speaker, sorry about that."
You will not create a successful business by only doing the minimum required.
Final thought since you are new here: The people here giving you advice are not just trying to put you down, or show off how much they know. Most of the people here have made some poor decisions along the way are are truly trying to stop you from making the same ones.
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sorry, if my punctuation is sloppy, i am typing with one finger on a surface pro 4.... very tedious... trying to keep up... some can see the point others absolutely cant, i am more than willing to take advice and not just look for confirmation of what i want to hearnand of the idea of me getting cheap gear... although in the same breath i do believe the point of properly using said cheap gear i apparently shouldnt get was brought up... (her we go)
at this point with the prospect of getting subs... i probably dont need something with loud lows... not sure if this is a size thing, or otherwise but i do know i need something with more loudness and clarity in the mids and highs... if i find 1 prosumer speaker for a good price with these characteristics (what would that be) id pull the trigger...
t
ebay has mackie srm 357s for 350\pair... youre telling me this is utter crap? i thought these were widely considered solid beginner speakers hated by zomemloved by others... but certainly is it just me or is there a difference between $400 eons, srm450s etc... and 100 behringers... or am i wrong on this distinction
when i asked a pretty professional band at a larger venue yesterday the sound guy was like BUY EONS...
at this point though im pretty sure i need something with better highs and mids, im raising my standards a little but with less power/loudness???? due to eventual subs...
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RENT
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ive got it narrowed down between jbl psr series, qsc k series, yamaha dsr series,
apparently psr holds up better than qsc k when pushed... yamaha dsr are also apparently better speakers than k series...
ultimatwly what has the most clarity and less corners cut on mids and highs as opposed to bass (since im getting a sub)
furthermore what will sound less muddy when pushed to the max level its designed to go factoring in headroom etc... (whatever the pros define this level as)
could i get away with k8 with a sub? or no
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Hot damn, I sure missed some fun today!!
And even more today it seems Ray!...
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RENT
This, rent until you can buy something decent.
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ive got it narrowed down between jbl psr series, qsc k series, yamaha dsr series,
apparently psr holds up better than qsc k when pushed... yamaha dsr are also apparently better speakers than k series...
ultimatwly what has the most clarity and less corners cut on mids and highs as opposed to bass (since im getting a sub)
furthermore what will sound less muddy when pushed to the max level its designed to go factoring in headroom etc... (whatever the pros define this level as)
Out of those three, the Yamaha DSR is the pick for clarity and loudness. The JBL PRX700/800 is a good pick but it uses a smaller HF driver. QSC K (1st gen) runs out of gas easily when pushed on higher levels.
If you got the cash, I would spring for the JBL SRX800P series.
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Three of us type a response at the same time...all saying basically the same thing in different words? Yep!
Exactly, Lol!
Did Joseph somewhere along the way state what he was planning to use these for? I see DJ referenced in responses but I'm not seeing that in any of his posts?
It's in the title and OP, got me confused at first as well ::)
ebay has mackie srm 357s for 350\pair... youre telling me this is utter crap? i thought these were widely considered solid beginner speakers hated by zomemloved by others... but certainly is it just me or is there a difference between $400 eons, srm450s etc... and 100 behringers... or am i wrong on this distinction
I assume you mean SRM350s?
There's a huge difference between a $250 Behringer box and a $450 EV ZLX box. And there's a huge difference between a $450 EV ZLX box and a $1200 QSC KW box. And a huge difference between a $1200 QSC KW box and a $3000 Danley box + $2k in amps.
All those boxes could be used to do the same gig;
- The Behringers would have to be pushed all the way to the limiter, they'd sound absolutely horrible, and they'd consequently fail a few months (or weeks, or days) later. Probably wouldn't be loud enough either.
- The EVs would have to be pushed quite far as well, probably flashing the limiter lights every so often. They'd probably sound very bad at those levels as well and if you were to be using heavily compressed DJ material the drivers wouldn't be "happy" for long. Overall they would do the job (just barely), at least for a while.
- The QSCs would be ideal for the job. Enough headroom left to be running comfortably, and they would function and sound like they were designed to do. Nothing more, nothing less. Just ideal.
- The Danleys would be an overkill. Excellent quality and headroom for days, but way too expensive for such use. You could do a similar job with a pair of much cheaper speakers, no reason to go for something like this unless your clients are willing to pay for it (which they aren't)
ive got it narrowed down between jbl psr series, qsc k series, yamaha dsr series,
apparently psr holds up better than qsc k when pushed... yamaha dsr are also apparently better speakers than k series...
ultimatwly what has the most clarity and less corners cut on mids and highs as opposed to bass (since im getting a sub)
furthermore what will sound less muddy when pushed to the max level its designed to go factoring in headroom etc... (whatever the pros define this level as)
could i get away with k8 with a sub? or no
(I assume you mean PRX?)
Any of them will be great choices. I'd go for QSC K just because I've used them, but they all seem to be well-liked around here. You can't really go wrong with any of them. I'd say a pair of K10s and a proper sub would be just fine. :)
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Tell us (perhaps again) what you really want to do with your system both short and long term, and also what you think your budget might really be both short and long term. How much $ are you willing to spend right now, 2nd purchase, and total over 5-10 years?
The people here will offer plans that will attempt to maximize value, minimize wasteful spending over the long term, and work toward achieving your goals.
Because you included DJ in your title, are you thinking EDM type music, or something a little less demanding such as pop/rock top 40, or even less demanding such as background music with just a little more coverage than a home stereo.
Are you in a band? If so, what type of band?
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About double your budget, but these are great speakers. Don't read the specs and decide that they won't work until you actually hear them. These things rock with very little power.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-EV-Electro-voice-SXa250-Powered-15-Speakers-Monitor-Wedge-Comes-With-Covers-/162592924216?hash=item25db4b2238:g:3WMAAOSw~rpZQwW8
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About double your budget, but these are great speakers. Don't read the specs and decide that they won't work until you actually hear them. These things rock with very little power.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-EV-Electro-voice-SXa250-Powered-15-Speakers-Monitor-Wedge-Comes-With-Covers-/162592924216?hash=item25db4b2238:g:3WMAAOSw~rpZQwW8
I have 6 of these left. They're the real deal. They're for sale...
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ive got it narrowed down between jbl psr series, qsc k series, yamaha dsr series,
apparently psr holds up better than qsc k when pushed... yamaha dsr are also apparently better speakers than k series...
ultimatwly what has the most clarity and less corners cut on mids and highs as opposed to bass (since im getting a sub)
furthermore what will sound less muddy when pushed to the max level its designed to go factoring in headroom etc... (whatever the pros define this level as)
could i get away with k8 with a sub? or no
I am confused here. Perhaps you can help me out.
Pretty much everything you just stated is true IME. You do realize the MAP of a single DSR112 is $900 (nearly 3 times your stated budget)? Don't get me wrong, I am sitting in my basement across from a couple of them and consider them the best sub 1K speaker on the market. I am just wondering if the parameters of your request have changed?
Let me ask a few questions and see where we are perhaps?
- What is your budget?
- Do you intend to buy 1 or more subs within that budget?
- Are you planning on doing DJ music involving modern dance music?
I can't really be of much help without knowing these three parameters.
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basically want to dj 50 person bars, and eventually do classic rock bands... with electronic drums run through pa... and not mic guitar amps... instead using powerful enough guitar amps to not mic them... or somtimes running guitar through mackie onyx 1640i firewire mixer and adding effects in computer... so speakers may be called upon to handle guitar.... will be getting a subwoofer...
i guess i need somwthing with lots of headroom toget the cleanest possible tone and fullness....
what is up with the 15/1 "....12/2".... etc... what is best if im getting a subwoofer later... shouldnt i get something with 2" highs and mids
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Exactly, Lol!
It's in the title and OP, got me confused at first as well ::)
I assume you mean SRM350s?
There's a huge difference between a $250 Behringer box and a $450 EV ZLX box. And there's a huge difference between a $450 EV ZLX box and a $1200 QSC KW box. And a huge difference between a $1200 QSC KW box and a $3000 Danley box + $2k in amps.
All those boxes could be used to do the same gig;
- The Behringers would have to be pushed all the way to the limiter, they'd sound absolutely horrible, and they'd consequently fail a few months (or weeks, or days) later. Probably wouldn't be loud enough either.
- The EVs would have to be pushed quite far as well, probably flashing the limiter lights every so often. They'd probably sound very bad at those levels as well and if you were to be using heavily compressed DJ material the drivers wouldn't be "happy" for long. Overall they would do the job (just barely), at least for a while.
- The QSCs would be ideal for the job. Enough headroom left to be running comfortably, and they would function and sound like they were designed to do. Nothing more, nothing less. Just ideal.
- The Danleys would be an overkill. Excellent quality and headroom for days, but way too expensive for such use. You could do a similar job with a pair of much cheaper speakers, no reason to go for something like this unless your clients are willing to pay for it (which they aren't)
(I assume you mean PRX?)
Any of them will be great choices. I'd go for QSC K just because I've used them, but they all seem to be well-liked around here. You can't really go wrong with any of them. I'd say a pair of K10s and a proper sub would be just fine. :)
Hmm...in the past few weeks I have heard QSC K and KW series used outside and do the QSC 'choking' midrange thing...and get worse as time went on. They are my least favorite.
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basically want to dj 50 person bars, and eventually do classic rock bands... with electronic drums run through pa... and not mic guitar amps... instead using powerful enough guitar amps to not mic them... or somtimes running guitar through mackie onyx 1640i firewire mixer and adding effects in computer... so speakers may be called upon to handle guitar.... will be getting a subwoofer...
i guess i need somwthing with lots of headroom toget the cleanest possible tone and fullness....
what is up with the 15/1 "....12/2".... etc... what is best if im getting a subwoofer later... shouldnt i get something with 2" highs and mids
... and your budget?
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As a lounger level guy who is slowly crawling my way towards being a professional, I can recommend a couple things:
1) find someone local that is successfully doing the type of work that you would like to be doing and talk to them. See how they got where they are and what equipment they are using. Building relationships is important in any business and is particularly so in the audio world. I get more gigs from bands I work with and other audio companies than anywhere else.
2) educate yourself. It takes time and effort, but the more you learn, the more capable you will be of making good decisions. Audio is a complicated animal. A basic understanding of acoustics and electronics is necessary (IMO) to provide professional services to our customers.
3) don't cheap out. It takes money to make money. To get set up to run sound for local bands in 100-200 seat venues will take somewhere around $15,000 worth of equipment. If you buy GOOD used equipment, you can reduce that amount some, but many of the things you will need are difficult to find in the used market. I have over $1000 in cabling, over $1000 in mics, over $1000 in cases, covers and trunks. If you don't have experience running sound for bands, I strongly recommend you offering to schlep gear and wrap cords with a local sound company so you get an idea about what it takes to provide sound for a band. Look around stage and start adding up gear. It's expensive.
If all you want is a speaker recommendation for a small club level system, the most recommended small system around here is a pair of DSR112 over a pair of PRX618S-XLF. Call Mike Pyle for pricing.
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As a lounger level guy who is slowly crawling my way towards being a professional, I can recommend a couple things:
1) find someone local that is successfully doing the type of work that you would like to be doing and talk to them. See how they got where they are and what equipment they are using. Building relationships is important in any business and is particularly so in the audio world. I get more gigs from bands I work with and other audio companies than anywhere else.
2) educate yourself. It takes time and effort, but the more you learn, the more capable you will be of making good decisions. Audio is a complicated animal. A basic understanding of acoustics and electronics is necessary (IMO) to provide professional services to our customers.
3) don't cheap out. It takes money to make money. To get set up to run sound for local bands in 100-200 seat venues will take somewhere around $15,000 worth of equipment. If you buy GOOD used equipment, you can reduce that amount some, but many of the things you will need are difficult to find in the used market. I have over $1000 in cabling, over $1000 in mics, over $1000 in cases, covers and trunks. If you don't have experience running sound for bands, I strongly recommend you offering to schlep gear and wrap cords with a local sound company so you get an idea about what it takes to provide sound for a band. Look around stage and start adding up gear. It's expensive.
If all you want is a speaker recommendation for a small club level system, the most recommended small system around here is a pair of DSR112 over a pair of PRX618S-XLF. Call Mike Pyle for pricing.
+10 on getting on with another company and seeing what it takes. You said bands and DJ's so assuming you are hiring out you need capabale gear. Tell us more about your biz plan.
Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk
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basically want to dj 50 person bars, and eventually do classic rock bands... with electronic drums run through pa...
DJ: what kind of music? IMO You need a bigger subwoofer for EDM than classic rock. Even if running electronic drums through the PA.
what is up with the 15/1 "....12/2".... etc...
Some manufacturers state the size of the woofer, and the number of speakers / frequency bands in the box.
The HPR 122 is a 12 inch woofer 2 way box. 152 is 15 inch 2 way. 153 is 15 inch 3 way.
With the DSR mains the 112 is 1 12 inch woofer. (It is still a 2 way box with a horn for the higher frequencies.)
For subs, the extra number often represents the number of speakers.
what is best if im getting a subwoofer later... shouldnt i get something with 2" highs and mids
How much later, and what will you try to do with just the mains.
If it is going to be a while, then a 15 inch main will be better short term to get a little bit better bass. Once you have a sub, a 12 inch main is what most people prefer. Depending on the venue and music, some even go to a 10 inch main, but most people don't want to keep both the 10 and 12 in the inventory so just use the 12 for both.
It would help us give you a better plan if you tell us your real budget and business plan.
Are you really planning this as a business, hobby business, or is it really something else.
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Wow... after the initial crass responses (actually, well deserved) about the idea of the "best cheap dj/band speakers" I applaud (pun intended ) and agree with the rest of the responses.
My advice (FWIW) is: Spend about $700-$1000 for ONE powered 12" top and about double that for ONE , I repeat ONE, powered sub. There ain't no way around it. Run mono (near a corner, or near the center of a wall - it doesn't matter because it will fit either), with your *Insert Music Source Here* next to it.
Learn what it does, then decide if you actually need (and can cost-justify) a "mirror" set (or maybe, stereo). Then, buy another matching 12" top. Your audience WILL listen with their eyes, unfortunately, or/and you may need wider coverage.
The last thing to purchase, if you need it, would be a 2nd matching sub.
-Dennis
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Wow... after the initial crass responses (actually, well deserved) about the idea of the "best cheap dj/band speakers" I applaud (pun intended ) and agree with the rest of the responses.
My advice (FWIW) is: Spend about $700-$1000 for ONE powered 12" top and about double that for ONE , I repeat ONE, powered sub. There ain't no way around it. Run mono (near a corner, or near the center of a wall - it doesn't matter because it will fit either), with your *Insert Music Source Here* next to it.
Learn what it does, then decide if you actually need (and can cost-justify) a "mirror" set (or maybe, stereo). Then, buy another matching 12" top. Your audience WILL listen with their eyes, unfortunately, or/and you may need wider coverage.
The last thing to purchase, if you need it, would be a 2nd matching sub.
-Dennis
+1
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Hmm...in the past few weeks I have heard QSC K and KW series used outside and do the QSC 'choking' midrange thing...and get worse as time went on. They are my least favorite.
Were you actually mixing yourself or just heard them? There's a difference.
I've had fantastic results using K12s and KSubs indoors at levels with good headroom. I've heard another guy push KW152s as far as they would go (limiter lights on all the time) outdoors - not so great, but still very, very passable.
I've had to run SRM450s hard into the limiters once, absolutely horrible experience. Not even remotely close to the KWs. Heck, even Meyer cabs start to suffer when they start limiting. Maybe DSR or PRX cabs are slightly better in some regards, but I haven't used them - And I wouldn't want to get anywhere near their limiters, just like with any other box.
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what is up with the 15/1 "....12/2".... etc... what is best if im getting a subwoofer later... shouldnt i get something with 2" highs and mids
I guess that's my fault.
The first number describes the size of the midbass driver, the second number describes the exit diameter of the compression driver. Bigger compression drivers can go lower/louder/cleaner, so IMO they're best used where you've got a 15" midbass driver which won't go up into the midrange too well.
A 12" driver can work with a 1" compression driver just fine.
A 15" with a 2" works, too.
A 15" with a 1" is, IMO, asking a 15" to go too high, and/or a 1" to go too low. The midrange will suffer (whether in power response, distortion, or both).
Jumping from DJing for 50 people (you still haven't said if it'll be background music or a rave) to mixing classic rock is going to be a very different set of equipment. The main PA might be roughly similar, but DJing is usually a laptop and a controller, maybe running through a notepad mixer out to the PA. Classic rock would need mics, stands, stage monitors,, a proper desk, and all the associated cabling.
A DJ in small venues might run a pair of 12" subs and 8" tops. For live rock, that's a drum monitor.
Turning the amps up loud enough to "cover the audience" is a bad idea IME. They'll melt the faces off the front couple of rows, and the people at the back won't hear a thing. Humans are very good at absorbing sound. The whole reason we aim to get the main speakers above the heads of the audience is so that everyone can hear what's coming out of the PA system.
I'm assuming, of course, it'll be a packed venue. If the guitar amps are set to "stun", it won't stay packed for long, but the dispersed crowds will have a fairly low absorption coefficient so at least they'll be heard at the back by the end of the night.
Another thing - dispersion. PA speakers are designed to spread sound evenly across their coverage angle. If you've got a guitar amp to hand, play a chord and then move your head across the front of the speaker. Note how bright the sound is when you're directly in front of the cabinet, and yet how mellow it is everywhere else.
You're actively aiming some of that laserbeam of bright piercing sound at the audience, and then you're planning to make it louder! Some of the audience will go deaf, or leave with ringing in their ears. Other parts of the audience might not hear the guitar much at all.
In conclusion, turning guitar amps up loud is a bad idea, for a variety of reasons.
Chris
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My response I posted in the DJ Forum for the same question:
This is a field where "You get what you pay for" most certainly applies. Loud, reliable, cheap - pick any two, there are no "Unicorn speakers" that can do everything all the time for next to nothing cost.
Cheap means a lot of different things to a lot of people. My recommendation for loud & reliable would be the QSC lines, sound better & reliable, the EV ZLX & ETX lines and the Yamaha DBR & DXR series. Subs - the QSC 18 (not K-Sub) and Yorkville LS lines are practically bulletproof.
Whatever you end up getting, learn how to properly use them withing their limitations, otherwise you will be blowing up drivers.
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With a little more detail (and hopefully a little more of a reality check for the O.P.) I would recommend:
1 pair of Yamaha DSR 112s. Very clear, very loud, great warranty. You would not need to upgrade these for a long time, if ever.
Subs - Yorkville LS800p or LS801p. More boom for the buck than any other subwoofer under $1500. One would suffice in most of the places you will play. Sounds good with the yamahas (I have this same setup). Downside, the sub is big and bulky & a bit boomy but it never fails to impress, especially for DJ/EDM/Hip Hop playback.
A possible option for you is to grab the Yamahas from somewhere like ZZounds that has a payment plan - you can get a pair of DSR112s for under $150/month. You should be able to find a Yorkie sub for under $800 used. More than you want to spend but that system will sound good, get very loud, be reliable, and cover everything you stated you want to do.
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My response I posted in the DJ Forum for the same question:
This is a field where "You get what you pay for" most certainly applies. Loud, reliable, cheap - pick any two, there are no "Unicorn speakers" that can do everything all the time for next to nothing cost.
Cheap means a lot of different things to a lot of people. My recommendation for loud & reliable would be the QSC lines, sound better & reliable, the EV ZLX & ETX lines and the Yamaha DBR & DXR series. Subs - the QSC 18 (not K-Sub) and Yorkville LS lines are practically bulletproof.
Whatever you end up getting, learn how to properly use them withing their limitations, otherwise you will be blowing up drivers.
---
With a little more detail (and hopefully a little more of a reality check for the O.P.) I would recommend:
1 pair of Yamaha DSR 112s. Very clear, very loud, great warranty. You would not need to upgrade these for a long time, if ever.
Subs - Yorkville LS800p or LS801p. More boom for the buck than any other subwoofer under $1500. One would suffice in most of the places you will play. Sounds good with the yamahas (I have this same setup). Downside, the sub is big and bulky & a bit boomy but it never fails to impress, especially for DJ/EDM/Hip Hop playback.
A possible option for you is to grab the Yamahas from somewhere like ZZounds that has a payment plan - you can get a pair of DSR112s for under $150/month. You should be able to find a Yorkie sub for under $800 used. More than you want to spend but that system will sound good, get very loud, be reliable, and cover everything you stated you want to do.
I think that you would have to pay 2-4 times the money to beat that system for EDM.
That being said, a pair of DSR's and a pair of LS801p's aren't really "cheep".
If size and weight are not a factor, and the budget is ~2K, then a single one of each would be impressive indeed for EDM.
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If you were my friend, I would tell you that "Friends don't let friends buy junk."
The truth is hard to hear sometime when you are on a budget.
The responses you are receiving may sound abrasive, but are all based upon years of experience.
Please take them in the spirit intended.
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Jumping from DJing for 50 people (you still haven't said if it'll be background music or a rave) to mixing classic rock is going to be a very different set of equipment. The main PA might be roughly similar, but DJing is usually a laptop and a controller, maybe running through a notepad mixer out to the PA. Classic rock would need mics, stands, stage monitors,, a proper desk, and all the associated cabling.
A DJ in small venues might run a pair of 12" subs and 8" tops. For live rock, that's a drum monitor
i have a numark ns7 with a laptop and an odyssey case, stands etc... hoping to get a foldup wall thingy djs use...
for bands not using a pa amplifyer..... hence the discussion is about active speakers... i have a mackie onyx 1640i analog mixer with firewire connection to a laptop to ableton for effects and the option of recording gigs... the output from the computer is 16 channels not just 2 stereo outputs... so you can send all 16 tracks into and out of the laptop to be routed however you want from the mixer to whatever buses and speakers you decide...
im using an electronic drum set so no need to mic drums it just gets plugged directly into the mixer...
i have 2 vocal mics for singers... probably not gonna use more than that we're not the beatles...
along with some combo amps for bass, guitar, etc...
like i said im looking for mains that are GREAT for treble and mids... im getting a subwoofer... so it seems pointless to be worrying about the bass on the mains... id rather sacrifice that fully for something with amazing treble and clarity...
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Were you actually mixing yourself or just heard them? There's a difference.
I've had fantastic results using K12s and KSubs indoors at levels with good headroom. I've heard another guy push KW152s as far as they would go (limiter lights on all the time) outdoors - not so great, but still very, very passable.
I've had to run SRM450s hard into the limiters once, absolutely horrible experience. Not even remotely close to the KWs. Heck, even Meyer cabs start to suffer when they start limiting. Maybe DSR or PRX cabs are slightly better in some regards, but I haven't used them - And I wouldn't want to get anywhere near their limiters, just like with any other box.
I haven't used the KW but I can confirm John's experience on the K gen 1 series, when "pushed harder" the top end just suffers and everything gets muffled. K-SUB is a bandpass sub exhibiting a "one note wonder" when doing live bands.
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Ahhhh, where to start.
i have a numark ns7 with a laptop and an odyssey case, stands etc... hoping to get a foldup wall thingy djs use...
Good, get that foldup wall thingy. It will really help to improve your sound!
for bands not using a pa amplifier..... hence the discussion is about active speakers... i have a mackie onyx 1640i analog mixer with firewire connection to a laptop to ableton for effects and the option of recording gigs... the output from the computer is 16 channels not just 2 stereo outputs... so you can send all 16 tracks into and out of the laptop to be routed however you want from the mixer to whatever buses and speakers you decide...
(Fixed the spelling error)
Well, "band not using a PA amplifier" =/= "requirement to use active speakers." Just so you know. As a professional (giggles) sound provider (snorts), you provide what you provide- whether it's passive or active. Which one is better for you? Well, it depends on your skill set and how competent you are in ensuring that the protection for a passive rig is sufficient. Sometimes, you get boxes (think JBL VerTec and presets for the Crown I-Tech HD amplifiers) that make the process simple for you. Other times, you get to work out appropriate limiting yourself. With active speakers, true, a lot of that guess work has been taken care of for you, but if one were to die during a show, it's easier to swap out an amp channel at the amp rack than it would be to replace an entire speaker. [And especially if the speakers are flown!!]
To be absolutely blunt, if I was in your shoes, I would focus on getting the basics of live sound down before playing with effects and recording. Just a thought.
im using an electronic drum set so no need to mic drums it just gets plugged directly into the mixer...
So no way to adjust the balance of the various drums? Wooooo!
i have 2 vocal mics for singers... probably not gonna use more than that we're not the beatles...
I suspect if these were the Beatles, you wouldn't be their first call for mix engineer...
But really. That statement was non-sensical. PLENTY of regular "average, All-American Bands" use more than 2 vocals... Just saying.
along with some combo amps for bass, guitar, etc...
So you'll need DI boxes/mics for these as well. A "regular" mic/DI package can easily be $2k. [Think 4 SM58s, 4 SM57s, couple of mono passive DIs, couple of stereo passive DIs, 2-3 drum mics, couple of condensers for overheads, a kick mic. That's $2200 or so if you get everything at street price, Raidal DIs, Sennheiser drum clip mics, couple of e614s for OH, a Beta52A for kick.]
like i said im looking for mains that are GREAT for treble and mids... im getting a subwoofer... so it seems pointless to be worrying about the bass on the mains... id rather sacrifice that fully for something with amazing treble and clarity...
... and you've been given suggestions multiple times as to what speakers to purchase. Just the one thing: they're not $175 each. Maybe this is our fault, and no one has been candid enough to state this: If you want to make *one* purchase that will last you for 3-5+ years, then you're not going to accomplish that for $175 each. It's just not going to happen. As they say, fast, good, and cheap- pick any two. Yes, there are $175 speakers out there. But the quality won't be what you're looking for. Will they survive? Maybe. That depends on your skills as the operator. No speaker is 100% bullet-proof. But, similarly, no speaker is 100% guaranteed to not last more than one show.
Here's my thought: Take a day or two and reflect on everything you've been told. And then, start a new thread and let's hash out a realistic plan of a) what you need to get and b) how much you can spend to accomplish this. Let us know what EXACTLY you have now (speakers, amps, mics, stands, XLR/Speakon cabling, wedges, consoles, etc). Then we can create a list prioritizing your purchase needs.
-Ray
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"...and ice cream castles in the air..."
...Joanie Mitchell
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Ahhhh, where to start.Good, get that foldup wall thingy. It will really help to improve your sound!
(Fixed the spelling error)
Well, "band not using a PA amplifier" =/= "requirement to use active speakers." Just so you know. As a professional (giggles) sound provider (snorts), you provide what you provide- whether it's passive or active. Which one is better for you? Well, it depends on your skill set and how competent you are in ensuring that the protection for a passive rig is sufficient. Sometimes, you get boxes (think JBL VerTec and presets for the Crown I-Tech HD amplifiers) that make the process simple for you. Other times, you get to work out appropriate limiting yourself. With active speakers, true, a lot of that guess work has been taken care of for you, but if one were to die during a show, it's easier to swap out an amp channel at the amp rack than it would be to replace an entire speaker. [And especially if the speakers are flown!!]
To be absolutely blunt, if I was in your shoes, I would focus on getting the basics of live sound down before playing with effects and recording. Just a thought.
So no way to adjust the balance of the various drums? Wooooo!
I suspect if these were the Beatles, you wouldn't be their first call for mix engineer...
But really. That statement was non-sensical. PLENTY of regular "average, All-American Bands" use more than 2 vocals... Just saying.
So you'll need DI boxes/mics for these as well. A "regular" mic/DI package can easily be $2k. [Think 4 SM58s, 4 SM57s, couple of mono passive DIs, couple of stereo passive DIs, 2-3 drum mics, couple of condensers for overheads, a kick mic. That's $2200 or so if you get everything at street price, Raidal DIs, Sennheiser drum clip mics, couple of e614s for OH, a Beta52A for kick.]
... and you've been given suggestions multiple times as to what speakers to purchase. Just the one thing: they're not $175 each. Maybe this is our fault, and no one has been candid enough to state this: If you want to make *one* purchase that will last you for 3-5+ years, then you're not going to accomplish that for $175 each. It's just not going to happen. As they say, fast, good, and cheap- pick any two. Yes, there are $175 speakers out there. But the quality won't be what you're looking for. Will they survive? Maybe. That depends on your skills as the operator. No speaker is 100% bullet-proof. But, similarly, no speaker is 100% guaranteed to not last more than one show.
Here's my thought: Take a day or two and reflect on everything you've been told. And then, start a new thread and let's hash out a realistic plan of a) what you need to get and b) how much you can spend to accomplish this. Let us know what EXACTLY you have now (speakers, amps, mics, stands, XLR/Speakon cabling, wedges, consoles, etc). Then we can create a list prioritizing your purchase needs.
-Ray
Something else for thought..
If I was out on a night off and listening to music (live or DJ) I would not stay more than 30 minutes no matter how good the artist is, because of the terrible sound that $150 speakers put out, especially when being over driven, as they usually are. You don't have to be running a $20k+ rig but it at least has to sound decent. Real bad audio will only hurt what you are trying to do by driving people away because of the harshness, distortion, etc...
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along with some combo amps for bass, guitar, etc...
Please, no.
Go back and read what I said about this. I promise it's just a bad idea, unless you've found some magical way of making a guitar amp spread its sound evenly around a venue that doesn't involve micing it and putting it through a speaker system that's the right tool for the job.
I've argued this with guitarists before. One of them insisted on using his 1x12" combo, no mics allowed. It was sat on the floor facing forwards.
The front row's knees probably heard it, but it was almost entirely inaudible at the back. Seriously.
The rest of the instruments (going through the PA) were heard just fine everywhere.
Chris
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Joseph,
If you're serious about whatever it is you plan to do with these speakers you need to treat it like a real business.
Here is what is going to happen if you continue down your current path:
You will have failures during paid gigs and will have no way to recover. Then you will have to struggle twice as hard to rebuild your reputation. Plus, by using mediocre performing equipment; you will hold yourself at the lowest pay level, perhaps indefinitely.
Joseph,
Reinforcing this point in case you missed it in the original post and all the similar statements made by others since then which apparently you aren't very open to. If you're hellbent on going about this the wrong way you are not going to get any moral support here. From your last post you seem to already have a plan of attack which based on your convoluted statements seems destined to fail as it simply doesn't make good sense.
Re-read this entire thread and then open yourself up to the possibility that either you have no idea what you are doing or aren't very good at communicating it, then re-read the entire thread again.
Then take Ray's advise and start a new thread to work out a real plan that begins with you asking advice to creating a new viable plan, not asking how to accomplish the foolhardy plan you already have come up with.
There are gems of wisdom in this thread and many other threads on this forum that could save you years of making mistakes and tons of money making them. Every moment you spend here is worth it, even if in your mind is seems that you are just arguing back and forth with the members.
Right after I first joined I was very argumentative in a multi page thread about why SPL matters and watts don't until my thick skull finally understood why my question about how many watts I needed was simply the wrong question to ask. It is initially very hard to acknowledge to yourself that your preconceived ideas may be founded in nonsensical logic. If you're smart you'll eventually learn to love to be proven wrong. I learn new things on this forum every day.
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when "pushed harder"
My point exactly. When pushed hard. All speakers suffer when pushed hard. Some may suffer more, some may suffer less. I've heard Meyers suffer just as bad as those KWs I'm describing, I've heard SRM450s suffer MUCH more. Yamaha or JBL boxes may suffer less, that doesn't mean I'd want to use them anywhere near their limiter. They'll still suffer, even slightly.
I'm not saying the QSCs are a better choice, I'm saying that's all I've used and thus can recommend. :)
K-SUB is a bandpass sub exhibiting a "one note wonder" when doing live bands.
I've only used them in a somewhat problematic room, but got lots of compliments on the kick & bass sound that day ( vocals not so much ::) ). I've also heard them outdoors once, they were actually very impressive. Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't find anything wrong about them, really. ???
Maybe they don't go horribly low like a dual 18", but they certainly didn't sound "one-note" to me. Have you actually heard those as well, or is it just an assumption based on the design? Not all bandpass boxes are created equal... Just seems odd that you'd describe them as "one-note".
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I've set up K-subs (with K-12 tops, it's what GC rented some friends) in a 600 seat, fairly damped, theater for a dance company recital and they worked pretty darn well. Music for these runs the gamut from recent hip-hop to things they had on cassettes from years ago. I heard more that one note. In fact, I think my Cubo subs are peakier without eq. Maybe QSC has tamed them in the DSP a bit. My Yamaha DXS12 has more than one note in it as well. Although I primarily use it as a drum sub so it wouldn't matter if it did.
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Reinforcing this point in case you missed it in the original post and all the similar statements made by others since then which apparently you aren't very open to. If you're hellbent on going about this the wrong way you are not going to get any moral support here. From your last post you seem to already have a plan of attack which based on your convoluted statements seems destined to fail as it simply doesn't make good sense.
Then take Ray's advise and start a new thread to work out a real plan that begins with you asking advice to creating a new viable plan, not asking how to accomplish the foolhardy plan you already have come up with.
Threads like this seem to pop up here once every month or so and follow the exact same roundabout path of a dumpster fire.
1. The OP starts off with a wild (but honest) tangent about what he thinks is a good idea, but fails to read the "Real Names Must Be Used" notice plastered all over these boards.
2. The OP types and responds with extremely broken grammar, throws in MUST HAVES, gunnas, I have professional audio training, and other words of validation to "prove" professionalism.
3. Despite the well-intentioned, patient, professional responses from the community explaining why the original thought/plan/idea won't work and what to consider instead, the OP fails to acknowledge any feedback that discredits his original idea and instead keeps saying/asking the exact same thing despite already being told the right answer several times over.
4. After a dozen or so pages of going in circles the thread is locked.
I think we've reached Number 4 here. Joe, this isn't an attack on you so please don't take it that way. If you truly want to learn and grow from this you need to strongly consider the advice you've been given and start again with a new thread, realistic business plans and expectations, and a bit more professionalism. I think you'll get much more out of this that way. Either way, best of luck to you.
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It's a shame that they don't appreciate the depth of knowledge and sincere desire to help them be better that is driven by a passion for good sound. After all, what do guys like Brian, Tim, Dick, Caleb, Steve (and so many others) have to gain by freely offering professional advice? They already have successful careers-some have retired from successful careers and have nothing to lose from any OP's failure (its certainly not their money being squandered)-and nothing to gain other than the satisfaction of helping someone else succeed at a vocation they are passionate about.
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It's a shame that they don't appreciate the deoth of knowledge ...
You misspelled death.
The hardest thing to do is un-learn something that you believe to be true.
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Based on the context, and the letter used, I think he intended to type "depth," instead of "deoth."
-r
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Based on the context, and the letter used, I think he intended to type "depth," instead of "deoth."
-r
I see the irony/sarcasm in David's correction... 8)
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I see the irony/sarcasm in David's correction... 8)
Bingo. But really, it was an intentional miss-correction of the typo, with a little irony of "beating a dead dj... errrr horse" that happens occasionally ... errrr frequently. :)
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Don't skimp on FOH speakers!
Good FOH, Average band gear = good show
Bad FOH, Great band and gear = painful to listen to
On the K-Sub, I am also not a fan. They are expensive and heavy. For close to the same money:
Yamaha DXS18 (much louder)
JBL PRX 818 XLF (much louder, much more even sounding)
JBL SRX 818sp (much louder, much more even sounding, a bit more expensive)
QSC KW181 (much louder, much more even sounding)
Yorkville LS801p (much much louder, a bit heavy)
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would it be more of a good idea to simply scrap the guitar amps and run all the instruments through the mixer to the active speakers... mind you you can add reverb, distortion, delay etc at the click of a button on the computer... im not really interested in micing amps and dealing with feedback, and endless expensive mics, and apparently using amps alone is not an option which is understandable, even in practice spaces, amps have to be well placed or it sounds like your guitarist is accross the room...,
the mixer im using is once again a mackie onyx 1640i... its a pretty versatile mixer with a firewire DAC to a computer, and pretty solid preamps outside of spending 10k on a neve mixer... also has 16 channels...
im pretty much using electronic drums for life, so is it really going to be that much of a problem?... some drum brains allow you to adjust the volume of each individual drums... ultimately these are way faster and easier to set up, way easier to transport, way easier to maintain, no need to tune or adjust, multiple sounds and styles at the push of a button, way easier and effortless to play... way more space efficient in smaller venues.... and (probably) the wave of the future... usually sound crisper and cleaner than acoustic drums tend to sound in the venues im aiming for playing which tend to muddy the acoustic drums... there have been many complaints... maybe a digital sounding comming right out of well p'aced and prosumer level speakers would kill two birds with one stone...
i honestly have learned a lot and would rather spend more on some prosumer speakers...
let me clarify what i meant by "pushed harder" i mean if bpth speakers are pushed well within their limiter still having lots of headroom where distortion or blowing the speaker is not an issue... what sounds BETTER with more balance, tone, warmth, etc, when played at its healthy level, i dont mean PUSHED to the limiter... does it even matter, iv heard different speakers have different characteristic sounds.... furthermore... its also useful information to know which speaker sounds better when pushed to lighting the limiter and holds out longer without blowing the drivers when under strain...
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If you're hitting the limiter, then you need to turn it down. As soon as that limiter is running, you're going to be running the risk of damaging the drivers. There's no magic point that "before this line, you're OK, and after it, you're toast" -- it simply doesn't exist. Everything is dynamic based on the circumstances at hand. You can watch the rig all you want- one fast peak and POP.
As for mic'ing guitar cabs and dealing with feedback- good-- well, even decent or OK placed guitar mics, emphasis on WELL-PLACED should not be feeding back at all. If they are, then you need to step back to Sound 101 and eliminate the cause. (A common one with Sennheiser e609s or e906s is ignoring what the "FRONT" label on the mic means!)
I would strongly suggest you stop worrying about how speakers will perform when "pushed harder." You really don't want to be purchasing a rig based on how they perform when they're being abused! [Unless you're planning on only renting these out, and you won't be there to make sure they're treated respectfully.]
So do you have a new budget in mind, since you're now (apparently) willing to spend more than $350?
-Ray
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Micing guitar amps is simple and straight-forward. If anything, they're less likely to feed back than a vocal mic. A pair of '57s and some short stands and you're done.
That said, if you can get away with using an amp emulator direct into the PA (and monitors!), life will get much easier as stage volume will drop hugely. After drums, guitar amps are the next biggest PITA in that regard.
Chris
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would it be more of a good idea to simply scrap the guitar amps and run all the instruments through the mixer to the active speakers... mind you you can add reverb, distortion, delay etc at the click of a button on the computer...
Yes, but.....
You cannot use the computer for your guitar tone.
Your guitar player must own a modeling solution. Good ones are not cheap.
If you try to use a guitar plug in on your computer, the latency is going to be terrible in a live band situation.
If laptops were great guitar amps....you'd see people doing it.
Tell your guitar player to buy (at a minimum) a Line 6 pedal/pod. Then you can run through FOH speakers. But the guitar player will need a monitor for themselves in addition to that.
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i have a mackie onyx 1640i analog mixer with firewire connection to a laptop to ableton for effects and the option of recording gigs... the output from the computer is 16 channels not just 2 stereo outputs... so you can send all 16 tracks into and out of the laptop to be routed however you want from the mixer to whatever buses and speakers you decide...
Can someone explain this to me? I can't seem to grasp what Ableton does here and how we end up with 16 outputs.
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Can someone explain this to me? I can't seem to grasp what Ableton does here and how we end up with 16 outputs.
I gave up trying to understand the signal flow or actual use about 4 pages ago.
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Can someone explain this to me? I can't seem to grasp what Ableton does here and how we end up with 16 outputs.
I got confused by this too Scott but thought I was missing something. How can this be done?
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The "signal flow" seems to be "reading product literature and imagining how it works".
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Can someone explain this to me? I can't seem to grasp what Ableton does here and how we end up with 16 outputs.
The Firewire interface is just for recording / studio use. It is 16 in 3 out from the PC / Mac. IMO, the only use for this in a live scenario would be to multitrack record to a DAW. I think the OP is overestimating the capability of this mixer, as Mr. Rees would suggest.
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I have seen a guy who used a multi-channel recording interface and a laptop as a mixer. This was before rack mounted digital mixers became popular. He ran a few plug-ins on it but it was pretty easy to get carried away with multiple things on every track and latency. When I saw him do it, it was in a bar where there weren't a lot of inputs.
I suppose you could use such a set up as multiple external FX loops, but kind of unnecessary given what you can get in a 3U box these days.
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I think you guys missed that he is sticking to electronic drums?? I guess that negates the idea of doing sound for others. I am really confused, so far I gather he is a drummer who wants to build a rig for DJ's and eventually for bands who must use electronic drums.
Did I understand correctly?
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... I am really confused ... Did I understand correctly?
I am not so much confused as confounded by OP not telling us the whole story. (What does he really want to accomplish, what is the real short and long term budget, what is the business plan if this is going to be a business, is he in a band and is this for his band for starters, etc.)
Did you understand correctly ??? I'm not sure any of us understand what he really wants.
At this point, I simply give up.
(I suspect many others who know more than I about sound, are also smarter than I about when to stop trying and gave up a while back.)
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bands and djs... i own most of the band equipment, 2 mics, mic stands, guitars, keyboard, 16 channel firewire mixer, electronic drums,
along with numark ns7 and laptop and odyssey case...
smaller pubs mostly
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bands and djs... i own most of the band equipment, 2 mics, mic stands, guitars, keyboard, 16 channel firewire mixer, electronic drums,
along with numark ns7 and laptop and odyssey case...
smaller pubs mostly
What sort of bands are you doing with only 2 mics?
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What sort of bands are you doing with only 2 mics?
https://youtu.be/9gbctDg4lTo
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https://youtu.be/9gbctDg4lTo
I could use at least 12 mics to mic that... Naturally I could also use 1.
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bands and djs... i own most of the band equipment, 2 mics, mic stands, guitars, keyboard, 16 channel firewire mixer, electronic drums,
along with numark ns7 and laptop and odyssey case...
smaller pubs mostly
I do not have the sound credentials most here do, but if you are running an e-kit you need a subwoofer. You will get very thin sounding drums, with the kick almost inaudible, running through just 12 or 15" mains. In fact, 2 subs really, but that's out of your budget.
As this thread is so convoluted, just wanted to add that Proaudiostar has JBL PRX710's for $399 each, $438 with a cover. A pair with covers is $866. All is until they run out since it's new old stock stuff.
Since budget is very limited, 2 of these and a PRX sub should be a suitable starting point, but of course you'll be spending almost $2k (not the $350 you originally mentioned).