Nathan Walker wrote on Tue, 12 December 2006 15:50 |
... Our church has chosen to forgo a contractor, but we are seeking any sources of outside help....what are a few questions you all might ask a vendor besides how much experience they have, what type of maintenance they provide and that sort of thing? |
Nathan Walker wrote on Tue, 12 December 2006 16:46 |
It may not be as in depth as if it were from a contractor, but they said their business is to design and install audio and video solutions, train the people who run it, and occasionally come in for additional training and system maintenance. |
Nathan Walker wrote on Tue, 12 December 2006 23:52 |
All the vendors/contractors have received the same technical specifications. The only differences that these proposals will have are their respective solutions to our specific needs. I'm assuming that these guys are what you all would consider contractors. I think I confused contractor with consultant. Our committee has been using the term vendor as any company that will install our A/V system. |
Aaron McQueen wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 12:03 |
Forget about the feedback destroyer. |
Nathan Walker wrote on Wed, 13 December 2006 12:57 |
You make a good point. However I'd still need to learn how to use one for special occasions where microphone placement is not as it is on a typical Sunday. For example, 5 wireless lapel microphones for a Christmas pageant. All within 15 feet (never again without decent microphones). |
Tony Mah wrote on Fri, 15 December 2006 08:40 |
A red flag would be if the contractor used room modeling software and goes overboard and draws too much detail like doors and windows. With a prebuilt room, only the floor plan is needed! The walls don't matter because the reverb time is known and you can actually go inside the room and listen for problems like echos. |
Tony Mah wrote on Sat, 16 December 2006 14:02 |
Brad, My response is was specifically for Nathan and their 250 seat church, and not all conditions. Let me put in a time constraint and you tell me how you would do it. 9AM-10AM drive to church 10AM-11PM meeting with pastor etc to talk about vision what they want to do. 1PM-noon - measurement time Noon-1PM -Lunch 1PM-4pm - do caluclations and quote 4pm-4:30pm - go over quote with client make sure you got everything 4:30-5:30 - drive back to office, check email, etc and go home. So you got about 4 hours to solve the room and finish the quote. IMO you can't spend more time than this on a small church unless you are going to over sell on equipment. |
Tony Mah wrote on Sun, 17 December 2006 13:53 |
It would only take me a day to do a small church and even if I spent a week, the quote would be the same. My job would be to design a great sounding system and save the church time and money. |
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The better question is how can we save Nathan's church money? 1 Mackie TT24 Mixer - A 24 ch digital board for a church that if Nathan leaves will not have anyone that can take advantage of the features? A&H wizard might be just fine |
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Nathan and their church really don't know what they want and the contractor is giving them want they think they want. Nathan is the customer, but he is not qualified to spec the system. Why are they quoting a system so expensive and no subs are in the quote? |
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For a small church, how long does it take to build the equipment list, make all the diagrams in StarDraw by dragging and dropping and produce a quote? The client can look at the 500hz and 2khz plots and the Stardraw diagram and figure it out pretty easy. |
Ivan Beaver wrote on Wed, 20 December 2006 12:18 |
Of course there are exceptions to the rule and from time to time we do put the amps at FOH, but that is a last resort. |
Nathan Walker wrote on Wed, 03 January 2007 12:22 |
One of the differences we've noted between the two top contractors is the placement of projectors. One contractor would like to suspend them from the ceiling near the screens and the other has claimed that he can achieve the same quality with 4500 to 5000 lumen projectors and long throw lenses from the back of the church. I know this is a sound forum, but any thoughts? |
Nathan Walker wrote on Wed, 03 January 2007 12:22 |
One of the differences we've noted between the two top contractors is the placement of projectors. One contractor would like to suspend them from the ceiling near the screens and the other has claimed that he can achieve the same quality with 4500 to 5000 lumen projectors and long throw lenses from the back of the church. I know this is a sound forum, but any thoughts? After a bit of discussion at the committee last night we will be calling in the contractors for our last Q&A before the bid process. I'm getting goosebumps thinking about how the new capabilities will affect our worship service. As an added surprise, if there is any form of money left over, we would like to put it towards some form of church bells(electronic). |
Nathan Walker wrote on Wed, 03 January 2007 15:02 |
On the other hand, with the projectors mounted on an aesthetically pleasing shelf near the back of the church that would be about 10' off the ground (since the church has a slight slope downward to the chancel). The cable runs would be much shorter to the sound booth, labor costs would be cut, the electrician's job would be easier, maintenance costs would be much lower (since they'd only need a latter), and we wouldn't have pipes hanging from the ceiling. |
Aaron McQueen wrote on Wed, 03 January 2007 10:42 |
Light does not loose intensity over distance like sound does. |
Andy Peters wrote on Thu, 04 January 2007 16:47 | ||
Huh? Light may not loose intensity over distance, but it certainly does lose intensity over distance. In fact, it follows the same inverse square law as sound. -a |
Brian Kent Tennyson wrote on Fri, 16 December 2005 11:33 |
...Distance from the screen has no effect on the amount of candlepower you will need from your projector. ANSI lumen requirements are the product of a calculation of the gain of the screen, ambient light and desired contrast. Less stray light on the screen = less light needed out of the projector. Photons are not like sound waves, and are not noticeably affected by 60' of "clear" air. If light control is good just buy the brightest thing you can afford and you should be alright... |
Andy Peters wrote on Thu, 04 January 2007 16:47 |
Light may not loose intensity over distance, but it certainly does lose intensity over distance. In fact, it follows the same inverse square law as sound. |
Nathan Walker wrote on Fri, 05 January 2007 11:31 |
And the other contractor didn't quote any switcher or scaler (take a guess). |
Nathan Walker wrote on Thu, 04 January 2007 00:47 |
If I can picture it in my head clearly... it will be roughly the height of the top 10% of the screen. I'll do some measuring tomorrow, but I've learned due to the slope of the house, the top of the chancel is level with the very back of the sanctuary. This will make it much easier to measure. The assumption I'm making is that the bottom of the screen will not dip below 6.5' from the ground (doorway height). Assuming we go with a 6' X 8' screen, the projector should be roughly 12.5' off the ground. That is... unless the rule of thumb about projection placement only applied when the projector was upside-down and suspended. Either way, there is enough height available where we envision the shelf would be. We just purchased a 14' fiberglass ladder for other purposes, but it sound like that ladder will be perfect for cleaning the filters and replacing bulbs. |
Nathan Walker wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 04:45 |
I guess he was thinking that each projector would have one. I did specify that I wanted individual control of what was to be viewed on each screen in case I ever needed to show a video on one screen, lyrics from a computer on another, and sheet music on the confidence screen. Thats a wild scenario, but it was more for use with the two screens at the front. I guess he would some how split the signal from the source three ways and run each to the switcher scaler modules. |
Tony Mah wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 04:03 |
Brands range from Folsom (Mercedes) Analog Way (BMW) Extron (Toyota) Kramer (Nissan) |
Nathan Walker wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 12:17 |
I think as a committee we ruled out the double projector option. If we are going with long throw, stacking projectors would be incredibly tough to calibrate, plus the added cost of the long-throw lenses. If we were going to project for mounts suspended by the ceiling, then it kind of defeats the purpose of stacking since we will already be getting a more intense picture. |
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The result is that a projector filling a specific screen size has the same intensity no matter what distance the projector is from the screen as the output and area are the same. This can be achieved through zoom lenses and various throw lenses. |
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I guess he was thinking that each projector would have one. I did specify that I wanted individual control of what was to be viewed on each screen in case I ever needed to show a video on one screen, lyrics from a computer on another, and sheet music on the confidence screen. Thats a wild scenario, but it was more for use with the two screens at the front. I guess he would some how split the signal from the source three ways and run each to the switcher scaler modules. |
Tony Mah wrote on Sat, 06 January 2007 15:42 | ||
Sounds like you should cross off this contractor. Seems like you don't know the complexity of what you are asking for and the contractor did not know how to implement it and could not tell you it was not feasible! If you wanted to display the same powerpoint on all three screens and then switch to a DVD clip on all three screens how would you do it? Split the computer and the DVD three ways each and push the three buttons on the three scalers simultaneously? What about the audio? A video matrix that Aaron suggests can't handle three projectors, in fact nothing under 100K can do what you want. Tony |
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Since you are using two projectors, you need a video source switcher/scaler so that the two projectors don’t get out of synchronization. We recommend a “video-source-switcher and image-scaling” unit to greatly simplify the usage of your system. This unit allows us to use a single computer cable up to the projector. You push one button for all switching of sources and this happens quick. This switcher will do “picture-in-picture” displays. It allows you to hear the audio associated with the corresponding video programs from any and all sources, using a single audio input on the sound system. It also (up-scales) the image of your video sources to match the quality you see when displaying “computer-images”. |
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I'm only saying that even though it would be a bit more expensive to use switchers, there has got to be an easy way to accomplish the task of dividing screen output at a reasonable price (not $100k) |
Tony Mah wrote on Sun, 07 January 2007 23:51 | ||
"easy" is a key requirement. Easy and professional doesn't come cheap. You can: 1. do what Aaron suggested and get a cheap scaler to upsample every non computer input and plug it into a computer router. You get what you want, it is kinda easy, but it is not glitch free and doesn't look professional. It is an expensive way to spend 3-4k. This is a technician's answer to make it work. 2. Do what your old church did and find projectors that has freeze or black frame insertion. It is not easy but it might be professional enough for church use and you save a lot of money. This is a business person's answer. Have a solution that works, save the money and pass the risk of something going wrong downward to the tech. 3. If your church can give up on having a different image on three screens and be satisfied with having a different image on two screens, get a scaler with preview monitoring. The video will look professional and be easy to use most sundays. When there is a need for different material on the second screen, plug the vga cable for the second projector into the preview monitoring output. This is a compromised consultant's answer that takes into consideration all parties. 5. Pay the big dollars to do it properly. This is a visonary's answer, build it and they will come. 6. Give it up becuase 99% of small churches don't do it and get a simple scaler. This is an older committee person's answer. If 99% of churches use a simple scaler, it can't be wrong and we as a small church don't want to jump ahead of the technology curve becuase it is expensive, or risky, or requires more volunteer experience than we can easily find. The bottom line is that if you can't do it easy and professionally what kind of trades is your church willing to make to get this feature. If the feature is used once or twice a year is it worth the trade? Tony |
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Has a delayed switching mode (ranging from 0 to 3.5sec) for clean transitions (seamless switching) when switching between non-genlocked sources |
Aaron McQueen wrote on Mon, 08 January 2007 10:33[quote title=Quote: |
Has a delayed switching mode (ranging from 0 to 3.5sec) for clean transitions (seamless switching) when switching between non-genlocked sources |
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I wanted individual control of what was to be viewed on each screen in case I ever needed to show a video on one screen, lyrics from a computer on another, and sheet music on the confidence screen |
Ole Anderson wrote on Wed, 10 January 2007 12:09 |
Please excuse my ignorance on this subject, but what is a "confidence monitor"? and where is it located. |