Charlie Zureki wrote on Thu, 09 September 2010 09:24 |
Hello, This is another case where someone knows a bit of information... except, they don't understand that using a less that commercial grade equipment is NOT ACCEPTABLE. They want something ...CHEAP and don't want to pay the real cost of a proper system. Hammer |
Bradford "BJ" James wrote on Thu, 09 September 2010 11:33 | ||
That's a given. |
Charlie Zureki wrote on Thu, 09 September 2010 12:38 | ||||
Hello Bradford, Stick to the "Do it right" plan. They'll find some ahole to do what they THINK they want...then you'll get the job in a few years to clean up their mess... Hammer |
Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC wrote on Thu, 09 September 2010 22:15 |
There is cable made for overhead suspension called messenger cable that has a dedicated suspension wire effectively 'siamesed' with the signal cable, however I can't find a simple single twisted pair version. Look at IMSA cable. That's what's used for traffic signals and you should have no problem finding a 12/2 version with a messenger. You couldn't ask for a better cable for this. Be sure to get the proper support and attachment hardware for the cable you buy. There is hardware to attach the cable to the light posts as well as the 70v speakers to the light posts. As for that intersection, betcha there is a way to run overhead to get around that also. You just need someone who knows what they are doing. But then all this runs counter to what they think a job like this involves and should cost. -Hal |
Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC wrote on Thu, 07 October 2010 17:28 |
Power and Tel Used to be Clifford of Vermont. IMSA cable page -Hal |
Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC wrote on Tue, 26 October 2010 19:33 |
Keep in mind that you can always bump up to 100 or even 200 volts. -Hal |
Bradford "BJ" James wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 08:32 |
Could you give me details on this? Can a 70v system be "modified" to be bumped up to 100 or 200v to account for cable loss, or is this something that has to be started from scratch? The current plan is to have 2 runs (1 upstreet/ 1 downstreet) with each run having a max # of 30 speakers, each tapped at 30 watts. Distances for each run are about 2500' Each run is to be driven from a channel of a 2x 1200 watt amp (69v). I've installed larger systems before, but not with runs this long. I appreciate your help and comments. Thanks, BJ |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 09:12 | ||
100V is standard for use in many export markets so 70V fixed install products often already have a 100V tap. I have seen installs run 3x 70V transformers together to make 210V output (Daytona racetrack to push audio several miles) , it seems you can make 200V easier by adding one extra output transformer to a unit with both low Z and 100V output taps. Just wire the extra transformer primary to low ohm tap, and 100V winding in series with the existing 100V output. (Note: this must be a true transformer, a cheaper auto-former will not work for this). Warning, 200V will sting you pretty good when music is playing, so treat this like the 200V it is. Also the speaker transformer taps will now be hot (2x voltage is 4x power) you may need to make sure you don't send a lot of low bass to the transformers at higher voltage. JR |
Quote: |
Hello, More than likely you'd have no code inspectors breathing down your neck, but, in Michgan... any voltage over 100v is considered "High voltage" and is subject to a whole slew of code regulations. Before you get started I'd suggest you investigate these Codes before you attempt any work. Good Luck, Hammer |
Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 15:31 | ||
Since this is out on the street hanging from poles and lamp posts the NEC doesn't apply. Further, I assume that the poles and lamp posts are municipally or privately owned the only permission you would need to get is from the owners. Of course you still need to observe height clearances over the streets and driveways, you don't want a truck to hook your cable taking everything down for blocks! Normally this is 18 feet. You also need to maintain proper clearance from other voltage carrying conductors (above, below or where you cross them), but if this is the only thing on the lamp posts this is not going to be an issue. -Hal |
Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC wrote on Wed, 27 October 2010 22:46 |
How many speakers and what are the distances between each of them and to the amp? Probably need to see a drawing here if there are taps or branches and not a straight run. Are we assuming 30W transformer taps on all speakers? -Hal |
Bradford "BJ" James wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 08:21 | ||
2 straight runs is what I have planned right now. Run "A"- exits the building and goes about 200' before we hit the first lamp post. There will be 2 speakers mounted on the post, each tapped at 30watts. Then repeat 14 times about every 160'. Total run ~ 2500' `900watt load- off one side of a 2x 1200 amp- straight run. Run "B" is pretty much the same but won't have the full run completed all at once. I do want the electrician to run the cable for the entire run though, so let's assume the same # of units and taps as run "A" No branches are planned, which is why I would like to double check this with you. Perhaps I should spec 12g 2 or 3 pair for each run and split the load. My longest run will still be 2500', but less load on each run. Then parallel the runs at the amp. Cable starts to get real expensive and heavy though. If a single run of 12g would do it, that would be preferred. A reputable electrical contractor will be installing the cable. Everything will be done to code and safety where applicable. All I need to do is provide proper spec's for the cable. |
Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 12:20 | ||||
Hello Hal,
Yes, I do understand... but, as you've said, you're "not familiar with Michigan". It is against State Ordinances and most local codes to hang anything on Public Lighting Poles, without expressed written permission from the County of Jurisdiction. If it is a Public Utility Pole, consent must be sought from that Public Utility. (There are hefty fines that can be levied if there is no consent) Private property is another story, although there can be specific codes also that may pertain to the intended use or items to be hung. Burying any wire or cable is addressed in the State Codes. Nec codes have also been adopted by the State of Michigan as "State Code". Example: Low voltage cable must be buried at a minimum of 6". Where the low voltage cable passes through concrete, it must not be incorporated into the concrete, but pass through conduit buried in the concrete. Those are long runs, and the tension and weight on the cable and guide wires will be pretty high.
|
Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 20:06 |
Trying to think of how to calculate it. Somebody smarter in math than me might be able to help out. What is going to happen is that if you make every speaker 30 watts, as you get farther and farther away from the amp the accumulating load and the resultant cable voltage drop will give you progressively less and less than the selected 30 watts. What you can do is use lower wattage taps at the begining and progresively higher wattages as you go along to the end to equalize. I would like to come up with a spreadsheet to determine the optimal wattages for each position as well as showing the effects of different wire gauges and thereby answer your question but it ain't working. -Hal |
Bradford "BJ" James wrote on Thu, 28 October 2010 13:46 |
Hal, Charlie et all, I was being a bit generous with my distances. Distance from pole to pole is 100-120'. I was adding a bit extra since the existing unused insulators the electricians will be using are near the tops of the poles, and the cables will have to come down about 20' to their mounting location. So, not all the distances quoted are suspended. The poles are concrete and steel and the company running the cable is experienced. I'll make sure to ask when I quote them what cable to use, that they are able to safely install it. Also, looks like my max run will be 22 units. So that brings my total load to 660 watts assuming I use 30 watt taps on all units. But, back to my question: is 12g UTP going to be sufficient for this straight run? Pertinent info: Run "A"- Max potential distance 2500', 660 watt load, driven off one channel of a 2x 1200 watt amp(69.v) Run "B" will be less right now, but potentially the same as "A" in the near future. Thanks BJ |