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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB: The Classic Live Audio Board => Topic started by: Jeff D Johnson on January 21, 2013, 05:18:14 PM
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Hey Everyone,
I've been doing some brain cell crunching and I just can't figure out a real solution on this:
I work for a touring band that does primarily 500 - 2500 person venues. 24 inputs, 8 people on stage and an LS9 stereo stage IEM rig that they control (with a passive split out to the House and my mics).
Now, I would LOVE to integrate Waves plugins into our setup; we used a ton in studio, and because of the fact that most people in this band switch instruments and so, in effort to reign in the channel count, multiple mics are doing double or triple duty. The snap-shots would be SO helpful! But we can't really afford the time or the cost of taking an SC48 out on the road - or something similar. I own Waves Diamond Native and would love to use that for my outboard. Waves has their Multirack Native product which would seemingly make life easy...
But, here's my question how in the heck do people ACTUALLY do this? How do you integrate your outboard Waves Multirack "gear" (audio interface) with all these different formats now? Analog is one thing, but we get a few M7s, Avid/Digi consoles all the time, Digico stuff.... and I have files for all of those, but how could a person have a consistent experience without buying cards for each desk or something?
I would love some insight / pictures / critiques / good jokes, but mostly just some understanding of how this Multirack Native product is actually used in the field.
Thanks for your help,
-Jeff
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Here's how you'd do it in the Yamaha world:
http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/interfaces/miniygdai/wsgy16/index.jsp
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here's how to do it in Soundcraft Vi world:
http://www.soundcraft.com/supporting_tools/
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Are you headlinG these gigs. I can see as an opener how it would by a pita.
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As mentioned, other consoles have waves option cards. Not all are expensive either. You could just get something cheap that will take the waves card, like an Allen Heath GLD or another LS9.
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Yup, options cards, and for me, the best integration is with the Presonus SL24.
Straight to computer FW connection, direct out across all 24ch. with an FW return button on every channel.
Sidhu
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Yup, options cards, and for me, the best integration is with the Presonus SL24.
Straight to computer FW connection, direct out across all 24ch. with an FW return button on every channel.
Sidhu
That would be pretty cool hooked up to waves multirack, right out of the box all you need is multirack software. Never done it myself, don't know why though, I've spent to much time on Presonus desks. GLD would be looking pretty nice to me as a cheap FOH BE desk for waves... 8 FX processors, a Waves card, VCAs, and a digital snake for less the $10k (not inducing computer)? That's kind of awesome.
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Thanks everyone, couple follow-ups though.
In all scenarios you are bringing in your own console, or buying $500+ cards (plus servers for the Yamaha, a specific interface for the soundcraft, etc) for each potential console. I'm thinking a bit old school here - there really isn't a way to bring your "rack" into nearly every club and have it work unless you supply a console, is there? I'm thinking of all the solutions with remote head-amps, to unbalanced inserts on the analog desk - there isn't a good setup apart from either bringing your own desk, or buying option cards and related for the desk you're on. Right? I haven't used the Presonus stuff, so are you saying running the direct outs into the house console, or using the SL24 for FOH?
You guys are great. Thank you.
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I started out this plug-in + virtual soundcheck thing with a Digi 002 back in the day, evolved to a Presonus Studiolive 24 and drive a X32 now.
I like the X32 A LOT and would recommend it to anyone trying to achieve computer interaction, it sends audio from the preamps to the computer and back into the correspondent channels so you can have everything you want on the channels plus DAW control on the control surface.
I think you'll probably spend just a little less money if try to achieve a solution with soundcards and cables (XLR and 1/4" out to the desk), but there's the hassle of connecting and troubleshooting everything - including the desk of the day. And you'll have "less" of a total recall scenario ...
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In all scenarios you are bringing in your own console, or buying $500+ cards (plus servers for the Yamaha, a specific interface for the soundcraft, etc) for each potential console. I'm thinking a bit old school here - there really isn't a way to bring your "rack" into nearly every club and have it work unless you supply a console, is there? I'm thinking of all the solutions with remote head-amps, to unbalanced inserts on the analog desk - there isn't a good setup apart from either bringing your own desk, or buying option cards and related for the desk you're on. Right? I haven't used the Presonus stuff, so are you saying running the direct outs into the house console, or using the SL24 for FOH?
Using the Presonus for FOH would be the suggestion.
You could also set up a rack with an audio interface with 8 ins and 8 outs for example, plus computer with Waves MultiRack. Hook inserts up to the interface and you'll have on any console with inserts. Problem is, latency will be more complicated than with any console Waves card + computer system, you'll be adding an A-D-A, and you'll be at the mercy of your best choice of audio interface and driver configuration. Consoles with Waves cards connect to the computer via Ethernet for and all digital signal path and are optimized for low latency. Consoles like the Presonus have FireWire built in, so you can send your audio to computer and back also all digital via FireWire with a pretty well established driver and latency setup. Berhinger is similar. Those are your choices essentially:
1 - go pro and get a console, a card, and a computer (expensive, but obviously a lot of unrelated benefits. LS9 and GLD have Waves card. With VCAs and 8 FX GLD seems the best of the pair for FOH plus it's Waves card will do more channels),
2 - Get a relatively inexpensive console with FireWire functionality built in plus waves multirack (limited to essentially to StudioLive, X32, and possibly Soundcraft Si series when their FireWire card hits shelves... but I'm in no mood to suggest Soundcraft to you).
3 - Go DIY and set up your own rack with a computer and an interface. If you have the DIY spirit, some know-how with interfaces, and a computer already this could be the cheapest solution, but it doesn't sound very appealing to me personally.
Unless anyone else has an idea besides buying an Avid desk?
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I have tried to get Multirack working with a firewire based computer setup for I/O with a few different interfaces, and found that even with a very fast computer and tweaking buffer settings as low as possible without clicks/dropouts, that I could not get a latency that I would consider usable, particularly for things like compressors. It also created a headache trying to manage the latencies of things which were not routed to the Multirack and keeping them synced with the channels which were returning with latency.
No problem if you want to do verbs/delays, but the more real-time plugins (gates, comps, etc) were a problem for me. YMMV, but I would suggest that you carry your own console with a waves card or soundgrid setup. The headaches of a Multirack native setup IMHO is not worth the hassle.
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Unless anyone else has an idea besides buying an Avid desk?
Before limiting the live plugin hardware options, it should be mentioned that there are several new hardware and software Waves/Digico products designed to help with the live interface and processing of the MultiRack, called Digigrid. I haven't wrapped my head around all of the options, details, workflow, etc., but suffice it to say that you should check it out before choosing your strategy. My understanding is there are: different devices to handle connections for madi, pro-tools and analog inserts; some boxes include DSP processing and networking to be more reliable and have less latency than just a laptop; and mixing software that could enable more scene functionality/automation than just the simple Multirack.
So far, I have been lucky enough to get a Profile or a Digico with my customers the last few years, but I have been using a Madi based recording rig using a Macbook Pro with an RME Madiface (plus I bought the Avid card which is not super quick to install if you drop the inner screw), and it seems that Madi is very stable/reliable, but sometimes the recording fails if I don't run big buffers. I don't know if my laptop could be reliable enough for low latency live plugin processing. I think the new hardware makes using the Multirack a pro option if you love a console like the Vi6, the Midas, or anything with a Madi in/out or analog inserts. I don't know if the prices have been released, to determine if it's economical to be prepared for various situations. And you still might get consoles that have neither Madi, pro-tools digi-links or analog inserts (like a Yamaha M7 with no cards installed). So it might be more reliable, cost effective, and relaxing to carry a small, inexpensive console with your own Multirack Digigrid system (especially if you do manual delay offsets, like you might with parallel compression between groups). This link should be the recent announcement on Prosoundweb about the release:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/waves_audio_and_digico_announce_new_partnership_digigrid/
Full disclosure, I am on the Waves "Street Team," which means I am an independent live engineer who loved their products and volunteered to help for some benefits, such as access to their gurus.
Please update this thread, as I'd love to hear about your quest to be able to use plugins on house consoles.
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Just wondering if it's possible to build your own Soundgrid server using existing computer equipment? Or am I better off buying their off-the-shelf solution?
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Just wondering if it's possible to build your own Soundgrid server using existing computer equipment? Or am I better off buying their off-the-shelf solution?
Did you read this thread at all? I think that was answered in serious detail.
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Did you read this thread at all? I think that was answered in serious detail.
Indeed I did Samuel, MultiRack was covered in excellent detail, thanks. Read my question carefully, my inquiry is specific to the Soundgrid Server itself, essentially an optimized linux server, assembled and sold under the Waves brand. Based on the research I've done so far, the answer seems to be no from a practical point of view.
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Hey Everyone,
I've been doing some brain cell crunching and I just can't figure out a real solution on this:
I work for a touring band that does primarily 500 - 2500 person venues. 24 inputs, 8 people on stage and an LS9 stereo stage IEM rig that they control (with a passive split out to the House and my mics).
Now, I would LOVE to integrate Waves plugins into our setup; we used a ton in studio, and because of the fact that most people in this band switch instruments and so, in effort to reign in the channel count, multiple mics are doing double or triple duty. The snap-shots would be SO helpful! But we can't really afford the time or the cost of taking an SC48 out on the road - or something similar. I own Waves Diamond Native and would love to use that for my outboard. Waves has their Multirack Native product which would seemingly make life easy...
But, here's my question how in the heck do people ACTUALLY do this? How do you integrate your outboard Waves Multirack "gear" (audio interface) with all these different formats now? Analog is one thing, but we get a few M7s, Avid/Digi consoles all the time, Digico stuff.... and I have files for all of those, but how could a person have a consistent experience without buying cards for each desk or something?
I would love some insight / pictures / critiques / good jokes, but mostly just some understanding of how this Multirack Native product is actually used in the field.
Thanks for your help,
-Jeff
This is not an overt recommendation for the product, but have you looked at SAC (Software Audio Console)? I'm running two SAC rigs and the ability to use VST plugins (not just Waves) was a real big selling point to me. SAC isn't a perfect solution, but in your instance it might actually work well if you're willing to put in the time to learn it.
www.softwareaudioconsole.com
Cheers,
Randy Hyde
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Indeed I did Samuel, MultiRack was covered in excellent detail, thanks. Read my question carefully, my inquiry is specific to the Soundgrid Server itself, essentially an optimized linux server, assembled and sold under the Waves brand. Based on the research I've done so far, the answer seems to be no from a practical point of view.
Hmm, I think it could work fine. Its building your own soundgrid with its own I/O that is the trouble. However, if you have a console with the WAVES card that connects to your homemade soundgrid server via ethernet it should work fine.
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Now with DigiGrid (Waves Soundgrid with Digico Soundtracs IO) this should get a lot simpler, as you'll be able to have a standalone soundgrid system, without console cards, but with specifically designed low latency IO
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Hmm, I think it could work fine. Its building your own soundgrid with its own I/O that is the trouble. However, if you have a console with the WAVES card that connects to your homemade soundgrid server via ethernet it should work fine.
Yeah, that's what I was hoping to do, use a waves card in the Yamaha console, and create my own Waves server using a spare Mac Mini I have kicking around. However all my google searches have been in vain on finding any directions/software to create my own "Soundgrid server." Just buy their off the shelf solution, and consider it done! There's plenty of info out there for setting up a MultiRack server, but as others here stated, you pay a price with latency! Or does the MultiRack software have Waves Soundgrid I/O capability via the computer's EtherNet port so I don't take a hit with increased latency? So many questions!! It certainly has been educational!
The Digigrid stuff looks really nice, I wonder what their prices will be like?
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Well, as an update (and to get more back on topic :-) I'm going to go for this option, which will cover 85% of my needs. The step after this is probably an SC48 or another console + soundgrid. Love the digigrid stuff, but most consoles that I'm using don't have MADI standard or don't support it at all.
- Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 + Octopre Dynamic MKii (connected via Toslink) for 16 channels of inserts
- My existing Waves Diamond native bundle
- A small midi trigger setup (for snapshots and quick grabs like threshold and whatnot)
- 16 channel balanced insert snake with 16 adapters for analog desks with unbalanced inserts
- A sexy case - cause everything is better in a sweet case.
This will be running on my retina MPB, which specs out at 2.7GHZ i7, 16GB Ram, 512 SSD. I'll try and report back after some tests.
As a secondary note, with the setup I have I'm going to probably try and grab at MY16AT for the yamaha boards; I can then use the ADAT for my inserts. That takes care of yamaha desks, analog and then I can bring my presets into the Avids.
Here's hoping!
-Jeff
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For aprox. US$ 1.5k more you can get a X32. It costs twice the ammount of money (aprox.) your setup will cost you but you gain a 40 channel mixer, total recall capability - including preamps, virtual sound check (32 ch. multi-track recording) capability, twice the ammount of preamps, good onboard FX and lots of I/O possibilities on top of the plug-in interaction you are looking for (wich would then happen through a single USB or firewire cable).
Sounded like a good deal to me... ;D
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For aprox. US$ 1.5k more you can get a X32.
Fausto,
It seems to me like Jeff is beyond the realm of the X32 in usage/rider requirement, so I don't think that's a viable solution.
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Fausto,
It seems to me like Jeff is beyond the realm of the X32 in usage/rider requirement, so I don't think that's a viable solution.
True Jordan - and while I'm sure the X32 has some promise for some settings, I'm not going to go into live rooms that have a heritage 3k and plop down a X32. Behringer has a long way to go before they have a viable reputation - regardless of specs. Plus there's just.... sound quality. I'd take a LS9-32 over an X32 any day... and boy, I don't want to mix on an LS9.
Appreciate the input though; I'm in the process of testing this all out right now. Having some major issues with my focusrite drivers, but if I do resolve them I'll keep posting my experience.
Side note - I did write a screen display for Touch OSC (midi control software for iPad) for multirack. I got it to respond and all that, so I could trigger and pull-up certain things on my comp remotely. Not sure if I'll use it; depends on reliability - but cool concept!
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Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I'm curious to see how Jeff went, and whether you are still using your Touch OSC setup.
Any insights would be appreciated!
Chris
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Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I'm curious to see how Jeff went, and whether you are still using your Touch OSC setup.
Any insights would be appreciated!
Chris
Chris - I actually didn't implement it. I have the waves diamond package plus the studio classics, and I would love to bring them in to the live situation in a non-console carrying way. That said - I really tried to use my focusrite saffire pro 40 for my I/O, but I hit a few snags; I'm not sure if it was the saffire mixcontrol software or what, but I hit a few times where it seemed to cut out. After that, I tested the Touch OSC with midi over wifi via an adhoc network - the delay and jerky response wouldn't do, so the only way to rectify that is to get a midi interface for iOS device; which made me hit that crucial threshold of lack of interest. That, plus I only did the trial of the multirack software for a test, so I'd have to invest the $500 into a product I was unsure of.
I would love see this work, and love to have the cabiling, interface costs, racking, and necessary software expenses justify the end product. So far, I haven't hit that point vs. just renting an SC48, SD9, etc (or other medium format desk). I do occasionally work for a few smaller acts around town, and I've revisited this topic recently. Maybe my initial aspirations were a bit big (8 - 16 channels of IO). Maybe this is more prone to 1 or two channels?
I think this world is worth looking into more, but honestly, the hard part for me is - who is the target market for this? Who is using it? With what desks? What are they carrying on a 2-4 week tour to make this work? It is those kind of real-world questions that I have a hard time answering in this arena. This has to be for smaller (500 or so) person clubs. Anyone else (and many of these size clubs!) has good digital or better-than-good analog setups. Anyone smaller may indeed have fair digital that is a pain in the arse to interface with or TRS insert analog. SO - how often would I use this after spending all this dough on stuff? Do I need to carry a 4U rack, tons of adapters and insert cables for all situations, a good computer, etc into a club? It is hard to say that this is worth it over the analog counterpart.
We're all in a business, and the business end of the NATIVE multirack world is where the equation becomes hard. I've re-approched it as I now own TDM / "Soundgrid" versions of many of the plugins, but without already owning the plugins, the amount of money to spend on still lugging expensive gear into a club... I'd advise buying good analog strips if I didn't have any plugins and calling it a day. Since I already own the plugins, I'm looking into it, but making no moves soon.
I'd love for people to continue to chime in though - I'd love for this to work! I am just barely old enough to know the difference between having a 120lb rack in the back of a trailer that I'd lug upstairs to the sound booth vs. the weight of a jump drive. It is just awesome.
Just thinking aloud here. If I find my touch OSC file (buried somewhere on my hard drive) I'll try and post it for you all to have. I did spend a bit of time on it.
-Jeff
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Jeff,
You'd be surprised, I think, at just how good the X32 you dismissed actually is. The general consensus seems to be that the sound quality is the opposite of your bias and it will hang with many of the better boards out there.
That said, the M32 due out shortly will be a pretty compelling option as well if you really can't stand showing up with an X32.
My experience on the road with the X32 on small to large stages is that while many are still reserving judgement on long term reliability, everyone gives it props for sound quality and feature set. I've even worked with an engineer willing to sell off his Pro1 for a pair of x32 to gain a FOH/Monitor split rig and keep roughly the same audio quality.
My only gripe in your situation would be the loss of recording ability unless multitrack had some sort of multitrack recording ability. The inputs are only assignable to one piece of hardware at a time. You could work around that though by linking in an x32 Core over AES50 and splitting the inputs to that for recording while using the XuSB card in the desk for Waves. If you went with a sound grid server and the MADI interface option, you can now get a 32x32 MADI card for the x32/m32 as well.
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A guy from Waves told me via phone he uses this program called Jack to split the audio one one computer coming from the SG network to a DAW and Multirack for his waves product demos.
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Jeff,
You'd be surprised, I think, at just how good the X32 you dismissed actually is. The general consensus seems to be that the sound quality is the opposite of your bias and it will hang with many of the better boards out there.
That said, the M32 due out shortly will be a pretty compelling option as well if you really can't stand showing up with an X32.
My experience on the road with the X32 on small to large stages is that while many are still reserving judgement on long term reliability, everyone gives it props for sound quality and feature set. I've even worked with an engineer willing to sell off his Pro1 for a pair of x32 to gain a FOH/Monitor split rig and keep roughly the same audio quality.
+1
If you told me two years ago that I would own a Behringer console, I would have laughed at you. The turning point for me was when I was visiting a friend at his house gig. We watched the headliner do his check with a Profile. The opener had an X32 with Multirack running. As the opening bands engineer did soundcheck, the house engineer, the headliner's engineer and myself were all very impressed about the quality of the mix. After that experience, I sold off a bunch of nice analog gear, bought a pair of X32's, and a Wave's Multirack setup and haven't looked back. I've recently added a Midas DL251 stage box to the system and have been very happy with the quality and flexibility. I couldn't ask for more.
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How's the latency with FireWire? I would expect it to be around 7-10 ms not including plug delay, which is pretty high. No issues there? It'd have to be too high for in ears I imagine.
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How's the latency with FireWire? I would expect it to be around 7-10 ms not including plug delay, which is pretty high. No issues there? It'd have to be too high for in ears I imagine.
I'm getting 8.54ms with a MBPro via FireWire with "0" latency plugins. Plugins that run 96 samples adds 2ms and 192 samples adds 4ms, all at 48Khz. I have had no issues at FOH, but the latency is too high to be useable with IEM's.
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Anyone tried this over Dante with DVS? I've heard people suggest that DVS has similar latencies to FW/USB interfaces (obviously I imagine different NICs have slightly different results). This wouls suggest to me that they might be in the 8-10ms roundtrip bracket.
My application is FOH/Broadcast, and I'm primarily processing groups or inputs that don't have a timing relationship with any others, so that kind of latency is pretty unimportant
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Anyone tried this over Dante with DVS? I've heard people suggest that DVS has similar latencies to FW/USB interfaces (obviously I imagine different NICs have slightly different results). This wouls suggest to me that they might be in the 8-10ms roundtrip bracket.
And also, will the Dante Accelerator Card (http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/daw_systems/nuage/dante_accelerator/) cut that latency down to an acceptable level?
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And also, will the Dante Accelerator Card (http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/daw_systems/nuage/dante_accelerator/) cut that latency down to an acceptable level?
As a reference, Focusrite's rednet Dante card will give less than 2ms roundtrip with a computer. I think it's reasonable to speculate that Yamaha's would do similarly.
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Yamahas card is different though. I'm not 100% sure it will work without Nuendo... I mean it should be low latency, but it may have proprietary drivers.
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Yamahas card is different though. I'm not 100% sure it will work without Nuendo... I mean it should be low latency, but it may have proprietary drivers.
The linked website lists it as an ASIO or Core Audio device. If so, it will work with pretty much any DAW or professional grade audio software such as Multirack.
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The linked website lists it as an ASIO or Core Audio device. If so, it will work with pretty much any DAW or professional grade audio software such as Multirack.
That would be very cool indeed. Anyone know what it costs?
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I use Waves multitrack native from a GLD or Rednet 3 to rednet PCI. The yamaha card looks exactly the same however with added redundancy, i would think this is the only difference between the two as OEM's simply use the Audinate designed card: http://www.audinate.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=241
Correct me if im wrong, but my understanding of latency is this:
1. GLD or Rednet 3 -> Rednet PCI .15ms
2. 32 sample buffer Waves Multirack @ 48khz .6667ms
3. Individual plugin latency (mostly for live use 0 - 64 samples per plugin, i often use a max of 128 samples for any particular channel) 0 - 2.6667ms
4. 32 sample buffer Waves Multirack @ 48khz .6667ms
5. Rednet PCI -> GLD .15ms
With the use of DVS, you add another 4ms to this on the input, and if your in windows ASIO output buffer will add at least another 1ms on the output, but if you are using a decent amount of channels perhaps more.
If you use a firewire/usb interface the buffers here can vary depending on the machine and driver but best case is about 2ms in and 2ms out.
http://www.presonus.com/news/articles/The-Truth-About-Digital-Audio-Latency
So DVS and Firewire/USB are pretty comparable.
Correct me if i'm wrong!
With the luxury of dante I will often use a 64 or 96 sample buffer, especially in larger venues, allowing for a much much larger plugin count.
All this relies on having a top of the line pc as well.
Ben Anderson
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Thanks Ben,
Thats very interesting. Your analysis of the roundtrip latency is correct, whats interesting is the very low RedNet PCI numbers. Very cool.
I'm interested in Native because other than lower latency, there are minimal advantages to soundgrid (unless you are on Digico, because then you can control the Plugs with the console's screen).
Sure, you have a server, but those servers are expensive for the amount of processing power they offer, and the system still relies on the PC to process the plugins, so its not really any 'safer'. In fact, statistically, its almost certainly less safe because you have more points of failure.
Native offers much lower plugin cost also, which makes it stack up better next to the hardware alternatives.
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True Jordan - and while I'm sure the X32 has some promise for some settings, I'm not going to go into live rooms that have a heritage 3k and plop down a X32. Behringer has a long way to go before they have a viable reputation - regardless of specs. Plus there's just.... sound quality. I'd take a LS9-32 over an X32 any day... and boy, I don't want to mix on an LS9.
I'm sorry Jeff but something is terrible wrong with your judgment, possibily because of the Behringer brand name and the preconceptions about it.
If you go just by the Sound Quality the X32 console is far superior to the old yamaha LS9, they're not on the same league in sonic qualities.
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I'm sorry Jeff but something is terrible wrong with your judgment, possibily because of the Behringer brand name and the preconceptions about it.
If you go just by the Sound Quality the X32 console is far superior to the old yamaha LS9, they're not on the same league in sonic qualities.
Do you realize this thread is over 5 years old?
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Do you realize this thread is over 5 years old?
And whats the problem with that?
information stays for many years in the forums, you can add more info or give your opinions whenever you want.
Different opinions will be relevant to people reading the thread in 2018, 2020 or 2025
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And whats the problem with that?
information stays for many years in the forums, you can add more info or give your opinions whenever you want.
Different opinions will be relevant to people reading the thread in 2018, 2020 or 2025
Mostly because the person you are trying to engage hasn't been a forum participant since then.
Opinion is just that: subjective and based solely on the person's views, not in objective fact or repeatable laboratory investigations.
The X32 is well established (and due for an upgrade). There's no argument about when, where, and why it might be a suitable choice among the users of THIS forum.
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Opinion is just that: subjective and based solely on the person's views, not in objective fact or repeatable laboratory investigations.
information stays for many years in the forums, you can add more info or give your opinions whenever you want.
Different opinions will be relevant to people reading the thread in 2018, 2020 or 2025