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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Product Reviews => Topic started by: Chris Grimshaw on January 24, 2019, 10:27:32 AM
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So I can finally post online about these amps, now that Powersoft have put them on their website.
Webpage link: http://www.powersoft-audio.com/en/touring/serie-t#series
Datasheet link: http://www.powersoft-audio.com/en/docman/1381-t-series-datasheet/file
Hopefully they'll update the website descriptions soon - at the time of writing this, the power specs on the website are all over the place. Check the datasheet link for accurate info.
I was originally planning on getting a set of their Duecanali amps for my PA system, with all the patch cables they would've needed, but my Powersoft dealer told me to hold on if I could - there was something on the horizon.
Fast forward a few months, and I got to demo a couple of the new T-series amps against my own racks through my PA speakers.
A quick note on those - the mains are 2x10"s + HF - Faital Pro 10FH520 and 18Sound ND1460 on an RCF HF94 horn.
My subs are Faital Pro 15HP1060 in ported boxes tuned to 40Hz. I have up to eight of those, so a sub amp that can drive 2ohm is important.
My old racks were as follows:
Behringer DCX2496
Behringer NU6000 (mids)
Behringer NU4-6000 (HF and 2x monitors)
Crown MA12000i (subs)
The rep brought 1x T604 and 1x T602, so that's 2U of amps vs the 7U I'd previously been using.
Quick power ratings comparison, so we know where we are:
Powersoft T604 - 1250/1500/1500w @ 8/4/2ohm all channels driven (4 channels)
Powersoft T602 - 1300/2500/3000w @ 8/4/2ohm all channels driven (2 channels)
It's worth noting that Powersoft has also released figures for asymmetrical loading, like when you've bi-amped a mid-high box. For their test case (all channels driven, but Ch2 and Ch4 at -6dB), the T604 puts out 2100w on Ch1 and Ch3 into 4ohm.
Behringer NU4-6000 - 300/600/1000w/ch @ 8/4/2ohm, all channels driven (4 channels)
Behringer NU6000 - 1200/2000w/ch @ 8/4ohm (2ch)
Crown MA12000i - 2250/4500/6000* @ 8/4/2ohm
*3750w continuous, 6000w burst
So, the big Crown amp puts out around 3dB more than the T602, but the T602 has the full suite of processing.
The mid-high range is evenly matched in power specs.
Now, let me start out by saying that I really wanted my cheap pile of amps to be as good. That way, I'd get to save lots of money and be happy that my racks were as good as Powersoft's latest.
So, we dialled in identical processing for each set of amps. LR24 crossovers at 100Hz and 1kHz, and a bit of HF boost since they're constant-directivity horns.
The difference in sound was this: the Behringer amps played all the notes. The Powersoft amps did that, and also told you all about the venue that the notes were recorded in.
Now, granted it wasn't a true double-blind listening test with ABX comparisons, but the difference was pretty obvious.
The next test was whether the T602 could keep up with the big Crown amp. The test was only with 1x sub per channel (in hindsight, we should've bridged the T602 to give it some pain). The conclusion was that both amps had plenty of guts. The extra 3dB of output on the Crown was present - at matched levels, the T602 was just into clipping while the MA12000i wasn't. The clipping wasn't obviously audible, though.
However, the differences were swamped by the room acoustics. The subs were in the middle of a large room with lots of reflections - walking around and it could go from loud bass, to wondering if the subs were actually connected.
The installed PA has 3x 2x18"s per side as part of a Nexo Alpha rig, and they still use delays.
I decided to go with the T602, because the MA12000i would've needed the DCX2496 to run the subs, and then it's 3U vs 1U in rack space, and the processing still isn't really comparable - the T602 has FIR processing, among other things.
So, I'm now the proud owner of 1x T604 and 1x T602, and I'm looking at picking up a T304 or two for monitors before a certain UK-based political event happens which will probably impact currency conversions.
Having had some time to play with the amps, I continue to be impressed with the quality, power output and flexibility of these amps. For instance, my Dad is quite into HiFi, so I took the T604 round and we fired up an old pair of Mission 760i speakers that he'd been trying to bi-amp for a while. Connected the T604, did a quick set of measurements, used the default "FIR" crossover setting at 2.5kHz, tweaked levels and we were both very impressed. This was a set of speakers that had gone from never-quite-right to "actually, that's rather good" in about 10 minutes.
If anyone has any questions, I'd be happy to try to answer them.
Cheers, all.
Chris
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Chris, thank you for the detailed review. I've been noticing the hints you've been dropping, and have been looking forward to today's announcement. Depending on just how economically priced they are, these could make a great fit for me.
Appreciate your time!
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I’ve had a T602 around for a few weeks, very impressive so far. Looking forward to testing the rest of the series.
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Chris, thank you for the detailed review. I've been noticing the hints you've been dropping, and have been looking forward to today's announcement. Depending on just how economically priced they are, these could make a great fit for me.
Appreciate your time!
Same here, been waiting for the secondhand market to get in our budget sweet spot, but might be convinced to go over a bit if we can get something brand new out of it.
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So I talked to my Powersoft distributor (https://www.cuk-audio.com/), and they've told me to tell you the official list pricing, which is below:
Item List Ex. VAT (£)
T-602 2,699.00
T-302 2,199.00
T-604 3,199.00
T-304 2,499.00
Now, if you talk to them directly, it's possible to get better pricing than that. I'm not sure I have the liberty to say exactly what I paid for my set of amps, but it was significantly less than the full list price. YMMV.
Chris
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Item List Ex. VAT ($)
T-602 3,555.00
T-302 2,896.00
T-604 4,213.00
T-304 3,291.00
Not sure if they were converted already, but I bounced those figures off the current pound to dollar rate for us yanks.
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Not sure if they were converted already, but I bounced those figures off the current pound to dollar rate for us yanks.
Thanks!
Now, if you talk to them directly, it's possible to get better pricing than that. I'm not sure I have the liberty to say exactly what I paid for my set of amps, but it was significantly less than the full list price. YMMV.
I bet @Mike Pyle could help all of us out ;)
These look really quite nice, good value.
I want Danley/Linea amps...but the price of these Powersoft T amps makes a lot of sense to replace my hodge-podge amp setup (rmx/crown/itech).
Step above the current best value (QSC PLD series).
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Thanks!
I want Danley/Linea amps...but the price of these Powersoft T amps makes a lot of sense to replace my hodge-podge amp setup (rmx/crown/itech).
You can get Linea Reserach amps direct from Linea now as well as from other speaker manufacturers using them for OEM.
There are more options from Linea Research than most of the speaker manufacturers offer as OEM models.
Lee
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You can get Linea Reserach amps direct from Linea now as well as from other speaker manufacturers using them for OEM.
There are more options from Linea Research than most of the speaker manufacturers offer as OEM models.
True, but manufacture presets. supporting the manufacture. etc. and Danley has the best price of the OEM brands.
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So I talked to my Powersoft distributor (https://www.cuk-audio.com/ (https://www.cuk-audio.com/)), and they've told me to tell you the official list pricing, which is below:
Item List Ex. VAT (CAD)
T-602 $4,713.88 (or seven nights stay in a 5-star igloo)
T-302 $3,840.61 (or one meet/greet with Celine Dion)
T-604 $5,587.67 (or a lifetime supply of Tim Horton's Coffee)
T-304 $4,364.98 (or two dogsleds)
Now, if you talk to them directly, it's possible to get better pricing than that. I'm not sure I have the liberty to say exactly what I paid for my set of amps, but it was significantly less than the full list price. YMMV.
Chris
Thanks Chris, very good to know.
....and somewhat tongue-in-cheek for us Canucks around here, I've converted to current CAD. ;)
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Thanks!
I bet @Mike Pyle could help all of us out ;)
These look really quite nice, good value.
I want Danley/Linea amps...but the price of these Powersoft T amps makes a lot of sense to replace my hodge-podge amp setup (rmx/crown/itech).
Step above the current best value (QSC PLD series).
Yeah, I think Mike probably will be able to help.
I had a quick look at these vs QSC PLD, and it's an interesting balance. The flexibility of combining output stages on the PLD amps is certainly neat, but the Powersoft amps are half the size and put out a little more power.
I haven't checked all the processing that the PLD amps have to offer, so can't really compare there. The Powersoft amps do have some nice features, though:
- 2048 taps for custom FIR processing
- Some control and monitoring via web server - connect the amps to a network, connect a device that'll run HTML5 web pages, and you can access some pre-selected controls, including EQs, muting, delays, levels. You also get monitoring in the form of amplifier voltage output, or headroom (which gives a dB scale, and corresponds to the limiting set within the amplifier). Most smartphones will run that just fine via a browser. I have an old Android tablet (running 4.4) that just about manages it.
- Mains current limiting
- Options for digital audio, including Dante
You might well find that the T-series are good enough, and you don't need to buy the Danley amps. Worth a demo, perhaps?
If you go ahead, let us know how you get on.
Chris
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Yeah, I think Mike probably will be able to help.
I had a quick look at these vs QSC PLD, and it's an interesting balance. The flexibility of combining output stages on the PLD amps is certainly neat, but the Powersoft amps are half the size and put out a little more power.
I haven't checked all the processing that the PLD amps have to offer, so can't really compare there. The Powersoft amps do have some nice features, though:
- 2048 taps for custom FIR processing
- Some control and monitoring via web server - connect the amps to a network, connect a device that'll run HTML5 web pages, and you can access some pre-selected controls, including EQs, muting, delays, levels. You also get monitoring in the form of amplifier voltage output, or headroom (which gives a dB scale, and corresponds to the limiting set within the amplifier). Most smartphones will run that just fine via a browser. I have an old Android tablet (running 4.4) that just about manages it.
- Mains current limiting
- Options for digital audio, including Dante
You might well find that the T-series are good enough, and you don't need to buy the Danley amps. Worth a demo, perhaps?
If you go ahead, let us know how you get on.
Chris
Hi Chris,
The amps look nice....alternatives are growing !
I especially like the input flexibility, and processing capability.
A question about the FIR taps....
The spec sheet says 42.6ms of FIR. At 48kHz and the customary use of impulse centering that would indicate 4096 taps.
Have you been able to confirm the tap count in Armonia?
If it's truly 2048 taps, marketing is playing games with their 42.6ms claim , IMO!
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Hi Mark,
They may or may not be telling the truth on the marketing stuff.
When I select the EQ tab for an amp channel on Armonia+, there's a Custom FIR button, which brings up a pop-up box saying that the custom FIR file must be 48kHz and up to 2048 taps.
However, also on the EQ tab, there are options for highpass and lowpass filtering, where you can select an "FIR" slope for each of those.
The "FIR" slope seems to be variable with frequency - higher frequencies get a steeper slope. I wonder if they've locked some of the FIR taps away for the built-in crossover slopes.
I'm hoping to rent a large space soon so I can get my PA fully dialled in with the new amps - for now I've used my previous EQ settings and selected the "FIR" crossover for the mid-high section.
Chris
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Hi Mark,
They may or may not be telling the truth on the marketing stuff.
When I select the EQ tab for an amp channel on Armonia+, there's a Custom FIR button, which brings up a pop-up box saying that the custom FIR file must be 48kHz and up to 2048 taps.
However, also on the EQ tab, there are options for highpass and lowpass filtering, where you can select an "FIR" slope for each of those.
The "FIR" slope seems to be variable with frequency - higher frequencies get a steeper slope. I wonder if they've locked some of the FIR taps away for the built-in crossover slopes.
I'm hoping to rent a large space soon so I can get my PA fully dialled in with the new amps - for now I've used my previous EQ settings and selected the "FIR" crossover for the mid-high section.
Chris
Thanks Chris,
I guess in fairness regarding FIR, I shouldn't say what is "marketing" .....
It's a new dimension, evolving...
IMO, there are currently two basic uses of FIR.
One is building linear phase crossovers, such as you mention with the highpass and lowpass filters.
The other is "custom" FIR filters, where you put HPF & LPF,.. and EQ, ..and phase-only adjustment.... all into one filter.
It's probably gonna take the market some time to sort out how to portray capabilities on those two fronts....
As far as linear phase crossovers....I think it's safe to say what we want to know is...
what degree of on-the-fly, time aligned, and at what orders/types, ....does the unit offer.
And for custom filters....it's simple.....how many taps are available (at what sampling freq / freqs if multiple are available)
"FIR time" is an unfortunate way of describing either IMO...bad ju-ju ::)
Because I think FIR is getting commonly associated (rightly or wrongly) with linear phase.
And true "FIR time" under linear phase = 1/2 the taps.
So I'd say the T-series has 21.3ms 'FIR time'.
But again...that maybe unfair to say that at the present time of spec development...
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Do tthiese new amps work good with 2 Ohm? The website shows only 4 and 8 Ohm.
http://www.powersoft-audio.com/en/touring/serie-t#T604
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IMO, there are currently two basic uses of FIR.
One is building linear phase crossovers, such as you mention with the highpass and lowpass filters.
The other is "custom" FIR filters, where you put HPF & LPF,.. and EQ, ..and phase-only adjustment.... all into one filter.
I think the difficulty is separating those two - Custom FIR filters can have linear-phase crossover slopes built-in, so it feels like one is almost a subset of the other.
I made a small attempt to reverse-engineer their FIR crossover setting, and this is what I found:
- At 500Hz, the slope is about 12dB/octave.
- With that setting, the response starts to diverge from the ideal filter slope at about 25Hz.
- On RePhase, if you assign a 12dB/octave slope 1000 taps, you also get the same divergence at about 25Hz.
My conclusion, then, is that you've probably got 1024 taps for each of the low- and high-pass filters, and then 2048 taps for custom FIR duties.
If you go on Armonia+ and set the EQ window to have a range of 0dB to -100dB, you can see many interesting things as you change the crossover frequency with the "FIR" setting. Above about 850Hz, you get a notch somewhere below the crossover frequency. At 1500Hz, there are three. A 5kHz crossover point gives 12 notches in a comb-filter-esque pattern.
All report a ruler-flat phase response across the board, though.
Do tthiese new amps work good with 2 Ohm? The website shows only 4 and 8 Ohm.
http://www.powersoft-audio.com/en/touring/serie-t#T604
The spec sheet (linked in the first post) shows 2ohm usage is possible, but at best you only get a little more power than at 4ohm.
Asymmetric loading helps a little.
Chris
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My conclusion, then, is that you've probably got 1024 taps for each of the low- and high-pass filters, and then 2048 taps for custom FIR duties.
FIR doesn't work that way.
It's not a matter of allocating X taps to the HPF, Y taps to the the LPF, and Z taps to custom duties.
Because however many taps it takes to do X (the HPF) is generally sufficient to also cover handling the LPF and custom duties, at the same time.
Reason is: ....the number of taps needed doubles for each octave frequency decrease, which also means it halves for each octave increase.
So if 1024 taps handles the HPF (the low end of a pass-band), then you have the whole thing covered with 1024....low-pass and custom duty as well.
Which means it makes no sense to use a separate FIR high-pass and low-pass, and also a custom FIR.
All you get is a whole lot of extra latency, and probably decreased performance.
It does make sense to have separate HPF and LPF as crossover functions, just as any good DSP has a multitude of type/order x-over options.
And it of course makes sense to provide for custom FIR, where as you first mentioned, linear-phase crossovers can be built in.
But it makes no sense, to use both built-in FIR crossovers, and custom FIR at the same time. (unless the processor is hamstrung with a very low custom FIR tap count)
That's why I say touting 'FIR time' as a spec is slippery business. IMO should simply be # taps @ specified sampling rate.
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FIR doesn't work that way.
Fair enough, Mark. You know a lot more about how this all works than me.
I do agree that X taps at Y sampling rate would be the best way to spec these things. Perhaps an article is in order! ::)
Cheers,
Chris
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I presold some of the T602s for an install based on the demo I had. They are really going to shine for portable rigs, though. Light weight, shallow chassis, XLRs, Dante, DSP, Armonia - there is a lot to like.
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I presold some of the T602s for an install based on the demo I had. They are really going to shine for portable rigs, though. Light weight, shallow chassis, XLRs, Dante, DSP, Armonia - there is a lot to like.
Word on the street is that these are the same amps as the quatrocanalli and duecanalli amplifiers, with a few added control bits. Odd those wouldn't be used in an install over the T series.
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Word on the street is that these are the same amps as the quatrocanalli and duecanalli amplifiers, with a few added control bits. Odd those wouldn't be used in an install over the T series.
It's a good word, I was thinking the same thing. But their power specs are a little buffed compared to Quatrocanalli for 4ohm load. Could simply be new specs.
Now I'm considering going to the T series for an install.
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So I was just running the numbers.
T602 = $4k @6kw (need 2 minimum 2 mains 2 subs)
DNA20K4 = $8k @20kw (can power 2 mains & 4 subs)
So really the better bang for buck is the Danley/Linea amps still. But then you might be considering a the K series.
Guess I'm still saving for a DNA amp ;)
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Fair enough. The T-series is nice for small-to-medium sized systems. Might be worth asking a dealer about pricing for an X4 and/or an X8 - there's more grunt to be had there, and pricing might end up competitive with the Danley amp.
Chris
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But then you might be considering a the K series.
Yeah I think that's the point here. The T seems placed to be a happy in-between for people looking to downsize a rack of several heavy amps into a couple U but don't need a million watts of output. For what you're looking at the K and X series are more your speed, and probably priced similarly to the DNA amps.
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Just a quick note to say that today I used the T602 to demo a prototype 2x18" cab (4ohm). The client had an amp that we tried, and turned it off again shortly after - it was clipping almost immediately. Theirs was one of these: https://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/ADJ-American-Audio-VLP2500-Power-Amplifier/1MVK
I don't think it was putting out anywhere near the 1KW rating.
Got the T602 out, bridged it, and gave the cabinet some pain.
Sounded great, even when the bass dropped and held as a sine tone for a while, the amp just got on with it, even when registering -6dB of headroom, which is the Powersoft way of saying we got 6dB into clip.
Here's one of the test tracks we used: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Po2746MdDY
Which is a lot of fun with something that's flat to below 40Hz.
So yes, I continue to be impressed. The client wanted a set of them, too.
Chris
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True, but manufacture presets. supporting the manufacture. etc. and Danley has the best price of the OEM brands.
Don't know why I am just seeing this but wanted to point out that some of the OEM'd Linea amps have manufacturer specific DSP. Not just settings, different actual DSP than Linea standard amps. That is one of the price differences for some that are more expensive than others. Some OEM the entire amp while others have special DSP because the stock DSP cannot do what their speaker systems require.
Lee
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Don't know why I am just seeing this but wanted to point out that some of the OEM'd Linea amps have manufacturer specific DSP. Not just settings, different actual DSP than Linea standard amps. That is one of the price differences for some that are more expensive than others. Some OEM the entire amp while others have special DSP because the stock DSP cannot do what their speaker systems require.
Lee
True, I have come to see that now. db & Martin writes their own software IIRC.
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Well, I've had a T304 for a while. I had originally planned on using one for stage monitors, but for now it's been acting as a stand-in for the T604 that's out for repairs.
The T304 is more of the same, really: clean, solid sound with all the benefits we've discussed previously. I haven't noticed an obvious lack of headroom that you might expect from the smaller amp - it's just got on with it and done the job, even when I was running on a too-small (provided by venue) generator and had to clamp the main current down as low as it'd go - 3A, and running on a squishy 207v.
I continue to be impressed by the amplifiers themselves. To say the servicing side needs work would be an understatement, but I'm assured that Powersoft are working hard to get things up to speed there.
Chris
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Further updates.
I'd finished a new set of speakers earlier this year, and had been waiting on accessing a nice big outdoor space to do some testing. Since we're in lockdown, that's not an option any more. So, I took everything out to my back garden instead.
The speakers are a pair of compact FOH boxes, featuring a Faital Pro 10HX230 coaxial driver, in a medium-sized box tuned to 70Hz. I've rolled a passive crossover for them, since it's a fairly high crossover point (2kHz) and component losses are minimal. I also made a fairly meaty 12" sub to go with them. This setup will be used in smaller venues - rock 'n' roll with minimal drum kit micing, as an example.
Here's what I did:
- Set up the speakers in typical position (on stands etc), one channel per cabinet.
- Using REW, take some measurements. The 10HX230 is very well-behaved - the mid-high range follows the on-axis response, but drops smoothly as you get to 45-degrees off-axis.
- Imported the REW measurements into RePhase, which can be used to make FIR files. You can use a parametric EQ for both frequency and phase response, tell it how many taps you'd like it to use. The maximum allowed on each channel of the T-series amps is 2048, with the expected delay penalty.
- Once RePhase has made the FIR file, import into Armonia+.
- Re-measuring confirmed that the whole thing was working, and then I enjoyed some music.
At one point, I had essentially flat phase and frequency responses from 100Hz upwards, requiring all of the 2048 taps. It sounded the most "correct" I've ever heard a speaker sound, and I spent a while just sitting on the grass enjoying the experience. Background vocals in Fleetwood Mac's Dreams were the most clear I've known, nice sharp transients etc. There wasn't any hint that the amplifiers were operating "down in the noise", despite the power levels being a fraction of a watt most of the time.
Of course, the overall delay was unacceptable for live sound, so I settled for using the custom FIR processing to linearise >600Hz (2.2ms delay IIRC), and an IIR parametric filter to shape the low end and apply a protective highpass filter.
It took a little while to figure out the work-flow to save new speakers in Armonia+, but with that nailed down I can tell the amps which speakers they're connected to, and they organise themselves accordingly.
I'm planning on another T304 to fill the last space, but that'll be some time next year at the earliest. The virus has killed my calendar for this year, but I'm hopeful that things will pick up again.
In conclusion, I'm still pleased with them. They're excellent amplifiers in every way I can think of, and if the fans were a bit quieter they'd work well for HiFi or home-theatre purposes, too.
Here's the current rack:
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/59f09e_6c647b4a703c4d78aa0153f0d7923010~mv2_d_3492_3492_s_4_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_788,h_788,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/59f09e_6c647b4a703c4d78aa0153f0d7923010~mv2_d_3492_3492_s_4_2.webp)
Cheers, all.
Chris
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Well, I've had a T304 for a while. I had originally planned on using one for stage monitors, but for now it's been acting as a stand-in for the T604 that's out for repairs.
The T304 is more of the same, really: clean, solid sound with all the benefits we've discussed previously. I haven't noticed an obvious lack of headroom that you might expect from the smaller amp - it's just got on with it and done the job, even when I was running on a too-small (provided by venue) generator and had to clamp the main current down as low as it'd go - 3A, and running on a squishy 207v.
I continue to be impressed by the amplifiers themselves. To say the servicing side needs work would be an understatement, but I'm assured that Powersoft are working hard to get things up to speed there.
Chris
So wait a minute here. What am I missing? You bought the T604 less than a year and a half ago and now it's out for repair?
Not certain this a good sign.
Tell us what went wrong please and maybe a little bit more clarity on "the servicing side needs work would be an understatement" comment.
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So wait a minute here. What am I missing? You bought the T604 less than a year and a half ago and now it's out for repair?
Not certain this a good sign.
Tell us what went wrong please and maybe a little bit more clarity on "the servicing side needs work would be an understatement" comment.
Looks like you missed the part where a T604 was bricked during a firmware update.
It sat at the UK authorised service centre for a few weeks, and then went to Italy. A while later, it returned with a new DSP board. The post you've quoted was from the end of September last year.
You can read the whole saga here: https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,171574.msg1580060.html
I have been assured that Powersoft was over-hauling the servicing side when I had the problems, which resulted in people not implementing the new processes etc. These days, the repair work should be a lot faster and more reliable.
I've had a couple of firmware updates since, and no problems. Nobody else reported the problem I had with that firmware update, so I'm pretty sure it was a one-off.
Chris
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Looks like you missed the part where a T604 was bricked during a firmware update.
It sat at the UK authorised service centre for a few weeks, and then went to Italy. A while later, it returned with a new DSP board. The post you've quoted was from the end of September last year.
You can read the whole saga here: https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,171574.msg1580060.html
I have been assured that Powersoft was over-hauling the servicing side when I had the problems, which resulted in people not implementing the new processes etc. These days, the repair work should be a lot faster and more reliable.
I've had a couple of firmware updates since, and no problems. Nobody else reported the problem I had with that firmware update, so I'm pretty sure it was a one-off.
Chris
Thanks for the link to the saga..... I indeed had missed it. Made for interesting reading. Hope the amp has continued working after repair.
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Touch wood, flawless ever since.
I'm pleased with these amps whenever I use them.
Chris
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Further updates.
I'd finished a new set of speakers earlier this year, and had been waiting on accessing a nice big outdoor space to do some testing. Since we're in lockdown, that's not an option any more. So, I took everything out to my back garden instead.
The speakers are a pair of compact FOH boxes, featuring a Faital Pro 10HX230 coaxial driver, in a medium-sized box tuned to 70Hz. I've rolled a passive crossover for them, since it's a fairly high crossover point (2kHz) and component losses are minimal. I also made a fairly meaty 12" sub to go with them. This setup will be used in smaller venues - rock 'n' roll with minimal drum kit micing, as an example.
Here's what I did:
- Set up the speakers in typical position (on stands etc), one channel per cabinet.
- Using REW, take some measurements. The 10HX230 is very well-behaved - the mid-high range follows the on-axis response, but drops smoothly as you get to 45-degrees off-axis.
- Imported the REW measurements into RePhase, which can be used to make FIR files. You can use a parametric EQ for both frequency and phase response, tell it how many taps you'd like it to use. The maximum allowed on each channel of the T-series amps is 2048, with the expected delay penalty.
- Once RePhase has made the FIR file, import into Armonia+.
- Re-measuring confirmed that the whole thing was working, and then I enjoyed some music.
At one point, I had essentially flat phase and frequency responses from 100Hz upwards, requiring all of the 2048 taps. It sounded the most "correct" I've ever heard a speaker sound, and I spent a while just sitting on the grass enjoying the experience. Background vocals in Fleetwood Mac's Dreams were the most clear I've known, nice sharp transients etc. There wasn't any hint that the amplifiers were operating "down in the noise", despite the power levels being a fraction of a watt most of the time.
Of course, the overall delay was unacceptable for live sound, so I settled for using the custom FIR processing to linearise >600Hz (2.2ms delay IIRC), and an IIR parametric filter to shape the low end and apply a protective highpass filter.
It took a little while to figure out the work-flow to save new speakers in Armonia+, but with that nailed down I can tell the amps which speakers they're connected to, and they organise themselves accordingly.
I'm planning on another T304 to fill the last space, but that'll be some time next year at the earliest. The virus has killed my calendar for this year, but I'm hopeful that things will pick up again.
In conclusion, I'm still pleased with them. They're excellent amplifiers in every way I can think of, and if the fans were a bit quieter they'd work well for HiFi or home-theatre purposes, too.
Here's the current rack:
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/59f09e_6c647b4a703c4d78aa0153f0d7923010~mv2_d_3492_3492_s_4_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_788,h_788,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/59f09e_6c647b4a703c4d78aa0153f0d7923010~mv2_d_3492_3492_s_4_2.webp)
Cheers, all.
Chris
So...Chris, do you have a thread on the build for the speakers anywhere?
To me, THAT sounds awesome :)
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So...Chris, do you have a thread on the build for the speakers anywhere?
To me, THAT sounds awesome :)
Thanks for the interest!
I'm not sure I do have a build thread anywhere, but I'm happy to give some details. Here's a shot from a gig:
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/59f09e_2a2837b25fac4c3da48d27421bdcfb31~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_788,h_1050,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/59f09e_2a2837b25fac4c3da48d27421bdcfb31~mv2.webp)
It's a Faital Pro 10HX230. Ported box, tuned to 70Hz. Low enough for a bit of "punch" in smaller venues if the low end is EQ'd into shape.
During testing, I put one on the T602 (not bridged) and gave the speaker some pain. It put up 125dB continuous sine tones (sweep) above a couple of hundred Hz before it started showing any compression. Distortion was pretty high, but hey, it was a 70v RMS sine tone - a little over 600w into the nominal 8ohm impedance (and we all know it'll drop lower than 8ohm - power delivery probably approached 1KW in some regions).
The drivers are pretty easy to work with - I got the crossover done with just 4x components per cabinet, which was very pleasing.
I took them out for a gig just before the lockdown. Pair of these coaxials, 2x 15" subs, and a couple of monitors. The acts were genuine 1980s disco divas, featuring Artists You've Heard Of If You're Into That Sort Of Music. Lots of positive comments from the acts and organisers about the sound from the main PA - they often came out into the audience to put on more of a show, so I had to make sure my FOH mix was spot-on. Venue was good for a couple of hundred, and the sound was clean and clear throughout, even when I put the pedal down. I think we hit -3dB on the T604 that was running the mains, but since that's a short-term peak, it certainly didn't bother the drivers.
Very pleased with these little boxes. Planning on more of those drivers, or maybe the 8"s, for stage monitors when audio-life gets a bit more normal.
Chris
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Thanks for the interest!
I'm not sure I do have a build thread anywhere, but I'm happy to give some details. Here's a shot from a gig:
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/59f09e_2a2837b25fac4c3da48d27421bdcfb31~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_788,h_1050,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/59f09e_2a2837b25fac4c3da48d27421bdcfb31~mv2.webp)
It's a Faital Pro 10HX230. Ported box, tuned to 70Hz. Low enough for a bit of "punch" in smaller venues if the low end is EQ'd into shape.
During testing, I put one on the T602 (not bridged) and gave the speaker some pain. It put up 125dB continuous sine tones (sweep) above a couple of hundred Hz before it started showing any compression. Distortion was pretty high, but hey, it was a 70v RMS sine tone - a little over 600w into the nominal 8ohm impedance (and we all know it'll drop lower than 8ohm - power delivery probably approached 1KW in some regions).
The drivers are pretty easy to work with - I got the crossover done with just 4x components per cabinet, which was very pleasing.
I took them out for a gig just before the lockdown. Pair of these coaxials, 2x 15" subs, and a couple of monitors. The acts were genuine 1980s disco divas, featuring Artists You've Heard Of If You're Into That Sort Of Music. Lots of positive comments from the acts and organisers about the sound from the main PA - they often came out into the audience to put on more of a show, so I had to make sure my FOH mix was spot-on. Venue was good for a couple of hundred, and the sound was clean and clear throughout, even when I put the pedal down. I think we hit -3dB on the T604 that was running the mains, but since that's a short-term peak, it certainly didn't bother the drivers.
Very pleased with these little boxes. Planning on more of those drivers, or maybe the 8"s, for stage monitors when audio-life gets a bit more normal.
Chris
Really hard to tell, is that a King Air 350?
That sure looks like duct tape on the hangar floor, lol.
Nice design on the speakers.
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Good eye, Scott. I believe it is.
Yeah, it was a corporate gig and they wanted everything taped down as the guests would be walking around afterwards. Talking heads is a nice easy way to break in some new gear.
Chris
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Good eye, Scott. I believe it is.
Yeah, it was a corporate gig and they wanted everything taped down as the guests would be walking around afterwards. Talking heads is a nice easy way to break in some new gear.
Chris
Corporate gigs use to pay the bills, before that task was relegated to my savings. Sorry, little bitter today the zoo just cancelled our annual gig all the way out in August, very hard to get my arms around. This was our largest gig every year and a great way to finish summer. It's not so much me, the our 30 member crew, plus the lighting guys, lot of folks look forward to this 2 day, 16 stage madhouse.
Anyway, I am sure you know but duct tape leaves a mess on your cables and trashes the clients floor. You should always have gaff tape with you. I would have put a skirt on that stand for a corporate gig. Something in a black pleated number :-)
You didn't answer the question, do you know was that a King Air 350?
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Sorry, little bitter today the zoo just cancelled our annual gig all the way out in August, very hard to get my arms around. This was our largest gig every year and a great way to finish summer. It's not so much me, the our 30 member crew, plus the lighting guys, lot of folks look forward to this 2 day, 16 stage madhouse.
Bummer Scott, sorry to hear about that. I know that's one of your flagship gigs too. I'm still holding out hope for the Fourth of July - which is generally my biggest of the year - but I'm not optimistic. Hopefully something will work out but I think the massive productions will be off the table for the foreseeable future...especially considering how much upfront work and cost can be involved with producing them.
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Bummer Scott, sorry to hear about that. I know that's one of your flagship gigs too. I'm still holding out hope for the Fourth of July - which is generally my biggest of the year - but I'm not optimistic. Hopefully something will work out but I think the massive productions will be off the table for the foreseeable future...especially considering how much upfront work and cost can be involved with producing them.
Thanks Jeff it is, and lots of fun. small stages all throughout the zoo where the guests do a pub crawl from stage to stage. We have two bands on main stage that alternate all night and by the last set all 6-8000 attendees are at mainstage and it is a ton of fun. It is also a huge event for our zoo, and we love being part of it.
I should be crying in a bunch of random posts, the parks department deciding to cancel all the summer events was just not a great way to start Monday....my apologies.
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Corporate gigs use to pay the bills, before that task was relegated to my savings. Sorry, little bitter today the zoo just cancelled our annual gig all the way out in August, very hard to get my arms around. This was our largest gig every year and a great way to finish summer. It's not so much me, the our 30 member crew, plus the lighting guys, lot of folks look forward to this 2 day, 16 stage madhouse.
Anyway, I am sure you know but duct tape leaves a mess on your cables and trashes the clients floor. You should always have gaff tape with you. I would have put a skirt on that stand for a corporate gig. Something in a black pleated number :-)
You didn't answer the question, do you know was that a King Air 350?
That's okay, my savings are taking a hit, too. Calendar's wiped completely apart from a couple of tentative bookings towards Winter.
Given that a staggered return to work is likely, offices are likely to be up and running well before music venues. Once things are completely up and running, I expect the sound companies that do survive this will have their pick of customers.
It might well have been gaffer tape that I used - would have to dig out the rolls and check as I can't remember right now. I do remember it came off just fine.
My last post did answer your question about the King Air, although I can see it was a bit ambiguous. I've checked the website, and they do mention King Air as one of the manufacturers this company works with, so it could well be a 350. That said, I really don't know much about planes, so am happy to bow to your superior knowledge on that one.
This particular event was in a working aircraft hangar, but I see your point about skirts for the stands. Something to look into once things are up and running again.
Chris