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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => HistoryOfConcertSound.org => Topic started by: Ivan Beaver on November 17, 2020, 02:38:57 pm

Title: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 17, 2020, 02:38:57 pm
While looking at some old catalogs I have in my office (I have a wall of them, like the amp wall), I noticed this and wanted to share.

This is from Marshall (yes the guitar amp Marshall).  Notice the smallest column and the power rating.

BTW, in the same catalog (1969), they also sell the Marshall Major, a 200 watt continuous guitar amp.

I figure the balance is about right--------------
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Art Welter on November 17, 2020, 04:14:16 pm
This is from Marshall (yes the guitar amp Marshall).  Notice the smallest column and the power rating.

BTW, in the same catalog (1969), they also sell the Marshall Major, a 200 watt continuous guitar amp.

I figure the balance is about right--------------
Balanced  +/- 20dB :^)

Though I can think of PA heads and columns from almost every other manufacturer of guitar amps in the 1960-70 era, this is the first time I recall seeing the Marshall PA gear.

I like the simplicity of the line up, - would you like 2, 3, 5, 6 or 8  3watt 8 inch speakers in your column?
With the Marshall PA amps only putting out 20, 50 or 100 watts, I don't think too many buyers of the 200 watt Marshall Major would have been using them.

Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 17, 2020, 04:56:37 pm
Balanced  +/- 20dB :^)

Though I can think of PA heads and columns from almost every other manufacturer of guitar amps in the 1960-70 era, this is the first time I recall seeing the Marshall PA gear.

I like the simplicity of the line up, - would you like 2, 3, 5, 6 or 8  3watt 8 inch speakers in your column?
With the Marshall PA amps only putting out 20, 50 or 100 watts, I don't think too many buyers of the 200 watt Marshall Major would have been using them.
I have a number of Marshall catalogs with columns.  Some use 12" drivers.

I have one that has the "Marshall Disco system".  YEAH.  It has 2 cabinets with a single 12" in them, a 100 watt head and dual turntable/mixer case.

The later Marshall PAs included dual 15" bins (look kinda like scoops, but have grills, so hard to say), radial horns etc, 250 watt amplifiers and 12 channel mixers.  That must have been the stuff Deep Purple was using when the set the worlds record for loudest band.  110dB, with a 10,000 watt Marshall PA.  NO, the Guiness book of world records didn't state the weighting or the distance with that spec.  That was around '76 or so?????
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Dave Pluke on November 18, 2020, 10:28:43 am
BTW, in the same catalog (1969), they also sell the Marshall Major, a 200 watt continuous guitar amp.

Ah, yes, the Marshall Major - aka Spontaneous Combustion Machine  ;D .  Too much heat from those KT88's in too small a cabinet.

Here's what HIWATT was offering for PA by the mid 70's:

I don't know of anyone who actually used them, though.  Most early Brit PA stuff I recall seeing were WEM or VOX.

Dave
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 18, 2020, 03:06:25 pm
Ah, yes, the Marshall Major - aka Spontaneous Combustion Machine  ;D .  Too much heat from those KT88's in too small a cabinet.

Here's what HIWATT was offering for PA by the mid 70's:

I don't know of anyone who actually used them, though.  Most early Brit PA stuff I recall seeing were WEM or VOX.

Dave
I must say I have never heard of a Hiwatt PA.

But then again, I had never heard of Ovation (the guitar company) PAs either, until I got a catalog.

Of course Gibson made PAs as well.  Even into the early 2000s.  I remember at a  NSCA show, Gibson set up a wrestling ring and you could watch the "Gibson man" defeat the competition-----------

Oh, and the PA gear looked like 1950s era cars------

Never heard of it before or after.  I wonder how much they spent on that show and development of the gear.  It must have been a small fortune.

Everybody was laughing at the "show".
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: TrevorMilburn on November 23, 2020, 03:37:20 pm
While looking at some old catalogs I have in my office (I have a wall of them, like the amp wall), I noticed this and wanted to share.

This is from Marshall (yes the guitar amp Marshall).  Notice the smallest column and the power rating.

BTW, in the same catalog (1969), they also sell the Marshall Major, a 200 watt continuous guitar amp.

I figure the balance is about right--------------

Ivan, a snippet of memory from 12 years ago for you - a post from 2008.
An advert for Marshall P.A. systems circa 1971 - the advert talks about the Weeley festival which was a 3 day outdoor festival held in the Essex countryside near Clacton On Sea August 27th-29th 1971 which I was lucky enough to attend (my first festival). The PA consisted pretty much solely of the Marshall 4 x 12 cabs in the ad (some 40 odd per side)with some horns added for good measure.On the Sunday night, a different, very new PA system from Kelsey and Morris consisting of RCA and more modern w-bins and various multicellular and sectoral horns was switched on to replace the old school Marshall system but was woefully inadequate for the task (think modern sidefill size) and the Marshall system was turned back on to the delight of the crowd.

(https://darkerthanblue.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/weeley-marshall-ad.jpg)

More about the festival an PA system here:

http://www.ukrockfestivals.com/weeley-festival-PA.html (http://www.ukrockfestivals.com/weeley-festival-PA.html)
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 23, 2020, 04:46:09 pm
Ivan, a snippet of memory from 12 years ago for you - a post from 2008.
An advert for Marshall P.A. systems circa 1971 - the advert talks about the Weeley festival which was a 3 day outdoor festival held in the Essex countryside near Clacton On Sea August 27th-29th 1971 which I was lucky enough to attend (my first festival). The PA consisted pretty much solely of the Marshall 4 x 12 cabs in the ad (some 40 odd per side)with some horns added for good measure.On the Sunday night, a different, very new PA system from Kelsey and Morris consisting of RCA and more modern w-bins and various multicellular and sectoral horns was switched on to replace the old school Marshall system but was woefully inadequate for the task (think modern sidefill size) and the Marshall system was turned back on to the delight of the crowd.

(https://darkerthanblue.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/weeley-marshall-ad.jpg)

More about the festival an PA system here:

http://www.ukrockfestivals.com/weeley-festival-PA.html (http://www.ukrockfestivals.com/weeley-festival-PA.html)
That is interesting, as I read a different article with a TOTALLY different outcome.

What I read was that the other system was hired in for Rod Stewart, and was to be used just by him.  But when people could not hear at the back with the Marshall system, Rods system was turned on to help out.

I had no idea that they used so many of the Marshall columns  40 per side should make a "bit" of noise.

I wasn't there, but can only go on what I have read.  It is interesting hearing a different take from you.

Just like many things, you don't know what to believe.

BTW that ad is still on my office bathroom wall.  Whatever the outcome----
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: TrevorMilburn on November 24, 2020, 05:15:54 pm
That is interesting, as I read a different article with a TOTALLY different outcome.

What I read was that the other system was hired in for Rod Stewart, and was to be used just by him.  But when people could not hear at the back with the Marshall system, Rods system was turned on to help out.

I had no idea that they used so many of the Marshall columns  40 per side should make a "bit" of noise.

I wasn't there, but can only go on what I have read.  It is interesting hearing a different take from you.

Just like many things, you don't know what to believe.

BTW that ad is still on my office bathroom wall.  Whatever the outcome----
Ivan, I was about 75 metres and at about 45 degrees or so from the front of the stage and when the new system was turned on for Rod, it was almost inaudible. This was also the case for those directly in front of the stage and about the same distance away. This was before the first really big American style PA systems (mostly JBL) hit the UK and before even  Dave Martin's 215 bin hit the scene so I think probably the system was demoed in a hall or cinema somewhere and was deemed man enough for the gig on first hearing but was totally inadequate for the real job. The Marshall system, although huge for the time, was not really hifi  by any means and was lacking in bass but on par with other offerings available at the time. A few years later, things had completely changed with the big boys  (IES et al)  bringing in huge stacks of 4550s and 4560s and piles of horns and tweeter arrays that  changed the ways festivals were experienced by the audiences. At the same time, Martin bins in their various forms came on the scene followed by MEH and their Harwell systems and the rest, as they say, is history.
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 24, 2020, 08:41:52 pm
Ivan, I was about 75 metres and at about 45 degrees or so from the front of the stage and when the new system was turned on for Rod, it was almost inaudible. This was also the case for those directly in front of the stage and about the same distance away. This was before the first really big American style PA systems (mostly JBL) hit the UK and before even  Dave Martin's 215 bin hit the scene so I think probably the system was demoed in a hall or cinema somewhere and was deemed man enough for the gig on first hearing but was totally inadequate for the real job. The Marshall system, although huge for the time, was not really hifi  by any means and was lacking in bass but on par with other offerings available at the time. A few years later, things had completely changed with the big boys  (IES et al)  bringing in huge stacks of 4550s and 4560s and piles of horns and tweeter arrays that  changed the ways festivals were experienced by the audiences. At the same time, Martin bins in their various forms came on the scene followed by MEH and their Harwell systems and the rest, as they say, is history.
Thanks.  It could be that I read the article the wrong way, about which system was lacking.

Back in those days lots of different things were tried, and failed.  I know I had my share of things that didn't turn out as expected.

Yeah, going outside and a further distance makes a HUGE difference.

I appreciate your personal input/experience

When they invent the time machine, I want to go back in time to Woodstock and some of my early gigs and see how it REALLY sounded.
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: lindsay Dean on November 25, 2020, 01:48:32 pm
Nostalgic to see the words "long throw" on the Marshall advertising pamphlet
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Chris Hindle on November 26, 2020, 08:23:35 am
Nostalgic to see the words "long throw" on the Marshall advertising pamphlet
I dunno Lindsay....
(not talking arena's or stadiums)
"Point that 4x12 at me, don't be surprised if there's nothing on the board tapes" comes to mind.... ::)
Chris
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Mike Caldwell on November 26, 2020, 05:04:03 pm
I could see where some creative stacking configurations could make 40 some odd 4X12 pa cabinets per side less bad.
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Art Welter on November 26, 2020, 05:19:27 pm

The later Marshall PAs included dual 15" bins (look kinda like scoops, but have grills, so hard to say), radial horns etc, 250 watt amplifiers and 12 channel mixers.  That must have been the stuff Deep Purple was using when the set the worlds record for loudest band.  110dB, with a 10,000 watt Marshall PA.  NO, the Guiness book of world records didn't state the weighting or the distance with that spec.  That was around '76 or so?????
Summer of 1975,  I put together an all-horn system (8 bass drivers, 12 high drivers) for an outdoor show for the Minneapolis band "Rockinghorse". I would estimate that system could hit over 110 dBC at 16 meters.

Although it was the loudest system I'd ever heard up to then, it was by no means a "record breaker" for the time, so "for the record":

The Guinness "loudest band" category started in 1972, when it recorded Deep Purple at the London Rainbow Theatre at 117 dB.
The Who’s 1976 record was 126 dB at a distance of 32 meters outdoors.
That stood until 1984, when in Hanover, Germany, Manowar hit 129.5 decibels.
Guinness no longer includes a category of "loudest band" ;^).

Art
 


Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Scott Holtzman on November 27, 2020, 01:16:38 am
Summer of 1975,  I put together an all-horn system (8 bass drivers, 12 high drivers) for an outdoor show for the Minneapolis band "Rockinghorse". I would estimate that system could hit over 110 dBC at 16 meters.

Although it was the loudest system I'd ever heard up to then, it was by no means a "record breaker" for the time, so "for the record":

The Guinness "loudest band" category started in 1972, when it recorded Deep Purple at the London Rainbow Theatre at 117 dB.
The Who’s 1976 record was 126 dB at a distance of 32 meters outdoors.
That stood until 1984, when in Hanover, Germany, Manowar hit 129.5 decibels.
Guinness no longer includes a category of "loudest band" ;^).

Art


ManoWar's audio engineer Jeff Hair is a Cleveland audio legend.  Really nice guy too.


https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10155221681288517

https://www.camco-audio.com/news2.html





Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Daniel Levi on November 27, 2020, 04:24:25 am

ManoWar's audio engineer Jeff Hair is a Cleveland audio legend.  Really nice guy too.


https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10155221681288517

https://www.camco-audio.com/news2.html

I would assume pretty deaf by this point unless he had hearing protection, must have been deafening concerts.

I suppose back in the day given that PA's were not as directional as they can be now, without delay stacks, you needed a lot more volume out front to get a decent level at the back.
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Chris Hindle on November 27, 2020, 12:32:02 pm
I would assume pretty deaf by this point unless he had hearing protection, must have been deafening concerts.

I suppose back in the day given that PA's were not as directional as they can be now, without delay stacks, you needed a lot more volume out front to get a decent level at the back.
I believe it was Angus from AC/DC that once said "Lads, if we can land a man on the moon, why can't they hear my guitar at the back of the hall?"
AC/DC was never known to have a quiet stage.....
Chris.
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Jeff Bankston on November 27, 2020, 10:07:35 pm

ManoWar's audio engineer Jeff Hair is a Cleveland audio legend.  Really nice guy too.


https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10155221681288517

https://www.camco-audio.com/news2.html
I went to a manowar concert at the Country Club in Reseda Ca. It was so loud my earplugs ran away. I stayed for 2 songs and ran away.
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Lee Buckalew on November 30, 2020, 11:07:23 am

ManoWar's audio engineer Jeff Hair is a Cleveland audio legend.  Really nice guy too.


Topic swerve.

I've never met Jeff but Scott Columbus, Manowar's drummer throughout the '80's used to sit in with a high school rock band that I ran sound for (when I was in high school in the 80's).  Scott was a good guy. RIP.

Lee Buckalew
Title: Re: Early Marshall Line Sources
Post by: Ivan Beaver on November 30, 2020, 03:47:28 pm
I went to a manowar concert at the Country Club in Reseda Ca. It was so loud my earplugs ran away. I stayed for 2 songs and ran away.
Tom Danley likes to tell the story from the '80s when Manowar visited Intersonics, interested in the Servodrive cabinets.

They were "decked out" as usual, and walking down a hallway, when some NASA guys in white coats came into the same hallway, and the NASA guys pinned themselves against the wall, hoping they would not be killed-----------

Intersonics made gear for the space Shuttle (their primary business) and loud sub cabinets in the same building, under the same management.