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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Subwoofer Forum => Topic started by: chuck clark on May 23, 2015, 09:23:16 AM
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Done a good bit of looking around. The Cerwin Vega TS 42's have a SERIOUS performance spec. A bit big, but under 250 lbs. with built in wheels so 1 guy can ramp it into the trailer/truck. Very efficient, so you can get full performance without having to fork out the big bucks for mega-watt amps. I know a guy whose buying old Crown CE 2000's and strapping them in mono for 2000 watts each. He's achieving stunning volume levels without clipping! Hmmm. Available for under $ 1500 a box! Good ol' Cerwin Vega! Should these be crowned the current "bang for buck" kings?
Chuck
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Done a good bit of looking around. The Cerwin Vega TS 42's have a SERIOUS performance spec. A bit big, but under 250 lbs. with built in wheels so 1 guy can ramp it into the trailer/truck. Very efficient, so you can get full performance without having to fork out the big bucks for mega-watt amps. I know a guy whose buying old Crown CE 2000's and strapping them in mono for 2000 watts each. He's achieving stunning volume levels without clipping! Hmmm. Available for under $ 1500 a box! Good ol' Cerwin Vega! Should these be crowned the current "bang for buck" kings?
Chuck
I have no idea about the speakers in question-but often you need to look a bit closer than "simple numbers".
How low do you need to REALLY go?
For some styles 50Hz is fine.
For others 30 hz is acceptable.
And for others, 20Hz is needed in order to accurately reproduce what the artist is producing.
The next question is what is the REAL response of any sub you are looking at-I am not talking about what numbers are on the spec sheet.
Look at the measured response (WITHOUT processing) to get an idea of the realistic capabilities.
If the measured response includes "processing"-then often that includes boosting at the lower freq.
This can work at lower levels, but as you turn it up you will "run out of gas" at the freq that were boosted.
So what you "think" you are getting is very different from reality.
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Done a good bit of looking around. The Cerwin Vega TS 42's have a SERIOUS performance spec. A bit big, but under 250 lbs. with built in wheels so 1 guy can ramp it into the trailer/truck. Very efficient, so you can get full performance without having to fork out the big bucks for mega-watt amps. I know a guy whose buying old Crown CE 2000's and strapping them in mono for 2000 watts each. He's achieving stunning volume levels without clipping! Hmmm. Available for under $ 1500 a box! Good ol' Cerwin Vega! Should these be crowned the current "bang for buck" kings?
Chuck
No. Because they SERIOUSLY lie about their capabilities.
CE2000's have a bad habit of dying randomly. You can't predict it or prevent it. The CE4000 is safe to use, but not the 1000 or 2000. There's a reason why they are so cheap.
It would cost 3000 to buy 2 CV TS-42's. For that kind of money you could buy 4 dual 18's on the used market and have a rig that is much better suited to EDM. You could also buy 3 PRX-XLF subs and have the amps already built in. Since you wouldn't have to buy multiple amps to run them, you could buy another XLF and make it a nice even number.
OR, buy some JTR subs and really get down to business.
OR, buy a single TH812 and a couple giga-watt amps and melt faces. Thats what I would do.
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How low do you need to REALLY go?
For others 30 hz is acceptable.
So what you "think" you are getting is very different from reality.
Um yeah, I've been mixing for over 30 years. and at one point owned 16 CV PE 36's so, what I "think"
I'm getting is actually pretty well ironed out by now, thanks. I know that spec sheets suffer from everything from typo's to outright lying so I only use them as a starting point. I know that the horn quits adding efficiency at the 1/4 wavelength so the 6' horn on my old earthquakes calculates a corner freq. of 46hz while the TS 42's are pretty obviously an updated version of the ol' earthquakes on steroids. An 8' horn calculates to quit adding efficiency below 35hz. The Stroker" technology tells me that engineering has improved the linear excursion and voice coil cooling and added a 3rd spider for voice coil stability under heavy use. Not something cheapo manufacturers do or are sometimes even aware of. I'm happily playing Skrillex tracs thru my PA and I'm filtering everything below 30hz. Although it's a good 12 db down or so I can still hear 20 hz pretty well on my test tones. While your right of course that too many people are too trusting of spec numbers, ask yourself what a 21" good linear excursion driver on an 8' horn from an experienced manufacturer of good bass boxes probably gonna do? If you guessed "Knock some nuts!" you'd be right.
Chuck
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No. Because they SERIOUSLY lie about their capabilities.
OR, buy some JTR subs and really get down to business.
OR, buy a single TH812 and a couple giga-watt amps and melt faces. Thats what I would do.
Gee Tim, Cerwin Vega's been around a long time. Pretty well known quantity. My 25 yrs. of first hand experience with them says marketing may fudge a little and be subject to hyperbole but to call engineering outright liars is a tad extreme and not really fair. Their are WAY worse out there. I've always found their products to be good quality and not junk, which is more than I can say for some other manufacturers.
I'll never forget the 1st time I turned on a new CE2000 @ guitar center. PIFF! Something blew and the power indicator lamp went back out. "Well that's impressive" I said to the sales guy. This was with nothing hooked up neither input or output - just power up and Pifft! I thought that after an initial bad part run the issue was cleared up. Anyway I had no good impression of them either, but a DJ friend had gotten his hands on a couple for cheap and came to me for help. I told him the only way to MAYBE get enough power out of these is strap em into mono. I helped him wire them up and we hooked them to some old Soundtech double 18's in the shop to test them and... holy crap! Everything in the shop was vibrating and it seemed like the speakers were gonna come out of the boxes. I glanced at the indicator lights and ...No clipping! Ok, I thought to myself, that's definitely how to run those. Lol. He got em used for $200 each and a little bit of shipping. He's DJ'ing shows with them and is very happy. (He's young and strong so the weight doesn't bother him)
A couple questions: What kind of double 18's are you finding for $750 (4 for 3000)
and don't TH 812's weigh like 500+ lbs? Seriously, how do you plan on moving these around?
I love Orbit Shifters but aren't they $$$? I have an absolute limit of $1999 per box WITH amplification
Have a great day!
Chuck
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Cost per box is arbitrary. Total cost for sub(s) and amp(s) is important. I'd rather have one amazing sub and amp than lots of mediocre stuff.
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and don't TH 812's weigh like 500+ lbs?
Yes they are heavy-but you must ALSO ask-how much would "regular" cabinets weigh that can produce the same SPL at the same low freq response?
You will quickly find out that regular cabinets would weigh more and take up more space in the truck-so now the TH812 looks light and small.
We move them around all the time-How do you think we do demos with them. We just push them in and out of the trucks-trailers etc. If we flip them- a couple of guys do it pretty easy. However we don't carry them up steps or flip them with 1 person.
But I doubt if you are doing gigs up steps you need the output of the TH812. What is the rest of the system in that case?
There is a reason that the TH812s have been used in a lot of stadiums-where the weight of the sound system is a concern in terms of structure support. The reason? The designers get more output with less weight.
It is the TOTAL (weight-size-cost etc) for a specific performance that is important-NOT the individual pieces.
It all depends on what you are looking at doing.
There are lots of different tools for different reasons.
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Chuck it sounds like you already came in here with your mind made up. What's the point of asking a question if you're just going to bash two well respected members of the forum just because they didn't validate your wishful thinking? There's a reason people don't use the CV subs and that's because they just aren't very good. They can get loud at a certain frequency but they don't sound good doing it. There's a reason these are called 'one note wonders'.
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My first PA was 2 CV V35's and they sounded great for what was available at the time. We always got compliments on our sound. But this was the 70's/80's. I also had a pair of CV "studio monitors" that had good clarity. Made for a great home system when I gave up on my studio dreams. Disclaimer, I got them for "almost free"
I honestly find it hard to beleive that CV, with all these years of experience, would produce a substandard product. They've made a lot of subs over the years.
While they may not be my first choice, users on a budget would probably be better looking at CV offerings rather than some others. Seismic comes to mind as well as Guitar Ctr offerings.
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Chuck it sounds like you already came in here with your mind made up. What's the point of asking a question if you're just going to bash two well respected members of the forum just because they didn't validate your wishful thinking? There's a reason people don't use the CV subs and that's because they just aren't very good. They can get loud at a certain frequency but they don't sound good doing it. There's a reason these are called 'one note wonders'.
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I hold both Ivan and Tim in high regard and had zero intent of bashing anyone personally. I answered them both calmly,with logic and 1st hand experience. After designing, building, installing, repairing and tuning sound systems for 30 yrs. I can assure you there is precious little "wishful thinking" on my part. When you own 16 units and someone tells you those speakers aren't very good it makes you think "well, thanks for enlightening me. REALLY!? Thankgoodness I have you to clue me in." Sorry. Actually you illustrate my point exactly, which is that as a fairly high performing subwoofer with some similarities to some of the best subs money can buy, the cerwin vega ts 42's seem to be the Rodney Dangerfields of subwoofer world. Consistently good , yet- NO respect I tell ya! By the way, I think it's band pass subwoofer designs that are referred to as "one note" The CV's are horn loaded , not bandpass. Have a very nice day!
Chuck
Chuck
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Hey
I have to agree with what the others say to be honest.
It's important to note I haven't heard it personally so couldn't say for certain, but I would be VERY surprised if the CV speaker you've linked is able to perform at the specs listed.
You mention 8' horn length, but I don't see that listed anywhere on the page. For a 21" driver and the slightly larger chamber that will need (compared to a hornloaded 18" for example) I don't see really how there could be room for that in the box, I'd estimate 6' most.
108db sensitivity and -3db at 35hz are also very hard to believe from a box like this. While I agree that "lies" is a strong word it's definitely exaggeration, whether they've used 2.83v at 4 ohms instead of 8, or the sensitivity and spl results are well out of band, or whatever, there's definitely something not quite right here.
Looking at similar horn products, take for example the EM acoustics "quake" subwoofer, a very well regarded 18" horn sub. While the spec's don't seem quite as impressive I would bet they are far more honest, and I would happily put my money on the Quakes wiping the floor with the CV subs.
I'm sure the CV's will still sound OK, but they're definitely a middle of the road company now and nowhere near what they once were.
I suppose the easiest thing to do in recommending some alternatives is to know a bit more about your situation.....
-When you say "$1999 per box with amps" how many boxes is that, do you mean just one box a side? It would be better to know an overall budget.
-Do you want a scalable system where you can just take one or two subs out for small shows or more for bigger? Or will you always be taking the full system out?
- What sizes of venues/shows are you generally playing? Indoors or out?
I think if you take a couple of recomendations and do some listening tests to compare to other speakers, you'll find there are other options that could serve you better.
k
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By the way, I think it's band pass subwoofer designs that are referred to as "one note" The CV's are horn loaded , not bandpass. Have a very nice day!
"one note wonders" are not a specific design type-but rather an overall performance type that is based on the specific freq response of the product-NOT the type of product.
Yes bandpass cabinets can be very much a "one note wonder" but they can also have a pretty wide response-at the expense of shear output at some freq.
Horn designs can be the same thing (as proven by some designs). THey can get really loud over a very narrow range of freq-but do not extend very low.
You can even do the same thing (to a certain extent) with a simple ported design.
It is NOT about a specific design, but rather a set of tradeoffs to get a specific end result.
The "one note wonders" sacrifice overall freq response (specifically on the low freq) in order to "get loud".
A quick look at the ACTUAL freq response (NOT the simple numbers on the spec sheet-which often don't mean anything)
Heck- every loudspeaker EVER made (including tweeters) can EASILY reproduce 1Hz Yes ONE Hertz. But on a response graph you would not see this-but it could be put on the spec sheet under "freq response" and they would not be lying-----------
To some people loudness is more important than any sonic qualities.
But it all depends on what you are looking for-and different people look for different things.
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Hey
I have to agree with what the others say to be honest.
It's important to note I haven't heard it personally so couldn't say for certain, but I would be VERY surprised if the CV speaker you've linked is able to perform at the specs listed.
You mention 8' horn length, but I don't see that listed anywhere on the page. For a 21" driver and the slightly larger chamber that will need (compared to a hornloaded 18" for example) I don't see really how there could be room for that in the box, I'd estimate 6' most.
108db sensitivity and -3db at 35hz are also very hard to believe from a box like this. While I agree that "lies" is a strong word it's definitely exaggeration, whether they've used 2.83v at 4 ohms instead of 8, or the sensitivity and spl results are well out of band, or whatever, there's definitely something not quite right here.
Looking at similar horn products, take for example the EM acoustics "quake" subwoofer, a very well regarded 18" horn sub. While the spec's don't seem quite as impressive I would bet they are far more honest, and I would happily put my money on the Quakes wiping the floor with the CV subs.
I'm sure the CV's will still sound OK, but they're definitely a middle of the road company now and nowhere near what they once were.
I suppose the easiest thing to do in recommending some alternatives is to know a bit more about your situation.....
-When you say "$1999 per box with amps" how many boxes is that, do you mean just one box a side? It would be better to know an overall budget.
-Do you want a scalable system where you can just take one or two subs out for small shows or more for bigger? Or will you always be taking the full system out?
- What sizes of venues/shows are you generally playing? Indoors or out?
I think if you take a couple of recomendations and do some listening tests to compare to other speakers, you'll find there are other options that could serve you better.
k
AH! Good ol' Quakes.. I had forgotten about them! Well let's see, the quakes are listed as 47" tall and 37" deep so thats 84". The CV's are roughly 43" by 43" so thats 86". Quakes list their horn as being 9' soo, if you doubt the CV's are 8' I have to wonder why?
Actually the quakes seem to be extremely similar and a very good example of old school designs that are good enough to do gigs w/ "new" music.
The CV's have a 2" longer horn. The CV's have a 21" instead of an 18" so -moving a bit more air.
The CV's are rated at 1000rms and 2000peak. The Quakes 800rms and 1600 peak. These boxes appear to be so close that telling the difference might be the biggest challenge. Yet while I am struck by their similarity, you say the quakes are well regarded and would wipe the floor with the "middle of the road" Cv's. Gee Kev, prejudice much?
I only have one question. How many quid are quakes bringing these days? Need to compare them with the $1499 MAP on the Cerwins. Thanks!
Chuck
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Lol, NEW super tweeters with frequency responce to 1hz! (-110db) Now you've done it Ivan. people will be asking when Danley is coming out with this product. LOL!
As usual you are technically correct, There's plenty of cut corner cheap design's out there, but surely your not accusing Gene Cerwinski's award winning (at the time) folded horn design of being faulty!? In all fairness they were around for 25+ yrs. before the term "one note" was coined to describe certain highly efficient but obnoxiously narrow band car subwoofer systems that were surging in popularity at the time.
Chuck
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AH! Good ol' Quakes.. I had forgotten about them! Well let's see, the quakes are listed as 47" tall and 37" deep so thats 84". The CV's are roughly 43" by 43" so thats 86". Quakes list their horn as being 9' soo, if you doubt the CV's are 8' I have to wonder why?
Actually the quakes seem to be extremely similar and a very good example of old school designs that are good enough to do gigs w/ "new" music.
The CV's have a 2" longer horn. The CV's have a 21" instead of an 18" so -moving a bit more air.
The CV's are rated at 1000rms and 2000peak. The Quakes 800rms and 1600 peak. These boxes appear to be so close that telling the difference might be the biggest challenge. Yet while I am struck by their similarity, you say the quakes are well regarded and would wipe the floor with the "middle of the road" Cv's. Gee Kev, prejudice much?
I only have one question. How many quid are quakes bringing these days? Need to compare them with the $1499 MAP on the Cerwins. Thanks!
Chuck
Hi there
No not prejudice at all, just experience.
Firstly on the horn length, as you say the speaker boxes are a broadly similar size. The quake sub is based around basically the precision devices 1850 driver. It has a very stiff suspension, high power magnet, and is designed to work in horn speakers with small rear chambers.
Thee larger 21" driver of the CV sub will take up more space physically on its own and leave less room for horn path, however I don't think it's suspension or cone would be able to survive the pressures of a similarly small chamber, so it'll have a much bigger rear chamber, and the first horn section will have a much bigger throat to lower the compression rate, again lowering the simple physical space inside to fit the horn even more.
So as I say, I would estimate a shorter horn 6' at most, maybe even slightly shorter. There are some pictures of the sub layout in the brochure that's available from the website, I'll scale this is and measure, work it out exactly, when I get home.
And in terms of response and sound, again it's just based on experience. While the driver has more surface area being a 21" I don't think it'll be the same quality as the PD of the quake.
While it may be 1000w, all that tells you is that it can take the heat generated by 1000 in the voice coil without melting, doesn't actually tell you what it does with those watts or how efficiently it can covert those watts into sound. Being a bigger driver, with more mass in the cone it'll almost certainly be lower sensitivity than the quake driver.
Lower sensitivity, smaller compression ratio at the horn throat, and on that shorter horn there is simply no possible way they can reach that sensitivity figure.
Either they've looked at the sensitivity at 300hz or 1000hz or something, which is not a frequency that the sub would realistically play, or they've measured it at 4 ohms or some other trick of the small print to inflate the numbers. And the max spl will be the same.
Now I happily admit that I could be wrong. Maybe I would listen and compare the two and be blown away by the CV, as I said at the start of my other post I've never heard it. But these are all confident predictions based on experience with many different brands of speakers.
Wood is wood, and assuming the horn path and other things about the box are designed well, there's not masses can go wrong with that part. But I simply don't think the quality of the driver will be the same, they're definitely a middle brand now and not top tear.
In terms of prejudice it's seems, I would humbly submit, that the main person here is you towards CV more than anyone else.
I would be genuinely interested in hearing your thoughts though if you managed to compare them. A stack of 4 to get the proper mouth area against 4 quakes, 4 wsx or other high level horn loaded subs would be an interesting test.
K
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but surely your not accusing Gene Cerwinski's award winning (at the time) folded horn design of being faulty!?
I never said anything like that. The "snail" design is a totally valid way to fold a horn. Many people have done it-because it works.
But with ANY loudspeaker design-there are tradeoffs. You can get louder or lower or flatter etc-but not all at once. The final design takes into account the "target market" and what they are looking for, what they "test techniques" are and so forth.
What is important to one person is not so important to other people.
As usual-It depends.
And BTW, you can win awards for all kinds of different things.
In terms of loudspeakers it could be simple loudness-or flat response-or extension or the fact that somebody wanted to "give an award".
I love it at trade shows when they go around to manufacturers and ask them if they want to be included in the "best new product" or something like that.
But you ONLY get to be included if you PAY the entrance fee.
If you don't pay-then you are not considered-no matter how good the product is.
So what it SHOULD say is "Best new product based on who know what criteria of the people who PAID to be considered".
In my opinion it means nothing. Payola goes a long way--------
I remember reading an article once and they were talking about the steak house adds that said something like "Chosen by the Texas steak house cattlemans association as the best steak house in Texas".
OK, But the funny thing was that there were only 2 members of this "organization", and they were also the owners of the steakhouse in question.
You can say all kinds of things-it is backing them up with facts that is a bit harder.
I honestly think that is why the current trend of not providing any real useful specs is getting popular-even at the highest levels of our industry.
How are specs for the wattage of an amp like "adequate" useful?
What does a the spec of "normal" or "wide" tell you about a loudspeakers coverage?
I guess if you don't put down any real numbers-then nobody can hold you to them-or accuse you of "not meeting your specs"----------
Maybe those specs are useful to somebody-not me.
There I go again trying to get practical-----
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Hey
Just to confirm, just drew up a scale drawing from the picture of the TS-42 in the brochure, and even being generous I make it about 77", which is about 6'5". A touch more than the 6' I suspected but very close, definitely not close to 8'.
k
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Hey
Just to confirm, just drew up a scale drawing from the picture of the TS-42 in the brochure, and even being generous I make it about 77", which is about 6'5". A touch more than the 6' I suspected but very close, definitely not close to 8'.
k
It is not as "simple" as the actual path length may suggest.
In a "straight horn"-it pretty much is that simple.
But in a folded horn-rarely is the horn path nice and smooth-and expanding evenly.
So it is more the " equivalent air volume" in the horn, rather than the actual length.
This can make it longer or shorter than the length-at least in terms of where the low corner is.
So once again-it depends--------
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From the website: "The TS-42 Folded Horn delivers more bass per square inch than other subwoofer designs and includes a curved horn mouth bracing for smoother frequency response"
I've built a few cabinets over the years. I fail to see what having an arc in the vertical center brace does for the performance of the cabinet. Or how it "smooths" the response. If anything, whatever resistance is offered by a 3/4" brace is completely different over the height of the mouth the way they've configured it. Again, I don't think it makes any appreciable difference but I could see trying to arc it inward so that whatever it's effect is, it's even over the path length.
Such non-technical hype is a red flag for me. When I see someone BS'ing me about things I understand, I figure that they're surely BS'ing me on things I can't see or don't understand.
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From the website: "The TS-42 Folded Horn delivers more bass per square inch than other subwoofer designs
I guess it depends on how you define "bass" and "square inch".
I've never seen the measurement of "bass per square inch" on products to be able to compare.
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Haha! You would think that they would say per cubic inch to at least suggest you get more sound for the size of the box. Of course, that ought to have a qualifier regarding how much at which frequencies and with how much power input, but then you'd know what the box could really do.
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There are a pair of LAB subs for sale for low $$. If I wanted some inexpensive monster subs they would my first choice.
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From the website: "The TS-42 Folded Horn delivers more bass per square inch than other subwoofer designs and includes a curved horn mouth bracing for smoother frequency response"
I've built a few cabinets over the years. I fail to see what having an arc in the vertical center brace does for the performance of the cabinet. Or how it "smooths" the response. If anything, whatever resistance is offered by a 3/4" brace is completely different over the height of the mouth the way they've configured it. Again, I don't think it makes any appreciable difference but I could see trying to arc it inward so that whatever it's effect is, it's even over the path length.
Such non-technical hype is a red flag for me. When I see someone BS'ing me about things I understand, I figure that they're surely BS'ing me on things I can't see or don't understand.
Up until a few weeks ago I would have totally agreed with you Steve. Couldn't give a rats behind about the shape of the brace as long as it doesn't rattle!
- Then I got schooled by Ivan on impedance ripples at the mouth of the horn being smoothed by adjacent boxes and then I got FURTHER schooled by Tom Danley (yes, that Tom Danley) about the "bubble" effect where the horn loading effect extends somewhat beyond the mouth of the horn. Pretty humbling for a know it all type like myself! But I appreciated it. So don't dis' the CV guys for doing something it turns out is acoustically correct. Have a wonderful day!
Chuck
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There are a pair of LAB subs for sale for low $$. If I wanted some inexpensive monster subs they would my first choice.
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Great suggestion Rob, but I always wonder about the quality of homebuilts from 1 box to the next. Also, if you need to get a matching pair next year good luck finding them, eh? Savy guys like you can navigate the used market but most buyers are more comfortable w/ factory build and a warrantee.
Some homebuilts are probly BETTER than some of the cheapo boxes out there (LOL) but how would you know which ones are which? Again, Good luck!
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I always wonder about the quality of homebuilts from 1 box to the next. Also, if you need to get a matching pair next year good luck finding them, eh?
I think the best way to guarantee a match is to make them yourself!
Steve.
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We picked up 8 of these home builds for $400 a piece. Very efficient 8 ohms, we can run 4 off of an itech4000 or all 8 of off one macrotech 5000. This puts out an amazing amount of musical low end bass for under $800 per box.