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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Kevin Messerschmidt on November 18, 2011, 11:44:13 PM
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I just got a chance to demo a si compact. I was pretty disappointed. It could be a great mixer but when you consider the price, I believe it missed the mark. I felt like it was only slighty better than a studiolive. If it is it is only due to recallable preamps, moving faders and glowing fader colors. Other than that it feels cheap, lacks a ton of features found on other mixers in it's price range and just left me wanting more. Too bad, I was excited about it going in.
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Curious... As I own three of them, very much like them, and myself and my team have discovered that they're generally 'everything that we need, with little extra and little missing' - what are you comparing them to and what missing features bother you? In my mind, moving faders and recallable preamps are more then a minor improvement over a studiolive.
And please don't misunderstand my question - I recently had the same conversation with myself, and other then a few minor issues with ver.1 that have been fixed, I'm very happy with the desks at their pricepoint, and I very much love the MADI stagebox we picked up as well.
My only 'real' issue is the 2 parametric eq + 2 sweep eq per channel, with the freq conscious gate - I would have preferred a 4ch parametric and lost the freq part of the gate, but at the same time is has yet to cause me a problem - it's just in my head ;D
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Curious... As I own three of them, very much like them, and myself and my team have discovered that they're generally 'everything that we need, with little extra and little missing' - what are you comparing them to and what missing features bother you? In my mind, moving faders and recallable preamps are more then a minor improvement over a studiolive.
And please don't misunderstand my question - I recently had the same conversation with myself, and other then a few minor issues with ver.1 that have been fixed, I'm very happy with the desks at their pricepoint, and I very much love the MADI stagebox we picked up as well.
My only 'real' issue is the 2 parametric eq + 2 sweep eq per channel, with the freq conscious gate - I would have preferred a 4ch parametric and lost the freq part of the gate, but at the same time is has yet to cause me a problem - it's just in my head ;D
I feel exactly the same way.
I like my Si Compact better then the LS9.
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lacks a ton of features found on other mixers in it's price range and just left me wanting more. Too bad, I was excited about it going in.
I registered in this forum just to answer this (I've been reading for a long time, though).
Compared to the ls9 the compact feels dumb. I like a desk that lets me personalize it, that gives me a lot of options and that I can do what i want with it. I don't want to work the way the desk wants. Few examples?
-Stereo channels only on second layer. Really? enough to piss you off every time there's a backing track or something.
-Channel linking only starting from even number to odd. You can link 1 and 2 but not 2 and 3.
- graphic eq on the L&R together, not possible to separate L&R.
-not possible to send L to one matrix e R to another, that is what you would most commonly do, I think...
- only 2 sweep PEQ per channel
- no custom layer or custom buttons
- other things that I can't recall at the moment because I try to use it less that I can. If the Ls9 is not busy, I go for that one.
ah one more thing, effects returns only on second layer. Is it awkward enough for a digital desk?
It's got some drawbacks typical of the digital (ex: not all the pots available straight away) and some drawbacks of the analog (ex: inflexible).
I have to say I started mixing with digital desks, so I might be biased, but for me the more features the better.
Actually a think a GB4 would be better if for the onboard dynamics
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- graphic eq on the L&R together, not possible to separate L&R.
Since the Studio Live was mentioned, I would like to bring up the fact that it has the opposite problem. If you want to do a stereo mix with identical EQ you have to do the eq first on the L and then copy it to the R. Not very helpful on the fly when you're adjusting as you're hearing what you get. Although, I think having the LR eq permanently fixed together would be a bigger drawback.
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I worked with the Compact today again, and I found some more flaws: you can't in any way separate L and R out. To be more specific, I wanted to hear only the left PA for a minute: the only way to do it is by unplugging one of the xlr from the outputs. big shit.
Want to copy an eq setting between channels? you have to copy all then channel, even fader position. I really think that people that prefer the sicompact to the ls9 need to explain me very carefully what is better.
And I'll have to deal with that for the next 3 days in a row.
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some more?
the PEQ doesn't have 400hz freq. only 315 or 500. I find that awful. 400hz is always a pain.
And it's SLOWWWWWWWWWWW. selecting different channels to see the different settings, you have to stop for one or 2 second s to wait for all the lights to light up to see what's happening, the routing, etc. D'You know how many things happen in 2 seconds?
And the buttons are spongy, they don't click so yo never know if you pushed it right or not.
Do you want me to go on?
Probably tomorrow night I will, after smashing my head over it all day long.
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some more?
the PEQ doesn't have 400hz freq. only 315 or 500. I find that awful. 400hz is always a pain.
And it's SLOWWWWWWWWWWW. selecting different channels to see the different settings, you have to stop for one or 2 second s to wait for all the lights to light up to see what's happening, the routing, etc. D'You know how many things happen in 2 seconds?
And the buttons are spongy, they don't click so yo never know if you pushed it right or not.
Do you want me to go on?
Probably tomorrow night I will, after smashing my head over it all day long.
No, please don't. You're obviously a Yamaha/LS-9 fanboy but there's nothing wrong with that.
If you're so disappointed with the console, why not just return it and get your beloved LS-9??
Completely bashing a product that a lot of people have had really good luck with is getting us nowhere.
Pat
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Completely bashing a product that a lot of people have had really good luck with is getting us nowhere.
I disagree. I have not heard any criticism that sounds unreasonable or insults directed at anyone(like the term "fanboy" for example). As one considering the purchase of a digital board, I want to hear as many opinions as possible - good or bad!
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I disagree. I have not heard any criticism that sounds unreasonable or insults directed at anyone(like the term "fanboy" for example). As one considering the purchase of a digital board, I want to hear as many opinions as possible - good or bad!
I also appreciate the feedback. Among other things, having a more limited EQ on an $8000 board compared to a $2000 01v96 will keep me away from the Soundcraft.
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No, please don't. You're obviously a Yamaha/LS-9 fanboy but there's nothing wrong with that.
If you're so disappointed with the console, why not just return it and get your beloved LS-9??
Completely bashing a product that a lot of people have had really good luck with is getting us nowhere.
Pat
anybody can try and see if what I say is bashing or not.
The desk is not mine, but it belongs to the company I work for, so I use whatever they give me. We also have an ls9, that has got her limitations. But this is a thread on the compact so I didn't write anything about the ls9's limitations.
Gian
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some more?
the PEQ doesn't have 400hz freq. only 315 or 500. I find that awful. 400hz is always a pain.
And it's SLOWWWWWWWWWWW. selecting different channels to see the different settings, you have to stop for one or 2 second s to wait for all the lights to light up to see what's happening, the routing, etc. D'You know how many things happen in 2 seconds?
And the buttons are spongy, they don't click so yo never know if you pushed it right or not.
Do you want me to go on?
Probably tomorrow night I will, after smashing my head over it all day long.
Mine has 400hz. Are you looking at the display on the screen or just the knobs?
Spongy buttons? A display comes up every time you push a button or turn a knob.
You need to turn the encoder knobs a little slower. The faster you turn it the more frequencies you pass up.
2 seconds? Come on, I don't think so. Maybe a couple of ms.
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Hi,
I am new to this forum (although I have been reading it for some time).
I am thinking of buying a new digital desk and Si Compact is one of the candidates. Can anyone answer a few questions about this console?
1. What is the minimal frequency step (in Hertz or octave-related) of the parametric eq? I hope it is softer than LED indication.
2. Does anyone know, if (and when) the online editor will be implemented? This is real must for me, I need to be able to control the surface remotely with tablet or iPad or something simillar.
3. Many of the cons mentioned above would be propably software-related (stereo channels on layer B, impossibility to use stereo channels and effect returns at same time, maximum of 32 channels even external stagebox etc). Does anyone know about some software update, that would fix some of these issues?
I like Soundcraft mixers and really want to get one, but it seems I get more from the iLive system at the same price point, if there won't be some improvement of these things.
Thanks for your answers.
Tomas
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Mine has 400hz. Are you looking at the display on the screen or just the knobs?
Spongy buttons? A display comes up every time you push a button or turn a knob.
You need to turn the encoder knobs a little slower. The faster you turn it the more frequencies you pass up.
2 seconds? Come on, I don't think so. Maybe a couple of ms.
You're probably right about the 400hz, I don't check the eq graph usually. I just look at the knobs and listen. In the knobs 400 is not there, though.
I had to send some channels quickly to mono out. It took me a very long time. Every time you select a channel you have to wait for all the buttons to lit up and then you can press what you need. In some occasions few ms feel like hours! It's probably around 6-700ms, that is a LOT.
Do you want to know a good thing? You can patch the same input to different channels. So for the same mike you can have different eqs or effects ready in the next channel. That's good.
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I disagree. I have not heard any criticism that sounds unreasonable or insults directed at anyone(like the term "fanboy" for example). As one considering the purchase of a digital board, I want to hear as many opinions as possible - good or bad!
Throwing out the "fanboy" term was a bit misguided. Sorry about that, Gianfranco.
All jabs aside, I feel the console has it's place and really enjoy working with it. I've mixed many shows on LS-9's and enjoy working with those also. I've only mixed a couple of shows so far on the Compact but really like it's features.
Pat
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Gianfraco!! Welcome to the party! :-P Must be a bit slow in the conference today yeah?
I've used the compact pretty extensively, after doing a two week stint about a month back, and while it did the job, I had a few issues which bugged me!
In general, the speed of the console as far as getting round it was a bit frustrating. Not being able to have fx sends on the rotary encoders made this issue worse. I tended to jump around alot through the different layers to get from the inputs to the fx returns to the fx sends and so forth and I found that it couldn't keep up with me most of the time.
On the plus side, it does sound nice! As far as similar consoles, it's the nicest sounding in this range that I've come across!
Gian, some work arounds...
Matrix Outs, you can patch the main L&R to two outputs in the patch menu. This gives you two discrete left and right outputs, but no level or mix control for them.
You know if you hold the Mono assign button you can press the channel select button to quickly assign all the channels to the mono bus? Likewise with turning on all channel functions, HPF, EQ, +48V etc...
The LED display can be a little misleading at times with regard to what it shows and what the console is actually doing!
The soft patching is quite cool, but it can be done on the LS9 too! :-P
All up, I wasn't diss appointed with the console through my extended stint with it! It did what I asked of it day in and day out, it didn't crash, it sounded good!
It did have its limitations, as do all consoles, and alot of them are potentially a firmware update or two away from being fixed! In the end, it is what it is, and while it's not at all my preferred console of choice, (I'm very much Yamaha too!) it did the job, and so long as you don't go in expecting a Vi6 or an Si3, you'll be happy!
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Gianfraco!! Welcome to the party! :-P Must be a bit slow in the conference today yeah?
Gian, some work arounds...
Matrix Outs, you can patch the main L&R to two outputs in the patch menu. This gives you two discrete left and right outputs, but no level or mix control for them.
You know if you hold the Mono assign button you can press the channel select button to quickly assign all the channels to the mono bus? Likewise with turning on all channel functions, HPF, EQ, +48V etc...
I would't mind a coffee, bro!
I was just making an example about the mono, if you want to see what settings you have in every channel you have to push the Sel button and then wait for all the lights to turn on before pressing anything.
The workaround for the matrix would be quite a stretch, having no control at all.
Good to know about the soft patching in the Ls9. I can do it in the gb4 as well, you just have to move the xlr to the next channel 8)...
We should do a blind test one day between the Compact and Ls9, a couple of 112s with subs and same input. Who guess wrong pays the round.
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We should do a blind test one day between the Compact and Ls9, a couple of 112s with subs and same input. Who guess wrong pays the round.
Wouldn't say no to one either! :-P
That sounds cool though, I think I've got a day or two off over when you guys quiet down for Christmas, so we should totally do something of those sorts!
LS9, Compact, Si3, GB, and a Behringer, just for kicks!
Could even do a speaker shoot out at the same time!
Passive XT vs LA4 Biamp-d XT, vs 112p vs JBL
See what we can arrange!
As far as soft patching the GB4, do what we did in the good old days, XLR Wye splits! Or direct out into a line input of another channel!
Rock n Roll! Almost lunch time! :-D
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and the Verona, too... curious to know how she stands up to the Si3
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-Stereo channels only on second layer. Really? enough to piss you off every time there's a backing track or something.
Have you ever thought of using channels on main layer and linking them to make stereo channels?
I wouldn't even consider the ls9 or preson in the same league as the si. The sound quality alone makes toys out of the Yam and Preson.
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Have you ever thought of using channels on main layer and linking them to make stereo channels?
I wouldn't even consider the ls9 or preson in the same league as the si. The sound quality alone makes toys out of the Yam and Preson.
As I said before you can only link channels from odd to even, so it's a limitation. That doesn't make the desk useless, but is worth noting.
Yam Custom fader is much better.
We'll do the blind test after christmas and get back about it. At the moment i wouldn't call the yam a toy, as long as you keep it under the yellow leds.
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Have you ever thought of using channels on main layer and linking them to make stereo channels?
I wouldn't even consider the ls9 or preson in the same league as the si. The sound quality alone makes toys out of the Yam and Preson.
I'd really like to see the systems and rooms you guys play that the sound quality of a Yamaha mixer is a significant detriment to your gig. There must be an awful lot of stars aligned perfectly - band playing in time/tune/suck knob turned down, good acoustic treatment, enough power, amazing PA, etc.
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As I said before you can only link channels from odd to even, so it's a limitation. That doesn't make the desk useless, but is worth noting.
Yam Custom fader is much better.
We'll do the blind test after christmas and get back about it. At the moment i wouldn't call the yam a toy, as long as you keep it under the yellow leds.
For instance I use channels 29-30 as a stereo pair for my tracks keeping them on mian layer. Soundcraft is supposed to release a Ver2 software Dec. 1 that I would guess will address such issues as you mentioned.
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I'd really like to see the systems and rooms you guys play that the sound quality of a Yamaha mixer is a significant detriment to your gig. There must be an awful lot of stars aligned perfectly - band playing in time/tune/suck knob turned down, good acoustic treatment, enough power, amazing PA, etc.
I wouldn't say they are a detriment but just average. The Si Compact is a very noticeable step up in sound quality when compared to the Preson or ls9.
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I just got a chance to demo a si compact. I was pretty disappointed. It could be a great mixer but when you consider the price, I believe it missed the mark. I felt like it was only slighty better than a studiolive. If it is it is only due to recallable preamps, moving faders and glowing fader colors. Other than that it feels cheap, lacks a ton of features found on other mixers in it's price range and just left me wanting more. Too bad, I was excited about it going in.
I should check back to things that I post more often. I personally have used and owned a o1v, o1v96, studiolive 16.4.2 2 ls9's a 32 and a 16 and most recently an ilive idr32 with r72 control surface. After owning the ls9 I simply got board and wanted to try something else. I was excited to try out the si compact but was disappointed by the lack of flexibility. I like my digital boards to have the ability to split the input to multiple layers, set up custom layers and have the returns on the main layer. For me the lack of these features on a mixer in this price range was very disappointing. In addition the lack of a full parametric eq on all bands seems odd. The build quality on the new mixer that I demo'd was poor. 8 of the faders were bent! On a new mixer! I was the first to one the box. I also thought it felt more like a $500 control surface that a $5000+ mixer. I will say that it sounded good. Not light years better than anything else I've tried but it sounded good. It is also very simple to walk up to and mix on. I like the led lighting on the faders etc. I think if the 16 channel was priced at $3k I'd own one but fr the price vs features I'll take an ls9 any day. The great thing is that we have options. Keep them coming. Just my 2 cents.
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New V2 software due anyday
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New V2 software due anyday
Where are you hearing the news about the V2 software? I feel like I never heard soundcraft news....
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Where are you hearing the news about the V2 software? I feel like I never heard soundcraft news....
Hahah Their Facebook page Here is what else they say:
Features currently enabled in beta release:
• DOGS Gain tracking
• Selective Copy & Paste
• Security lockout
• Assignable fader layers
• Snapshot control via MIDI in and MIDI out
• Ability to send Left, Right and Mono separately to each matrix bus
• Console can be word clock slave or master
• Global Isolate of individual buses
• Patching of stereo inputs to any channel
The production release of V2 has been slated to provide the following:
• Showing HPF setting on EQ screen
• Delay displayed in meters feet and ms and filter width in Q and octaves
• Support for forthcoming ViSi iPad on-line control
• Support for CobraNet® and Aviom®
• Minimum 25% speed improvement on all processes
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Haha... well played sir
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Hahah Their Facebook page Here is what else they say:
Features currently enabled in beta release:
• DOGS Gain tracking
• Selective Copy & Paste
• Security lockout
• Assignable fader layers
• Snapshot control via MIDI in and MIDI out
• Ability to send Left, Right and Mono separately to each matrix bus
• Console can be word clock slave or master
• Global Isolate of individual buses
• Patching of stereo inputs to any channel
The production release of V2 has been slated to provide the following:
• Showing HPF setting on EQ screen
• Delay displayed in meters feet and ms and filter width in Q and octaves
• Support for forthcoming ViSi iPad on-line control
• Support for CobraNet® and Aviom®
• Minimum 25% speed improvement on all processes
seen the improvements they are trying to make (the beta looks good, the official release not enough), seems like my critics were not wrong in the end...
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Hahah Their Facebook page Here is what else they say:
Features currently enabled in beta release:
• DOGS Gain tracking
• Selective Copy & Paste
• Security lockout
• Assignable fader layers
• Snapshot control via MIDI in and MIDI out
• Ability to send Left, Right and Mono separately to each matrix bus
• Console can be word clock slave or master
• Global Isolate of individual buses
• Patching of stereo inputs to any channel
The production release of V2 has been slated to provide the following:
• Showing HPF setting on EQ screen
• Delay displayed in meters feet and ms and filter width in Q and octaves
• Support for forthcoming ViSi iPad on-line control
• Support for CobraNet® and Aviom®
• Minimum 25% speed improvement on all processes
Something else that would be nice is to have the ability to set up any of the 14 aux busses on mute groups.
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I really think that people that prefer the sicompact to the ls9 need to explain me very carefully what is better.
Some people prefer a simplified operating experience. It's especially true if you have guests that you must "teach" the console in 5 minutes or less.
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LS9 can be a bitch to get around really quick even if you know it pretty well for certain tasks. Phantom power, getting to compressor attack and release controls, things I use a lot need for one offs to be navigated to on a little screen. Turning Q knob to the left turns the Q up, but using the big encoder RIGHT next turning it left turns it down. Layer / fader / menu system has me in the habit of clinging to the home button annoyingly. Setting up mute groups and tap delay is annoying if you are starting from zero in a run off. "flex 15" graphic EQs are often fine but sometimes not, and its then when you care. Compressor is hardly transparent, preamps are a little cold and harsh. Output cards are 16 i/o so you need 2 anything to get 32 ch for Dante or something. The gain knob is positioned right by the top edge of a protruding screen, and I've known more than one person to lob it right off putting a road case back on. I think every engineer who I've walked through this console for the first time has repeatedly gotten confused about the ambiguously color coded toggles for various bypasses and such.
I do really like the LS9, despite all of this. Especially for touring acts, the customization abilities like the UDK and the custom fader layer are huge and speed problems for accessing certain controls are less irrelevant. But, I think for guys doing lots of one offs, different acts and etc there are plenty of downsides to it. The SI gives you tons of controls with their own encoders right on the surface so access to attack, release and phantom power are super quick. Encoders above channels let you manage HAgains / hpf / and pan super fast, great for one offs or time pressured circumstances. No arrowing around looking for something on a tiny, low res (!!!!!!) screen. "toggle" style fader / layer system eliminates the leash to the home button. Fader glow sounds stupid, but especially if a variety of skill level users will be op'ing the console it really helps those "where am I?" moments. Full graphic EQs on every output!
All in all, one console does not fit all, but IMO the SI compact is a better fit for some users than the LS9.
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Something else that would be nice is to have the ability to set up any of the 14 aux busses on mute groups.
I just figured out that you can mute the buses. Go to the bus master, press mute setup, then select each bus you wish to mute, select the mute group 1-4, then press mute setup again. Done. Now I can have open mics with no wedges.