Post by: (Brian) Frost on May 26, 2006, 01:23:38 PM
Post by: Dan Brown on May 26, 2006, 01:53:22 PM
I think you may be picking at a little point. get some 8ch. ADAT preamps and call it good.
sincerely,
db
[edit - spelling]
Post by: Ken Freeman on May 26, 2006, 02:29:13 PM
Ken
Post by: (Brian) Frost on May 27, 2006, 02:13:21 AM
I have big boards where I need them, Im looking for a digital 1604 with enough I/O built in.
Post by: Clarke LaPlante on May 27, 2006, 03:10:40 AM
| (Brian) Frost wrote on Sat, 27 May 2006 02:13 |
The o1v feels like a kluge solution to get the number of inputs and outputs that even a mix wizard has. I think I woud be pissed when the digital mix wiz or tt16 or the better yamaha solution comes out. The dm1k doesnt exactly fit into the top of a rack. I have big boards where I need them, Im looking for a digital 1604 with enough I/O built in. |
I agree. However, I remember when the 1604 only had 8 XLRs inputs. The other eight were on separate box that you connected with a ribbon cable.
Give it a bit of time.
-Clarke
Post by: Ken Freeman on May 27, 2006, 03:17:47 AM
| (Brian) Frost wrote on Fri, 26 May 2006 23:13 |
The o1v feels like a kluge solution to get the number of inputs and outputs that even a mix wizard has. I think I woud be pissed when the digital mix wiz or tt16 or the better yamaha solution comes out. The dm1k doesnt exactly fit into the top of a rack. I have big boards where I need them, Im looking for a digital 1604 with enough I/O built in. |
So Brian, what are you after?
A price point, a feature set, a size limit or?
Ken
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on May 27, 2006, 06:56:34 AM
http://www.tascam.com/Products/dm3200.html
I run a Yamaha 01V96 and like it allot but the above does look close to what you are looking for. Add a card for more aux sends. Around 3 grand. Although it won't fit in a rack. Still close.
Douglas R. Allen
Post by: Douglas Johnson on May 27, 2006, 09:22:46 AM
Do you really need 16 mic pre's? With the line level inputs the 01v96 is a 16 channel board. Normally with my 1604 at least two or three inputs were used for CD/tape and effects. Any thing over 12 or 13 stage inputs usually gots bumped up to 20 or 24 channels.
One "work around" with the 01v96 would be to add four channels of wireless, input into the four line level channels, 16 mic inputs.
If are going to mount it in a rack, adding an 8 in/out external digital pre should really be a non-issue as everything can remain connected. With 20 mic inputs, 4 line inputs, 14 outputs, etc. its hard to beat, even if someone added 4 more onboard pres.
doug j.
Post by: Kent Clasen on May 27, 2006, 09:40:54 AM
| doug johnson wrote on Sat, 27 May 2006 14:22 |
Brian, With 20 mic inputs, 4 line inputs, 14 outputs, etc. its hard to beat, even if someone added 4 more onboard pres. doug j. |
I agree, there is nothing kluge about it, it is called expandable/scaleable. It can control up to 32 inputs, they just give you 16 to start with. All of the above for about $2500! Plus the rack mount kit
8 auxes, mute groups, 8 busses, 4 band eq and compressor on all ins/outs, 2 stereo efx...BTW don't alot of other surfaces use external preamp boxes...?!
Post by: Mac Kerr on May 27, 2006, 10:41:28 AM
| (Brian) Frost wrote on Sat, 27 May 2006 02:13 |
The o1v feels like a kluge solution to get the number of inputs and outputs that even a mix wizard has. I think I woud be pissed when the digital mix wiz or tt16 or the better yamaha solution comes out. The dm1k doesnt exactly fit into the top of a rack. |
| (Brian) Frost wrote on Sat, 27 May 2006 02:13 |
I have big boards where I need them, Im looking for a digital 1604 with enough I/O built in. |
Mac
Post by: Rich Mullen on May 27, 2006, 12:24:23 PM
Thanks for shaking the dust loose in my brain.
FWIW
My 1st 'console' was called a Trooper II. It had a master section with maybe 8 channels and we had the extension module with a ribbon cable connect to add another 8 channels (I think!). It was 3-4 times the size of a 1604 and had 2 aux and no sub groups (if I remember right). EQ was horrible almost non-exsitent. I think it had a spring reverb though!
I can't remember it too well, because in reference to Bonnie Lackey's post - I TOSSED IT!
Post by: Jason Dermer on May 27, 2006, 12:26:25 PM
Back to the subject at hand, build the following digital console and you'll have THE solution for every bar/small club/small PA company/basic corporate job out there.
Street price of $2500.00 to $3000.00
rack sized
16mono+2 stereo inputs, all with 4 band, 2 swept mids eq, high pass, polarity inversion, and direct outs (digital direct out with lightpipe or similar option?)
2 fx engines assigned to their own returns (with eq), not the 2 stereo inputs
8 assignable graphs and/or peq
8 assignable dynamics
routing options similar to the Mixwiz or an Onyx
sound quality on par with at least entry level or better pro gear, ie, the above consoles, DBX 10 series comps and gates, DBX 22 series eq, TC M1/D2 FX
Am I dreaming?
Post by: Dave Dermont on May 27, 2006, 12:27:24 PM
World peace would be cool too.
The evolution of digital mixers, especially the Yamaha digital mixers, seems to be going well. I am sure they spend a lot of time thinking about what customers want, and delivering it at the right price.
As of right now, the 01v - DM1000 - M7 seem like logical steps, especially with the ability to expand and customize the models lower in the line.
Products like the TT24 and M7 are filling in the once barren middle ground od digital mixers.
I think you will eventually get what you (we?) want. The question is when.
Post by: Mac Kerr on May 27, 2006, 12:51:11 PM
| Jason Dermer wrote on Sat, 27 May 2006 12:26 |
That was the CR1604- I still have mine, and it's still a great little workhorse for a multitude of situations. But it came with 6 mic pres, not 8. The add on is gies you pres for the other 10 channels, but no inserts. Back to the subject at hand, build the following digital console and you'll have THE solution for every bar/small club/small PA company/basic corporate job out there. Street price of $2500.00 to $3000.00 rack sized 16mono+2 stereo inputs, all with 4 band, 2 swept mids eq, high pass, polarity inversion, and direct outs (digital direct out with lightpipe or similar option?) 2 fx engines assigned to their own returns (with eq), not the 2 stereo inputs 8 assignable graphs and/or peq 8 assignable dynamics routing options similar to the Mixwiz or an Onyx sound quality on par with at least entry level or better pro gear, ie, the above consoles, DBX 10 series comps and gates, DBX 22 series eq, TC M1/D2 FX Am I dreaming? |
Mac
Post by: Ken Freeman on May 27, 2006, 12:53:57 PM
Please study your analog solution: The console, the dynamics, the DSP FX engines, the EQ that you had to insert, all the multi-cables to hook it up, the cases, the wheels skids on the cases and then the time to connect it all. Oh and the milkcrate full power strips, extension cords, the 6 foot table to set it all on and the 6 seats in the audience you had to kill....Do you recall what all that cost?
Now weigh that against the small format digital mixer and the iPod or CD player. Does it take any longer to wade through the "kluge" of O1v's menus that it took you to hook all that stuff up? I think not. This meets your price objective. Are there other alternatives: Yes.
Need to step it up to a higher level of functionality? DM-1000: I/O added as you need it, if you need it, when you need it. Afraid of Yamaha? TT24 for a few more bucks gets you a few more inputs. Not my first choice, but it is an option.
So, Come back with 5 Grand and you can get this moving with a product that can do a lot more than your analog solution ever could in half the time with 75% less gear.
Or, wait 3 more years for the next generation.
Ken
Post by: Mike Slay on May 27, 2006, 01:59:23 PM
Post by: Jason Dermer on May 27, 2006, 02:07:24 PM
| Mac Kerr wrote on Sat, 27 May 2006 12:51 |
What is there in your description that is not available on an 01v96 plus an ADA8000? You don't seem to mind the add on pres as you praise the CR1604. The nearest thing to a miss is the 8 assignable graphic eqs, but you also suggest parametric eq. Since there is a fully parametric eq on every input channel, group, aux, and stereo, you have 18 fixed placement instead of 8 assignable. What fabulous routing options are available on the MixWiz and Onyx that you can't do on an 01v? Does either of them have 14 assignable balanced output connections? Instead of the input eq with 2 swept mids you'll have to survive with 4 band fully parametric. Instead of 8 assignable dynamics processors you'll have to learn to get by with dynamics on everything. Oh yeah, and built in delay on all outputs. Although you will only have 20 mic pres, you will have 32 mono control channels, so you can softpatch to other inputs for mons. All for under $2500. I am not a huge fan of the 01v96, as I can get DM1000s when I need a small board, but it is the best thing in its class. Mac |
I'm not praising the 1604, I pointed out an error in a previous post and mentioned that I still use it to this day.
That said, I have not used an 01V, nor an M7 or TT24, so perhaps I should have studied their features a bit more before posting. I have toured a D5 and a DM2000 and attended 1D/5D training, so I am not digitally challenged, either. But the gist of my post remains call for an affordable, all in one, compact digital package that can, with very little user training, do what every small setup out there does, better and more efficiently. Hell, while we're at it, put the (remote)pres and a/d conversion at the stage box, put an 8-10 in 16-24 out processor onboard as well, make the outs all digital, then give me some amps with digital in. One a/d and one d/a conversion from start to finish(minimal latency). One Cat-5 or similar cable and a single Edison to FOH. True plug and play for the masses.
Post by: Jason Dermer on May 27, 2006, 02:19:40 PM
Post by: (Brian) Frost on May 27, 2006, 02:34:44 PM
What Im saying here is that I hated using the 1604cr. A 1604 vlz from 10 years ago is just fine for that size gig tho. There have been several new incarnations of the 1604, all of which have had small improvements but nothing that is really necessary to upgrade from an older vlz. I would hate to use a cr again tho. I am amazed at how much I can do with just an o1v96 and the more I look at it the more it just might suit my needs. I like the idea of 4 channels of wireless going into the line inputs. I might have to play around with this idea some more, I just dont want to own a mackie cr.
Post by: Douglas Johnson on May 27, 2006, 03:55:33 PM
doug j.
Post by: Rob Spence on May 27, 2006, 04:17:48 PM
I would also like to have all 16 mic preamps on the board so I don't have to split the fan at the mix position to hook it up. I don't have the 01v96 but the DDX3216 and can't reassign individual inputs so I get 1-12 on the first bank and 17-24 on second bank but can't get 1-16 in a row without using analog preamps into the line in 13-16.
Unless you rack thr ADA8000 below the desk and do a loom and multis, you have a cable kluge to wire up that is easly as messy as the traditional Mixwiz and a fx rack. Plus you have all these delicate fiber connects that some helpful sole will break off for you during strike.
Post by: (Brian) Frost on May 28, 2006, 03:30:31 AM
Frost
Also, O2r doesnt fit in a rack
Post by: Chris Cowley on May 28, 2006, 04:03:02 AM
Post by: Joe Breher on May 29, 2006, 02:52:21 PM
| Chris Cowley wrote on Sun, 28 May 2006 02:03 |
I think this is fairly similar to the ROland VM7000 series - no-one bought it though |
Well, I did. I bought my first VM-72 system when Roalnd introduced firesale prices. Bought a second about 8 months ago. I think the system still stacks up pretty nicely against current offerings such as a 02R, DM2000, TT24, etc. The two systems can be combined into a system that gives me both monitor beach and FOH consoles over 40 mic pres, another 6 analog ins, and 48 digital ins, with a nice light digital snake. And 48 digital outs to feed a multitrack right off the mic pres.
More info on it here:
http://q-music.com/html/roland_vm.html
Post by: Dan Brown on May 29, 2006, 11:11:02 PM
| Joe Breher wrote on Mon, 29 May 2006 13:52 | ||
Well, I did. I bought my first VM-72 system when Roalnd introduced firesale prices. Bought a second about 8 months ago. I think the system still stacks up pretty nicely against current offerings such as a 02R, DM2000, TT24, etc. The two systems can be combined into a system that gives me both monitor beach and FOH consoles over 40 mic pres, another 6 analog ins, and 48 digital ins, with a nice light digital snake. And 48 digital outs to feed a multitrack right off the mic pres. More info on it here: http://q-music.com/html/roland_vm.html |
Joe and Chris
The fact that you can't have more than one comp OR gate OR limit OR etc. at once on a channel just sucks. Not only that but your eq is sacrificed by 1 less band if you decide to use any dynamics processing.
I have been forced to use one for a event. I had to learn everything by myself because the house person was upset because they were not going to mix for the artist! So anyway I had to learn the desk by myself. It sucks to get around and really didn't sound all that great to me. There is no way to insert at the desk if you are running the digital cables back to the brain, which in this case was on the stage.
IMO, the Roland suggestion is not one that others can use easily. If you are used to it fine but otherwise it sucks. Also the fact that you cannot have full dynamics and eq all at once basically makes it worthless to me.
sincerely,
db
Post by: Chris Cowley on May 30, 2006, 09:46:11 AM
| Dan Brown wrote on Tue, 30 May 2006 04:11 | ||||
Joe and Chris The fact that you can't have more than one comp OR gate OR limit OR etc. at once on a channel just sucks. Not only that but your eq is sacrificed by 1 less band if you decide to use any dynamics processing. I have been forced to use one for a event. I had to learn everything by myself because the house person was upset because they were not going to mix for the artist! So anyway I had to learn the desk by myself. It sucks to get around and really didn't sound all that great to me. There is no way to insert at the desk if you are running the digital cables back to the brain, which in this case was on the stage. IMO, the Roland suggestion is not one that others can use easily. If you are used to it fine but otherwise it sucks. Also the fact that you cannot have full dynamics and eq all at once basically makes it worthless to me. sincerely, db |
I have only used it once - I do not own it, a friend of mine bought one. Now you mention it then yes there were significant problems with it, but it was generally a nice idea though - especially the tiny litle snake, and it was very expandable. I wonder if Roland were to build a new version with updated DSP then maybe it would be exactly what the OP wants.
Post by: Joe Breher on May 30, 2006, 09:27:27 PM
| Dan Brown wrote on Mon, 29 May 2006 21:11 |
The fact that you can't have more than one comp OR gate OR limit OR etc. at once on a channel just sucks. Not only that but your eq is sacrificed by 1 less band if you decide to use any dynamics processing. |
Well yes, the board (as any) has its limitiaitons. However, your post seems to indicate an incomplete understanding of the system. There are several ways to get multiple dynamics processors on any channel. The tradeoff of 1 comp or gate per one band of eq is that using only the per-channel facilites.
Alternatively, you can also insert one of the up to 8(16) stereo or 16(32) mono general purpose FX onto whatever channel you desire. Several of the FX algorithms include full featured dynamics processors.
Frankly, I see the M7CL's apparent omission of per-channel delay* a more serious omission, but strokes for folks...
*only my inference from the published block diagram - I haven't driven it yet.
Suppose you want 16 different reverbs (!), so you don't want to use the multi-FX for dynamics processors. You could also route the channel out the digital IO, and wrap it back into the digital IO. Now you've doubled the resources assgined to each signal, by running it through a series of two channel strips. Gives you a comp and a gate and full eq on that signal. A bit convoluted, but it works, as long as you keep the latency tradeoffs in mind.
Point reduces to the fact that there are multiple ways of getting both expander/gate and comp/limiter on a signal, without giving up any of the eq resources.
Sure, it ain't a panacea (is anything?) I however stand by my statement that it still stacks up quite nicely against many of the current offerings of 'affordable' digital desks.
Post by: Joe Breher on May 30, 2006, 09:52:59 PM
| Dan Brown wrote on Mon, 29 May 2006 21:11 |
I had to learn everything by myself ... So anyway I had to learn the desk by myself. It sucks to get around ... |
Well, that's a sad state. Always sucks when the house guy gets snippy, eh? But really, is there any digital board that you can throw someone onto without any prior study, and expect him to have a seamless transition?
I'm gonna guess that the system you were thrown upon did not include the VE-7000 Channel Edit Controller, which provides a dedicated knob for each of the most-used parameters of the currently selected channel, no? This admittedly extra-cost option makes a real difference in the system's ergonomics.
| Dan Brown wrote on Mon, 29 May 2006 21:11 |
There is no way to insert at the desk if you are running the digital cables back to the brain, which in this case was on the stage. |
That's a system setup issue, not an inherent flaw of the board. This limitation is shared with other boards that split the control surface and the mix engine. If the mix engine is on stage, that's where the IO is. That's what buys you the convinence of a 10 pound 200' 'snake'. If you feel you need an 1176 on something, and you need to twist the knobs of it on the fly, you'll need to get the line level send/return from/to the insert jack on stage to the mix position. Perhpas a small drive snake or something. Alternatively, you can put the 4U mix engine at FOH. The tradeoff is that you're back to a standard heavy analog multicore. You payz yer money and makez yer choice.
Post by: Dan Brown on May 30, 2006, 11:56:06 PM
You obviously like the Roland system and I am not going to change your mind on that. The digital snake thing is very nice. I however would like to have full dynamics on every channel and at least a 4 band sweepable EQ.
I was only trying to point out the limitations that I saw in the roland unit. The insert solution of running a snake is not a good one as the inserts are unbalanced. As far as a analog snake that would be the way but was not available or going to be used for me.
sincerely,
db
Post by: Jason Ellis on May 31, 2006, 09:44:04 AM
Post by: Petri Mäntysalo on June 05, 2006, 09:08:29 AM
Post by: Jack Trifiro on June 13, 2006, 07:58:38 PM
All the bells and whistles- channel controller, 2 processor's cascaded (40 mic pre's), 3 fx cards, and a 200' digi cable if I ever have to use it at foh...
Altho my ME bitches about it (its not a 5D yadda yadda), its a great little system. With 6 sets of Sennheiser units, total cost of under $15K, allows me to do a gig without soundchecks, if I have to...
my .02
peace
Post by: Peter Verkerk on June 17, 2006, 07:59:00 AM
| Jack Trifiro wrote on Wed, 14 June 2006 00:58 |
I own/use the Roland VM7200 system for IEM for my band... All the bells and whistles- channel controller, 2 processor's cascaded (40 mic pre's), 3 fx cards, and a 200' digi cable if I ever have to use it at foh... Altho my ME bitches about it (its not a 5D yadda yadda), its a great little system. With 6 sets of Sennheiser units, total cost of under $15K, allows me to do a gig without soundchecks, if I have to... my .02 peace |
Is this 7200 fast enough for you in the response time to run a live-show ?
We find the roland digi system not very handy to do a foh mix in the reaction time of his faders and buttons, in compare with other 's like tascam or yammie.
greetings,
Peet
Post by: Jack Trifiro on June 17, 2006, 01:28:28 PM
Was introduced to it by Zach Newton (Flecktones), bought one for my band (AOD) for in-ears, and now use one for FOH and Monitors for Victor Wooten...
Learning curve wasnt so bad... couple of days. Now its easy to get around on, and works well at both positions.
I also have an iso split snake, for AOD (using the VM7200 just for ears)...makes for easy interfacing with fests/houses.
we are pretty self contained-mic package, stands, cables, subsnakes...
Just hand tails to the system tech to patch in foh and we're good to go...
peace