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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Mike Holtzinger on July 07, 2018, 03:02:03 PM
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So I've been searching and lurking as I'm looking to upgrade my Bar band system slowly. I'm currently running JBL MP415's over QSC HPR151i's. I'm powering the Mpro's with a Crown XLS2500 and overall, it sounds pretty good, but we're a 2 guitar classic rock band that gets pretty loud and I'm right on the edge of losing clarity in the mid to high range. I need more headroom.
Of course, my system isn't ideally matched, but it actually sounds pretty good. Over the years, I've come to realise that I don't need as much low end as I thought I did and used to use. My old system had SR 4719 double 18" subs and now, I'm doing the same gigs with the HPR151's ( :o).
So my plan is to slowly upgrade the system starting with powered tops so I can lose the amp.
I want more clean headroom in the mids than I'm currently getting. Problem is I've found that there are a million opinions on speakers and no real solid evidence that QSCvsJBLvsEVvsRCFetc...any one is better than the other. Everybody has favorites or boxes that they're comfortable with.
The specs on my JBL MPro are 57hz-20k (I'm HPF'd at 80 on the amp)- 99dB sensitivity and a max SPL of 130dB...not bad?
So if I use this as the benchmark that I need to exceed then is there anything in the Mid price range that's going to do this?
Another reason for wanting to change mains is size. The MP415's aren't small or light and as I can haul everything including my guitar rig in my SUV, every inch counts so a smaller box is a real consideration!
In summary, I'm looking for a smaller powered 12" top that will outperform the MP415. What are the contenders?
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Q
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Yamaha DXR 10 or 12 or DSR 112.
IMO, nicer mids than QSC. Vocals very clear.
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Qsc K12.2 may be way to loud for your use, but a fantastic piece of equipment. It could be out of your price range aswell. However, definitely for your requirements a QSC K12.2 would be great.
Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk
Is this a joke. The K12.2 can't keep up with what he has now.
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My DSR112's remain clean when I push them hard. I am not sure how loud they can get, (all SPL specs are BS,) but I've done lots of loud rock bands in bars and don't ever recall wanting to "back it off" because it sounded ugly.
FYI, Yamaha has a new line coming out soon and maybe the DSR's will drop in price. (Current street price is around $750 US.)
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Well..... In my experience, you have a PA that should do fine for Bar type scenario's. Venture outside and you will not be as happy unless you only care about getting sound out to about 25'. I will attempt to break it down for you.
130db peak means at best and only perhaps for a few seconds. The amp you have will produce roughly 440 watts at 8 ohms. Your speaker is rated for 350 watts RMS, 700 watts program and 1400 watts peak. You are for all intents and purposes powering the speaker at the RMS rating. This means you can only achieve a theoretical peak SPL of about 124-125db when the amp is clipping. This is again an at best number. In reality you may only actually be able to achieve a real world SPL of about 115db. This SPL is factored at 3.28' ( 1 meter ) and does not consider inverse square law losses. So at 6.5' ( 2 meters ) you will loose another 6db and at 13' ( 4 meters ) you will loose yet another 6db and at 26' a total loss of 18db, putting you at around 97db at 26' away from the speakers. You would loose another 6db getting out to around 50'.
The typical rock band sets around 110db - 100db at typical listening distances of stage front to around 25' away. So you need a PA that can at least beat those numbers. Yours is right there and should just do the task. Keep in mind that 3db is minute and will not make or break the gig. Also when indoors ( such as at a bar ) the energy from the PA doesn't follow the inverse square law as much. You retain some energy due to reflections and of course boundary loading. Set a speaker next to a wall and you pretty much gain 3db from everything 250hz and below. You would likely find more use from your current PA if it was for vocal only support. That will help free up headroom and help optimize its functionality for beating the rest of the band.
My general rule is that any speaker capable of 135db peak SPL should be loud enough to do just about any gig you can put it on. Following the math from above, if you are actually capable of acquiring 135db, you would need to reduce that output by -16db to come to a real world capable SPL. This would put you at roughly 120db at 3.28' ( again 1 meter ). This means that by the time you get to 50' away from the PA you would have lost 24db to the inverse square law and would be left with about a 96db real world SPL. Now of that 16db we initially took away, 6db of that is factored for safety and headroom. This means that you could have up to another 3-6db more in potential output. In essence, you should be able to acquire roughly 100db at a distance of around 50'. This is pretty loud and I would say loud enough to do most of the gigs that we are commissioned to do where a PA on sticks is deployed. Keep in mind that the inverse square law begins to help as we get further away. At 100' for instance, we should still be able to acquire roughly 90db. This is loud enough to be over the typical conversation level.
That being said, this makes just about any modern self powered speaker in the $700 range a viable option. Almost all major manufacturers are offering up models at that price point that boast those numbers. There is a caveat to that. Those numbers are created by using very particular test criterion that make the numbers less than truthful. It is only simply a performance indicator. This is why we subtract 16db away from it. The real world output is what we care about. Most any powered speaker ( or passive ) that is stated as producing 135db or more should be adequate for most any situation.
Which one is the best option? I like JBL, EV and RCF pretty much in that order. QSC is fine too, but not my go to choice. The JBL PRX and especially the SRX line is a serious speaker. The EV offerings all perform well and have the benefit of being a little more affordable. RCF is pricier, but performs really well and sounds great. The magic number seems to be $700 though. Any speaker that costs that much and states a peak SPL of 135db will perform really well for you. The sound quality gap starts to shrink at that point too. Any speaker at or above that price point sounds pretty darn good. Good enough that you can make them work. I think the QSC offerings are the worst sounding of the bunch, but others love it.
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I’d be in the QSC camp. Been running K10’s and 12’s and 181 subs for ages never had a failure. Added a set of 153’s. Tried PRX 612’s and they were a complete disaster for me.
I have a ‘house curve’ that sounds fine to my ear. It is not as good as my Renkus/EAW rig but those rigs have remarkably different levels of investment and intended use...
If you run the QSC’s into the limiters they get harsh but... frankly if you are running them that hard it is an indication that you are probably running over expectations... this is why A, B and C rigs exist...
To me the reliability aspect is a huge part of ROI. QSc has it in spades and will stand behind it for 6 years. Says something of the design and probably the aggressive limiter...
I will say, the only time I ran into the limiters was with 4 in horizontal splay (not their best use) doing FOH for an AC/DC tribute band. Should have had the A rig for that one but the budget said no crew. The QSC can be a 1 guy lug and lift. My A rig is not...
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I'm currently running JBL MP415's over QSC HPR151i's. I'm powering the Mpro's with a Crown XLS2500 and overall, it sounds pretty good, but we're a 2 guitar classic rock band that gets pretty loud and I'm right on the edge of losing clarity in the mid to high range. I need more headroom.
You want mains with a larger Comp driver, coming from the SR series I bet that is what you are missing. The Yamaha DSR has the largest comp of all the offereings in that price bracket, I think that along with some excellent processing delivers the results they known for around here. Other options that may best that performance would be the SRX8XX powered poxes or maybe the RCF 7XX series both of which have 2" exit comps.
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Well..... In my experience, you have a PA that should do fine for Bar type scenario's. Venture outside and you will not be as happy unless you only care about getting sound out to about 25'. I will attempt to break it down for you.
130db peak means at best and only perhaps for a few seconds. The amp you have will produce roughly 440 watts at 8 ohms. Your speaker is rated for 350 watts RMS, 700 watts program and 1400 watts peak. You are for all intents and purposes powering the speaker at the RMS rating. This means you can only achieve a theoretical peak SPL of about 124-125db when the amp is clipping. This is again an at best number. In reality you may only actually be able to achieve a real world SPL of about 115db. This SPL is factored at 3.28' ( 1 meter ) and does not consider inverse square law losses. So at 6.5' ( 2 meters ) you will loose another 6db and at 13' ( 4 meters ) you will loose yet another 6db and at 26' a total loss of 18db, putting you at around 97db at 26' away from the speakers. You would loose another 6db getting out to around 50'.
The typical rock band sets around 110db - 100db at typical listening distances of stage front to around 25' away. So you need a PA that can at least beat those numbers. Yours is right there and should just do the task. Keep in mind that 3db is minute and will not make or break the gig. Also when indoors ( such as at a bar ) the energy from the PA doesn't follow the inverse square law as much. You retain some energy due to reflections and of course boundary loading. Set a speaker next to a wall and you pretty much gain 3db from everything 250hz and below. You would likely find more use from your current PA if it was for vocal only support. That will help free up headroom and help optimize its functionality for beating the rest of the band.
My general rule is that any speaker capable of 135db peak SPL should be loud enough to do just about any gig you can put it on. Following the math from above, if you are actually capable of acquiring 135db, you would need to reduce that output by -16db to come to a real world capable SPL. This would put you at roughly 120db at 3.28' ( again 1 meter ). This means that by the time you get to 50' away from the PA you would have lost 24db to the inverse square law and would be left with about a 96db real world SPL. Now of that 16db we initially took away, 6db of that is factored for safety and headroom. This means that you could have up to another 3-6db more in potential output. In essence, you should be able to acquire roughly 100db at a distance of around 50'. This is pretty loud and I would say loud enough to do most of the gigs that we are commissioned to do where a PA on sticks is deployed. Keep in mind that the inverse square law begins to help as we get further away. At 100' for instance, we should still be able to acquire roughly 90db. This is loud enough to be over the typical conversation level.
That being said, this makes just about any modern self powered speaker in the $700 range a viable option. Almost all major manufacturers are offering up models at that price point that boast those numbers. There is a caveat to that. Those numbers are created by using very particular test criterion that make the numbers less than truthful. It is only simply a performance indicator. This is why we subtract 16db away from it. The real world output is what we care about. Most any powered speaker ( or passive ) that is stated as producing 135db or more should be adequate for most any situation.
Which one is the best option? I like JBL, EV and RCF pretty much in that order. QSC is fine too, but not my go to choice. The JBL PRX and especially the SRX line is a serious speaker. The EV offerings all perform well and have the benefit of being a little more affordable. RCF is pricier, but performs really well and sounds great. The magic number seems to be $700 though. Any speaker that costs that much and states a peak SPL of 135db will perform really well for you. The sound quality gap starts to shrink at that point too. Any speaker at or above that price point sounds pretty darn good. Good enough that you can make them work. I think the QSC offerings are the worst sounding of the bunch, but others love it.
Great info and super helpful post for those of us with less technical knowledge.
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I’d be in the QSC camp. Been running K10’s and 12’s and 181 subs for ages never had a failure. Added a set of 153’s. Tried PRX 612’s and they were a complete disaster for me.
I have a ‘house curve’ that sounds fine to my ear. It is not as good as my Renkus/EAW rig but those rigs have remarkably different levels of investment and intended use...
If you run the QSC’s into the limiters they get harsh but... frankly if you are running them that hard it is an indication that you are probably running over expectations... this is why A, B and C rigs exist...
To me the reliability aspect is a huge part of ROI. QSc has it in spades and will stand behind it for 6 years. Says something of the design and probably the aggressive limiter...
I will say, the only time I ran into the limiters was with 4 in horizontal splay (not their best use) doing FOH for an AC/DC tribute band. Should have had the A rig for that one but the budget said no crew. The QSC can be a 1 guy lug and lift. My A rig is not...
THe Kx.2 is an unknown on the reliability right now. We have a huge inventory of KW and HPR and it has been a workhorse. With that said, I would buy DSR's if I had to do it all over again.
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Used to use MP415s a wedges and a few times as mains in small rooms. Went though 3 compression driver diaphragm replacements. Let the guy that owned them keep them at home and brought other stuff.
At the time they came out they didn't have the typical JBL icepick in the forehead sound and had a fair amount of bottom for speakers on sticks. You could mic the kick in a small bar though them. But the HF is really a weak point and these days there are much better options.
I've downsized from what I had and a pair of DSR112s over subs is plenty for anything I do now. 4 of the M-Pros would be able to keep up or have the clarity of one pair of DSRs as well. Will be doing an outdoor trailer stage tomorrow with the DSRs and they won't even break a sweat.
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You want mains with a larger Comp driver, coming from the SR series I bet that is what you are missing. The Yamaha DSR has the largest comp of all the offereings in that price bracket, I think that along with some excellent processing delivers the results they known for around here. Other options that may best that performance would be the SRX8XX powered poxes or maybe the RCF 7XX series both of which have 2" exit comps.
Unless I missed something in the other offering's line up RCF is the only one that has truly large format compression driver models in a molded plastic powered speaker as in a 1.4 exit with a 3 inch diaphragm and 2 inch exit with a 4 inch diaphragm.
Disclaimer time....I am set up direct with RCF.
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DSR's all day long......
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Another vote for DSRs. Or wait to see if the new DZR range brings something even better.
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I’m waiting for the Yamaha DZR12’s to hit the stores in a couple of months. Yamaha say these are a step up from the DSR’s.
The DSR112’s are highly regarded along with the cheaper DXR12’s.
Another option worth checking out is the RCF NX32a
https://www.rcf.it/products/product-detail/-/journal_content/56_INSTANCE_2MT9qNpeXdu4/20195/291501
This has a 3” compression driver which allows for a lower crossover point between the woofer and compression driver. Apparently this allows for more clarity in the vocal range.
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Unless I missed something in the other offering's line up RCF is the only one that has truly large format compression driver models in a molded plastic powered speaker as in a 1.4 exit with a 3 inch diaphragm and 2 inch exit with a 4 inch diaphragm.
Disclaimer time....I am set up direct with RCF.
Their sister company ? has the Ingenia line, http://www.dbtechnologies.com/en/products/ingenia.aspx 3 inch voice coil horn driver with 1.4 exit horns in the IG4T and IG3T speakers. I just picked up the IG4T's. Sound very good and only 40lbs.
Douglas R. Allen
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The DSR112 will tap dance all over an equivalent JPRO box. I have never tried a 2:1 test, but I wonder if even 2 mPro's would do the trick. I am certain that the clarity of the HF would not be there even with 2 boxes.
FWIW, I have yet to find a venue indoors where a pair of DSR112's over 4 PRX XLF's can't handle, and I rarely need more than 2 subs and run my DSR112's at "half throttle" to get the job done.
If you get a chance, go give the DSR112 a listen somewhere. Use subs with them though. They aren't designed to do much LF below 80Hz IME. For tops over subs, they are really hard to beat.
The SRX 812p is also a very good top.
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Are the SRX worth the price difference over the DSR?
I'm looking at upgrading and was thinking SRX over PRX (can't afford SRX subs) or DSR over DXS.
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Are the SRX worth the price difference over the DSR?
I'm looking at upgrading and was thinking SRX over PRX (can't afford SRX subs) or DSR over DXS.
I own all 3 (not DXS).....and I have answered this question a few times and said the same thing each time..... When it comes down to SRX and DSR sound quality, I do not believe the extra $ is necessarily worth paying but it depends on whether you want the following SRX conveniences.... side handles, tilt angle top hats, digital DSP and wireless DSP control.
SRX is a lot heavier too.
PRX is a great option and worth the money BUT does not sound as clear or hold its integrity at high SPL the same way a DSR does.
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Are the SRX worth the price difference over the DSR?
I'm looking at upgrading and was thinking SRX over PRX (can't afford SRX subs) or DSR over DXS.
I have both, and prefer the sound of the SRX. It will also go louder than the DSR IMO. I use both PRX and SRX systems several times a week, and love they way they both sound. The DSR's are very clear, and are excellent as monitors which is how I use them. I wasn't going to comment as I'm not familiar with your JPRO boxes, so YMMV.
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I have both, and prefer the sound of the SRX. It will also go louder than the DSR IMO. I use both PRX and SRX systems several times a week, and love they way they both sound. The DSR's are very clear, and are excellent as monitors which is how I use them. I wasn't going to comment as I'm not familiar with your JPRO boxes, so YMMV.
I'm not the OP, so don't have JPro.
I'm upgrading from Mackie SRM.
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I'm not the OP, so don't have JPro.
I'm upgrading from Mackie SRM.
I am the OP and I had the Mackie SRMs. Used them quite extensively and the MPros sound better so there's that. Neither one has the upper mid of the old SR4732's , but maybe that's because of the size & scale? I used the SR4732's over 4719's and it was LOUD and in your face.
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Neither one has the upper mid of the old SR4732's , but maybe that's because of the size & scale? I used the SR4732's over 4719's and it was LOUD and in your face.
Apples and Oranges.
* I've got a pair of SR4732s in a storage room somewhere....you are more than welcome to purchase them for a low price. Bring a forklift to carry them.
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Unless I missed something in the other offering's line up RCF is the only one that has truly large format compression driver models in a molded plastic powered speaker as in a 1.4 exit with a 3 inch diaphragm and 2 inch exit with a 4 inch diaphragm.
Disclaimer time....I am set up direct with RCF.
I have 12" RCFs with the large compression driver. HD-32A. I'm a fan, love the way they sound, like them a lot more than other similarly priced speakers ("similarly" = the RCFs are a little bit more expensive).
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I think the SRX is definitely a step up, but sound at that point becomes subjective. Does the SRX sound better? Perhaps not to some, and probably to others. Does the SRX outperform the DSR? Quite likely and realistically yes. If sound is the backseat choice while outright performance is the front seat, the SRX would win out.
Most all speakers that are above the $700 price point have nothing about them that makes them sound BAD. They all in fact sound pretty good. Which one sounds best when near its limits is the real question. None at that level will sound bad vs another, but one will walk away outperforming another. If a Behringer 12" model works and sounds great to you, then by all means....... The question is what does your budget allow for you to have in terms of performance vs. your needs. If you have low needs and expectations, then a low cost speaker will likely meet them. If you need high dollar performance but only have Behringer budget, then you have a choice to make. That is what you have to decide.
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My recommendation for the DSR over the SRX was also made because the OP asked for a 'smaller powered 12" top that will outperform the MP415'. The Yamaha is quite a bit smaller and lighter than the SRX and will still meet his needs.
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My recommendation for the DSR over the SRX was also made because the OP asked for a 'smaller powered 12" top that will outperform the MP415'. The Yamaha is quite a bit smaller and lighter than the SRX and will still meet his needs.
Yes, size is important, but then again, by going with powered tops I'll be losing an 8 RU road case. Between that and the 2 MPro's I'll have 14cu FT available. The 2 JBL's would be 8 cu FT and the 2 Yamahas are 6.14 cu FT. Now I need to hear them side by side. GC in Orlando doesn't have either in stock.
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Yes, size is important, but then again, by going with powered tops I'll be losing an 8 RU road case. Between that and the 2 MPro's I'll have 14cu FT available. The 2 JBL's would be 8 cu FT and the 2 Yamahas are 6.14 cu FT. Now I need to hear them side by side. GC in Orlando doesn't have either in stock.
So then you are not actually looking for speakers smaller than what you have already - you are looking for speakers smaller than 14 cu ft if you are now including the rack size. Then you could probably use basically anything (considered better sound quality than the MPros) within your budget - whatever your budget is.
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Yes, size is important, but then again, by going with powered tops I'll be losing an 8 RU road case. Between that and the 2 MPro's I'll have 14cu FT available. The 2 JBL's would be 8 cu FT and the 2 Yamahas are 6.14 cu FT. Now I need to hear them side by side. GC in Orlando doesn't have either in stock.
Mike,
I will be doing a small outside gig in Lakeland Saturday day if you want to hear the Yamahas. DM me for details if interested.
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So then you are not actually looking for speakers smaller than what you have already - you are looking for speakers smaller than 14 cu ft if you are now including the rack size. Then you could probably use basically anything (considered better sound quality than the MPros) within your budget - whatever your budget is.
Heck, if 14 cubic feet is the max, it puts larger powered speakers like the SRX835p in play (at 9.0 cu ft).
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The M-Pros actually sound pretty good. And while they don't have the evenness of pattern the DSRs do, they are much better than something like the QSC-Ks. They just won't go that loud compared to a modern speaker with a better CD. And suffer from the HF congestion when pushed that any budget speaker does.
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The M-Pros actually sound pretty good.
Yeah... kind of lost in the discussion here... the MPRO 400 series were great speakers in their day, and my guess would be that it would take something a level up from a QSC K or JBL PRX to do appreciably better today.
Confusing enough back then (and even moreso now) JBL had two MPRO lines: the 200 (covered in ratfur and junk) and the 400 (Duratex with infinitely better drivers). And Mike is currently using the MP415s.
I still have not heard a Yamaha DSR (which would seem to be the top contender here) so I'll leave the recommendations to others.
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Whatever model/brand you choose I would not go with anything less then a 133db peak spec considering the stage volume two guitars and drums put out .
Or we could just say two screaming electric guitars that the mix is typically built around in a club.
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I have RCF HD32 MK4 over sub 8004. Sounds quite good, but now i have bought some RCF TT25 CXA. This really is a difference of night and day,. You can buy around 2.5 HD32's for 1 CXA though.
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Yeah... kind of lost in the discussion here... the MPRO 400 series were great speakers in their day, and my guess would be that it would take something a level up from a QSC K or JBL PRX to do appreciably better today.
Confusing enough back then (and even moreso now) JBL had two MPRO lines: the 200 (covered in ratfur and junk) and the 400 (Duratex with infinitely better drivers). And Mike is currently using the MP415s.
I still have not heard a Yamaha DSR (which would seem to be the top contender here) so I'll leave the recommendations to others.
I was thinking about the rat fur version . Those were bad. I don’t know if I have ever heard the 400 series
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Also, based on the experience of losing 3 out of the 4 CDs, the little light bulb limiter doesn't protect the CD very well. Mostly we powered these with some sort of PLX, usually a 2402 for all four, never driven into clip. From limited experience with them, I think PRX7s would outrun them. QSC K's would be louder by a bit but have about the same clarity (or lack of it) at their limits. Both have better protection with limiters in the built in amps.
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Heck, if 14 cubic feet is the max, it puts larger powered speakers like the SRX835p in play (at 9.0 cu ft).
This could be a good option as well and will also offer some extra LF extension. Depending on the bar setups it can also keep sound off the walls given it's horizontal coverage.
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/portable-market/srx800-series/srx835p#.W0eDd03rtIA
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This could be a good option as well and will also offer some extra LF extension. Depending on the bar setups it can also keep sound off the walls given it's horizontal coverage.
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/portable-market/srx800-series/srx835p#.W0eDd03rtIA
Those won't work. At 85 lbs and 9 cu ft EACH, they're a little much for a sports bar band with an SUV.
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I own all 3 (not DXS).....and I have answered this question a few times and said the same thing each time..... When it comes down to SRX and DSR sound quality, I do not believe the extra $ is necessarily worth paying but it depends on whether you want the following SRX conveniences.... side handles, tilt angle top hats, digital DSP and wireless DSP control.
SRX is a lot heavier too.
PRX is a great option and worth the money BUT does not sound as clear or hold its integrity at high SPL the same way a DSR does.
Now Debbie says the DSR12 series sound very good, and from what she shares here they are her go to speakers, and she also owns/uses the SRX812P.
I own a pair of SRX812P's and I love the way sound, but they are a big box with some weight to them, i do get help putting them up. I also had the PRX712 Series and i loved how much smaller they were and lighter, but the SRX812P (to me anyway) sound much nicer, in turns of bass and clarity. There are many nice choices out there so it really it is a matter of budget, taste, size, and application for what you need that will really be your guide.
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Now Debbie says the DSR12 series sound very good, and from what she shares here they are her go to speakers, and she also owns/uses the SRX812P.
I own a pair of SRX812P's and I love the way sound, but they are a big box with some weight to them, i do get help putting them up. I also had the PRX712 Series and i loved how much smaller they were and lighter, but the SRX812P (to me anyway) sound much nicer, in turns of bass and clarity. There are many nice choices out there so it really it is a matter of budget, taste, size, and application for what you need that will really be your guide.
I agree.....I have PRX712's too that I use as monitors when I run sound for a band that doesn't use iems, and although they are definitely worthy speakers for bar work, (I still use them for FOH from time to time in very small venues), they do not stand up to the DSR's or the SRX's in terms of pure sound quality and clarity. I must admit though, they are such a joy to transport and stick up on tripods. I can do those myself - YAY!!