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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Sam Costa on January 08, 2019, 07:19:45 PM
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Hey everyone,
I have an event coming up in March (Carnival style) with live instruments perfoming in front of the stage on ground level and the performers (some singing, some acting) on stage level. Previous years I've used the trusty SM58's for the main vocalists and which are usually 1-2, then there are anywhere from 5-10 per side dancing on each side of the stage singing and dancing in line.
Stage is roughly 25'ft wide by 20'ft in depth. Hall size seats around 350 and I place 2 additional speakers about 40'ft in front of the main FOH for additional sound coverage.
I'm hoping to catch more of the dancers vocals and some of the acting going on in the middle of the stage in between songs. I would like to use 1-2 mics per side on stage to capture some of this.
In your experience, what are some of the better mics that won't break the bank for this purpose? I dont have the option of hanging them from the ceiling so they would have to be floor mounted on boom mic stands.
Photos for reference of last years Carnival:
(https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Carnival%202018_zpsx5czhdbi.jpg) (https://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Carnival%202018_zpsx5czhdbi.jpg.html)
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How many mics do you really think you need? And how much money do you have to spend on them?
I'm a big fan of the Heil PR22UT myself, and it's only just barely more expensive than the SM58, like $10-15 at most.
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I have a pair of AkG c3000b. The old ones. They have card or hyper card patterns control. If it were me, I would try them in hyper card XY centered to start. Then card. Then 1 per side card and hyper card. See what you get and like best. Bought the pair used from a closing studio at $350. It was $350 well spent. Choral, Taiko, ‘grass, They just seem to work.
You could also space 57’s or i5’s on boom stands in a line 4 to 6.
Amature choral is a bit of a crap shoot IME. So much depends on the quality of the singers and relative volume. If you have time to try a few things that would be for the best.
I have also used a pair Behringer eco-8000’s centered in XY for both choral and taiko. They worked OK. The akg’s are sweeter.
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No option to use wireless mics with lavs or headsets?
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If it were me, I would try them in hyper card XY centered to start. Then card. Then 1 per side card and hyper card.
Agreed, since they're not being close mic'd. I've used SM27's for choral groups with good results.
@Sam - make sure you're HPF'ing whatever you use to keep the stomping out of the PA.
Dave
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Area micing, combat mixing.
In this instance I'd reach for my half dozen AKG C-535eb, and put foam pop filters on them. Activate pad/roll-off filters.
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Area micing, combat mixing.
In this instance I'd reach for my half dozen AKG C-535eb, and put foam pop filters on them. Activate pad/roll-off filters.
I'm with Tim. Good choice with the AKG C-535.
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Hey everyone,
I have an event coming up in March (Carnival style) with live instruments perfoming in front of the stage on ground level and the performers (some singing, some acting) on stage level. Previous years I've used the trusty SM58's for the main vocalists and which are usually 1-2, then there are anywhere from 5-10 per side dancing on each side of the stage singing and dancing in line.
Stage is roughly 25'ft wide by 20'ft in depth. Hall size seats around 350 and I place 2 additional speakers about 40'ft in front of the main FOH for additional sound coverage.
I'm hoping to catch more of the dancers vocals and some of the acting going on in the middle of the stage in between songs. I would like to use 1-2 mics per side on stage to capture some of this.
In your experience, what are some of the better mics that won't break the bank for this purpose? I dont have the option of hanging them from the ceiling so they would have to be floor mounted on boom mic stands.
Photos for reference of last years Carnival:
(https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Carnival%202018_zpsx5czhdbi.jpg) (https://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Carnival%202018_zpsx5czhdbi.jpg.html)
If it were me, I'd approach this as a choral application.
For chorus' I use: Shure MX202B/C choral mics. They do a good job for me plus they are stand-mountable.
From the looks of your stage two of the above mics and one SM58 (centered) as a soloist mic (mute/unmute as needed) should do it.
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Hey everyone,
I have an event coming up in March (Carnival style) with live instruments perfoming in front of the stage on ground level and the performers (some singing, some acting) on stage level. Previous years I've used the trusty SM58's for the main vocalists and which are usually 1-2, then there are anywhere from 5-10 per side dancing on each side of the stage singing and dancing in line.
Stage is roughly 25'ft wide by 20'ft in depth. Hall size seats around 350 and I place 2 additional speakers about 40'ft in front of the main FOH for additional sound coverage.
I'm hoping to catch more of the dancers vocals and some of the acting going on in the middle of the stage in between songs. I would like to use 1-2 mics per side on stage to capture some of this.
In your experience, what are some of the better mics that won't break the bank for this purpose? I dont have the option of hanging them from the ceiling so they would have to be floor mounted on boom mic stands.
Photos for reference of last years Carnival:
(https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Carnival%202018_zpsx5czhdbi.jpg) (https://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Carnival%202018_zpsx5czhdbi.jpg.html)
Hi Sam,
I sent you a PM.
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Cheap solution: couple of lead vocal mics and some condensers as general area mics.
Preferred solution:
DPA 4088 on all performers that use their voice, 4099 on all instruments and as many channels of wireless as needed.
Proper soundcheck and a run-through before the audience arrives.
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Cheap solution: couple of lead vocal mics and some condensers as general area mics.
Preferred solution:
DPA 4088 on all performers that use their voice, 4099 on all instruments and as many channels of wireless as needed.
Proper soundcheck and a run-through before the audience arrives.
Are DPA mics sold at some kind of serious discount in Oslo?
Also the idea that there will be rehearsal at Sam's event is... uh... a dream. They walk up and "perform".
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Are DPA mics sold at some kind of serious discount in Oslo?
Also the idea that there will be rehearsal at Sam's event is... uh... a dream. They walk up and "perform".
DPA 4066/4088 and 4099 is found everywhere here and is considered standard items once you get a level or two above the ankle-biters.
I know all about no SC for this, done too many corporate events with talking heads and performers with no SC, just me doing a LC during setup.
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I'd probably go with 58s for the singers and a couple few SD condensers on the sides. To me what would be more important is getting the mics as close as possible to the sound source, and ringing out the system, apply HPF then using your main EQ to find the couple/few worst offending frequencies so you might get a few dB extra room to work with. I also tend to slightly pan stage right zone mics to house right speaker(stage left speaker) and vice versa. That can get you a couple dB too.
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Hey everyone,
I have an event coming up in March (Carnival style) with live instruments perfoming in front of the stage on ground level and the performers (some singing, some acting) on stage level. Previous years I've used the trusty SM58's for the main vocalists and which are usually 1-2, then there are anywhere from 5-10 per side dancing on each side of the stage singing and dancing in line.
Stage is roughly 25'ft wide by 20'ft in depth. Hall size seats around 350 and I place 2 additional speakers about 40'ft in front of the main FOH for additional sound coverage.
I'm hoping to catch more of the dancers vocals and some of the acting going on in the middle of the stage in between songs. I would like to use 1-2 mics per side on stage to capture some of this.
In your experience, what are some of the better mics that won't break the bank for this purpose? I dont have the option of hanging them from the ceiling so they would have to be floor mounted on boom mic stands.
Photos for reference of last years Carnival:
(https://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/fullforcesound/Carnival%202018_zpsx5czhdbi.jpg) (https://s10.photobucket.com/user/fullforcesound/media/Carnival%202018_zpsx5czhdbi.jpg.html)
How far up stage are they from your truss? Do the curtains close at any time? Will you be setting up your speakers the same way as shown in the picture?
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How far up stage are they from your truss? Do the curtains close at any time? Will you be setting up your speakers the same way as shown in the picture?
Hi Kevin,
The trussing is roughly 2-3'ft in front of the stage
The curtains close after every act. There will be roughly 12-15 acts in a matter of 24 hours - non stop. (It's insane!)
The FOH and truss will be setup exactly the same for this year.
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No option to use wireless mics with lavs or headsets?
Bob, absolutely not... This is a 24 hour event with non stop acts and dancing with as much as 25 people on stage at any given time. lol
It's insane.
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I'd probably go with 58s for the singers and a couple few SD condensers on the sides. To me what would be more important is getting the mics as close as possible to the sound source, and ringing out the system, apply HPF then using your main EQ to find the couple/few worst offending frequencies so you might get a few dB extra room to work with. I also tend to slightly pan stage right zone mics to house right speaker(stage left speaker) and vice versa. That can get you a couple dB too.
I guess I should have mentioned that last year for this event I used the following:
3 Beta58's for the main vocalists up front.
2 SM57 (1 on each side) for the front choir singers
2 AKG C3000 large diaphragm condensers on stage (1 on each side)
Dont get me wrong, it sounded pretty good during the actually performance of them dancing and singing with the musicians performing right in front of the stage, the only area that I was concerned with was capturing more of the "acting" and some of the performers weren't projecting their vocals really loudly so I worked the faders a bit just before feedback and it was fine. Just wanted to see if there was a better/different approach than what I did last year I could use for this year. :)
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Just wanted to see if there was a better/different approach than what I did last year I could use for this year. :)
I guess the only thing that might be missing is hanging a mic or two above the middle of the stage, perhaps angled towards the back of the stage a little.
That'd give more options for area mic pickup.
Chris
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Seems a few large format condensers would work. AKG comes to mind as having something affordable (their "Perception" series).
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Sam, why not put a couple of short shotgun mics mounted on the truss? Point them to the area of the stage you want, bring them up when needed.
Any reason you can't mount mics on the truss?
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Hi Kevin,
The trussing is roughly 2-3'ft in front of the stage
The curtains close after every act. There will be roughly 12-15 acts in a matter of 24 hours - non stop. (It's insane!)
The FOH and truss will be setup exactly the same for this year.
I was asking about the truss and curtain because I was thinking along the lines as a few others have said about hanging some mics from the truss. But I was going to suggest that you strap a mic stand (without the bass on it) with a boom arm down to the truss about a third of the way out (towards the center) on each side. Then extend it just enough upstage so it is still clear of the curtain, with the boom arm hanging down enough to get the mics in a better position. You can relatively easily play with the position of the mics a little bit easier than just hanging them off of the truss. Or leave off the boom and hang the mic from the end of the stand, this will get these mics a little bit upstage from the truss. Then use whatever appropriate mic you have for this. If you have a small diaphragm condenser I would think that would be the best choice. This is all assuming that the look of this is acceptable to those in charge.
Depending on what mixer you have I would then assign these to a Mix Bus or subgroup and EQ that Bus for the best gain before feedback. Be careful to not over EQ that Bus. Then assign that bus to your mains. Be sure those channels aren’t also assigned to the mains. Apply a little bit of delay to these mics on their channel or the bus, to time align them to the mains. You won’t need much delay maybe only 4 or 5ms.
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Sam, why not put a couple of short shotgun mics mounted on the truss? Point them to the area of the stage you want, bring them up when needed.
Any reason you can't mount mics on the truss?
Hi Eric,
Believe me, I've thought about that too, but they close the curtain in-between every act so that they can perform set changes for the next group.
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Hi Eric,
Believe me, I've thought about that too, but they close the curtain in-between every act so that they can perform set changes for the next group.
Why would that be a problem? The method I suggested and the one that Eric has suggested should clear the curtain when that open and shut it.
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Hi Eric,
Believe me, I've thought about that too, but they close the curtain in-between every act so that they can perform set changes for the next group.
Like Kevin, I don't see a problem with this. Does the curtain rub against the truss? Then mount the mics on the downstage side of the truss. Short shotgun mics should be just about the same length as the truss width. And it's triangle truss, so you can clear the truss with the mic element if it is mounted below the top of the truss, yet the truss will still keep it from being hit by the curtain.
A couple of c-clamps and short desktop mic stand stems and you have the perfect mount for that truss. Run the cables through the truss. Easy.
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I think you may like SDCs better than LDCs for the general area pick up. At the lounge level prices they tend to sound more even at the edges of the pattern.
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I know you asked about mics, but i would leverage the Heck out of an Automixer in this environment. Don't know what you're using to mix, but even the X32 automixer can add a HUGE amount of GBF, especially free for all situations like this one...
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Place mics to have their nulls pointed at your speakers. Ring out the room.
The quest for an array of perfect mics is the wrong quest.
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4 condensor of whatever type you can afford, everything from lowly AKG c1000, to AT 4050. Hpf the bass at 100-120 and blend to taste. The further back from your foh speakers you can get the better and the closer to the performers will help. A little eq to prevent them getting close to the ‘ring’ and blend to taste.
Lav’s can work, but expensive and really need some rehearsal, shotguns are a waste of time in my experience, either too directional and not much better at a bit of distance than an ordinary cardioid. Good luck hope it works out for you.
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4 condensor of whatever type you can afford, everything from lowly AKG c1000, to AT 4050. Hpf the bass at 100-120 and blend to taste. The further back from your foh speakers you can get the better and the closer to the performers will help. A little eq to prevent them getting close to the ‘ring’ and blend to taste.
Lav’s can work, but expensive and really need some rehearsal, shotguns are a waste of time in my experience, either too directional and not much better at a bit of distance than an ordinary cardioid. Good luck hope it works out for you.
That would be my approach, 4 condensers boomed off the overhead truss - tune it up and go.
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If you decide to use the truss,
I have some clamps with extensions for a mic that would work perfectly for this.
I have different lengths available.
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If you decide to use the truss,
I have some clamps with extensions for a mic that would work perfectly for this.
I have different lengths available.
Oh, that's neat. They'd be great for putting a second mic on a stand for singer + acoustic guitar.
Where from, how much?
PM me if you like.
Chris
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Oh, that's neat. They'd be great for putting a second mic on a stand for singer + acoustic guitar.
Where from, how much?
PM me if you like.
Chris
https://www.atlasied.com/microphone-stand-accessories-clamps
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Oh, that's neat. They'd be great for putting a second mic on a stand for singer + acoustic guitar.
Where from, how much?
PM me if you like.
Chris
These clamps have a range of 1" to 2 1/4", so they won't clamp down to a mic stand.
They are my lighting clamps and intended for tripods and trusses.
I made the mic adapter bar intended for room mics, but I have use them in choir applications clamped to the speaker tripods with long extensions.
They clamp without tools and don't damage the truss.
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In my experience, you need to be within about 4-5 ft, 1-1.5m at maximum or you are not going to get much useable stuff. I did a job with choir mics at the Queen Elizabeth Hall 3-4 years ago. The choir was 120 voices and pretty much fully upstage (which is a good 40 ft) and mics were about 2-3m from the voices hung from the truss. It was perhaps “marginal”. I’m working on my view of the pictures as to what is probably practical and should work.