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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: David Parker on November 03, 2013, 04:50:49 pm

Title: daylight savings time
Post by: David Parker on November 03, 2013, 04:50:49 pm
Last night I was providing for a band playing in a club. At 1:45 the band tells the audience good night. The manager throws a fit, tells them they have to play until 2:45, because, since it's daylight savings time "fall back", they get to stay open another hour, so the band has to play. Anyone else run into this? We stayed and played, making it a long night. They played from 9:45pm to 2:45am, with 4 15 minute breaks, I played mp3's on the breaks. Somebody from the club (it's a local chain) was supposed to contact the bands, but they had not contacted anyone from this band. I thought I was gonna get an extra hour of sleep!
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: David Simpson on November 03, 2013, 05:16:24 pm
This is pretty standard in my area. Although, typically, the group receives an extra few bucks to compensate them for the extended set. Although you would hope the promoter / club owner would be proactive in having the conversation, as someone working or playing the gig I would ask ahead of time how the situation was being addressed due knowing there is added time in the day. If the band has a contract for a certain number of sets or length of time, of course that completely changes things.

~Dave
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: David Parker on November 03, 2013, 05:19:16 pm
This is pretty standard in my area. Although, typically, the group receives an extra few bucks to compensate them for the extended set. Although you would hope the promoter / club owner would be proactive in having the conversation, as someone working or playing the gig I would ask ahead of time how the situation was being addressed due knowing there is added time in the day. If the band has a contract for a certain number of sets or length of time, of course that completely changes things.

~Dave
someone from the club was supposed to contact the band, but they did not. It has not been the standard around here. One of my other bands was playing elsewhere, and they shut down at the usual time, so it is not at this point in time the standard around here. Next year this time I will hit whatever band I'm working for up and get some sort of a heads up from the club.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: John Chiara on November 03, 2013, 05:23:35 pm
Last night I was providing for a band playing in a club. At 1:45 the band tells the audience good night. The manager throws a fit, tells them they have to play until 2:45, because, since it's daylight savings time "fall back", they get to stay open another hour, so the band has to play. Anyone else run into this? We stayed and played, making it a long night. They played from 9:45pm to 2:45am, with 4 15 minute breaks, I played mp3's on the breaks. Somebody from the club (it's a local chain) was supposed to contact the bands, but they had not contacted anyone from this band. I thought I was gonna get an extra hour of sleep!
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Scott Wagner on November 03, 2013, 05:43:23 pm
"Fall Back Saturday" is a coveted gig in bar-land.  That extra hour of sales makes for a happy bar owner, happy patrons, appreciative crowds, and happy bands.  The aftermath makes for happy DUI lawyers.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: David Simpson on November 03, 2013, 06:05:35 pm
someone from the club was supposed to contact the band, but they did not. It has not been the standard around here. One of my other bands was playing elsewhere, and they shut down at the usual time, so it is not at this point in time the standard around here. Next year this time I will hit whatever band I'm working for up and get some sort of a heads up from the club.

That is a big difference. I can't think of a single place around here that does not take advantage of the extra hour and stay open later. Since that is not the norm in your area, then I would definitely say the burden is on the venue to communicate. The last thing you want that time of night is a surprise like that.

~Dave
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: John Roberts {JR} on November 03, 2013, 06:45:04 pm
I'm shocked...

JR
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: duane massey on November 03, 2013, 06:58:15 pm
Down here in Texas we have a patchwork of different closing times by law. Back in the 80's we played a club that came up to us at 1:30 and told us we needed to play an extra set, for no extra $$. After a brief discussion with us saying "No", they first threatened us with the usual "You'll never play here again", but eventually paid us an extra $150 for a 1/2 set after 2AM. And we did play there again, several times.
Out in the sticks a lot of bars can't stay open past 1AM on Saturdays, so it's a moot point.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Jerome Malsack on November 03, 2013, 07:42:54 pm
I would also like to point out that it is not only the venue who should be responsible to ask the question. 
 
The band should have looked ahead and asked the question also.  Does the band contract say from 9 to 2 or
does the band contract claim 4 hours of show from start with two 15 minute breaks?? 

Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Kemper Watson on November 03, 2013, 08:13:14 pm
When I last worked in bars around here, no one took advantage of the extra hour, and in return the cops didn't shut them down an hour early in the spring.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Scott Wagner on November 03, 2013, 08:44:03 pm
When I last worked in bars around here, no one took advantage of the extra hour, and in return the cops didn't shut them down an hour early in the spring.
The time changes officially happen at 0200, so there is no legal way to "shut them down an hour early in spring."  In the "Spring Forward", at 0200 it becomes 0300 - net effect is ziltch.  In the "Fall Back", at 0200 it becomes 0100 again.  I can't imagine any business not taking advantage of this, but I'm sure some exist.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: David Parker on November 03, 2013, 09:26:50 pm
I would also like to point out that it is not only the venue who should be responsible to ask the question. 
 
The band should have looked ahead and asked the question also.  Does the band contract say from 9 to 2 or
does the band contract claim 4 hours of show from start with two 15 minute breaks??

I don't think the band had a contract, just a gentleman's agreement. Next year will be different. Another band I work for occasionally played last night and shut down at 1:45 as usual, no questions asked. All the bars stay open the extra hour, but most have not asked the band to play later. The club where I was last night is one of a local chain, and I'm sure someone in upper management got this idea and failed to relate it properly. It did make for a sticky situation. Some bands I know would have to repeat a previous set, wouldn't have the reportoire  to cover another set. This band had plenty of material. I thought the last set was the best set. This has not been the norm in the area, so next year we'll know to ask.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Jeff Bankston on November 03, 2013, 09:27:13 pm
I'm shocked...

JR
was it 480 3 phase ? :o
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: David Parker on November 03, 2013, 09:29:20 pm
The time changes officially happen at 0200, so there is no legal way to "shut them down an hour early in spring."  In the "Spring Forward", at 0200 it becomes 0300 - net effect is ziltch.  In the "Fall Back", at 0200 it becomes 0100 again.  I can't imagine any business not taking advantage of this, but I'm sure some exist.

all of them I know of around here stay open the extra hour, but have not asked the bands to cover that time. That means the band plays 5 hours with 4 15 minute breaks. That's a long night. Next year I'll ask.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Chuck Simon on November 04, 2013, 09:11:35 am
Wow!  In over 30 years of playing music and doing sound all over the country, I have never run into an issue with Daylight Savings time!  The time change always took affect after the gig.  I have never been asked to play longer or quit early because of time change.

In Pa., where I now mostly work, the bar closes at 2:00 AM and the clock is changed afterwards - the state does not allow an "extra" hour.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: kristianjohnsen on November 04, 2013, 11:01:50 am
Last night I was providing for a band playing in a club. At 1:45 the band tells the audience good night. The manager throws a fit, tells them they have to play until 2:45, because, since it's daylight savings time "fall back", they get to stay open another hour, so the band has to play. Anyone else run into this? We stayed and played, making it a long night. They played from 9:45pm to 2:45am, with 4 15 minute breaks, I played mp3's on the breaks. Somebody from the club (it's a local chain) was supposed to contact the bands, but they had not contacted anyone from this band. I thought I was gonna get an extra hour of sleep!

In my town (probably the entire country) the practice has always been that the closing time of the establishemt is according to the clock on the register which shall not be touched until after closing time. 

This means that the place is open the same amount of hours on the night of both "adjustments", and from a liqour licensing standpoint, the bar closes "equally late" as perceived by the patroins going out that night (read:  they go home about equally drunk as they would have been if the clock had not been set that night).

This year was different in my town:  Last spring, the bars were all forced by the police to close an hour early, but they were denied the opportunity to keep serving for an extra hour this fall.  Needless to say, loyalty towards the liqour licensing board has taken a hit...
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Scott Wagner on November 04, 2013, 12:52:23 pm
In my town (probably the entire country) the practice has always been that the closing time of the establishemt is according to the clock on the register which shall not be touched until after closing time. 

This means that the place is open the same amount of hours on the night of both "adjustments", and from a liqour licensing standpoint, the bar closes "equally late" as perceived by the patroins going out that night (read:  they go home about equally drunk as they would have been if the clock had not been set that night).

This year was different in my town:  Last spring, the bars were all forced by the police to close an hour early, but they were denied the opportunity to keep serving for an extra hour this fall.  Needless to say, loyalty towards the liqour licensing board has taken a hit...
I'm no lawyer, but I'd bet a paycheck this could be successfully challenged in a court of law.  Federal Law trumps all State and Local laws.  The official time of day is regulated by the U.S. Government.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Jay Barracato on November 04, 2013, 12:58:30 pm
I'm no lawyer, but I'd bet a paycheck this could be successfully challenged in a court of law.  Federal Law trumps all State and Local laws.  The official time of day is regulated by the U.S. Government.

I will take that bet and give you 100 to 1 odds as well.


I little insider information including the fact that Kristian doesn't live in the US.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Chris Hindle on November 04, 2013, 01:01:14 pm
I'm no lawyer, but I'd bet a paycheck this could be successfully challenged in a court of law.  Federal Law trumps all State and Local laws.  The official time of day is regulated by the U.S. Government.
.... and why do you suppose Norway gives a toss about what the USA says ??
This here is a big, big audience. Nice to get perspectives about how the rest of the world thinks. Not just what is "normal" in North America.
In Canada, Saskatchewan doesn't follow DST, so maybe it's a provincial thing, not federal.
Don't know, don't really care. As long as my checque clears, I'll be where you want, when you want.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Scott Wagner on November 04, 2013, 01:03:09 pm
.... and why do you suppose Norway gives a toss about what the USA says ??
This here is a big, big audience. Nice to get perspectives about how the rest of the world thinks. Not just what is "normal" in North America.
In Canada, Saskatchewan doesn't follow DST, bo maybe it's a provincial thing, not federal.
Don't know, don't really care. As long as my checque clears, I'll be where you want, when you want.
Mia Culpa. I answered without looking at the poster's location.  With questions of DST, I assumed we were speaking of the USA.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Steve M Smith on November 04, 2013, 02:17:37 pm
Wow!  In over 30 years of playing music and doing sound all over the country, I have never run into an issue with Daylight Savings time!

Same here in England.

I answered without looking at the poster's location.  With questions of DST, I assumed we were speaking of the USA.

Remember, the rest of you are just working on an offset from our Greenwich Mean Time!!


Steve.
Steve.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Chuck Simon on November 04, 2013, 02:29:32 pm
I will take that bet and give you 100 to 1 odds as well.


I little insider information including the fact that Kristian doesn't live in the US.

Actually, you might win that bet even if he was in America.  The Federal Gov does not dictate that states use daylight savings time.  Neither Arizona or Hawaii have chosen to use it.
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Kemper Watson on November 04, 2013, 03:19:26 pm
The time changes officially happen at 0200, so there is no legal way to "shut them down an hour early in spring."  In the "Spring Forward", at 0200 it becomes 0300 - net effect is ziltch.  In the "Fall Back", at 0200 it becomes 0100 again.  I can't imagine any business not taking advantage of this, but I'm sure some exist.

I should have been clearer.. I worked in Atlanta where closing times were a bit different. They have been changed somewhat since I last worked regurlarly in bars but in the spring when 2 am became 3 am is what I was alluding to, with 3am being the closing time
Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Brian Jojade on November 04, 2013, 04:40:53 pm
This issue should never come up as a surprise.  It happens twice a year, and always on Sunday morning at 2:00AM.  Around here, bars can stay open until 2:30 AM, so it does happen during hours that the bar can be open.  So it needs to be made clear how it's going to be dealt with before hand.  Assumption on anybody's part is the wrong way to handle it.

If they want an extra hour of entertainment, it definitely should be compensated for.  I'd be willing to bet that none of the other employees in the establishment are working that one extra hour for free.  If they want the same rate, then move the starting time back one hour so the total hours played are the same.  If you're looking to argue, ask them if you play during spring forward, if you'd get to pack up an hour early and still get the same pay.  Doubt that would fly well either.

Title: Re: daylight savings time
Post by: Gordon Brinton on November 05, 2013, 02:29:23 am
Last night I was providing for a band playing in a club. At 1:45 the band tells the audience good night. The manager throws a fit, tells them they have to play until 2:45, because, since it's daylight savings time "fall back", they get to stay open another hour, so the band has to play. Anyone else run into this? We stayed and played, making it a long night. They played from 9:45pm to 2:45am, with 4 15 minute breaks, I played mp3's on the breaks. Somebody from the club (it's a local chain) was supposed to contact the bands, but they had not contacted anyone from this band. I thought I was gonna get an extra hour of sleep!

What would have happened if the band had refused to play any longer? Would the club have refused payment in full? After the first 4 hours, had they not earned their pay and fulfilled their agreement? They could have unplugged at that point and demanded payment.

This is why it's a bad idea to NOT have a contract.