ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => AC Power and Grounding => Topic started by: Rick Earl on September 09, 2014, 03:24:11 PM
-
I saw this ad today, I was tempted to buy it just to get it off the streets.
http://greensboro.craigslist.org/msg/4659990782.html (http://greensboro.craigslist.org/msg/4659990782.html)
-
I saw this ad today, I was tempted to buy it just to get it off the streets.
http://greensboro.craigslist.org/msg/4659990782.html (http://greensboro.craigslist.org/msg/4659990782.html)
Scary to think of how many boxes like that get used on a regular basis....
-
I saw this ad today, I was tempted to buy it just to get it off the streets.
http://greensboro.craigslist.org/msg/4659990782.html (http://greensboro.craigslist.org/msg/4659990782.html)
I'm confused.... it looks to be 3Ø -- but he has L14-30 twist on 10/4, so that's not enough conductors... oww... my head....
-
I saw this ad today, I was tempted to buy it just to get it off the streets.
http://greensboro.craigslist.org/msg/4659990782.html (http://greensboro.craigslist.org/msg/4659990782.html)
Wow! This is bad... VERY bad.... >:(
-
I'm confused.... it looks to be 3Ø -- but he has L14-30 twist on 10/4, so that's not enough conductors... oww... my head....
I think the 3rd fuse is for the neutral, which I'm guessing is the black battery clamp. As I said... VERY bad.
-
Serious suggestion here: How about EVERYONE responds to the ad to tell him how f*cked up his "distro" is? If his email gets blown up by professionals slamming him, and insisting he pull it from sale immediately, maybe he will?
I mean, you can sell 100' of L14-30 for a couple hundred bucks, so just be like "dude, sell the cable, scrap your distro, call it a day."
Mike, not sure, because it looks like there's another wire coming in on the right side. With white, but maybe he intends that to be the grounding line. Since I don't see a ground anywhere else. A fused neutral... hmmm.
-
Serious suggestion here: How about EVERYONE responds to the ad to tell him how f*cked up his "distro" is? If his email gets blown up by professionals slamming him, and insisting he pull it from sale immediately, maybe he will?
I did "flag" it on CL as prohibited. ;D But it'll probably take a lot of "flags" to get it pulled.
-
I'm confused.... it looks to be 3Ø -- but he has L14-30 twist on 10/4, so that's not enough conductors... oww... my head....
and 10/4 is only rated for 25A....
-
Mike, not sure, because it looks like there's another wire coming in on the right side. With white, but maybe he intends that to be the grounding line. Since I don't see a ground anywhere else. A fused neutral... hmmm.
I just don't know. I'm pretty sure it's not actually 3-phase, but maybe I'm wrong. There's little chance there's anything code compliant about this sort of setup, so anything's possible.
Yes, they used to fuse the neutrals in old theater wiring for lighting. I can remember seeing it in the Maryland Theater back in the 70's. Of course, we don't fuse neutrals nowadays for a variety of safety and troubleshooting reasons. I'm getting ready to teach a class in a few minutes, but after I get home tonight I'll look this guy up on Craigslist and have a chat with him about the liability of selling something that's a serous code violation. He probably won't care, but at least I'll sleep a little better.
-
I just don't know. I'm pretty sure it's not actually 3-phase, but maybe I'm wrong. There's little chance there's anything code compliant about this sort of setup, so anything's possible.
Yes, they used to fuse the neutrals in old theater wiring for lighting. I can remember seeing it in the Maryland Theater back in the 70's. Of course, we don't fuse neutrals nowadays for a variety of safety and troubleshooting reasons. I'm getting ready to teach a class in a few minutes, but after I get home tonight I'll look this guy up on Craigslist and have a chat with him about the liability of selling something that's a serous code violation. He probably won't care, but at least I'll sleep a little better.
The blue looks like it goes to neutral lug but the black clamp goes to a fuse. I am sure he just didn't know any better.
I have seen these used locally, including at a church dogwash that had booths for local pet vendors and a small stage for the youth band. I was freaked out with all the tubs of water and wet barefoot children running around. I could not convince anyone to do anything about it and even by cop buddy said it was a code enforcement issue.
I requested a meeting with the pastor and whomever was reasonable for this mess. My reward? They don't call me for work anymore.
-
I agree it looks like 3 phase 4 wire-with the blue going to neutral lug-likely sees no need to connect both a white wire and a green wire in parallel from the panel to the disconnect. He did use the accepted colors for the 3 phase wires though.
I have found it very, very difficult to get others in a church environment to be willing to spend money/time/effort on electrical safety-unless you can point to another church and say, "The pastor got electrocuted in the baptismal tank-maybe we should consider safety...."-you almost have to prove that someone got hurt doing exactly the same thing.
-
I agree it looks like 3 phase 4 wire-with the blue going to neutral lug-likely sees no need to connect both a white wire and a green wire in parallel from the panel to the disconnect. He did use the accepted colors for the 3 phase wires though.
I have found it very, very difficult to get others in a church environment to be willing to spend money/time/effort on electrical safety-unless you can point to another church and say, "The pastor got electrocuted in the baptismal tank-maybe we should consider safety...."-you almost have to prove that someone got hurt doing exactly the same thing.
I dated a girl in Jacksonville and she asked if we could go to her family church one sunday. At the time I was with First Baptist Jacksonville that had very forward thinking AV department, had just built a new building and we were doing a live feed over STL for a local broadcast channel. I was young, maybe late 20's at the time but had been blessed to work around brutal seasoned techs that simply would not take anything less than perfect. I thank each and every one of them today for every connector I had to remake. Anyway as usual I am digressing.
So we get to her church and let's just say the service was less "energetic" not even a choir. So they had few baptisms and I noticed that he was using a corded microphone. Now I was paying attention.
Surprisingly after the service her father (an elder) asked me to take a look at the sound system. It was in a wall mounted cabinet old Bogen, I do think it was solid state. The baptismal area was sub-tended by a classic shure four input dial broadcast mixer. The cabinet had not been cleaned in 10 plus years. The pots were so noisy you would not believe it. They had 70v distribution with small 8" two ways every couple of feet on the wall.
So I went to have look at the the mic by the pool. It was wrapped in friction tape. I assumed for gripping purposes with wet hands. Well it turns out that it was to keep from getting shocked. When I talked to him he said it was bad when he forgot and put his lips to the windscreen. So like any good engineer I stuck my hand in the pool had my girlfriend hold the mic and in a controlled and professional manner gingerly touched the windscreen to assess the potential. It wasn't as bad as I thought, much like being hit with ring voltage while working on a punch block.
I could not agree more, the OP, the dog wash, this guy, we could go on and on. It's just sad that people have to get hurt or killed before people will pay attention. We had a young boy killed on a carnival ride a few years ago and it raised awareness for awhile.
It should not be this way, and business should not be lost to fools who are willing to break the rules for unscrupulous owners, organizers etc.
-
The blue looks like it goes to neutral lug but the black clamp goes to a fuse. I am sure he just didn't know any better.
I have seen these used locally, including at a church dogwash that had booths for local pet vendors and a small stage for the youth band. I was freaked out with all the tubs of water and wet barefoot children running around. I could not convince anyone to do anything about it and even by cop buddy said it was a code enforcement issue.
I requested a meeting with the pastor and whomever was reasonable for this mess. My reward? They don't call me for work anymore.
Churches have a vested interest in having folks "meet their maker." I call it criminal negligence.
-
The trouble with churches they will let anyone in.
Thank God they let me in.
-
The trouble with churches they will let anyone in.
That's not the problem. The problem is that they let anyone work on technical and life/safety issues.
-
That's not the problem. The problem is that they let anyone work on technical and life/safety issues.
Some do. Some would never do that. My point is that churches are run by people. They have a good chance of receiving forgiveness and grace and salvation, but they don't get any special wisdom. I wish it were not so. It breaks my heart that churches preach the word every Sunday to congregations that can not understand it because of the acoustics and sound systems and of coarse it is crazy that they let anyone work on technical and life/safety issues. That is wrong. But we can't expect any more of them then any other group of people. We just need to educate them. The people that run the church, the people that run the lions club or the American legion, ETC. they need education.
-
FWIW, I intended nothing against churches-I am very heavily involved, but even from the inside I find it hard to raise the issue without being seen as a critic. I'm not sure if it is because "they" have gotten away with substandard so long without any issues?
Back to the OP. As for buying it to get it off the street-it looks almost new. Hopefully he is not "manufacturing" these to make money? Obviously, IF he is buying the 10-4 SO he can't be making much, but stranger things have happened.
-
I'm confused.... it looks to be 3Ø -- but he has L14-30 twist on 10/4, so that's not enough conductors... oww... my head....
I'll offer my best guess, since I can play along from home.
The two red clamps are for the "hots". (Just like jumper cables for your car.)
The black clamp is for the "other" wire - a/k/a the neutral. It is fused, and downstream of the fuse it becomes the blue wire. (Left hand side of the box.)
The small guage blue wire upstream of the box is the ground. It is not fused, and downstream becomes white in color (colour) as it heads to the female connector mounted to the box. Note that it appears to be bonded to the "neutral" wire - which is now blue.
240 volt split phase, at an unknown amp rating (despite the use of what appears to be an L14-30 connector).
If you are used to working on 12vdc automotive wiring, it might kinda make sense....
-
If you are used to working on 12vdc automotive wiring, it might kinda make sense....
As a retired auto mechanic, NO. No sense at all.
As an Audio Dude, NO. No sense at all.
It is un-safe, and depending on how someone connects those 3 alligator clips, quite dangerous.
Would you prefer no ground, or no neutral ? Neither is acceptable to me.
If that POS ever goes near 3 phase, I could see 3 hots getting connected. No neutral or ground.
Say goodby to your rig.
-
As a retired auto mechanic, NO. No sense at all.
As an Audio Dude, NO. No sense at all.
It is un-safe, and depending on how someone connects those 3 alligator clips, quite dangerous.
Would you prefer no ground, or no neutral ? Neither is acceptable to me.
If that POS ever goes near 3 phase, I could see 3 hots getting connected. No neutral or ground.
Say goodby to your rig.
I agree that it does not make sense, and that it is unacceptable. I was merely speculating (guessing) at the thought process behind the construction details. Mark C.
-
I agree that it does not make sense, and that it is unacceptable. I was merely speculating (guessing) at the thought process behind the construction details. Mark C.
I already sent the seller an email telling him it was dangerous and he could be liable for damages if the person he sells it to is injured or their sound and lighting equipment is damaged. Don't think he listened to me, but I took a shot.
-
I saw this ad today, I was tempted to buy it just to get it off the streets.
http://greensboro.craigslist.org/msg/4659990782.html (http://greensboro.craigslist.org/msg/4659990782.html)
I would happily give him $200 for it. I would then grab the 10/4 and the case and put it in my truck. Then I would watch the guys face as I backed over the disconnect with that same truck....
-
Yes, a POS and a disaster waiting to happen...
Which begs the question (somewhat)
Is there ANY PLACE in pro sound for a "home-made" distro...
I know there is the knowledge and expertise of MANY on this board who could design and implement a code-compliant SAFE distro.
I'm assuming the liability of using such a device would render the point moot, however.
frank
-
Is there ANY PLACE in pro sound for a "home-made" distro...
I know there is the knowledge and expertise of MANY on this board who could design and implement a code-compliant SAFE distro.
I'm assuming the liability of using such a device would render the point moot, however.
Can you build a safe, reliable home-made distro? Absolutely. There's no reason that you can't build it to the same level of safety and quality as a UL panel shop, observing all codes and best practices.
But it's the liability issue. If you have the panel inspected by an appropriate AHJ, your liability may be lower (but you may be in violation of your liability insurance and your claim may be denied). If you are a UL panel shop, you still have some liability, but you also have insurance that covers that.
So that leaves this question: is the money you save worth the financial risk in being sued? I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the United States, anyone can sue anyone else for anything. Some people will sue someone even if they know they will lose, simply to punish the other guy. The defendant, even if he wins or the case is dismissed, still has to pay a tremendous amount of money in court and attorney fees.
-
So that leaves this question: is the money you save worth the financial risk in being sued? I don't know about the rest of the world, but in the United States, anyone can sue anyone else for anything. Some people will sue someone even if they know they will lose, simply to punish the other guy. The defendant, even if he wins or the case is dismissed, still has to pay a tremendous amount of money in court and attorney fees.
So you spend the money and buy pre-made, and that is going to keep you out of court?
If you build it yourself and do it right you can argue you did your due diligence, right?
If you buy off the shelf, and it is substandard with a bogus UL label did you do your due diligence?
If someone gets seriously hurt at a gig, likely they will come looking for deep pockets no matter what you are using.
-
If someone gets seriously hurt at a gig, likely they will come looking for deep pockets no matter what you are using.
True, but a manufactured product versus a home-brew product generally provides a better defense. And since the manufacturer probably has deeper pockets than you, they are the bigger target.
-
Scary to think of how many boxes like that get used on a regular basis....
How do you stop it?
Don't go on Craigslist...
-
So you spend the money and buy pre-made, and that is going to keep you out of court?
If you build it yourself and do it right you can argue you did your due diligence, right?
If you buy off the shelf, and it is substandard with a bogus UL label did you do your due diligence?
If someone gets seriously hurt at a gig, likely they will come looking for deep pockets no matter what you are using.
This can be as depressing as it is enlightening...
Reading this Power Forum, recognizing the shallowness of one's own knowledge, lack of experience and the very real perils from the power, and more likely from the Powers that Be, it does make one just want to live out one's life in a vacuum bottle... Safe and Sound. however...
We soldier on, trying to recognize risks, and minimize the effects of those same risks, all without losing house and home, let alone the business.
One must be aware of the various levels of exposure (physical and legal), and choose (hopefully wisely) a level of risk they are willing to assume.
Everything Stephen writes here are real possibilities.
- pre-made from a "trusted" source with UL - things are misused or things go wrong.
- perfect with my due diligence - UL label trumps.
- "Counterfeit" or product with "bogus UL label" - should have bought from a reputable dealer
Small guys get swept up in the quest for deep pockets to sue, and can be financially ruinous.
Nothing is safe in and of itself - every day we deal with a layered approach to safety, both our physical selves and clients, and protection from Suit Sharks.
eg,
- colored wire insulation to help reduce wiring errors end to end
- More insulation
- box clamps
- boxes (except Austrailia...)
- cable staples
- approved outlets
- cover plates
- double insulated tools
No one of which would make a appliance safe, but each adds its own layer of protection.
Just like
- buying from a reputable dealer
- known brand
- UL label
- warranty registration (to know of recalls)
- Use according to instructions
Courts appreciate layers of efforts.
frank
-
Courts appreciate layers of efforts.
Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), courts (judges and juries) are not experts in the subjects of the cases brought before them. They depend on plaintiffs and defendants to educate them on the subject at hand. The success of that education often decides the case, and is the reason that expert witnesses are called.
For example, the defendant may truly be at fault due to his own stupidity. If the plaintiff's legal team successfully educates the jury as to the perils involved, but the defendant's legal team utterly fails to educate the jury as to the product quality, due diligence, and safety measures undertaken, as well as the defendant's own liability, there is high likelihood the case will be decided in the defendant's favor.
A jury comprised of electricians and audio engineers probably might have a preconceived bias in favor of the defendant in a liability case against a sound provider.
-
Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), courts (judges and juries) are not experts in the subjects of the cases brought before them. They depend on plaintiffs and defendants to educate them on the subject at hand. The success of that education often decides the case, and is the reason that expert witnesses are called.
Educating lawyers is also part of it. I've been an expert witness a few times on computer database corruption (see, I'm not just a pretty face who does live sound and AC Power) and found that the lawyers knew nearly nothing about the "facts" of the case. So I spent a full day educating them about what a "bit" or "byte" was, and how data could be corrupted accidentally or on purpose. I've got to admit, when they were doing their courtroom thing they really sounded like they understood what they were saying. But I knew these were just words to them and they did not have an in-depth understanding of the technology. I'm sure the same thing would happen in a courtroom deciding the merits of a lawsuit about a power problem. I find that most people (your average jury) have little or no understanding of voltage, current, grounding, bonding, shocks, electrocution, etc... They will depend on the lawyers and prosecutors to explain it all to them.