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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Tony Stubbs on February 09, 2014, 05:45:26 PM
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Hello all,
It's been nearly 14 years since I last visited this place, boy has it grown. Back then I owned a live sound and stage company. I had multiple club rigs 3 b rigs and one a circuit rig, plus various stage and lighting rigs. Desided to sell out for various reasons, now I find my self wating to get back int the biz on a small scale, sorta of a hobby kinda of thing, I love music and just can't seem to stay away. Anyway, I'm putting together a small club system, and have most of the gear narrowed down except for the mixer. Looking for a digital mizer in the sub 2000.00 range, 16 channel, with portability and expandability in mind. I see there are offerings from Presonus, Behringer, Allen Heath and a couple others in the price range. Looking for Scene recall, motorized faders and most if not all out board FOH gear built in. The system will perform multiple duties from small corp gigs to live music, nt many DJ type gigs I'll leave that to the real DJ's. So with the fferings out there what do you guys recomment for a small format digital console in the sub $2000.00 range?
Thank You and glad to be back...
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It's been nearly 14 years since I last visited this place
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Mac
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If you must have motorized faders that rules out the Presonus. Other than that, there are many users here that will sing the praises of all the other brands that you mentioned. I have used the Behringer X32 and X32R and they work great for me, others here like the Soundcraft Expression, the A&H Qu16, Mackie DL1608 and others. They all have pros and cons. You'll have to decide for yourself what features are important to you. Search the forum and you'll find plenty of discussion on these mixers, there is no 'clear cut' best thing out there for all situations. Plus there were some new and interesting new mixers shown at the recent NAMM show: Behringer X18, QSC TouchMix, etc.
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My vote in your price range would be for the X32 compact. I like the Soundcraft options as well, but only if you're using them for the built-in channel count. The lack of scribble strips is a non-starter for me.
Reasons I'd go X32 compact:
Scribble strips, motorized faders.
Same processing as the full X32.
V2 firmware will put 16 input channels on the surface instead of 8 in and 8 masters.
Pretty much everything you need built-in including a 32x32 USB recording interface.
Expandable to 32x16 if your needs grow with a relatively inexpensive stagebox. Will do 22x14 with just the XLR and TRS connections built-in.
Not dependent on a tablet for control (I own and enjoy the X32 Rack but forgetting my iPad is a nightmare scenario)
Easy linking to another console over AES50 for sharing inputs on FOH/MON duty if you ever needed.
More processing built-in than many of the competitive options in the price range.
V2 firmware adds one of the more flexible scene/snapshot recall capabilities among the competition.
Reasons I wouldn't go X32 compact:
Only if you can't tolerate the Behringer name. I haven't put my hands on the QU desks, but the build quality feels just as good or better than the other competition in the $2k range.
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Tony, I own a couple of Behringer X32 mixers and an X32 Rack. That being said, you might want to consider the Yamaha 01v96 (2) or (VCM). They are built like tanks, they're small and portable and by adding a 4 channel digital EQ you have everything in a small, portable package for under $1,600 - $1,800. Neither of these are the newest or fanciest boards around, however, they sound as good as anything else in that class and offer expandability down the road. ;) We still use the 01v96 (2) with an 8 preamp for many corporate events. I have always like them and they still make me money 6 years or so down the road.
Bill 8)
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I recently picked up my first digital board…Presonus 24.4.2
Great mixer and pretty simple to get acquainted with. Took me only a couple hours or so to really understand the inner workings of it all. Does everything I need it to do..save scenes, on-board compression, graphic EQ, effects, etc. The bundled software is great too if you don't already have a DAW that you're working with. The 16 channel version has a smaller footprint, and you can link two of the board together to get more channels for your larger jobs. No motorized faders, but that wasn't a priority of mine. Some will love the Presonus boards, others will look the other way.
For me, I'm quite happy with it and you should be able to get the 16 channel version with a road case and keep within your budget.
Note, they recently released the "AI" incarnation of their StudioLive boards..for me the few added features were not worth the extra $1000. The original versions are still available at most places and the prices are slashed to make room for the AI boards.
Just one man's opinion..good luck
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I think you should add the Soundcraft SI to your list. It is one of the easier boards for making the transition from analog, yet still has many features including the ones you listed.
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Hello all,
It's been nearly 14 years since I last visited this place, boy has it grown. Back then I owned a live sound and stage company. I had multiple club rigs 3 b rigs and one a circuit rig, plus various stage and lighting rigs. Desided to sell out for various reasons, now I find my self wating to get back int the biz on a small scale, sorta of a hobby kinda of thing, I love music and just can't seem to stay away. Anyway, I'm putting together a small club system, and have most of the gear narrowed down except for the mixer. Looking for a digital mizer in the sub 2000.00 range, 16 channel, with portability and expandability in mind. I see there are offerings from Presonus, Behringer, Allen Heath and a couple others in the price range. Looking for Scene recall, motorized faders and most if not all out board FOH gear built in. The system will perform multiple duties from small corp gigs to live music, nt many DJ type gigs I'll leave that to the real DJ's. So with the fferings out there what do you guys recomment for a small format digital console in the sub $2000.00 range?
Thank You and glad to be back...
if motorized faders are not a "must have", I've been very happy with my Presonus 16.4.2 (not the AI model) and folks on here are praising the A&H QU-16.
The A&H would be my choice if I was in the market for a 16-ch digital mixer. YMMV.
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I think that the X32 Compact is the best option overall.
Here are the items where the other mixers fall short.
Soundcraft Expression Si. This desk has great sound (as do all these mixers), but if you want to record multi-track and do virtual sound checks you should look elsewhere. The strength of this mixer lies in its easy to use interface and its ability to expand to 66 inputs (the most in its class). It also does not have LCD scribble strips.... but does have something called "fader glow" which does help.
Allen & Heath Qu-16: Great multi-track recording built in, but can not be expanded beyond 16 channels. My biggest beef with this mixer is the lack of LCD scribble strips and the tiny 3 LED channel VU meters. If you want a rack mount vs console solution, then this is my number one choice. The X32 Producer also lacks scribble strips and without them the ease of use and layout of the Qu-16 wins out.
Go give em a try. They are all 3 really nice digital mixers.
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I will have to add my support for the soundcraft. It sounds incredible, it is easy to walk up to and mix. The addition of the multi-digital card gives you 32 in and out to usb or firewire plus 8 adat channels. Our clients have been very happy.
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if motorized faders are not a "must have", I've been very happy with my Presonus 16.4.2 (not the AI model) and folks on here are praising the A&H QU-16.
The A&H would be my choice if I was in the market for a 16-ch digital mixer. YMMV.
+1 for the A&H QU16 - purchased mine in November last year and found the transition from analogue pretty easy. I love the A & H workflow and the big seller was being able to record directly onto a small hard drive - download into pro-tools - DONE. Also allows for easy virtual soundcheck. Motorized faders have a quality feel to them. Easy ipad connection - so I don't even bother with the snake anymore so saved me money upgrading to digital snake. Suits me needs perfectly. No expansion potential though but you said 16 channels.....
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+100 on the X32 Compact.. It gives you 16 x 8 right out of the box and if you ever need to grow, just add an S16 stage box to double that.
It cost less than the 01v96, sounds better, has more & better FX, and is easier to learn if it's your first digital mixer.
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I wish there was some sort of "forum filter" so that someone seeking advice would know if they were getting it from someone with actual experience with the product or someone who is just regurgitating info they have read on the web. There is so much more to a mixing board than its spec sheet!
Those commenting on equipment they actually use have credibility with me, but some of these posts that are merely laundry lists of features are really not that valuable. We are all capable of performing Google searches!
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I wish there was some sort of "forum filter" so that someone seeking advice would know if they were getting it from someone with actual experience with the product or someone who is just regurgitating info they have read on the web. There is so much more to a mixing board than its spec sheet!
+1
FWIW, my digital mixer path was :01V96v2 > 24.4.2 > X32. X32 smokes both of those, at least for me.
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+1
FWIW, my digital mixer path was :01V96v2 > 24.4.2 > X32. X32 smokes both of those, at least for me.
Mine was Soundcraft Spirit328->Presonus 24.4.2->Behringer X32. Same conclusion as you.
M
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I know you guys love your X32's, but don't forget the OP's stated budget.
Oops, The best price I could find on the board I recommended is $2100.00 - I'm over budget too!
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you might want to consider the Yamaha 01v96 (2) or (VCM). They are built like tanks, they're small and portable and by adding a 4 channel digital EQ you have everything in a small, portable package for under $1,600 - $1,800.
Current version of 01v96 is the 01V96i with a street price of $2400 and that gives him only 12 mic inputs. He'll have to spend another $180 to get up to his required 16, which brings him to $580 over budget.
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Current version of 01v96 is the 01V96i with a street price of $2400 and that gives him only 12 mic inputs. He'll have to spend another $180 to get up to his required 16, which brings him to $580 over budget.
The 01V96i can be had for $1,895 new.
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I know you guys love your X32's, but don't forget the OP's stated budget.
Oops, The best price I could find on the board I recommended is $2100.00 - I'm over budget too!
X32 Compact just dropped to $1999. If he wanted to go to the iPad only route, the X32 Rack just dropped to $1199.
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+1
FWIW, my digital mixer path was :01V96v2 > 24.4.2 > X32. X32 smokes both of those, at least for me.
I'm headed to GC and Sam ash this weekend to try and get a little hands on of a few mixers. I see after reading the posts and what I have read that Behringer must have come a long way since I was in the biz. Back then they sold alot of different stuff but I always considered them sorta of, need it now, in a pinch, disposable gear, similar to harbor frieght tools. But it seems as if they have really made an effort to take a few steps up over the years. I really like the feature set of the X32, but worry about reliabillity. I have owned many Allen Heath consoles, everything from Mix wizzards to thier ML series and all were great desks. Owed a couple Soundcrafts back in the late 70's and early 80's. The old ones were great, but the newer consoles 80's models, seemed to me they lost something, never were the same. Man I remeber way back when a Kelsey was state of the art or the Large knob Peaveys where what everyone was using. Anyway the landscape has really changed in the last 14 years and find myself spending hours just trying to catch up, I really good with computers and software so I'm sure the digital consoles won't be too much of a challenge. But now days there is so much new gear to choose from, all of with is much better than years ago it's hard to choose, I guess I'll just have to jump in the water somewhere and hope the sharks don't get me. 12" inch boxes have also been a real challenge also. Seems as if everyone makes one and even the name sake companys have so many different models it's mind boogling at times. But I have narrowed that down to two boxes avalible locally to test the QSC kw122 and the Yamaha DSR112. I have always been a heavey EV fan but they have so many different 12 inch boxes t choose from, I finally gave up and threw in the towel. Subs have been another rodeo, geewizz how many powered single 18 subs can we have to choose from, oh well another story.. I miss my 8 Servo drive subs, to me nothing can stand with them when properly adjusted and setup, they kill small animals at any yardage. I guess I'll get flamed for that but oh well.
Thanks guys
Tony
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I have always been a heavey EV fan but they have so many different 12 inch boxes t choose from, I finally gave up and threw in the towel. Subs have been another rodeo, geewizz how many powered single 18 subs can we have to choose from,
Seems like you're the kind of guy who can catch up on those 14 years. Any of the mixers mentioned will work for you. None of them suck. Just figure out the feature set you want and the price you can comfortably pay and you'll have a few good options to choose from.
Just a quick word about speakers. Go Powered - all the amplification you need and processing built into the boxes makes it easier to carry around and takes the guesswork out of a lot of the set up. Buy top / sub
boxes that are made to work together. The crossovers are built in and correctly set up... And in most cases, if you buy a top that sits on the sub via pole, there is time-alignment built into the system.
Ask questions about anything you're unsure about. There's lots of knowledge on this forum to tap into. Learn from our mistakes ;-)
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I'd go for an X32 Compact over an O1V96 for certain, but one can get clean used Yammies for a fair bit less than new - same goes for used Presonus (since the X32 family came out). (I might have some Yammies.)
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Current version of 01v96 is the 01V96i with a street price of $2400 and that gives him only 12 mic inputs. He'll have to spend another $180 to get up to his required 16, which brings him to $580 over budget.
James, I was thinking used 01v96 (2). The board in great shape can be had for less than $1,100. Add a used Presonus 8 channel pre amp for another $350 and you have a great small and portable system for about $1,500. I should have been clear that I was talking used and in great shape.
If it were me and I was the one mixing, I would get the Behringer X32 Rack and an iPad and be done with it. Cost including the iPad +- $1,850 and you can expand to 32 channels down the road for another $750.
Bill ;)
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James, I was thinking used 01v96 (2). The board in great shape can be had for less than $1,100. Add a used Presonus 8 channel pre amp for another $350 and you have a great small and portable system for about $1,500. I should have been clear that I was talking used and in great shape.
If it were me and I was the one mixing, I would get the Behringer X32 Rack and an iPad and be done with it. Cost including the iPad +- $1,850 and you can expand to 32 channels down the road for another $750.
Bill ;)
Sure.. The OP didn't say whether he wants new or used.
If bang for buck is important, he should consider the Behringer ADA8000 for the 8 channel preamp. NEW price is $179, used probably in the $100 range. It has the added bonus of 8 XLR outputs, something really useful since the 01V96v2 has only 6 outputs.
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Along the same lines as the OP's need for a digital mixer...
If one was "mixing from stage" (I know.. don't shoot me!) and the 5-piece band was currently using a Mackie CR16 (4 Aux's - 2 for wedge mixes, 2 for effects) but needing to go all IEM (5 AUX's needed for individual mixes) and be able to rack mount the console in same rack as amps, DSP, etc. what do you guys think would be the best mixer (same budget as OP) ??
16 channels is enough.. band is regional level and plays roughly 70:30 own to house PA ratio.
Intent would be to have IEM mix and FOH combined in same console. When running their own PA, mixer runs IEM's and FOH. When using house PA, house split is fed into SAME console for IEM mix only.
- Most venues played refuse to allow an FOH desk out front, or snake runs around dance floor or over the top. Since the band would have to have a BE mixing from stage in those venues anyway, the decision was made (before I arrived) to do it themselves and not have one.
- Band leader owns PA, mixes from stage and plays guitar.
Interested in your thoughts..
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Along the same lines as the OP's need for a digital mixer...
If one was "mixing from stage" (I know.. don't shoot me!) and the 5-piece band was currently using a Mackie CR16 (4 Aux's - 2 for wedge mixes, 2 for effects) but needing to go all IEM (5 AUX's needed for individual mixes) and be able to rack mount the console in same rack as amps, DSP, etc. what do you guys think would be the best mixer (same budget as OP) ??
16 channels is enough.. band is regional level and plays roughly 70:30 own to house PA ratio.
Intent would be to have IEM mix and FOH combined in same console. When running their own PA, mixer runs IEM's and FOH. When using house PA, house split is fed into SAME console for IEM mix only.
That brings us back to the X32 Rack. 16x8 out of the box, expandable to 32x16
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That brings us back to the X32 Rack. 16x8 out of the box, expandable to 32x16
thanks... does anyone know how reliable the ipad interface is?
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thanks... does anyone know how reliable the ipad interface is?
An "iPad interface" is as reliable as the router that connects it to the mixer. I've had no problems with wireless connectivity with my X32, X32 Core, or X32 Rack.
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thanks... does anyone know how reliable the ipad interface is?
While I have way less time using it than most other x32 users on here, I have had no problems with it on my iPad 1(which is pretty terrible at running most apps; DON'T get one) connected to the mixer via a cheap(~$30) Netgear router. This, however, is in a church that is devoid of other WiFi devices/networks. The iPad 1 runs the x32 app pretty good considering how slow it is and I haven't had it crash(a common occurrence for most other apps on my iPad) though it runs kinda slow. I figure if it runs good on the iPad 1 it's excellent on the iPad 2+.
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I've been using the Mackie DL1608 very successfully for just over a year now. The board works perfectly for me, mixing small club bands, and the portability is unmatched.
Regarding speakers, the KW's and Yamaha DSR speakers are excellent - I've used both. I prefer the sound of the 15's, over subs, but others here prefer the 12's. My favorite speaker in this price range are the JBL PRX600 series (discontinued). I would recommend the new 700 series but there have been issues with these (reliability, noisy fan). And I know what you mean about the EV line! I just sat down the other day and made some notes regarding the various models of powered & passive boxes.
Good luck and let us know what you end up with!
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An "iPad interface" is as reliable as the router that connects it to the mixer. I've had no problems with wireless connectivity with my X32, X32 Core, or X32 Rack.
Agreed. I have been using an iPad with my Presonus SL for almost two years. 100% reliable so far! I started out with Belkin router which was great, but switched to an Apple Airport Express because it is smaller, no wall wart and works as well if not better.
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thanks... does anyone know how reliable the ipad interface is?
We have been using the iPad interface with the X32 for over a year without a single drop out. We started with the Lynksys E3000 routers and have moved to the Apple Airport Express so that we can also stream music from the iPad to the router for breaks and background. We have done over 140 jobs last year with the iPad interface and no problems.
If you are going iPad go X32 rack for scaleability down the road.
Bill :)
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We have been using the iPad interface with the X32 for over a year without a single drop out. We started with the Lynksys E3000 routers and have moved to the Apple Airport Express so that we can also stream music from the iPad to the router for breaks and background. We have done over 140 jobs last year with the iPad interface and no problems.
If you are going iPad go X32 rack for scaleability down the road.
Bill :)
So the X32 models don't have built in Wifi and require routers (is what I'm hearing)?
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So the X32 models don't have built in Wifi and require routers (is what I'm hearing)?
Yes, the router is an add-on that you buy, not just Behringer but everyone else too.
The Behringer X18 which is scheduled for release late fall will be a 16x8 iPad only mixer with built in WiFi. Street price will be about $800.
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So the X32 models don't have built in Wifi and require routers (is what I'm hearing)?
No, they don't have built in WiFi, but I don't see that as a problem. I imagine that by using an external router/WAP you can get better performance than with something that could be built in.
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No, they don't have built in WiFi, but I don't see that as a problem. I imagine that by using an external router/WAP you can get better performance than with something that could be built in.
+100, wifi should be external where you can locate it for better LOS, Like up on a mic stand. It's also better off being upgrade able.
Steve, I'd look at the options available for remote IEM control. On my X32 rack I regularly have 5 users connected to tweak their own mixes. iPhone and soon Android apps are available and pretty simple to setup/use. Presonus' Wheel of me is kind of cool, but I prefer the Behringer's 4 MCA's which are essentially per-user groups to control multiple channels. On an iPhone 5 it even works like MIDAS' pop groups when turned sideways.
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Yes, the router is an add-on that you buy, not just Behringer but everyone else too.
James, thanks.. I have run them with my Presonus 16.4.2 (since Win7 builtin networking on the laptop is unreliable).
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+100, wifi should be external where you can locate it for better LOS, Like up on a mic stand. It's also better off being upgrade able.
Steve, I'd look at the options available for remote IEM control. On my X32 rack I regularly have 5 users connected to tweak their own mixes. iPhone and soon Android apps are available and pretty simple to setup/use. Presonus' Wheel of me is kind of cool, but I prefer the Behringer's 4 MCA's which are essentially per-user groups to control multiple channels. On an iPhone 5 it even works like MIDAS' pop groups when turned sideways.
George, thanks.. that was the info I was looking for. I have a Presonus 16.4.2 that I have mixed via iPad (plus router, etc.) It's cool. I have the Behringer iPad app installed, but no x32 on the other end!
Knowing that its stable (with attached router) for 5 folks is good to know.
This band (except drummer) is already wireless inbound, and looking at moving to IEM's soon.
Does anyone know if 5 iPads (or equivalent) running own mixes being completely wireless is likely to cause drop outs, overlap, or other interference in small to mid-size venues?
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Does anyone know if 5 iPads (or equivalent) running own mixes being completely wireless is likely to cause drop outs, overlap, or other interference in small to mid-size venues?
I've run six iPads, mine plus each band member for monitor mixes, with my Presonus-no problem.
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I've run six iPads, mine plus each band member for monitor mixes, with my Presonus-no problem.
Thanks for the heads up!
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I love my PreSonus Studio Live 16.0.2 because it's compact, can save scenes, edit presets, make templates, and best of all...you can run sound from stage if necessary; all you need is a laptop connected to the desk via firewire and an iPad. Even if you can run FOH, the iPad control via SL Remote gives you the freedom to move around and tweak the mix from anywhere in the venue. All the Studio Live series mixers share the same functionality and also allow scalability.
Choices, choices, choices.
Mike
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Even if you can run FOH, the iPad control via SL Remote gives you the freedom to move around and tweak the mix from anywhere in the venue
This is standard with most digital mixers now.
However, if i remember correctly, the Presonus does not have motorised faders. How does it adjust remotely and how does it set fader levels on scene recall?
Steve.
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I love my PreSonus Studio Live 16.0.2 because it's compact, can save scenes, edit presets, make templates, and best of all...you can run sound from stage if necessary; all you need is a laptop connected to the desk via firewire and an iPad. Even if you can run FOH, the iPad control via SL Remote gives you the freedom to move around and tweak the mix from anywhere in the venue. All the Studio Live series mixers share the same functionality and also allow scalability.
Choices, choices, choices.
Mike
Mike, I agree that the PreSonus SL is a nice board and easy to use. We used the 24.4.2 for about a year. What I found lacking on was that it didn't have motorized faders, no recallable preamps so that if you are doing different bands you can recall everything and it only has two internal effects where as I always setup four. I use one for drum/instrument verb, two for vocal verb, thee for delay and four for tap delay. Those are my only complaints about the SL series mixer.
Bill
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This is standard with most digital mixers now.
However, if i remember correctly, the Presonus does not have motorised faders. How does it adjust remotely and how does it set fader levels on scene recall?
Steve.
Steve,
The SL consoles have a "fader locate" feature to show you where your faders were the last time you saved a scene. Since I'm with a 4 piece band right now that likes to maximize individual profits by not having a engineer to pay, I run sound from the stage and hardly ever use the faders on the console. I just simply recall the scene that I saved from the last gig at a particular venue and tweak it with an iPad from FOH. The main drawback to the SL mixers is...the inability to save the preamp gain structure. One thing that I talked the band into was a production rehearsal to establish a master template. We setup all of our gear at an empty club on a Sunday with the mixer at FOH instead of on stage and started with the kick and went from there. We didn't have to battle the clock or some drunk who wants to be "helpful". At the end of the day I had a master template for every input with baseline preamp gain structure. Now all we have to do for a show is power up the gear, recall the template, and sound check. 1 hour from load in to sound check complete. Love it. Having 45 mins to an hr to chill out before a show makes the night go really well. At the last gig we played, the faders on the mixer never moved from the infinity position. Some of my fellow engineers around town are really impressed with the A&H QU16 with automated faders so I am considering crossing over.
Be good!
Mike
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The SL consoles have a "fader locate" feature to show you where your faders were the last time you saved a scene.
Thanks for replying.
So when you do a recall, the levels stay at the recall setting until you move a fader?
Sounds just the same as my Line 6 Flextone amplifier works. When you change presets, the controls are wherever they were set before and bear no relation to actual settings but as soon as you move one, it becomes active. The Line 6 doesn't have the advantage of indicators though!
Is it just the faders which work this way or all the other controls too?
Steve.
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Thanks for replying.
So when you do a recall, the levels stay at the recall setting until you move a fader?
Sounds just the same as my Line 6 Flextone amplifier works. When you change presets, the controls are wherever they were set before and bear no relation to actual settings but as soon as you move one, it becomes active. The Line 6 doesn't have the advantage of indicators though!
Is it just the faders which work this way or all the other controls too?
Steve.
Steve...
All these questions and more are answered in the PDF of the manual:
http://www.presonus.com/products/StudioLive-AI-Series/downloads
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Thanks for replying.
So when you do a recall, the levels stay at the recall setting until you move a fader?
Sounds just the same as my Line 6 Flextone amplifier works. When you change presets, the controls are wherever they were set before and bear no relation to actual settings but as soon as you move one, it becomes active. The Line 6 doesn't have the advantage of indicators though!
Is it just the faders which work this way or all the other controls too?
It's only the faders. IIRC, you have to move the fader to where it's supposed to be before it changes.
I've done a bit of work with the SL desks and they work well enough as either a desk or a digital mix system you control from an iPad. What they suck at IMO is transitioning between the two. The lack of motorized faders was the big reason for that. It's the thing I love about the x32 over the SL. I can mix on the iPad and come back to the desk and it's all exactly where it should be.
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It can also be (some of) the rotary controls - you select this in the console's setup menu. (I always set them to No).
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Steve...
All these questions and more are answered in the PDF of the manual:
Thanks. I did look through the manual but didn't really find the answer. Sometimes it's better to get a response from someone who actually uses it - as has happened!
Steve.