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Title: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 11, 2015, 10:14:25 PM
Hello! I was recently "tricked" into redoing a large pool complex PA system for a friend's company (they said they wanted me to fix ONE non working speaker). Anyhow, I've had experience installing wall speakers for indoor use. I am not really the best person to ask for weatherproof speakers. The company, a hotel, says they want to keep the current infrastructure, ie don't damage the walls. Their current system consists of 58 Atlas D161-8 speakers built into various walls and pillars. The only problem is, whoever installed them did not use any sort of weather protection on the drivers and they are roached, I would say between 85-97% of the drivers don't work, sound very poor, or are torn.

The pool complex is located in a desert in California where the temperature often reaches 100+. The speakers are directly exposed to sunlight and rain water with no overhang of any kind.

My question is, are there any 8" very weatherproof speaker drivers that you would recommend for this application?

Any help would be appreciated!
These are pictures of what I am working with here, if you're interested: http://imgur.com/a/RRvo5
Thanks!
-Mitch
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC on August 11, 2015, 11:33:04 PM
Voice or music? Since you have Atlas- Atlas makes this model- http://www.atlassound.com/flanged-horn-loudspeaker-with-25v707v100v-15w-transformer

Also   http://www.atlassound.com/fa138t167   for music.

-Hal
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 12, 2015, 12:45:53 AM
Voice or music? Since you have Atlas- Atlas makes this model- http://www.atlassound.com/flanged-horn-loudspeaker-with-25v707v100v-15w-transformer
Also   http://www.atlassound.com/fa138t167   for music.

Both voice and music. It is preferable that the music sounds decent I do not think the flanged horn would work for the music aspect. The speakers MUST get loud enough to be heard over the sounds of the pool complex (kids screaming, water splashing, waterfalls) for emergency announcements such as pool evacuations. The background music will not get very loud at all. I think the 8" coaxial may work. I want to explore some other options first, if I cannot find anything, I'll go back to the coaxial.

Thanks for your reply


Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Marcus Baeumler on August 12, 2015, 05:40:30 AM
One Systems comes to mind: They have specialized on weather proof speakers.

Maybe this one fits your needs?
http://onesystems.com/products/injection-molded/108cim-lightweight-copolymer-based-all-weather-loudspeaker-system/
Available as 70/100V version as well.

Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 12, 2015, 11:41:37 AM
What sort of budget are you looking at?
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 12, 2015, 12:06:29 PM
What sort of budget are you looking at?

A budget of around $2,000. However, the hotel said I could use a little more if needed. I already pulled all new cable through so the budget right now is $1500. The amplifier is a 100w University Sound MA1005B (it's a 70v system) but it's in good nick and won't need be to be replaced. No processing is needed as this system will only be used for BGM and emergency announcements.

I would say the biggest expense of this project will be acquiring durable enough drivers.

Thanks for your reply, Ivan.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 12, 2015, 12:55:40 PM
A budget of around $2,000. However, the hotel said I could use a little more if needed. I already pulled all new cable through so the budget right now is $1500. The amplifier is a 100w University Sound MA1005B (it's a 70v system) but it's in good nick and won't need be to be replaced. No processing is needed as this system will only be used for BGM and emergency announcements.

I would say the biggest expense of this project will be acquiring durable enough drivers.

Thanks for your reply, Ivan.
"BEST" and 58 weather proof 8" coax drivers for $1500 (I am assuming install is extra?) do not go together.

You are looking at cheap car stuff in that range.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 12, 2015, 12:58:30 PM
A budget of around $2,000. However, the hotel said I could use a little more if needed. I already pulled all new cable through so the budget right now is $1500. The amplifier is a 100w University Sound MA1005B (it's a 70v system) but it's in good nick and won't need be to be replaced. No processing is needed as this system will only be used for BGM and emergency announcements.

I would say the biggest expense of this project will be acquiring durable enough drivers.

Thanks for your reply, Ivan.
You do realize that hooking up 58 drivers to a 100 watt amps is around 1.5 watt/driver (assuming normal overhead).

1.5 watts is not going to get much over screaming kids or be able to make loud enough emergency announcements.

I HIGHLY suggest an amp upgrade as well-but there goes the budget
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 12, 2015, 01:45:03 PM
You do realize that hooking up 58 drivers to a 100 watt amps is around 1.5 watt/driver (assuming normal overhead).

1.5 watts is not going to get much over screaming kids or be able to make loud enough emergency announcements.

I HIGHLY suggest an amp upgrade as well-but there goes the budget

If you feel like an amp upgrade is necessary, then we will do it. The thing is, due to the sheer amount of speakers, you are never really more than 20 feet from a speaker. However, I will purchase the speakers and adjust the amplifier, if needed.
 
"BEST" and 58 weather proof 8" coax drivers for $1500 (I am assuming install is extra?) do not go together.

You are looking at cheap car stuff in that range.

$1500 is what the guy said the budget was, not the hotel. The hotel is owned by Marriott so I feel like I could negotiate for a higher budget if I needed it.

I am installing it for very little as it is a fairly simple job.

Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Scott Carneval on August 12, 2015, 04:27:17 PM
If you feel like an amp upgrade is necessary, then we will do it. The thing is, due to the sheer amount of speakers, you are never really more than 20 feet from a speaker. However, I will purchase the speakers and adjust the amplifier, if needed.
 
$1500 is what the guy said the budget was, not the hotel. The hotel is owned by Marriott so I feel like I could negotiate for a higher budget if I needed it.

I am installing it for very little as it is a fairly simple job.

You're replacing 58 speakers and the budget for the entire job is $1500? Something doesn't add up here.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 12, 2015, 04:30:52 PM
You're replacing 58 speakers and the budget for the entire job is $1500? Something doesn't add up here.

The original call was to replace some wiring and only a few speakers for $1500. After I did some inspecting of the equipment and the area, they said to just replace all of them and the wiring. They did NOT mention any change to the budget, but I would imagine they are flexible price wise. 
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 12, 2015, 04:36:49 PM
So multiply "wiring and a few" by the appropriate number x $2,000 and give them the figures...
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Jason Lavoie on August 12, 2015, 04:46:53 PM
Hello! I was recently "tricked" into redoing a large pool complex PA system for a friend's company (they said they wanted me to fix ONE non working speaker). Anyhow, I've had experience installing wall speakers for indoor use. I am not really the best person to ask for weatherproof speakers. The company, a hotel, says they want to keep the current infrastructure, ie don't damage the walls. Their current system consists of 58 Atlas D161-8 speakers built into various walls and pillars. The only problem is, whoever installed them did not use any sort of weather protection on the drivers and they are roached, I would say between 85-97% of the drivers don't work, sound very poor, or are torn.

The pool complex is located in a desert in California where the temperature often reaches 100+. The speakers are directly exposed to sunlight and rain water with no overhang of any kind.

My question is, are there any 8" very weatherproof speaker drivers that you would recommend for this application?

Any help would be appreciated! I would be willing to supply pictures of the location if wanted.
Thanks!
-Mitch

In my experience weatherproof and flush-mount doesn't really exist unless you make a custom setup with a weatherproof speaker behind a grille.

How long did the old ones last? maybe for their budget you're best off replacing same with same if they are ok with having to replace them regularly.

Jason
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 12, 2015, 04:59:12 PM
How long did the old ones last? maybe for their budget you're best off replacing same with same if they are ok with having to replace them regularly.

The old speakers were installed in the early 2000s and were plagued with issues ever since then (so I've been told). Worse comes to worst, I'll just replace the drivers with the same model.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 12, 2015, 06:58:22 PM
The old speakers were installed in the early 2000s and were plagued with issues ever since then (so I've been told). Worse comes to worst, I'll just replace the drivers with the same model.
Out of curiosity-what IS the current model #?
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 12, 2015, 07:06:51 PM
Out of curiosity-what IS the current model #?

The current model number is D161-8 by Atlas
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on August 12, 2015, 07:14:11 PM
In my experience weatherproof and flush-mount doesn't really exist unless you make a custom setup with a weatherproof speaker behind a grille.

How long did the old ones last? maybe for their budget you're best off replacing same with same if they are ok with having to replace them regularly.

Jason

My EV cabinets with the "outdoor" full grill have a sonically transparent, nylon-like insert behind the grill which catches and diverts rain water/spray from contacting the speaker cones.  Some similar approach might help.  That and periodic silicone spray...
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Lee Douglas on August 12, 2015, 07:26:05 PM
The old speakers were installed in the early 2000s and were plagued with issues ever since then (so I've been told). Worse comes to worst, I'll just replace the drivers with the same model.

Whomever did the original installation should be shot.  The original driver was/is a "treated paper" cone material.  DO NOT replace these with the same driver, or you'll be on the hook for another round of failures. 

If it's a cost driven issue, I would find an inexpensive coaxial speaker with a polypropylene cone and a butyl surround that has a 70V transformer that will tap low enough to work the amplification you have or you're going to get.  I've installed many speakers of this type that are still working today in climates ranging from -10 to +110F.  The reason they still work is because they were placed in soffits and other areas the protect them from direct exposure to the elements.  In this installation these will last considerably longer than the original speakers, but are eventually destined to fail as well.  I think you have two options; redesign the system, relocating the speakers to better locations using better equipment and appropriately sized amp(s) and having them patch the old speakers, or replace the existing drivers in the existing location using a better speakers (and amps) and let them know that these will not last and should be considered expendable, will need to be replaced and should be budgeted for.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 12, 2015, 08:20:57 PM
Whomever did the original installation should be shot.  The original driver was/is a "treated paper" cone material.  DO NOT replace these with the same driver, or you'll be on the hook for another round of failures. 

If it's a cost driven issue, I would find an inexpensive coaxial speaker with a polypropylene cone and a butyl surround that has a 70V transformer that will tap low enough to work the amplification you have or you're going to get.  I've installed many speakers of this type that are still working today in climates ranging from -10 to +110F.  The reason they still work is because they were placed in soffits and other areas the protect them from direct exposure to the elements.  In this installation these will last considerably longer than the original speakers, but are eventually destined to fail as well.  I think you have two options; redesign the system, relocating the speakers to better locations using better equipment and appropriately sized amp(s) and having them patch the old speakers, or replace the existing drivers in the existing location using a better speakers (and amps) and let them know that these will not last and should be considered expendable, will need to be replaced and should be budgeted for.

I was thinking that. There aren't very many paper products that can withstand the elements like that for that long. This leads to replacing the drivers with something more durable, just as you said. But, of course, they will eventually meet a fate similar to that of the paper drivers.

For a relatively low-maintenance non-recessed system, I was thinking something along the lines of the Community WET-Series, RCF P-Series, or JBL Control Series. All of these speaker lines are quite pricey even for their base model 8" speakers.

There would be quite a few advantages to having one of these three speaker lines, more output, less speakers needed, and less maintenance. Some of the cons of having one of these would of course be the cost. Each of the speakers I was thinking about ranges $700-$950 each. Another con would not be enough areas to mount the speakers. A large sum of the current speakers are recessed in a cinder block wall which is about 6 feet tall.
 
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on August 13, 2015, 02:14:00 AM
I am sure your customer knows 58 costs more than a couple? I assume it is a full service Marriott, JW or Renaissance property?  In my experience they don't cut corners.  12 to 15k is the number and you need a larger amp.  I would reuse the amp and break it up into zones.

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 13, 2015, 10:32:36 AM
I am sure your customer knows 58 costs more than a couple? I assume it is a full service Marriott, JW or Renaissance property?  In my experience they don't cut corners.  12 to 15k is the number and you need a larger amp.  I would reuse the amp and break it up into zones.

This is a JW Marriott property. Along with the main hotel, the property also has several villas with several communal pools to accompany the villas. There is one large communal pool complex and that's the one I am working on. Marriott has their own company that would normally do this kind of installation (probably the same people who did the previous installation) but they would not have been able to come out to the desert and look, assess, and work on it until February.

You say 12-15k? If I decide on which drivers or speakers I should replace the old ones with, and I will price a suitable amplifier accordingly. Then Ill calculate the total and discuss this with management. But I feel like you're around the right numbers.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Robert Healey on August 13, 2015, 11:23:52 AM
You say 12-15k? If I decide on which drivers or speakers I should replace the old ones with, and I will price a suitable amplifier accordingly. Then Ill calculate the total and discuss this with management. But I feel like you're around the right numbers.

12-15k sounds a little low to me. I'd attempt to use the existing conduit and boxes but replace the existing speakers with a weatherized surface mount like this guy: http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/106075-Community-R25-94Z?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=googleps&gclid=CLCr56uupscCFUWPHwodzG8Heg which looks like it's about 30k in materials for speakers. Probably looking at more like 50-60k total if you really still need 58 speakers - probably will require coverage modeling to determine the final number.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Scott Hofmann on August 13, 2015, 12:36:16 PM
Marine grade?
https://www.rocktheboatmarinestereo.com/html/32294.html
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 13, 2015, 01:10:10 PM
The current model number is D161-8 by Atlas
Those seem to be selling for around $55 ea.

You must be getting a REALLY GOOD DEAL in order to be able to replace 58 of them for $1500, and be able to make a profit on it-AND assuming your labor is extra.

Either that-or my math is really off------------
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 13, 2015, 03:09:41 PM
You must be getting a REALLY GOOD DEAL in order to be able to replace 58 of them for $1500, and be able to make a profit on it-AND assuming your labor is extra.

Ivan,
As stated before, that $2000 (after my cut) was how much they quoted me to replace only a few (3-4) speakers that were completely dead. After inspecting and confronting management about the condition of their system and how the condition was much worse than previously thought. They asked if I would fix the system. I (of course) said yes, but they did not mention a new number.

I am currently waiting on a phone call from them in order to discuss new numbers.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 13, 2015, 05:18:32 PM
Ivan,
As stated before, that $2000 (after my cut) was how much they quoted me to replace only a few (3-4) speakers that were completely dead. After inspecting and confronting management about the condition of their system and how the condition was much worse than previously thought. They asked if I would fix the system. I (of course) said yes, but they did not mention a new number.

I am currently waiting on a phone call from them in order to discuss new numbers.
I'm sorry-but that did not appear to be the case in the posts.

It "appeared to me" that you were trying to replace all of them for the original price.

So now it appears as if you have $1500 ish to replace 4 (or speakers). 

THat is a completely different ball game-so to speak
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 14, 2015, 09:32:21 PM
So now it appears as if you have $1500 ish to replace 4 (or speakers). 
THat is a completely different ball game-so to speak

Oh I apologize. I thought that was understood. I spoke with management and we agreed on 15k to the entire pool system, which is quite a lot more than just replacing 4 damaged speakers, which was what the $1500 budget was previously for.

Now it's only a matter of deciding what I am going to do with the system. I have some ideas and I will run it past them see what they think about it.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 15, 2015, 09:04:45 AM
Oh I apologize. I thought that was understood. I spoke with management and we agreed on 15k to the entire pool system, which is quite a lot more than just replacing 4 damaged speakers, which was what the $1500 budget was previously for.

Now it's only a matter of deciding what I am going to do with the system. I have some ideas and I will run it past them see what they think about it.
It is amazing what you can do when you have an extra "zero" in the budget-----------------
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 15, 2015, 09:08:41 AM
Oh I apologize. I thought that was understood. I spoke with management and we agreed on 15k to the entire pool system, which is quite a lot more than just replacing 4 damaged speakers, which was what the $1500 budget was previously for.

Now it's only a matter of deciding what I am going to do with the system. I have some ideas and I will run it past them see what they think about it.
I would start with large amplifier.  Get something that is rated at 300w/channel @4 ohms and bridge it (to get 600 watts @ 8 ohms-which is 70V)

Now tap the speakers at 8 watts instead of the 1  or so they SHOULD be tapped at now.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 15, 2015, 05:49:21 PM
I would start with large amplifier.  Get something that is rated at 300w/channel @4 ohms and bridge it (to get 600 watts @ 8 ohms-which is 70V)

Now tap the speakers at 8 watts instead of the 1  or so they SHOULD be tapped at now.

I'm still left with the exact same problem. Most of the drivers current are too brittle to handle an increase in usage such as that brought on by getting a new amplifier.

That was the reason this thread started, so I could find suitable replacement drivers (or speakers). The current drivers are extremely weather beaten and are on their way out.

Since I think any "normal" driver would deteriorate under these conditions, I think I am going to invest into a few bigger speakers than invest in many smaller ones. I feel bigger speakers would give better coverage to the entire area as a whole. There will definitely be "dead zones" but that's pretty inevitable at this point.

I could replace 5 of the in-wall speakers with a single speaker in terms of sound quality and coverage.

I was thinking about the Community WET W2-218 for this. They are quite expensive up front, but I feel it will save money not having to replace them every 5 years.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 15, 2015, 06:31:06 PM
I'm still left with the exact same problem. Most of the drivers current are too brittle to handle an increase in usage such as that brought on by getting a new amplifier.


I thought you were replacing all the speakers?

My suggestion was based on that.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 15, 2015, 06:33:43 PM
I thought you were replacing all the speakers?

My suggestion was based on that.

Oh yes sorry, I read your reply wrong. I am replacing all of them. But the big question is: what do I replace them with?
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 15, 2015, 07:23:33 PM
Oh yes sorry, I read your reply wrong. I am replacing all of them. But the big question is: what do I replace them with?
Here is how I would approach the "problem".

Now that you have a budget number-subtract the "KNOWNS"-wire-labor-hopefully a new amp etc.

So now you have what is "left over" for the speakers alone.

You divide that by the number of speakers.

NOW you have a number that you can ask "What speaker would you recommend for my application that costs "X" (the number you came up with)"

Until people have some sort of an idea of budget-it is hard to recommend anything USEFUL TO YOU.

Remember that anything that is recommended needs to include a 70V transformer cost.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Mitch Philips on August 15, 2015, 10:21:35 PM
Here is how I would approach the "problem".

Now that you have a budget number-subtract the "KNOWNS"-wire-labor-hopefully a new amp etc.

So now you have what is "left over" for the speakers alone.

You divide that by the number of speakers.

NOW you have a number that you can ask "What speaker would you recommend for my application that costs "X" (the number you came up with)"

Until people have some sort of an idea of budget-it is hard to recommend anything USEFUL TO YOU.

Remember that anything that is recommended needs to include a 70V transformer cost.

Okay I'll get a tally and I'll get back to you. Thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Best recommended weatherproof wall speakers for poolside background music?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on August 16, 2015, 03:22:54 PM
Okay I'll get a tally and I'll get back to you. Thanks for your help.
The reason for the question is that MANY MANY times people ask questions about "what to do" yet have not put any thought into what is really needed within a certain budget.

They want quick answers or simple confirmation that what they are doing is "correct".

Thinking through the whole process can often reveal different answers or completely different questions.