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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: John Rutirasiri on October 28, 2014, 03:46:58 PM
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I almost alway adjust the final invoice by crediting what was quoted but ended up not needed/used. We're talking about bigger things like delay towers or trusses, not cables or mics.
Most of the time it was due to overspec or limitation of the venue rather than a customer request (e.g. press/mult box that never got hooked up.)
I'm curious how does everyone else handle it?
Thanks.
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I almost alway adjust the final invoice by crediting what was quoted but ended up not needed/used. We're talking about bigger things like delay towers or trusses, not cables or mics.
Most of the time it was due to overspec or limitation of the venue rather than a customer request (e.g. press/mult box that never got hooked up.)
I'm curious how does everyone else handle it?
Thanks.
Did the customer request the items not used? If so, they should be charged something just for your effort.
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I almost alway adjust the final invoice by crediting what was quoted but ended up not needed/used. We're talking about bigger things like delay towers or trusses, not cables or mics.
Most of the time it was due to overspec or limitation of the venue rather than a customer request (e.g. press/mult box that never got hooked up.)
I'm curious how does everyone else handle it?
Thanks.
Did the gear get take out of the rental house, so no one else was able to use it? also taking effort to move, inventory, and check for damage. if so they should be charged full price if they use it or not. I've never heard of anyone discounting for that.
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If it was part of the "Gear Requested By The Client," then yes, they pay for it whether it is used or not. Your example of the press multi box that wasn't connected... if that was because you ran out of time or never got around to hooking it up -- yeah, I wouldn't charge for it. But, if it was something that the client requested, and there was no need (not enough or no press at all!), well, they asked for it. But, if it's something you added to the invoice, saying "This might be something we need," and you ended up not using it, then -- might be worth making them happy and removing from the invoice.
Look at it this way: If you had something on the truck that the client needs, would you charge them for using it when they ask for it, even though it was on the truck already?
Limitation of the venue? That should have been determined at the time of the advance...
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I almost alway adjust the final invoice by crediting what was quoted but ended up not needed/used. We're talking about bigger things like delay towers or trusses, not cables or mics.
Most of the time it was due to overspec or limitation of the venue rather than a customer request (e.g. press/mult box that never got hooked up.)
I'm curious how does everyone else handle it?
Thanks.
If the kit is part of the quote it should be paid for. Sitting in the van it cost to load and can't be let out on another job. You mentioned overspec, then that really depends on who did it. Customer or act, they pay. if it's down to you, then swallow it or get a reputation for "milking" the job.
Most of the time I quote a job as a job, labour and much of the gear is often the same so costs will be the same. Specifics should be either well known to you as being required or not. Charging by the mic cable on a full job is a little bit pedantic and looks petty from a clients point of view.
Just my opinion, YMMV
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... if it's down to you, then swallow it or get a reputation for "milking" the job.
Well if I have two extra channels of wireless on the truck, because for whatever the reason I did, and the client suddenly realizes that they need it-- then they'll be made aware of the rental charge, and given the expectation that they will receive an invoice for it. I'm happy to be "that guy" who saves the day, but I still have to pay for the gear!
-Ray
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As a large Backline house there are multiple times we have delivered a whole stage full of gear that does not get used because of miscommunication between the artists and venue. Production management said it was a fly date and was not, they hired local band last minute, etc.
I do not discount or refund the gear if we delivered what and when we were supposed to. As others have said, the gear was allocated and could not go elsewhere to make money.
I have never had a client argue this. I would say think of it this way, if you rented a car but then didn't drive it around would they refund you? Rent a movie and don't watch it, do you get a refund?
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Well if I have two extra channels of wireless on the truck, because for whatever the reason I did, and the client suddenly realizes that they need it-- then they'll be made aware of the rental charge, and given the expectation that they will receive an invoice for it. I'm happy to be "that guy" who saves the day, but I still have to pay for the gear!
-Ray
That's the customer requesting it, and you may be happy to be that guy. Some clients this is exactly the way to go, others will take exception. If you want to charge for a couple extra 58's or one extra monitor (taking that I'm hiring a full rig and stage pack), over the last time I hired you and your kit, find another client, if I ask you to provide 2 extra wireless over the two we had last time, or 6 extra cabs, I would, of course, expect to pay extra.
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As a large Backline house there are multiple times we have delivered a whole stage full of gear that does not get used because of miscommunication between the artists and venue. Production management said it was a fly date and was not, they hired local band last minute, etc.
I do not discount or refund the gear if we delivered what and when we were supposed to. As others have said, the gear was allocated and could not go elsewhere to make money.
I have never had a client argue this. I would say think of it this way, if you rented a car but then didn't drive it around would they refund you? Rent a movie and don't watch it, do you get a refund?
This. A client pays to have gear/crew at their disposal rather than at another event. What that gear does while on site is irrelevant.
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Thank you to everyone for all the valuable inputs.
The on-site request one can be problematic. From outdated stage plots to last minute shoe-in, to C acts that think they own the world, many times I've had to go beyond what was quoted to make it happen. I've had to do things from bringing out another digital snake to patch the band's own set up to putting a sub on stage for the drummer.
I agree that a wedge or two or an extra mic is probably not worth going after. However, many show organizers do take these freebies for granted. Perhaps it is better to invoice and then "good will" it?
The one time I drew the line was when tent covering the stage was too small and the lights hung would have been behind the lead singers. I had to charge to get trusses up. Luckily we carry trusses in the truck "just in case."
Many thanks,
JR
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We only charge for what is used... but we are a road house so it is a different game. However, if we sub in backline and the drummer shows up with a kit they promoter still eats the cost because we payed for it. We do charge different levels for different levels of production, if you want our full monitor rig, FOH rig, racks and stacks, and all of our mics you get one rate vs a podium/mic talking heads thing. It is all still there, but you don't have to pay for it. In our place paying the rental fee for the hall includes nothing, we cost account for everything from PA to flooring to backline.
I guess it really depends on how you are set up. If every show is custom and you pack the truck every day for a different event then charge for what goes into the truck. If you are one of the operations that operates on more of the film grip truck model where everything lives in the truck, then charge for what is hauled out of the truck.
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Thank you to everyone for all the valuable inputs.
The on-site request one can be problematic. From outdated stage plots to last minute shoe-in, to C acts that think they own the world, many times I've had to go beyond what was quoted to make it happen. I've had to do things from bringing out another digital snake to patch the band's own set up to putting a sub on stage for the drummer.
I agree that a wedge or two or an extra mic is probably not worth going after. However, many show organizers do take these freebies for granted. Perhaps it is better to invoice and then "good will" it?
The one time I drew the line was when tent covering the stage was too small and the lights hung would have been behind the lead singers. I had to charge to get trusses up. Luckily we carry trusses in the truck "just in case."
Many thanks,
JR
To clarify, I almost always have extra useful things on the truck and will frequently play the hero by helping out with that missing channel of wireless or extra guitar stands or whatever. I do not charge for that stuff but I do make sure the client (check writer) knows if I can do that in a classy way.
Fortunately I have yet to have anyone I felt like is taking advantage of us, but in fact feel this is one of many reasons we have so many happy clients. Fairness goes both ways. I would not want the client making a big deal out of us shorting a guitar stand in the pack, so I don't make a big deal out of helping them out with one.
Now if I have to go back to the shop you are paying for sure.
Most of this business stuff just comes down to the golden rule. I have found if you are fair and helpful then 90% of clients will return the favor. The other 10% are learning experiences and patience growers.