Post by: Nathan Vanderslice on August 06, 2007, 05:12:31 PM
To Michael Rogers, and anyone else interested. Don't try to tamper with house wiring to attempt to make a 20 amp circuit capable of pulling a possible 30 amps. It's crazy and dangerous The method that Chris Heywood may possibly work but I'm fairly sure that it's not legal. Remember that the fuses/breakers are not only to protect the equipment, but the wiring in the wall. This idea of Chris's could result in a very large but brief current surge that could start a fire in a wall. Michael, I would strongly suggest for your safety that you construct an adapter that includes a 20 amp breaker or fuse at that point. Remember, any "jury rigged" wiring that is not withing code, can void your insurance should there be a fire, and it's shown to be the cause of it. By putting a fuse/breaker in the adapter, you assure that unless it fails, you can have peace of mind that the building's wiring won't overheat. It's a small price to pay for peace of mind.
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 05:33:46 PM
Post by: Scott Smith on August 06, 2007, 05:40:36 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 17:33 |
...it should only be used by knowledgeable individuals with electrical such as myself... |
Here we go again!
Post by: Mac Kerr on August 06, 2007, 05:44:13 PM
Mac
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 05:56:21 PM
Unlike others who make statements and then run without providing any technical information as to how they come to conclusions, or make recommendations, I am prepared to answer electrical questions to give all more insight.. and then we can all make an INFORMED judgment call on credibility... Just the way I like it, informed.
In the field of electrical, I make the credibility calls
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 06, 2007, 06:19:35 PM
I'd thank you kindly to have nothing to do with the electricity in any venue, dwelling, or building I'm in.
Really, you've stuck your foot in a bodily orifice or two already. Don't up the count.
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
Post by: David Buckley on August 06, 2007, 06:24:40 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 09:56 |
In the field of electrical, I make the credibility calls |
This should be funny.....
And just out of curiosity, since the original post appears to have been vaped, you didn't suggest slapping a 30A breaker on a domestic 20A circuit, did you...?
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 06:26:25 PM
| Quote: |
Really, you've stuck your foot in a bodily orifice or two already. Don't up the count. |
Just where exactly did this event take place?
Is that a statement derived from an educated perspective? if so, what are the technical details?
Is that only because I turned and retracted my suggestion based on the excitement level?
What can I say, I thought I was talking to electrically informed individuals, guess not... Is that a foot in the mouth, or an act of kindness and consideration?
ease up on the romper room comments, if you cant back up your comments or wise cracks, then prepare to get SPANKED!
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 06:28:22 PM
I will just go ahead and give myself an A+
anymore?
Post by: Vince Byrne on August 06, 2007, 06:41:19 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 16:56 |
LETS HAVE A TEST Unlike others who make statements and then run without providing any technical information as to how they come to conclusions, or make recommendations, I am prepared to answer electrical questions to give all more insight.. and then we can all make an INFORMED judgment call on credibility... Just the way I like it, informed. In the field of electrical, I make the credibility calls |
Okay. Here's the test:
- When you use your illegal adapter to parallel two 20A circuits, does the venue pay the fine, or do you?
- When a fire results due to an overloaded neutral, does everyone make it out?
- When you find you are unzipped in a public forum do you get quiet and say "oops" or do you wave it around?
You really don't need to answer, your credibility is firmly understood.
Peace,
Vince
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on August 06, 2007, 06:42:15 PM
Ok Mr. Electric, Name 3 things wrong/broken with this panel, and tell me what kind of panel it is:
Evan
Post by: dave stojan on August 06, 2007, 06:44:00 PM
Remember, no good deed ever goes unpunished.
Play dead - it's your only hope (if Peter Boyle never used that line in "Everybody Loves Raymond" he should have).
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 06:47:41 PM
| Quote: |
Okay. Here's the test: - When you use your illegal adapter to parallel two 20A circuits, does the venue pay the fine, or do you? - When a fire results due to an overloaded neutral, does everyone make it out? - When you find you are unzipped in a public forum do you get quiet and say "oops" or do you wave it around? Peace, Vince |
First of all, when making such arrangements, everything on the circuit must be figured into the equasion... 2nd, fire? this comes from uniformed information not specified, for example, how would a fire result? dont have a clue? thats ok, good try though, I give you a C+ Good job...
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 06:48:33 PM
Post by: dave stojan on August 06, 2007, 06:54:04 PM
Good luck. One last bit of advice (which I intend to observe):
When you're in a hole, stop digging!
Shovel be gone thou foul beast!
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on August 06, 2007, 06:56:01 PM
| dave stojan wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 18:54 |
Oops! I thought you were the guy that suggested a 30amp to 20 amp adapter! I see I missed YOUR posts. From what's left of them I can see where you were coming from (somewhat) but hoo-boy, NEVER try to learn somebody something like that over the keyboard! Good luck. One last bit of advice (which I intend to observe): When you're in a hole, stop digging! Shovel be gone thou foul beast! |
No, he suggested to build a 30 amp to dual 20 amp adapter, even dumber...
Looks like our resident house electrical guy couldnt find the answers on google for my question.
Evan
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 07:02:52 PM
first of all, from the looks of the pic,
loose connections to a sub panel or similar melted down.... Loose connections are most likely because the burn out is in one area, but loose connections are only the most likely, without being there, its a whole different story...No company will ever attempt diagnosis from a picture, lets be real here...
but I say, good questions Evan gets D+
| Quote: |
No, he suggested to build a 30 amp to dual 20 amp adapter, even dumber... |
Since we have a judgement call here, what exactly do you mean? and what did I mean? since 'dumber' is used, what are the technical details behind 'dumber'?
try to be educational in your response please... its ok if you cant answer, I understand
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on August 06, 2007, 07:11:26 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:02 |
Evan ol buddy! I knew you wouldnt be late.... ok lets look at your melt down... unfortunately I am limited to a full diagnosis from a picture... Now im good, but not that good, so i will point out the obvious... first of all, from the looks of the pic, loose connections to a sub panel or similar melted down.... Loose connections are most likely because the burn out is in one area, but loose connections are only the most likely, without being there, its a whole different story...No company will ever attempt diagnosis from a picture, lets be real here... but I say, good questions Evan gets D+ |
Sadly, you get an E.
No sub panel being fed from this guy. Someone physically torched the buss bars, burning the panel and melting some breakers.
But you knew that.
Ill let someone else waste their time with you...
Evan
Post by: Vince Byrne on August 06, 2007, 07:16:19 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 18:02 |
Since we have a judgement call here, what exactly do you mean? and what did I mean? since 'dumber' is used, what are the technical details behind 'dumber'? |
Illegal.
Unsafe.
Dumberer, even.
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 07:17:31 PM
| Quote: |
No sub panel being fed from this guy. Someone physically torched the buss bars, burning the panel and melting some breakers. |
come on Evan ol buddy, you are better than that cheap shot... I said "most likely" and "without being there, its a whole different story"
Im covered, So I correct your grade, and change it back to an A+
good try though
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 07:18:49 PM
| Quote: |
Illegal. Unsafe. Dumberer, even. |
is this the extent of technical knowledge I am having to deal with? you get a D-
Post by: Clayton Luckie on August 06, 2007, 07:25:10 PM
I'm certainly no electrician (so I won't comment on safety), but I have not seen you refute the illegality of your method.
Is the electrical procedure in question legal to perform in your area?
Check one:
□ Yes
□ No
cl
P.S. - I never cared about grades, even in school, so please save mine for someone else.
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 07:25:13 PM
Thank you...
Of course illegitimate questions are preferred, lets try to keep out the silly things, and ask legitimate questions, but be sure there is some educational background to confirm the accuracy of my statements...
As it stands now, I am still here with an A+ grade level of credibility, of course and unfortunately, there are some insecure individuals who cant stand that kind of thing, but it is so anyhow...
I didnt have to be so cocky about it, but I wasnt until some wise cracks came across, and its only fair that i respond with wise cracks of the WHIP!
Post by: The Guy on August 06, 2007, 07:28:38 PM
-When you are trying to get 130dB at FOH (with 10dB of headroom, naturally) and you blow the fuse, do you put a penny in it next time?
-Did your audience leave because it sounded like crap, because it was too loud, or because the venue was on fire? All of the above?
-Are you that guy who disconnects the ground cam on their distro to get rid of system hum?
-JB
P.S. that Panel is a FRANK ADAM baby! I'd recognize one anywhere. It's all charred because Evan was RAWKING OUT! It takes a lot of current to burn up TRX midrange cones
.
Post by: Vince Byrne on August 06, 2007, 07:35:41 PM
At this point this isn't a game. At minimum you have got to know that adapter violates code and is illegal. That alone should be enough for you to stop this, now.
You are giving advice here to people you don't know. You might have the skills to meter out the outlets, but the guy most likely to take this advice doesn't. You can't just toss them a loaded gun and expect things to come out okay.
Peace,
Vince
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 07:37:19 PM
| Quote: |
Chris I'm certainly no electrician (so I won't comment on safety), but I have not seen you refute the illegality of your method. Is the electrical procedure in question legal to perform in your area? |
My method is that of using an extension cord... you do so at your own risk, you can start a fire with an extension cord if you are clueless...
Is an extension cord illegal?
NAY...
Here are the technical details....
After checking any other devices on either of the 2 circuits, best if there are none for the super safety people, but if there are some, your electrical knowledge will confirm or deny the saftey of each device electrically in such arrangements... now that being out of the way... 2 15 or 20 amp circuits supplying a single 30 amp load
(current stays the same in a series circuit) but in a parrelel circuit voltage remains the same, thus safely increasing available CURRENT to amplifier, NOT CHANGING WIRE SIZE IN WALLS, OR BREAKERS..... AND PRESENTING ZERO SAFETY HAZARD..
Now do we see the light? now we see how silly all of the complaints are with this knowledge?
Legal? no alterations to building electrical systems exist, infact, this method is MORE SAFE! than using a single 15 or 20 am oultet for a 30 amp load...
Post by: Andy Peters on August 06, 2007, 07:37:27 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 14:56 |
LETS HAVE A TEST Unlike others who make statements and then run without providing any technical information as to how they come to conclusions, or make recommendations, I am prepared to answer electrical questions to give all more insight.. and then we can all make an INFORMED judgment call on credibility... Just the way I like it, informed. In the field of electrical, I make the credibility calls |
To support your self-proclaimed status of "judger of credibility in all things electrical:"
Please detail all of your relevant educational and training experience, as well as your electrician's license information. Also please tell us how many years of experience you have working as a licensed electrician.
Thank you.
-a
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 07:42:16 PM
| Quote: |
Chris, a few Q's: -When you are trying to get 130dB at FOH (with 10dB of headroom, naturally) and you blow the fuse, do you put a penny in it next time? -Did your audience leave because it sounded like crap, because it was too loud, or because the venue was on fire? All of the above? -Are you that guy who disconnects the ground cam on their distro to get rid of system hum? -JB |
Jim ol buddy! the whole purpose of this arrangement is to avoid blowing a fuse!
What I do is calculate my electrical loads so I never blow a fuse! unless its older than dirt, in such case, I have a drawer in one my trucks FULL OF FUSES! of all different types... Because I deal with electrical problems on a regular basis, of which I have to diagnose and repair.... This is my field! YEEE HAAAA!
Post by: Fred Merkle on August 06, 2007, 07:42:29 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:37 |
2 15 or 20 amp circuits supplying a single 30 amp load (current stays the same in a series circuit) but in a parrelel circuit voltage remains the same, thus safely increasing available CURRENT to amplifier, NOT CHANGING WIRE SIZE IN WALLS, OR BREAKERS..... AND PRESENTING ZERO SAFETY HAZARD.. |
[BUZZER] Wrong. You cannot guarantee that the current will evenly divide between the two neutrals. Worst case is all current goes down one of them. Since your breaker is only high-side, you just started a fire. (Certainly the fire part depends on how long you run it in such a configuration.)
I apologize for yelling: THERE IS NO SAFE WAY TO PARALLEL TWO HOUSHOLD AC CIRCUITS IN AN ATTEMPT TO GET MORE CURRENT THAN ANY ONE CIRCUIT IS RATED FOR.
-Fred
Post by: Andy Peters on August 06, 2007, 07:42:45 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 16:37 |
(current stays the same in a series circuit) but in a parrelel (learn to fucking spell) circuit voltage remains the same, thus safely increasing available CURRENT to amplifier, NOT CHANGING WIRE SIZE IN WALLS, OR BREAKERS..... AND PRESENTING ZERO SAFETY HAZARD.. |
So, you are advocating paralleling two circuits, which is basically combining two hots after their respective breakers.
You'd better fucking hope that they're on the same phase.
And that the local electrical inspector doesn't see it.
| Quote: |
Now do we see the light? now we see how silly all of the complaints are with this knowledge? |
We see how silly you are in advocating such a thing.
-a
Post by: Mac Kerr on August 06, 2007, 07:43:23 PM
Mac
Post by: Andy Peters on August 06, 2007, 07:44:25 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 16:42 |
This is my field! YEEE HAAAA! |
I think I speak for many here, but put it this way:
I don't want a fucking cowboy anywhere near my mains service.
Thanks for playing.
Now, Heywood Yabuzzoff.
-a
Post by: Nathan Vanderslice on August 06, 2007, 07:47:38 PM
Post by: David Buckley on August 06, 2007, 07:49:28 PM
| Evan Kirkendall wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 10:42 |
Name 3 things wrong/broken with this panel, and tell me what kind of panel it is |
I dont know the exact panel, but it looks awfully like a lighting dimmer panel with rheostatic dimmers.
The temporarily attached cable has both ground and neutral connected to the neutral block, which is a violation unless this equipment is service entry rated and used as the service entrance equipment, which it won't be, and it can't be.
Furthermore, the aforementioned neutral wires appear to be improperly terminated on the neutral block, unless the block is listed to wires terminated on it in that fashion, which it wont have.
There appear to be hots connected to the busbar without breakers, so unless the upstream OCPD is sized to protect those wires thats another violation.
Hell, its all a violation, put a picaxe through it, or call the AHJ who worries about such things.
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 07:51:54 PM
Post by: Mark Dawson on August 06, 2007, 07:55:26 PM
Have you ever clipped both terminals of your truck battery with a wrench trying to install it in cramped conditions? Do you remember that BIG bang it made? Thats merely a battery.
Mains voltage is a great usefull thing, but its dangerous. We spend all day telling kids not to stick forks in sockets yet we have people making a mockery of professional safety in a public forum read by professionals but also by newbies. In an industry already plagued by plugs with the earth broken off to avoid ground loops, dodgy neutrals and breaker bypasses, are you suggesting that we now wave our forks at high-current 3 phase power instead??
I won't get involved in power arguments, mainly because its different over here (240AC 10Amp 50HZ in the sockets in your house and 400v three phase +neutral +earth in big-boys sockets). But build quality equipment that is up to the current draw. Ensure it is up to code by consulting a registered electrical professional who is experienced in the power of the entertainment industry. Maintain and test regularly. And always test and inspect venue power before plugging in. If it's not good enough then hire a genny and bill the promoter. Also do not sugggest dodgy adapters or workarounds in a public forum.
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 07:55:50 PM
| Fred Merkle wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 18:42 | ||
[BUZZER] Wrong. You cannot guarantee that the current will evenly divide between the two neutrals. Worst case is all current goes down one of them. Since your breaker is only high-side, you just started a fire. (Certainly the fire part depends on how long you run it in such a configuration.) I apologize for yelling: THERE IS NO SAFE WAY TO PARALLEL TWO HOUSHOLD AC CIRCUITS IN AN ATTEMPT TO GET MORE CURRENT THAN ANY ONE CIRCUIT IS RATED FOR. -Fred |
Fred ol buddy, dont forget something you left out, current takes the path of least resistance, that makes all current traveling down 1 nuetrel completley impossible... Fred you get a C+, good thought...
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on August 06, 2007, 08:00:16 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 16:51 |
Mac ol buddy ol pal, you know there is an overwhelming need to prove me wrong here, so its hard to deny such a temptation... In a little while, I will have this all straightened out, I promise... I just have a few more posts to respond to... |
Chris - no one cares about "proving" anything.
Most of us just want to be certain that your posts are clearly disavowed by this community so that others do not emulate your unsafe practices.
Post by: Vince Byrne on August 06, 2007, 08:00:37 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 18:51 |
Mac ol buddy ol pal, you know there is an overwhelming need to prove me wrong here, so its hard to deny such a temptation... In a little while, I will have this all straightened out, I promise... I just have a few more posts to respond to... |
Hopeless rectal cranial inversion. I'm out.
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 08:02:15 PM
| Andy Peters wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 18:42 | ||||
So, you are advocating paralleling two circuits, which is basically combining two hots after their respective breakers. You'd better fucking hope that they're on the same phase. And that the local electrical inspector doesn't see it.
We see how silly you are in advocating such a thing. -a |
Mr andy, u seem like an unhappy person, the picture says the same thing.. I am trying to respond to many posts, and my spelling may suffer for fast typing... I really hope you havent thrown something through the window by now...
so relax a little, and think to yourself, how could one come up with such a quick good idea (apparently only for the right people) and be out of phase? dont forget the meter... the meter assures no explosions, and tells all....
Im still working on your progress report, but I dont want to give you a bad grade and have you brake your computer, then we will miss out on the excitement you bring
Post by: Mark Dawson on August 06, 2007, 08:03:37 PM
To build a "portable adapter" suitable for combining two household circuits would almost certainly involve a situation where a male plug (anatomy here people its the boy) to become live. Hopefully when this occurs the path of least resistance is through you and not an innocent bystander or bill-paying client.
There was a case a few years ago here where a dopey sparky managed to make an extension lead with two male ends on it. Fried himself really well
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 08:04:57 PM
| Andy Peters wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 18:44 | ||
I think I speak for many here, but put it this way: I don't want a fucking cowboy anywhere near my mains service. Thanks for playing. Now, Heywood Yabuzzoff. -a |
You are so funny! YEEE HAAA!
you have no idea who shows up at your house, who knows, after the right wrong experience, you may be begging for a 'cowboy' to come to your house...
Post by: Vince Byrne on August 06, 2007, 08:07:09 PM
Post by: Dan Mills on August 06, 2007, 08:07:34 PM
If one end is unplugged then you potentially have 110V on an exposed male connector, there is no way to make this safe, furthermore there are all the issues with poorly protected neutrals.
Further, my reading of the US NEC holds that parallel cables are ONLY allowed above a size much larger then your extension, and even then must be fed from the same breaker and must follow the same path?
Finally, that breaker box (is it an old Federal?), apart from the obvious heat damage, appears to have the neutral and earth on that tie in connected to the same busbar, which is wrong to start with and the presence of that neutral/earth link on what looking at the location is probably a subpanel is deeply suspicious. Also the cover is missing.
That thing would fail the giggle test at a periodic inspection here.
How do I score?
Regards, Dan.
Post by: Fred Merkle on August 06, 2007, 08:07:48 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:55 | ||||
Fred ol buddy, dont forget something you left out, current takes the path of least resistance, that makes all current traveling down 1 nuetrel completley impossible... Fred you get a C+, good thought... |
My point exactly. Let's say you're drawing 30A off of two 20A circuits where one neutral has a resistance of .5ohms and the other is .1ohms. The amount of current going through the former neutral is 5A, while 25A goes through the latter. Since we're talking household wiring and a breaker only on the hot, you're now exceeding the current draw the latter neutral is rated for. Too much current == fire.
I am done, as Mac suggested.
Also. I am not your buddy. You have never met me; you wouldn't like me.
-Fred
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 08:10:41 PM
| Nathan Vanderslice wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 18:47 |
Chris, Why don't you just change one of the 20 amp breakers in the panel for a 40 amp breaker? N-O-O-O-O-O-T. What you were proposing was to tie two 20 amp circuits from different locations in the house to make a 40 amp circuit. Now I'm no electrician, and my knowledge of wiring is limited, But I think you can in fact put two 20 amp fuses together in parallel to have one 40 amp protective device, howver, the load side of the wiring HAS to be compatible with that 40 amp load capability. Two 12ga wires running through different parts of the house just doesn't cut it..... |
remember, this is not a house wiring situation, this was a question on how to make alternative arrangements to compensate for lack of power supply to a given area... otherwise, you are completely correct, it would be silly to run multiple 12 awg wires in place of the proper 8 awg for 40 amp circuit.... but its good to know options in the advent there is no 8 awg, and you need a temporary arrangement, then use multiple 12awg
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on August 06, 2007, 08:14:05 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:25 |
Anyone else before this topic is locked up? Thank you... Of course illegitimate questions are preferred, lets try to keep out the silly things, and ask legitimate questions, but be sure there is some educational background to confirm the accuracy of my statements... As it stands now, I am still here with an A+ grade level of credibility, of course and unfortunately, there are some insecure individuals who cant stand that kind of thing, but it is so anyhow... I didnt have to be so cocky about it, but I wasnt until some wise cracks came across, and its only fair that i respond with wise cracks of the WHIP! |
Chris, ol' buddy, ol' pal, this sums all of your posts up pretty well:
Evan
Post by: Milt Hathaway on August 06, 2007, 08:17:57 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 18:55 |
Fred ol buddy, dont forget something you left out, current takes the path of least resistance, that makes all current traveling down 1 nuetrel completley impossible... Fred you get a C+, good thought... |
One of the problems I have with you is you make too many assumptions regarding this adaptor. The one you make here is the assumption that both neutrals in that 30A connector are perfectly connected to the terminal and each other. They might be the first time you use it, but they won't be in the future.
Another problem is no professional worth his salt will suggest something like your adaptor in public.
Never mind the fact that one day someone is going to (accidentally or otherwise) unplug half of that Y (one of the 20 amp plugs) and find themselves hold in a male edison plug with electrically-live bare blades. That's right, the bare blades of that loose edison plug are connected directly to that other 20 amp source. 120V 20A cattle prods are not fun.
Post by: Mark Dawson on August 06, 2007, 08:18:32 PM
Altho this is just a workshop mockup and not actually connected before Mr Behringer copies it.
The shocking thing is there was some outfit on the net selling things just like this a couple of years ago. Theory being you could use regular power cables to extend your speakers. Yikes!
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 08:20:11 PM
| Mark Dawson wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 18:55 |
To Chris and others like him: Also do not sugggest dodgy adapters or workarounds in a public forum. |
This is true, depending on who is making the connections and informed decisions... if wrong person, then dodgy, if right person, then no problem...
so I would say, C+ this is a good thought, and with the correct formation, we all benifit, thanks!
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 08:23:29 PM
| Tony "T" Tissot wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:00 | ||
Chris - no one cares about "proving" anything. Most of us just want to be certain that your posts are clearly disavowed by this community so that others do not emulate your unsafe practices. |
Unsafe practices?
Tony ol buddy! using an extension cord can be unsafe given the right circumstances...
Post by: Nathan Vanderslice on August 06, 2007, 08:24:02 PM
| Quote: |
After checking any other devices on either of the 2 circuits, best if there are none for the super safety people, but if there are some, your electrical knowledge will confirm or deny the saftey of each device electrically in such arrangements... now that being out of the way... 2 15 or 20 amp circuits supplying a single 30 amp load (current stays the same in a series circuit) but in a parrelel circuit voltage remains the same, thus safely increasing available CURRENT to amplifier, NOT CHANGING WIRE SIZE IN WALLS, OR BREAKERS..... AND PRESENTING ZERO SAFETY HAZARD.. |
It's the CURRENT not the voltage that trips the breaker! There's NO WAY that you can assure that the load will remain evenly distributed between the two circuits. Please remember that you are in a forum for many who are not well versed in sound or electrical. Giving such blatent misinformation could lead someone down the path to a very regrettable situation. As I said, I think you're pulling legs here. If not, then I think you need to get re-trained before you kill yourself or someone else.
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on August 06, 2007, 08:26:34 PM
| Evan Kirkendall wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 17:14 |
Chris, ol' buddy, ol' pal, this sums all of your posts up pretty well: Evan |
Except that there is no evidence of "careful wording".I suspect that Chris is borderline illiterate, as evidenced by his misuse of many common words, lack of subject specificity and inability to keep clauses coherent.
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 08:27:23 PM
| Vince Byrne wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:00 | ||
Hopeless rectal cranial inversion. I'm out. |
Vince ol buddy! its ok... the old saying goes, if you have nothing good to say, dont say anything at all...
I say Vince gets a B in recognition of this fact, this is great... good job
Post by: Mark Dawson on August 06, 2007, 08:29:13 PM
Except that there is no evidence of "careful wording".I suspect that Chris is borderline illiterate, as evidenced by his misuse of many common words, lack of subject specificity and inability to keep clauses coherent.[/quote]
Isn't that almost as bad as a colourblind electrician?
And before I get flamed for spelling on our side of the planet colour has a 'U'
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 08:31:55 PM
| Mark Dawson wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:03 |
Rite, next round time:........ To build a "portable adapter" suitable for combining two household circuits would almost certainly involve a situation where a male plug (anatomy here people its the boy) to become live. Hopefully when this occurs the path of least resistance is through you and not an innocent bystander or bill-paying client. There was a case a few years ago here where a dopey sparky managed to make an extension lead with two male ends on it. Fried himself really well |
I have run into people who have fried themselves many times, thats where I come in to straighten it out....
2 male ends? NAY, this would need to be a specially constructed arrangement NOT involving just 2 male ends...
What would that be for?
This involves more than just 2 male plugs
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 08:34:08 PM
| Vince Byrne wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:07 |
You know, at least the kid DJ dishing on his first kiss has an excuse ... |
??? you took a wrong turn again vince ol buddy, that was in another forum somewhere else.. we are having electrical education class here...
Post by: Vince Byrne on August 06, 2007, 08:34:39 PM
| Mark Dawson wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:29 |
And before I get flamed for spelling on our side of the planet colour has a 'U' |
I learned of "colour" when I ran across Coloursound, a one-album band with Mike Peters from The Alarm and Billy Duffy from the Cult. Pity it didn't last.
Peace,
Vince
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on August 06, 2007, 08:36:13 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 20:31 | ||
I have run into people who have fried themselves many times, thats where I come in to straighten it out.... 2 male ends? NAY, this would need to be a specially constructed arrangement NOT involving just 2 male ends... What would that be for? This involves more than just 2 male plugs |
WTF? Your posts make no sense. You keep changing how your plug is supposed to work.
Please, draw a diagram, labeling all the parts and carefully showing just how it is supposed to be wired up.
Or do you have a smart ass response to that to get around having to draw one?
I can see it now:
"Evan old champ, theres no need to draw up a sketch, as any common electrician would clearly understand what Im saying. Lets go have a cup of tea champ!"
Evan
Post by: Nathan Vanderslice on August 06, 2007, 08:38:13 PM
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 08:43:43 PM
| Dan Mills wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:07 |
Now I don't do American electrics, but we have a name for a parallel pair of plugs over here in the UK, we call it a 'widowmaker' for good reason. If one end is unplugged then you potentially have 110V on an exposed male connector, there is no way to make this safe, furthermore there are all the issues with poorly protected neutrals. Further, my reading of the US NEC holds that parallel cables are ONLY allowed above a size much larger then your extension, and even then must be fed from the same breaker and must follow the same path? How do I score? Regards, Dan. |
Dan ol buddy! you spotted a potential safety hazard, if one plug comes unplugged, but if the individual making the arrangements makes proper preparation, then that wont happen, I know, all things are possible, but dont forget, even a simple extension cord is a safety hazard as well..
and dont forget, we are talking application in out of the ordinary conditions, where out of the ordinary temporary solutions exist.. good job you get a B+
Post by: Mike Lieman on August 06, 2007, 08:48:00 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 |
remember, this is not a house wiring situation, this was a question on how to make alternative arrangements to compensate for lack of power supply to a given area... |
1-800-Rent-a-Genny
Post by: Vince Byrne on August 06, 2007, 08:52:53 PM
| Nathan Vanderslice wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:38 |
By the way, I'm not getting upset with what you have said, I'm finding it totally laughable, |
You know, it's kind of like watching a drunk guy piss himself. But not at my gig, that would be gross.
| Quote: |
my concern is that your bad advice doesn't get someone else hurt or in trouble. As I said before, I hope YOU don't end up killing someone either. |
Darwin in action. Chris or the fool that listens to him.
Actually Chris is A+, I'm sure he's got more!
Peace,
Vince
Post by: Scott Smith on August 06, 2007, 08:54:01 PM
Post by: Dan Mills on August 06, 2007, 09:00:34 PM
| Mike Lieman wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 01:48 |
1-800-Rent-a-Genny |
Works for me, but is possibly a little overkill.
How about just not turning the amp up all the way?
Failing that, a COMPETENT electrician could easily be summoned to pull a length of suitable (SJOOW? (Sorry I am not well up on American cable designations)) to a breaker panel, there to be terminated into a suitable breaker....
Plenty of ways to skin this particular cat while remaining code compliant and more importantly safe, and none of them involve widowmakers!
Regards, Dan.
Post by: Al Limberg on August 06, 2007, 09:09:21 PM
1. Fred is my kinda guy...I think we'd get along.
2. If my 16 year old son came to me spouting this drivel I'd wash his mouth out with soap and wouldn't pay him for the next seven nights of festivals starting this week.
3. I thought we just got rid of Tim Duffin.
?;o)
Al
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on August 06, 2007, 09:27:30 PM
| Mark Dawson wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 20:29 |
...And before I get flamed for spelling on our side of the planet colour has a 'U' |
And on every side of the planet, a comma after (at least) the word "spelling" would add clarity to that sentence.
I might add that not just Down Under, but very close to my part of the planet (up there in sunny Canada) they favour the flavour of "U"sing the letter U in colour, and they endeavour with great fervour to match much of the orthography practised in the very centre of Anglophony, the British Isles. And in the defence of British spelling, let's also recognise once-colonised countries like Jamaica and India for staying with the programme, as many travellers have realised. Will you honour my cheque if I show you my licence?
Post by: Jason Lavoie on August 06, 2007, 09:42:17 PM
and, to throw in a hazard that I don't think has been mentioned yet: what happens when you pop one of the two breakers and around the same time your consumption drops a bit so the second one doesn't go. now you have your cheater plug supplying power to a circuit via an outlet.
backfeeding is most certainly not legal, and any device or scenario that could lead to backfeeding automatically rules it out as safe.
so, you get an automatic F
oops, sorry. I guess only YOU are allowed to assign people random grades.
Jason Lavoie, B.Eng (Electrical)
Post by: Chris Davis on August 06, 2007, 09:42:20 PM
| Tony "T" Tissot wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 20:26 | ||
Except that there is no evidence of "careful wording".I suspect that Chris is borderline illiterate, as evidenced by his misuse of many common words, lack of subject specificity and inability to keep clauses coherent. |
Agreed... I got down this far in the thread and won't go any farther. That is 10 or 15 minutes of my time I will never see again.
Is this forum starting to seem like the gong show for anyone else?
Post by: Pascal Pincosy on August 06, 2007, 09:54:22 PM
| Mac Kerr wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 00:43 |
I am not going to just lock every thread this troll posts in. If you don't read his posts you won't respond to them and he will either go away, or live a lonely existance talking to himself. You do yourselves a disservice by responding. Mac |
There's this really useful button on the right side of each post that says "ignore all messages by this user". Better to use it than waste all our times by posting responses to the moron. This whole thread is a waste.
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 10:08:06 PM
| Fred Merkle wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:07 | ||||||
My point exactly. Let's say you're drawing 30A off of two 20A circuits where one neutral has a resistance of .5ohms and the other is .1ohms. The amount of current going through the former neutral is 5A, while 25A goes through the latter. Since we're talking household wiring and a breaker only on the hot, you're now exceeding the current draw the latter neutral is rated for. Too much current == fire. I am done, as Mac suggested. Also. I am not your buddy. You have never met me; you wouldn't like me. -Fred |
back from dinner!
fred u stick in the mudd, why get all bent, waaa ... lets take a quick look at your calculations....
UHOH, FRED, you get an F for Fabricated calculations...
now its time for your spanking... here is where you went wrong....
to come up with the insane current differences that you did, the resistance would be on one neutral 4.8 ohms, and the next wire would be 24 ohms....
lets take a look at how wildly inaccurate these calcs you came up with are....
.roughly 1 ohm of resistance per every 500 FEET! 12 awg 20 amp wire...
for your insane hypothetical situation to be accurate in a house, one neutral would need to be thousands of feet longer...
Try to look like a hot shot and look what happens, why? what is the intense motivation all about, all that happens is you get spanked...
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 10:10:52 PM
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 10:15:01 PM
| Vince Byrne wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:52 | ||||
You know, it's kind of like watching a drunk guy piss himself. But not at my gig, that would be gross.
Darwin in action. Chris or the fool that listens to him. Actually Chris is A+, I'm sure he's got more! Peace, Vince |
Vince ol buddy! YEEEE HAAAA!
ride on horsey! interpretations are so much fun arent they? but accuracy and interpretation dont always point in the same direction...
accuracy of interpretation is defined by understanding...
Do you know what understanding is? dont pee on yourself vince ol buddy!
piece!
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on August 06, 2007, 10:22:26 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 22:15 | ||||||
Vince ol buddy! YEEEE HAAAA! ride on horsey! interpretations are so much fun arent they? but accuracy and interpretation dont always point in the same direction... accuracy of interpretation is defined by understanding... Do you know what understanding is? dont pee on yourself vince ol buddy! piece! |
Chris,
So,
This is my last post on this subject. And you are now going to be the first to be on my ignore list.
Evan
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 10:24:05 PM
| Al Limberg wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 20:09 |
After wasting 20 minutes reading this entire thread a couple things come to mind; 1. Fred is my kinda guy...I think we'd get along. 2. If my 16 year old son came to me spouting this drivel I'd wash his mouth out with soap and wouldn't pay him for the next seven nights of festivals starting this week. 3. I thought we just got rid of Tim Duffin. ?;o) Al |
fred is your kinda guy bla bla bla,... birds of a feather flock together...
2. thats too bad you cant recognize knowledge when you see it.. your actions will prohibit your son from excelling beyond yourself, I want my son to be better than me.. I certainly wouldnt punish him for being creative and coming to me with new ideas, shame on you... you should really search for wisdom my simple friend, but then again, you dont know what wisdom is based on you lack of it in your statements...
What is wisdom? dont worry, wisdom doesnt know you either...
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 10:35:31 PM
| Jason Lavoie wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 20:42 |
OK, I just had to post because I think we're headed for a record.. 4 pages of posts in less than one day! and, to throw in a hazard that I don't think has been mentioned yet: what happens when you pop one of the two breakers and around the same time your consumption drops a bit so the second one doesn't go. now you have your cheater plug supplying power to a circuit via an outlet. backfeeding is most certainly not legal, and any device or scenario that could lead to backfeeding automatically rules it out as safe. so, you get an automatic F oops, sorry. I guess only YOU are allowed to assign people random grades. Jason Lavoie, B.Eng (Electrical) |
YEEE HAAA!
Jason ol buddy! you are exactly right to a point,and that seems to be much of the confusion around here, so let me help out a little bit...
Legal seems to be a big thing, have you ever ran a stop sign?
is that legal? nay, but you will do it again wont you, because you are capable of discerning safety in the area of the stop sign... would you run a stop sign in rush hour or the middle of the night? can you see the difference?
same thing, no inspector would sign off on such a deal, neither would the police man, its all about your knowledge, this will be the safety factor...
So lets go through your scenario so we can all benefit..
lets say one breaker trips, and now you do have a single breaker supplying both circuits... so what is the WORST THING that can happen?
Answer, The 2nd breaker gets overloaded and trips as well... simple enough?
that being said, you apparently have not graded me according to an actual base of knowledge, THEREFORE, accuracy is called into question...
so I will have to correct that terrible grade you gave me and change it back to an A+
YEEEE HAAAA!
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 10:39:01 PM
| Evan Kirkendall wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 21:22 | ||||||||
Chris, So, This is my last post on this subject. And you are now going to be the first to be on my ignore list. Evan |
Is there any educational content to this? of course not, because there is no knowledge from the source....
This qualifies for an F for totally unrelated whining and complaining...
Post by: Steve Hurt on August 06, 2007, 10:39:02 PM
This thread is almost as entertaining as Jerry Springer!
(not quite as smart though)
Post by: Jamie Taylor on August 06, 2007, 10:41:10 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 12:35 |
Legal seems to be a big thing, have you ever ran a stop sign? is that legal? nay, but you will do it again wont you, because you are capable of discerning safety in the area of the stop sign... would you run a stop sign in rush hour or the middle of the night? can you see the difference? same thing, no inspector would sign off on such a deal, neither would the police man, its all about your knowledge, this will be the safety factor... |
Legal is a big thing, because people get Jailed for doing stupid things with electricity where I come from.
Plus, being a professional, I like to do things the right way. Hell, I like to do things SAFELY.
I'm with Evan, I didn't even push the 'ignore' button on Duffin.
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 10:46:37 PM
| Chris Davis wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 20:42 | ||||
Agreed... I got down this far in the thread and won't go any farther. That is 10 or 15 minutes of my time I will never see again. Is this forum starting to seem like the gong show for anyone else? |
Chris ol buddy ol pal!
of course you wont go any further, because you are running because you know your spanking IS ON THE WAY!
First of all, your post is illiterate in content full of accusations with no actual knowledgeable content to give any weight to your statements because you dont have a clue and you know it, and thats why you are on the run...
whats the big deal?
I know what I am doing, and you want to say im wrong but cant, I understand that must be frustrating, but I really dont understand why...
its like telling math teacher he's wrong, but cant say how? funny
So you get a D-
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 10:49:06 PM
| Pascal Pincosy wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 20:54 | ||
There's this really useful button on the right side of each post that says "ignore all messages by this user". Better to use it than waste all our times by posting responses to the moron. This whole thread is a waste. |
well instead of whining, why dont you try to make things positive, how about some educational content in your post instead of complaining about the lack of educational content in everyone else's?
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 10:53:11 PM
| Steve Hurt wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 21:39 |
I broke my foot Friday an am now stuck at home for 6-8 weeks so I've been watching stuff I wouldn't normally watch on TV and reading threads I wouldn't read due to shear boredom, and I have to say: This thread is almost as entertaining as Jerry Springer! (not quite as smart though) |
Steve ol buddy ol pal! YEEEE HAAAA!
only a few more spankings to go!
YEEEE HAAAA!
RIDE ON HORSEY! wheres my whip!
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 10:57:17 PM
| Jamie Taylor wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 21:41 | ||
Legal is a big thing, because people get Jailed for doing stupid things with electricity where I come from. Plus, being a professional, I like to do things the right way. Hell, I like to do things SAFELY. I'm with Evan, I didn't even push the 'ignore' button on Duffin. |
Jamie ol buddy! you are confused, so I will help you see the light... first of all, we are talking about a temporary arrangement...
are you going to rewire a house for a temporary arrangement? or any other place for that matter? of course not...
and you have run a stop sign too havent you?
then you are not safe at all, so wise up...
you get a D for no clue...
read the book before answering the test questions
Post by: Josh Billings on August 06, 2007, 10:58:26 PM
I think the 30 amp adapter chris was talking about was this. And it's completely safe and rated for marine use
P.S. This is the pigtail Y adapter i was talking about for those 30 amp kitchen plugs. Handy thing to use when you're setting up a beefy rack with no distro.
http://www.boatersoutlet.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&a mp;ProdID=1783
P.P.S. Totally joking about that 2 pronged household extension cord.
-Josh Billings
Post by: Jamie Taylor on August 06, 2007, 10:59:30 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 12:57 |
Jamie ol buddy! |
No, I'm not.
| chris haywood wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 12:57 |
and you have run a stop sign too havent you? |
No, I haven't. Thanks for playing.
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 11:01:55 PM
| Dan Mills wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 20:00 | ||
Works for me, but is possibly a little overkill. How about just not turning the amp up all the way? Failing that, a COMPETENT electrician could easily be summoned to pull a length of suitable (SJOOW? (Sorry I am not well up on American cable designations)) to a breaker panel, there to be terminated into a suitable breaker.... Plenty of ways to skin this particular cat while remaining code compliant and more importantly safe, and none of them involve widowmakers! Regards, Dan. |
I missed this one...
Dan ol buddy! have you ever ran a stop sign? didnt you know that it too can be a widowmaker?
what is the technical contribution in your post?
you get a D
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on August 06, 2007, 11:03:39 PM
| Pascal Pincosy wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 21:54 | ||
There's this really useful button on the right side of each post that says "ignore all messages by this user". Better to use it than waste all our times by posting responses to the moron. This whole thread is a waste. |
HEYYY! That worked great! (Why didn't I think of it?) Thanks, Pascal! I just followed Evan's lead (which y'know I don't just do for everything
)At least Duffin doesn't post 4 drivel posts in a row, followed by another three, then another three...
Post by: Peter Etheredge on August 06, 2007, 11:05:01 PM
If you are so convinced that you are correct in your electrical knowledge why bother argue on the internet about it? In fact, instead of arguing why don't you just go make some of these little do-dads and try them out! Set up a web came at your house so that we can all watch.
This is your big chance to show everyone once and for all how awesome you are!
Oh, and you will be doing society a huge favor by removing yourself from the gene pool when you die a horrible electrical related fatality; all while the whole wide interwebs is watching you!
YOU'RE THE MAN NOW DOG!
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 11:05:04 PM
| Josh Billings wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 21:58 |
Chris man you gotta know this is a bad idea. I think the 30 amp adapter chris was talking about was this. And it's completely safe and rated for marine use P.S. This is the pigtail Y adapter i was talking about for those 30 amp kitchen plugs. Handy thing to use when you're setting up a beefy rack with no distro. http://www.boatersoutlet.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&a mp;a mp;ProdID=1783 P.P.S. Totally joking about that 2 pronged household extension cord. -Josh Billings |
josh ol buddy! that thing can do 30 amps?
I guess the pic makes it look like it can only do 15....
look out for those pics!
Thanks for the update
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 11:06:35 PM
| Jamie Taylor wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 21:59 | ||||
No, I'm not.
No, I haven't. Thanks for playing. |
purhaps there is more confusion, what I mean by running, is not coming to a complete stop for 3 seconds...
that being said, you can now answer yes...
wait, dont lie, its bad for you...
brake time, my eyes are burning up...
are there any actual technical questions left?
Post by: Rob Spence on August 06, 2007, 11:16:04 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 19:37 | ||
My method is that of using an extension cord... you do so at your own risk, you can start a fire with an extension cord if you are clueless... Is an extension cord illegal? NAY... Here are the technical details.... After checking any other devices on either of the 2 circuits, best if there are none for the super safety people, but if there are some, your electrical knowledge will confirm or deny the saftey of each device electrically in such arrangements... now that being out of the way... 2 15 or 20 amp circuits supplying a single 30 amp load (current stays the same in a series circuit) but in a parrelel circuit voltage remains the same, thus safely increasing available CURRENT to amplifier, NOT CHANGING WIRE SIZE IN WALLS, OR BREAKERS..... AND PRESENTING ZERO SAFETY HAZARD.. Now do we see the light? now we see how silly all of the complaints are with this knowledge? Legal? no alterations to building electrical systems exist, infact, this method is MORE SAFE! than using a single 15 or 20 am oultet for a 30 amp load... |
Well, you have zero credibility with me as far as knowing safe and legal ways to power things.
What you describe is completely non-legal as per the National Electrical Code.
Pack it in. You ware wasting time and space here.
You are a newcomer here and as such have yet to demonstrate anything that would be credible in my opinion.
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 11:18:20 PM
| Peter Etheredge wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 22:05 |
Chris ol' buddy ol' pal good sir fine chap you dog you g-unit! If you are so convinced that you are correct in your electrical knowledge why bother argue on the internet about it? In fact, instead of arguing why don't you just go make some of these little do-dads and try them out! Set up a web came at your house so that we can all watch. This is your big chance to show everyone once and for all how awesome you are! Oh, and you will be doing society a huge favor by removing yourself from the gene pool when you die a horrible electrical related fatality; all while the whole wide interwebs is watching you! YOU'RE THE MAN NOW DOG! |
YEEEE HAAAAA!
peter ol buddy ol pal, I have already done this on a few occasions, not only with 120v BUT 240v! YYYEEEEE HAAAAAA!
I understand your prospective lacks the fundamental aspects of electrical theory, so I will attempt to lay out in detail, oh wait, i cant do that, because last time when I did it, it was deleted.... hmmmmm.. maybe if I lay it out for a different reason rather than a suggestion, maybe it wont be deleted, I got the pm's requesting this, so I will try it, and I understand in advance if it gets deleted
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on August 06, 2007, 11:45:32 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 22:35 | ||
lets say one breaker trips, and now you do have a single breaker supplying both circuits... so what is the WORST THING that can happen? Answer, The 2nd breaker gets overloaded and trips as well... simple enough? |
Umm, no, the worst that can happen is just exactly what Jason described: A fault condition on one circuit causing its breaker to trip, but that fault is still being fed current via the other circuit to which you have tied it. Burn, baby, burn (Disco Inferno!)
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 11:48:39 PM
The first consideration from electrical theory in this practice is that CURRENT REMAINS THE SAME IN A SERIES CIRCUIT, AND VOLTAGE REMAINS THE SAME IN A PARALLEL CIRCUIT...
by first checking the loads on the 2 candidate circuits, meaning other things plugged into either of the circuits need to be figured into the equation, like is there a microwave on that circuit? or toaster or some heat lamps or any heating device that may also be in use, and if those things wont be in use during the use of the circuit number one, then the entire circuit becomes available... If you are super cautious and never ran a stop sign in your life, or are electrically clueless, then unplug everything on these circuits...
Small things like a light or 2 can be ignored....
same checks for 2nd circuit...
Then run 2 12 awg plugs to a single junction box, or whatever one feels comfortable using, and wire the 2 plugs in parallel to the single 10 awg supply wire for serious amp...
By doing this arrangement one effectively divides the current between the 2 breakers also increasing total supply wire diameter for those hard hitting lows, less voltage drop, amp loves it....
of course the 2 outlets need to be metered for phase similarity, and polarity, only one ground needed...
if 240v is desired, take an extension cord and pick a convenient 2nd outlet near by.. using the voltage meter, check voltage between L1 on each outlet, if zero, find another, if 240v then continue to check the loads on each circuit, and do unplug them, and then you have a dedicated 240v supply...
of course one needs to take it upon themselves to check the breaker similarities and needs to consider they are not physically bussed... for the safety nuts and the people that never ran a stop sign in there life... a simple breaker swap to allow physical busing of breakers will satisfy....
This information is provided only for electrically educated individuals and not just anyone should try these things...
if there are questions as to the safety of this arrangement, then that automatically is a sign that you shouldnt do or try this....
if this information provided fills ones mind with confusion, then do not attempt...
I can not communicate driving to a pre schooler, I am not calling anyone that, its just the only example I can think of and a reasonable individual wont flop around on the floor and take offense....
This is for particular people in a particular pinch, in a particular situation, and rarely have I ever had the need for such arrangements.. most cases dont need it, its simply an option... but where its needed, its needed...
just put everything down and call the electrician, and hope for same day service is my recommendation, and dont get mad if I show up and say howdy dooodeee!
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 11:56:43 PM
| E. Lee Dickinson wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 22:45 | ||||
Umm, no, the worst that can happen is just exactly what Jason described: A fault condition on one circuit causing its breaker to trip, but that fault is still being fed current via the other circuit to which you have tied it. Burn, baby, burn (Disco Inferno!) |
YEEEE HAAA! DISCO INFERNO...
ok, where is my whip...
you say fault?
fault??
Ok lets do the abc's are you ready?
most common breakers are not associated with the word fault...
you are confusing them with gfi (ground fault interupt)..
breakers trip from too much current, there are typically and most commonly 2 types of breakers, heat sensative and current sensative....
so if one breaker trips, the other is not over rated for its wire size, and if it doesnt trip, then no problem, and it will trip before current provided from that breaker exceeds amp rating through that breaker...
if this doesnt make sense, then its time to go to school...
I give you a C for effort
Post by: chris haywood on August 06, 2007, 11:58:40 PM
| Quote: |
Well, you have zero credibility with me as far as knowing safe and legal ways to power things. Sad What you describe is completely non-legal as per the National Electrical Code. Confused Pack it in. You ware wasting time and space here. You are a newcomer here and as such have yet to demonstrate anything that would be credible in my opinion. |
Like i said, I cant exactly communicate with a preschooler how to drive a bus...
I understand your position....
brake time, eyes burning again!
nice if there are technical questions rather than whining and complaining, like i said, If you cant comprehend the technical aspects of this idea, then its not for you, no need to whine about it, is there?
Post by: Michael_Gazdziak on August 07, 2007, 12:09:14 AM
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on August 07, 2007, 12:16:33 AM
| chris haywood wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 23:56 |
you say fault? |
That's what I said, yes. You quoted me.
| Quote: |
fault?? |
Yes. F-A-U-L-T.
| Quote: |
Ok lets do the abc's are you ready? |
I can do them backwards, when drunk. Bring it.
| Quote: |
most common breakers are not associated with the word fault... you are confusing them with gfi (ground fault interupt).. |
I am not the least bit confused.
| Quote: |
breakers trip from too much current, there are typically and most commonly 2 types of breakers, heat sensative and current sensative.... |
Yes, you've just described a number of fault conditions. Good job.
| Quote: |
if this doesnt make sense, then its time to go to school... I give you a C for effort |
I've been. I learned how to spell "sensitive" and "interrupt," how to use apostrophes, and how to work with electricity.
Which school did you go to? The one that teaches yer gud speling and how to wire a single load to multiple branch circuits?
Man I hope this thread gets locked soon.. I just can't seem to control myself even though I know better!
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on August 07, 2007, 12:24:37 AM
| E. Lee Dickinson wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 00:16 |
...Man I hope this thread gets locked soon.. I just can't seem to control myself even though I know better! |
It's easy, Lee! Evan and I have already done it. See that "ignore all messages by this user" over on the right side? Right below "add to buddy list" (which I'm sure you don't want to do, even though he calls everyone his buddy
)Just like magic!
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 12:25:38 AM
| Mike Gazdziak wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 23:09 |
what was your plan for not having the potential for a live male plug with this rig? |
There are a couple of options, first if the area of the electrical outlet is questionable as far as the potential for someone pulling out the plug, and no others are available, then either something can be pressed against it, or the electrical outlet ripped out and hardwired...
unplugging problems eliminated....
Post by: David Buckley on August 07, 2007, 12:27:51 AM
| chris haywood wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 15:48 |
First, I make no claims as to the legality of this arrangement, and suggest you do not try this at home, or anywhere else for that matter unless you are a qualified electrically educated individual... |
A qualified electrically educated individual wouldn't do this as its is a multiple NEC violation, and an unqualified electrically educated individual wouldn't do it as it has a number of obvious risks that make it dangerous.
Post by: Guy Nix on August 07, 2007, 12:31:13 AM
| Mike Butler (media) wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 23:24 | ||
It's easy, Lee! Evan and I have already done it. See that "ignore all messages by this user" over on the right side? Right below "add to buddy list" (which I'm sure you don't want to do, even though he calls everyone his buddy )Just like magic! |
Well that sure reduces the size of this thread!
I too, have my first ignored user here.
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 12:31:14 AM
| Quote: |
I've been. I learned how to spell "sensitive" and "interrupt," how to use apostrophes, and how to work with electricity. Which school did you go to? The one that teaches yer gud speling and how to wire a single load to multiple branch circuits? Man I hope this thread gets locked soon.. I just can't seem to control myself even though I know better! |
are we really discussing word choice or technical details?
are you really complaining about spelling? you understood right? I bet you would complain that Einstein couldnt comb his hair or tie his shoes too, all while overlooking great technical ideas, but these are advanced, so I understand your confusion and recommend an attempt be made to further yourself, no need to bask in technical illiteracy..
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 12:35:00 AM
| Mike Butler (media) wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 23:24 | ||
It's easy, Lee! Evan and I have already done it. See that "ignore all messages by this user" over on the right side? Right below "add to buddy list" (which I'm sure you don't want to do, even though he calls everyone his buddy )Just like magic! |
of course if you cant hang, then this is the way out, but for the intellectually in depth individual, this is good stuff...
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on August 07, 2007, 12:37:27 AM
| chris haywood wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 00:31 |
I bet you would complain that Einstein couldnt comb his hair or tie his shoes too, all while overlooking great technical ideas but these are advanced, so I understand your confusion and recommend an attempt be made to further yourself, no need to bask in technical illiteracy.. |
"People who claim themselves to be misunderstood geniuses are rarely either."
Wiring up a receptacle with two plugs is your idea of 'advanced?' In which 4000 level course did they teach this at The School of Gud Spelling and Wirng?
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 12:41:33 AM
| David Buckley wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 23:27 | ||
A qualified electrically educated individual wouldn't do this as its is a multiple NEC violation, and an unqualified electrically educated individual wouldn't do it as it has a number of obvious risks that make it dangerous. |
have you ever slipped by a stop sign? some would say that is dangerous, and others would not... its all determined by who is capable of assessing the risks and addressing them,
and who is not...
it really isnt that complicated...
I already stated that if you are scared, then this is not for you... and if you think it is dangerous, then it is dangerous...
I have done this a few times over the years and no problems, because i did it right...
to comprehend what is right requires a minimum amount of education...
in life there are risks, but you decide what risks you do and dont want to take, dont jump off a cliff if you cant fly...
those who take no risks have no life
Post by: Eric Simna on August 07, 2007, 12:44:06 AM
| E. Lee Dickinson wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 00:16 |
Man I hope this thread gets locked soon.. I just can't seem to control myself even though I know better! |
I hope more than just a lock happens. Although Mac has already said he would let it ride.
Chris, you have failed to provide repeated requests for proof of YOUR education, YOUR qualifications. Why not instead of picking apart other people's qualifications, put up or shut up. Now I am calling for it now. What are YOUR qualifications. I am not adding anything to the argument of the safety of this "device" you propose because I would never trust anything of that sort with my life, let alone anyone else's.
You have stated that people are in interpreting your words incorrectly. That is EXACTLY why people do not give electrical advice over the internet. Do you want to be the one responsible for one moron saying "Chris Heywood said it would work" and kills himself attempting to implement this monster?
I spent 45 minutes reading. I had to add my 2 cents.
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on August 07, 2007, 12:49:34 AM
| chris haywood wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 00:41 |
I already stated that if you are scared, then this is not for you... and if you think it is dangerous, then it is dangerous... |
And if you don't think it's dangerous, then it isn't.
Your stop sign example is... about on par with the rest of your examples. No one ever t-boned a car they knew was coming or plowed into a pedestrian they knew was there.
I've gotten ticketed for running a stop sign as I bet many of us have. I very calmly and politely explained to the judge that I was able to see clearly in all directions, and made an informed decision that it was safe to proceed:
"Son, that's not your decision to make."
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 12:50:07 AM
| E. Lee Dickinson wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 23:37 | ||
"People who claim themselves to be misunderstood geniuses are rarely either." Wiring up a receptacle with two plugs is your idea of 'advanced?' In which 4000 level course did they teach this at The School of Gud Spelling and Wirng? |
Genius i am not, but the moral of the story is the same, this focus is on a lower level, focusing on things like spelling, missing the point... in this case, there is similarity, but I guess I need to explain that too...
purhaps you could explain how to instruct the preschooler how to drive the bus?
impossible?
well now you see my position...
I will try again, maybe the problem is that all you see is wiring the receptacle in parallel and nothing beyond?
if this is where your understanding stops, then these ideas are not for you, but beyond your level, its ok, dont take offense, we all have areas in which we are less educated, and others are more educated...
I accept that fact as well, and happily live with it.. but if you really want to learn this method, and all of this information isnt enough, then its not your time yet....
Post by: Toby Mills on August 07, 2007, 12:55:49 AM
I think what everyone is trying to say is that we don't want you to post advice like this here.
Just because something might work, doesn't make it a good idea.
This forum is about best practice, safe and effective operation of equipment. Your method does not meet these criteria.
There are other methods for achieving the same result that are safer and more reliable such as calling a certified electrician and getting them to put in a new circuit rated correctly for the intended application or tying in a proper temporary tail set into the board.
While your solution might work some of the time, there are too many 'gotchas' with it that could lead to damage to equipment or persons.
Some of the issues highlighted include:
- If someone unlplugs one side of the Y then the prongs would be live. I've picked up a cable like this before in my hand because some idiot wired two male ends onto an extension cord. I still have the burn marks to prove it and am lucky they didn't kill me.
- If the two points are on different phases then a meter might still read that the points are wired correctly, I don't need to explain what something like this could do to a power amp.
- If someone picks up your cable and doesn't know any of this stuff and uses it like an extension lead, its a death trap waiting to happen.
This thread has gotten nasty because you have not acknowleged the faults in the approach. These are very good technically valid reasons why using your method is a really really bad idea.
Chris
Yes you are right, your method might work.
But it still doesn't make it a good idea to do it.
Keep ideas like this to yourself and use them yourself if you really want to risk it, but please don't post dangerous practices on a public forum designed for informing new and less experienced persons on how to overcome common problems.
If this question was in an exam what would your answer be:
You have an appliance that draws a 30amp load and only have 20amp points available, what is the safest and most reliable method of powering the device?
a) Wire up a Y cable and plug it into two power points.
b) Replace the breaker with a 30amp breaker and hold your breath.
c) Tie in a temporary set of tails into the board with a 30amp breaker and correct gauge wire.
d) Wire in a new circuit with the correct gauge wire and a 30amp breaker.
Do you think if you answered A you would get that question right in the exam?
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 12:58:17 AM
| Eric Simna wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 23:44 | ||
I hope more than just a lock happens. Although Mac has already said he would let it ride. Chris, you have failed to provide repeated requests for proof of YOUR education, YOUR qualifications. Why not instead of picking apart other people's qualifications, put up or shut up. Now I am calling for it now. What are YOUR qualifications. I am not adding anything to the argument of the safety of this "device" you propose because I would never trust anything of that sort with my life, let alone anyone else's. You have stated that people are in interpreting your words incorrectly. That is EXACTLY why people do not give electrical advice over the internet. Do you want to be the one responsible for one moron saying "Chris Heywood said it would work" and kills himself attempting to implement this monster? I spent 45 minutes reading. I had to add my 2 cents. |
eric ol buddy!
I will put up, but just a little more time first, as we can see, no one has been able to prove me wrong, doesnt that alone speak anything?
I also laid out the qualifications to attempt such a concept...
so if someone knows whats going on, they will say, why didnt i think of that, and if they dont, then they shouldnt try it at all...
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 01:06:06 AM
I think ....../quote]
you missed many important points in the posts of simple warnings... as well as information about the work around in a pinch, no double male end cords are used... and a meter will not lie and give a correct reading? what is a correct reading?
I give you a C- for concern and sincerity, but you didnt read the book before answering test questions... thats what brought it down...
there is danger everywhere, its up to the individuals own discretion on how to deal with day to day dangers, how complicated is it to decide if something is to electrically advanced to attempt?
remember, lets at least give some credibility to the individuals present here.. as i do... information is valuable, if someone can hurt themselves with it, does everyone have to do without?
sounds like socialism... live day to day at your own risk..
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 01:12:37 AM
| E. Lee Dickinson wrote on Mon, 06 August 2007 23:49 | ||
And if you don't think it's dangerous, then it isn't. Your stop sign example is... about on par with the rest of your examples. No one ever t-boned a car they knew was coming or plowed into a pedestrian they knew was there. I've gotten ticketed for running a stop sign as I bet many of us have. I very calmly and politely explained to the judge that I was able to see clearly in all directions, and made an informed decision that it was safe to proceed: "Son, that's not your decision to make." |
but son, that is your decision to make, are you made for the stop sign or is the stop sign made for you....
if you exist for the stop sign, then it is not your decision to make, if the stop sign exists for the people, then it is your decision to make....
It appears the given circumstances resulted in the wrong decision...
off to bed for me for now....
Post by: Eric Simna on August 07, 2007, 01:13:17 AM
| chris haywood wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 00:58 |
I will put up, but just a little more time first, as we can see, no one has been able to prove me wrong, doesnt that alone speak anything? I also laid out the qualifications to attempt such a concept... so if someone knows whats going on, they will say, why didnt i think of that, and if they dont, then they shouldnt try it at all... |
Talk means NOTHING. If someone comes up to you in street clothes and tells you "I'm a cop, you have the right to remain silent..." are you going to believe him before he shows his badge?
Is the theory sound? I can't say yes or no. Is it safe to be using when there are other variables around (aka, other people), HELL NO. Please stop giving advice that if followed is VERY POSSIBLY A KILLER.
My guess, you are a punk 18yr old who has been doing this in his high school theatre for 4 years and thinks he can run laps around the big dogs. When you get maced for being too rambunctious I hope you cry for a long time. Am I a big dog? Nope, far from it. But I do know when to show the respect they deserve. You apparently need to learn that.
Also, since you don't have it listed in your profile. How old are you? And where are you located? It would be a great bit of information for all of us on the LAB that want to make sure our gigs are not compromised by your unsafe practice.
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on August 07, 2007, 01:25:39 AM
| chris haywood wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 01:12 |
but son, that is your decision to make, are you made for the stop sign or is the stop sign made for you.... |
Hahahahha. Straight out of the course description for "Filisophie 3401."
This thread is just begging to be illustrated. It is the pure definition of comical. If I could draw, I would do it!
Post by: Toby Mills on August 07, 2007, 01:33:11 AM
| Quote: |
you missed many important points in the posts of simple warnings... |
Yes, I'll admit I've struggled to understand much of what you have said so far. I don't think thats because I am technically inept. Perhaps you could enlighten me with a picture or photo of your device so I can understand it fully. What I have understood so far just sounds downright dangerous. Now if I'm someone who knows what they are doing, imagine the crazy ideas that you are putting into the heads of people that don't.
Please explain it throughly and properly and safely, or don't explain it at all.
| Quote: |
there is danger everywhere, its up to the individuals own discretion on how to deal with day to day dangers, |
No its not up to discretion, you have a moral and legal obligation to make everything you do as safe as practically possible so that in the event someone else uses your workmanship they are not putting their lives at risk. You may be prepared to take a risk with your own life but you have no right whatsoever to put others in danger.
Your idea isn't that unique, I've been sitting in front of a underated powerpoint before and thought, hmm I wonder if I could just join two circuits together in parallel.
BUT then that little warning bell goes off in my head that stops me from executing really dumb ideas and it says.
STOP YOU IDIOT!!!!
DO IT PROPERLY!!!
DON'T BE LAZY!!!
YOU COULD KILL SOMEONE OR YOURSELF!!!
Some people don't have that warning bell.
Those people fall into one of two categories.
Those that are just learning and rely on forums like this for advice.
Those that are complete and utter idiots.
Now my concern is in stopping the people that are complete and utter idiots from educating the people who are still learning.
Maybe you do have that warning bell.
Maybe you have figured out a completely safe and reliable method for doing this and you are a genius.
If you are, then prove to me that you are not a complete and utter idiot by posting a detailed and comprehendable method that includes diagarams.
Post by: Mike Butler (media) on August 07, 2007, 01:52:10 AM
Well, those who are bored or shut-in can have their fun with it; two years ago when I was in the hospital and desperate for something besides "Will & Grace" (old re-runs at that
), I could have used some silliness like this. Now I just don't have time. See ya, guys.
Post by: Joe Larsen on August 07, 2007, 02:01:19 AM
http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040319l.jpg
Post by: Mark Dawson on August 07, 2007, 05:46:52 AM
Then we have this clownshoes who decides to still argue that a twin male mains Y-lead is acceptable to exist, and worse to use it in a show environment.
For sure, you *could* make a y-lead with two males and one female. You *could* plug it in, connect your load then energise it. If you were lucky it would work. A++ for being a cleverdick.
NEWSFLASH!!
If you ever created this device you are awarded a F--. Only a complete moron would create such a lead, and only an idiot would suggest such a stupid idea in a forum where alot of people go to further their education and get relevent ideas and facts. Why? Because for the 10 percent of the time you are sucessfull there are 90% of the other times when you are dead, or facing criminal action as someone else is dead. How often have other people helped packout? Does everyone in the venue and crew know how to avoid this death-trap? Is it labelled and locked away?? NO, as from the nature of your previous posts it is probably just in those wall outlets behind the guitar amp. What happens when your passing doofus has to plug in his phone charger?
Laws exist for a reason. Codes exist for a reason. If you can't follow these then you shouldn't be in this industry or in this forum.
This thread was annoying yet worth winding you up over this morning. I even jammed a jack plug on a mains lead and took a photo. But at this time of the night your disregard for common sense is shocking. You are the sort of person that creates havoc for our industry.
I have had a rack of Labs go down two hours before showtime. Because some idiot created an outlet without a neutral.
Just goes to show, never trust what you see, and it's worth carrying one of those test neon screwdrivers in you're pocket.
Too all the other professionals on this forum, keep up the good work:)
Post by: Scott Smith on August 07, 2007, 07:41:08 AM
Post by: Jason Lavoie on August 07, 2007, 08:45:46 AM
without having to go into what is safe or legal. 9 times out of 10, the easiest way also turns out to be the safest.
Jason
Post by: Bob Dore on August 07, 2007, 09:09:46 AM
Bob.
Post by: Tom Reid on August 07, 2007, 09:12:37 AM
Casual readers, as everyone has said DO NOT follow Mr. Haywoods advice.
I don't believe I read through that whole mess.
lol
It's still better 'n Oprah with my coffee.
Does anyone see poster similarities with the power amp thread recently moved to the basement?
Post by: John Ward on August 07, 2007, 10:12:07 AM
Let's do without some of this 'creative genius'.
Post by: Brad Weber on August 07, 2007, 11:38:42 AM
Post by: Scott Smith on August 07, 2007, 12:31:33 PM
| Brad Weber wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 11:38 |
...copies of his posts to the relevant authorities certainly might put a stop to such nonsense... |
Nevermind...comment retracted.
Post by: John Birchman, CTS on August 07, 2007, 12:55:19 PM
Post by: Tim McCulloch on August 07, 2007, 12:55:57 PM
| Scott Smith wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 11:31 | ||
ARE YOU FOR REAL?? |
Well, young Haywood is promoting unsafe, code-violating practices.... while in the USA that's not prohibited 'speech' the *practices* he advocates are prohibited. If he's claiming to be a licenced electrician, he can put up or shut up, but should be reported to the AHJ for advocated illegal practices. Again, it might be legal for him to say things... but in my town, any electrician on record for such would receive much closer offical inspection of his work.
I suppose it all comes down to how much time and attention we'll devote to Haywood's trolling, but I'd be interested in knowing a little more about him, specifically where he's located. If we really want to know, Ernie the Webmaster can check the server logs and get the IP address(s) he posted from. From those his geographic location can be identified. I don't want his home address, I'd be happy to know what city and state so I can avoid anyone in that area named with his name.
There's a Usenet group for Haywood. There's always Harmony Central. There are lots of other places for him... But not for me, here. He's in the IggyBin...
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
Post by: Chris Hindle on August 07, 2007, 01:51:44 PM
Quite easily. IF one of the neutrals got lifted in your "bastard Box" adapter, you then have the POTENTIAL of full current from 2 breakers overloading the remaining neutral.
If this happens at YOUR house, tough shit.
If this happens in the local church basement, how do you BS your way out of your meeting with the fire marshall ?
IF you are a licensed sparky, what the hell gives you the right to decide which parts of the NEC to ignore, or worse, decide it's OK, just for now, to "do it my way".
In theory, yes, it will work. Part of being a "professional" is trying to anticipate the many ways that things can go wrong, and taking the steps to safegaurd your clients, your rig, and yourself.
In practice, God always seems to find a better fool to show just how (not) foolproof something really is.
Chris.
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 02:12:42 PM
I see much confusion has appeared in my absence... I read all of the posts sense last night, and, most of them are regarding safety... So I will address that first, and then help enlighten each on individually...
It appears I need to break things way down for clarity, so I will do that here...
First, SAFETY
The level of safety is directly proportional to the level of knowledge obtained for the particular task at hand... (typically 'professionals' already know this)
Now for an elementary example boys and girls....
It is safe for my wife to drive the car....
but it is NOT SAFE for my son to drive the car...
get the picture?
your knowledge dictates the level of safety, AND THAT INCLUDES THE SAFETY OF THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU...
Am I really having to explain such fundamental principals to highly educated professional individuals?
Is this really that big of a mystery?
If these ideas are banned because they are unsafe, then the entire internet should be banned as well...
Just because there is a lack of understanding regarding this post, doesnt make it sound by vomiting unrelated nonsense...
I heard it said many times, the majority says thus, and therefore the majority must be right, well this concept is a flawed one...
in a preschool classroom, I can argue all day about how to drive the school bus, but I am certainly NOT the majority, and this elementary tale proves that just because the majority take a position, by no means assures the educated accuracy of that position....
It is obvious from the posts, that there isnt much knowledge present about electricity itself, so this fact alone makes the preschool tale a very applicable one...
we have children that have got there fingers stuck in the window, others got there foot stuck in the door, and one even fell out the back door because some bonehead preschooler left it unlocked, doesnt mean they know anything about the bus, nor how to drive...
Just look over the posts, you will find that I am once again correct... There is MINIMAL electrical knowledge present in 99% of the posts, and when I say minimal, we are talking almost zero.... just read them and look them over for yourself...
and then ask yourself, who's side am I on? The side of knowledge?
or the side of the preschool classroom students that had bad experiences on there bus?
now todays responses will not be as quick as yesturdays because I have more to do today, but, I will respond, and pm's now are on the bottom of the list, I will get to the public posts first, then the pm's after I finish the public ones...
and from the looks of things, pm's might be addressed by the end of the day...
Thanks!
Post by: Dave Barto on August 07, 2007, 02:27:31 PM
| chris haywood wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 13:12 |
The level of safety is directly proportional to the level of knowledge obtained for the particular task at hand... (typically 'professionals' already know this) |
| chris haywood wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 13:12 |
Am I really having to explain such fundamental principals to highly educated professional individuals? |
No, you don't have to explain this to us. But as of 2 minutes ago there was 16114 registered users. Quite a few (I am guessing the majority) don't have much experience with power. So if one of them happens to read your post and then kills himself with an illegally made adaptor, whose fault is it?
Just my 2 cents.
Post by: James Lawford on August 07, 2007, 03:01:03 PM
The level of safety is directly proportional to the level of knowledge obtained for the particular task at hand... (typically 'professionals' already know this)
Now for an elementary example boys and girls....
It is safe for my wife to drive the car....
but it is NOT SAFE for my son to drive the car...
get the picture?
your knowledge dictates the level of safety, AND THAT INCLUDES THE SAFETY OF THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU...
[/quote]
So would you say that you never speed in your car? You have obtained the knowledge (hopefully) that speeding can be dangerous and illegal. This doesn't stop many people doing so and killing many people a day worldwide.
Knowledge not applied means nothing. Now I know about as much about electricity as I can write on my hand, that's why I gave up Physics after GCSE. If I want to do anything with electricity I go to a proper wireman and get them to do it. I also know nothing about American electrical code or your funny connectors but respect all that others have said regarding your particular solution to this problem. I suggest you listen to them too!
Best regards,
James Lawford
(How on earth do I quote on this forum?!)
Post by: Chris Davis on August 07, 2007, 03:06:54 PM
| Brad Weber wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 11:38 |
I'd love to let it go Mac, but electrical systems are serious business and treating them in anything less than a serious manner, much less giving unqualified advice, is dangerous. Does anybody know if Chris is a registered Electrical PE or licensed Electrician and where he lives? Some complaints for practicing without a license and representing one's self as a qualified expert in electrical systems or copies of his posts to the relevant authorities certainly might put a stop to such nonsense. Not trying to be a jerk, but unfortunately some people apparently have to learn the hard way. |
Let's say the worst happens and somebody gets injured or killed as a result of this thread. The authorities would first pursue the poster's ISP logging info from PSW.
The authorities would then aggressively pursue the poster's ISP. Either a court order or lawsuit directed toward the ISP (depending on circumtance) would guarantee an expedient response. The ISP would want nothing to do with the poster or his problems, and he would soon be turned in and taken into custody. Happens every day.
Post by: Nathan Vanderslice on August 07, 2007, 03:23:13 PM
If you want to gain any respect at all at this point, get over yourself and admit that you are wrong. If you are a knowledgeable electrician, you know that what you have suggested is unethical and dangerous.
Post by: Tim Brackett on August 07, 2007, 03:36:28 PM
I get your point that your adapter can be used without incident under tightly controlled circumstances....but there circumstances that all the knowledge in the world is not going to prevent. There is no way you can insure that one of the neutrals does not become open, especially when you are talking about the typical household edison socket. When it does there is nothing to prevent over current on the remaining neutral, nor will there be any signs of a problem until there is smoke.
You, Mr. Haywood are hereby proven wrong on the grounds that no amount of knowledge or understanding of electrical wiring or theory can insure 100% reliability of both neutral circuits.
Post by: Vince Byrne on August 07, 2007, 03:46:17 PM
| James Lawford wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 14:01 |
So would you say that you never speed in your car? You have obtained the knowledge (hopefully) that speeding can be dangerous and illegal. This doesn't stop many people doing so and killing many people a day worldwide. |
He isn't saying "Just about everyone goes 10mph over on the freeway". More like "Take that turn at 80! I do it all the time!"
And at this point he's just seeing how much noise he can make.
"I learned long ago never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." ~Cyrus Ching
| Quote: |
(How on earth do I quote on this forum?!) |
The command format is |the_command] at the beginning and [/the_command] at the end. You had an extra slash in the openning quote tag. (Replace "|" with open bracket. This is hard to show within a message.)
Peace
Vince
Post by: Tom Bourke on August 07, 2007, 04:13:04 PM
The simple truth is even if you know enough not to unplug one end some one else may not. This could include staff, children, unknowing person looking to charge there camera, what ever. You are only one person and are not able to watch your adapter all the time.
Then there is the math involved. Current will follow all paths back to the source. The proportion of current flow in each path is determined by the inverse ratio of resistance. It does not matter if it is .5 vs 1 ohm or 5 ohm vs 10 ohm, the current flowing in the lower resistant path will be higher. Now lets say there is a corroded or loose connection in the neutral some place. With every outlet or junction box in line the probability goes up. it does not take much to make lots of heat. Once that joint gets hot enough to open or just increase resistance a bit more the other neutral in your adapter gets hit even harder. Another potential failure point is the wall outlet it self. The contacts may be worn out, the plug cracked behind the face, or damaged in some other way. I keep this on my desk as a reminder and I hand it around when teaching kids about the dangers of electricity.
BTW if I ever see one of those plugs in use I would not hesitate to start dialing up inspectors and police.
Post by: Evan Kirkendall on August 07, 2007, 04:31:34 PM
STOP FEEDING THIS THREAD!!!!
Mac is not playing idiot police on this one. Lets grow up, move on and stop it ourselves. We've got a hard headed, ego filled high schooler trying to sound like an expert. Move on, leave this thread to fall to the bottom of the page and never return!
Evan
Post by: Scott Smith on August 07, 2007, 04:34:57 PM
| Evan Kirkendall wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 16:31 |
STOP FEEDING THIS THREAD!!!! |
AMEN! Chris is a child in NEED of attention! Let him get it at his daycare center... NOT HERE!
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 04:45:16 PM
| Dave Barto wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 13:27 | ||||
I am sorry for having to pipe in but this is the only time I will, I am sick of hearing this. I haven't put Chris on ignore yet because I am still waiting to hear a good explination of why he is quailifyed. I am not a qualifyed electrician, nor will I ever be. I admit this. But I do know the reasoning behind why this adaptor will and will not work. I have also been shocked with 220 and it really hurt, and I am lucky nothing worse happened. After that, I have always hired someone who is qualifyed and can show me proof of it to do my electrical work.
No, you don't have to explain this to us. But as of 2 minutes ago there was 16114 registered users. Quite a few (I am guessing the majority) don't have much experience with power. So if one of them happens to read your post and then kills himself with an illegally made adaptor, whose fault is it? Just my 2 cents. |
If Ruger makes a gun, and it is used to kill someone, who's fault is it?
The gun manufacturer?
same principal applies here, hello?
I recommend following logic and reasoning in responses, rather than jumping in to the polluted pool of emotional distraction...
Post by: Steve Oldridge on August 07, 2007, 04:49:52 PM
Why... I just had to find out the ENDING !! It's like a soap opera
FWIW - trolls can't, if you don't reply.
-Steve
I'll 2nd Evans approach.
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 04:54:30 PM
| Jason Lavoie wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 07:45 |
I just have to say that IF you ARE as electrically knowledgeable and experienced as you claim to be, then scrounging up a few feet of cable and wiring in a temporary (properly sized) outlet should be faster, easier, and cheaper than doing what you're proposing.. without having to go into what is safe or legal. 9 times out of 10, the easiest way also turns out to be the safest. Jason |
This is exactly correct, I run a wire right out of the breaker box with a stolen breaker, sshhhhh.. this may be a new can of worms...
but in some cases, the breaker panel is no where near where it needs to be...
Mr Jason gets a B+ good job
I am still attempting to answer each post individually, and I need to go back a little further... for now back to work and then I come back and do some more...
and the pm's list may not be able to be addressed until tomorrow from the looks of things... there is a load of posts, each one of importance, as long as there is at least a slight amount of relevance... Notice all of the "stop contributing to this post" messages, I guess some of the pm's are demanding a more prompt response, but get put to the bottom with each new post...
thanks!
Post by: Chris Lund on August 07, 2007, 05:04:43 PM
"in the end, it doesn't even matter.."
Reading this thread got me nowhere closer to any substantial knowledge I can store away for later, other than this...
$100 for a licensed electrician to come in, and install some sort of "audio professionals only" access panel, possibly with either cam-locs or locking nemas.
That $100 can possibly save you millions in wrongful death suites and loss of property.
I would think that this also might help "lock you in" for future gigs at that location if the owner knew that you went through the extra trouble to protect his establishment. He might even insist that you be the only sound co. that is allowed to run in there...
Just a thought...
Like insurance... legislate to make it mandatory, and you will make more money as an insurance company...
Howver, I did enjoy the banter...
Post by: Nathan Vanderslice on August 07, 2007, 05:18:40 PM
| Quote: |
If Ruger makes a gun, and it is used to kill someone, who's fault is it? The gun manufacturer? |
Not quite Chris. Okay, someone goes out and buys a luger, and then goes to a supposedly qualified professional who either isn't really qualified, or doesn't teach them the proper and commonly accepted practices. As a result of that, the gun owner hurts or kills himself or someone else. Now who is responsible?
The point here is that you shouldn't advise anyone on this forum to do anything that you wouldn't sign off on if you were on site. If an electrical inspector passes on a job that is clearly not to code, they are then liable for any injuries, or damages that are a result of faulty wiring that he approved. Likewise when a group comes into a venue to run a production, and taps into a major panel or sub-panel, it is in their interest to do it entirely to code. If they do it wrong and something happens as a result of that, they're the ones with their heads on the chopping block.
Once again, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't advise people with methods that are not of standard/legal practice. If you want to work this way, that's your choice, but don't give bad advice that could injure or kill someone.
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 05:48:15 PM
| Eric Simna wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 00:13 | ||
Talk means NOTHING. If someone comes up to you in street clothes and tells you "I'm a cop, you have the right to remain silent..." are you going to believe him before he shows his badge? Is the theory sound? I can't say yes or no. Is it safe to be using when there are other variables around (aka, other people), HELL NO. Please stop giving advice that if followed is VERY POSSIBLY A KILLER. My guess, you are a punk 18yr old who has been doing this in his high school theatre for 4 years and thinks he can run laps around the big dogs. When you get maced for being too rambunctious I hope you cry for a long time. Am I a big dog? Nope, far from it. But I do know when to show the respect they deserve. You apparently need to learn that. Also, since you don't have it listed in your profile. How old are you? And where are you located? It would be a great bit of information for all of us on the LAB that want to make sure our gigs are not compromised by your unsafe practice. |
another one of these? the manufacturer of the gun killed a person, not the person who made the choice to shoot someone?
big dogs? I call it like it is, If a big doggy wants to play and bark a big bark, then the big doggy gets strung up and hung by his own leash...
It appears part of the problem is 'respect that they deserve'
Its one thing when one deserves respect, and another when it is demanded, as you have suggested...
if I respect an individual, that is because they have earned it... I always start with giving the benefit of the doubt, first I give respect to all, and if its less than that, then its because it has been shown as unworthy placement for respect.. My respect doesnt come cheap, If i respect you, then you are a respectable individual, if I dont, then there is a reason for it, because I am a reasonable individual....
Of course there will be people saying I am not reasonable, but before this is done, say how...
this way, I am not having to attempt to reason with unreason ability... for example, emotional reactions for the most part do not contain reason, this is a big part of our little problem....
remember, we are talking about electrical, if we want education on things like reasonability, understanding, and things like that, I am sure we can change course, after all, we are just hanging out in the lounge...
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 05:53:48 PM
| Quote: |
Perhaps you could enlighten me with a picture or photo of your device so I can understand it fully. What I have understood so far just sounds downright dangerous. Now if I'm someone who knows what they are doing, imagine the crazy ideas that you are putting into the heads of people that don't. Please explain it throughly and properly and safely, or don't explain it at all. |
Part of the qualifications are that, if this cant be understood, then this should not be done... If I draw it, I am only making things worse by making it easier for the clueless...
Why would you suggest me to do something everyone is complaining about....
remember, the manufacturer of the gun doesnt shoot people, people shoot people....
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 05:56:15 PM
| Joe Larsen wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 01:01 |
The context is different, but the principle is the same. http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2004/20040319l.jpg |
This is really educational, not one thing about the topic itself, just whining again.... is this the technical depth of this post?
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 05:58:33 PM
| Mark Dawson wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 04:46 |
So I've been watching this thread and posting the odd comment. All the educated, experienced and mature posters on this forum have all given the same answer. Nice work guys, as every good point has been raised. Lets all do a show together sometime it would be a very cruisy day. |
here we go again, a position taken by observing majority, rather than knowledge... the preschool effect in action... No knowledge present once again...
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 06:02:52 PM
| Scott Smith wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 06:41 |
Do you still hear a "gnat" buzzing around here? You know what they say about arguing with a fool.. |
Scott ol buddy ol pal!
Yes I know, thanks for reminding me...
here is the full saying...
when attempting to communicate wisdom or knowledge to a fool, all you get is complaining and wise cracks, but give the information to a wise man, and he will appreciate you....
Well mr scott, I say today you get an A.... good job!
Post by: Eric Simna on August 07, 2007, 06:08:04 PM
PUT UP OR SHUT UP
Post by: chris haywood on August 07, 2007, 06:10:57 PM
| Bob Dore wrote on Tue, 07 August 2007 08:09 |
This thread is unbelievable. It has to be a (not very funny) joke. Is this for real? Bob. |
Bob ol buddy!
there are many forms of great information contained in this post, you just have to expand your intellectual depths and bring yourself beyond the day to day human nature of emotional reactions, to learn many things...
for example, even if you dont know anything about electricity, you can learn how to swat gnats, string up big dogs by there own leashes, and straight spank the clueless by exposing cloaked ignorance made of the material called bad experiences caused by other clueless individuals...