ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Scott Olewiler on December 15, 2013, 09:15:44 AM
-
I've only been doing sound for other bands for a couple of months and last night something happened that just set me back. I do the sound check, the band launches into it's first number and I tweaked things a bit but but the initial mix is super clear and I think an excellent starting point. Other than the vocals being a little hot, the mix is great.
The band finishes it's 1st song I see a lady walk up to the band and I hear the lead singer tell her "we have no control over that" and of course I'm thinking she's complaining it's too loud and now I'm waiting for it. She hurries over to me as the band is starting the next number and she start to tell me that she's been following the band for a long time and she's the guitar players girlfriend and that first song was the worst they've ever sounded. Of course I'm polite and ask what she thinks doesn't sound right, and of course she can't tell me other than to just reinforce how bad it is.
I'm flabbergasted as I really think this is the clearest mix I've had to date and it's the 2nd time I've worked with this band and they heaped tons of praise on me the last time I did their sound. Only thing I can think of is that the mix was so clear she may have actually been hearing what the band really sounded like for the first time, warts and all. I mean their shortcomings, especially in the vocals, were apparent. Is it possible to have a mix too clear?
-
Was this at a bar?
-
I've only been doing sound for other bands for a couple of months and last night something happened that just set me back. I do the sound check, the band launches into it's first number and I tweaked things a bit but but the initial mix is super clear and I think an excellent starting point. Other than the vocals being a little hot, the mix is great.
The band finishes it's 1st song I see a lady walk up to the band and I hear the lead singer tell her "we have no control over that" and of course I'm thinking she's complaining it's too loud and now I'm waiting for it. She hurries over to me as the band is starting the next number and she start to tell me that she's been following the band for a long time and she's the guitar players girlfriend and that first song was the worst they've ever sounded. Of course I'm polite and ask what she thinks doesn't sound right, and of course she can't tell me other than to just reinforce how bad it is.
I'm flabbergasted as I really think this is the clearest mix I've had to date and it's the 2nd time I've worked with this band and they heaped tons of praise on me the last time I did their sound. Only thing I can think of is that the mix was so clear she may have actually been hearing what the band really sounded like for the first time, warts and all. I mean their shortcomings, especially in the vocals, were apparent. Is it possible to have a mix too clear?
Her opinion is based on her being able to hear the other members of the band. It's a fairly common occurrence.
-
Her opinion is based on her being able to hear the other members of the band. It's a fairly common occurrence.
Oddly enough she was sitting with the other guitar player's wife and (the first lady) assured me that she also thought it sounded bad. It was a private club, but for all intents and purposes, it was a bar.
-
Was the band any good? Sometimes when the band sucks and they have been playing on crap sound systems, the crap systems get loud, but the lack of clarity covers up how bad the band is. Perhaps you let her hear what they actually sounded like.
I'm not particularly interested in what any girlfriend/boyfriend/wife/husband, etc of the band thinks beyond placating them if necessary. It happens often.
Like the one time we had an ibma award winning bluegrass band and the wife of the bass player kept telling everyone that her husband wasn't out in front of the mix like he should be....
-
Next time it happens, step away from the console and tell the drunk lady to mix!
-
On the other end of the spectrum, sometimes a band member will tell us before the show, "hey my wife is going to make a bunch of suggestions you should ignore all of them, if you tell her you did it she won't know the difference" and smile sheepishly....
-
Yep I've had it happen to me and I just ignore it. The world is filled with critics who don't know a thing of which they speak. If you truly believe you were on your game and there is no validity to the comments.........politely ignore them.
I have an annual event I've been doing for about 5 years with a large polished group. In my first year, I had a number of comments during rehearsals about the mix. As the genre of music was new to me, I did my best to accommodate the requests. The next year, the requests started getting STUPID I informed the leader that if he wanted me to continue doing their sound, the requests needed to stop. They did and for the past few years they have been nothing but happy. My position with this is: You hired me to do a job, if I'm not working out for you find someone else. However don't come to my board with a list of bitches. I'm always open to communication but I'm not receptive to being treated like a rookie. I don't tell you how to play your instrument, don't tell me how to mix (unless you're Dave Rat or George Martin)
-
Oddly enough she was sitting with the other guitar player's wife and (the first lady) assured me that she also thought it sounded bad. It was a private club, but for all intents and purposes, it was a bar.
Did you listen where they were sitting? Depending on the room, system, etc. where they were listening may have sounded dramatically different than it did at the mix position.
-
When I mix everyone always makes a point out of telling me how great it sounds, especially the guitar players' girlfriends. They always say how nice it is to hear all the musicians as well as the guitar and they never ask me to turn them up.
Oh wait a minute....is this Earth? Never mind. :o
-
Her opinion is based on her being able to hear the other members of the band. It's a fairly common occurrence.
And that's the problem. Girlfriend want's her guy out front and on top off everything else (Benetars hubby syndrome). When people walk up like that just tell them thanks, I'm working on it. Then move a fader that has no purpose, wink, and wait for the smile.
-
At my 'home club' I had a patron tell me it was "the worst" the club had ever ever sounded, followed by another one who told me it was "the best" they'd heard the club.
Seriously, this actually happened. Maybe your mix sounded bad, maybe it didn't, but I've found it hard to gain actionable insight from certain crowd members either. The best I ever learn about "when it sounds good" is by watching other people mix. Generally going to shows, or at particular venues it can be helpful to see what the crowds at that venue sometimes expect.
-
If this happens again, go to an empty channel and start twisting knobs and tell the person you just fixed the problem
-
At my 'home club' I had a patron tell me it was "the worst" the club had ever ever sounded, followed by another one who told me it was "the best" they'd heard the club.
Seriously, this actually happened. Maybe your mix sounded bad, maybe it didn't, but I've found it hard to gain actionable insight from certain crowd members either. The best I ever learn about "when it sounds good" is by watching other people mix. Generally going to shows, or at particular venues it can be helpful to see what the crowds at that venue sometimes expect.
My favorite is the parent that comes running up from the crowd to tell me they can't hear the keyboards. I try to find out when they couldn't hear the keyboards. Turns out it was while I was doing a silent line check in the headphones and the mains weren't even on.
At another band showcase the music school owner/music director comes up complaining he can't hear the keyboards. I said he wasn't playing much but when he did it was the same level as the other instruments. He insists on more so I bump it up about a db. The keyboard hits his solo part and blows everyone else away. Sure enough the music director comes running up again, now he is too loud. Dude...I know that but I am sitting here talking to you rather than fixing it.
And there was that theater show in New Jersey where they were lining up to tell me what was wrong before the band even started. Did you notice I made three trips through the crowd to the stage during the first song because the stage hand was unable to patch 16 numbered xors back into the FOH snake in the same order (numerical) that they were in during soundcheck.
Or the outdoor festival for 7500 people where the lady sitting 10 feet in front of 6 double 18 subs insisted that we needed to change the level for the other 7494 people rather than having her group move away from them.
I hate mixing in a booth, but sometimes it is nice to have a door to close.
-
My favorite is the parent that comes running up from the crowd to tell me they can't hear the keyboards. I try to find out when they couldn't hear the keyboards. Turns out it was while I was doing a silent line check in the headphones and the mains weren't even on.
1. I field flack for the "mix" when I'm doing a radio remote and there's not a local sound system for the acoustic musicians. Mics for radio only.
2. Old lady complains that the drums are too loud, is informed that there are no mics on the drums and says, "Well, put some mics on them and TURN THEM DOWN."
#2 my all-time favorite.
-
1. I field flack for the "mix" when I'm doing a radio remote and there's not a local sound system for the acoustic musicians. Mics for radio only.
2. Old lady complains that the drums are too loud, is informed that there are no mics on the drums and says, "Well, put some mics on them and TURN THEM DOWN."
#2 my all-time favorite.
I guess if it is a right handed drummer you could find a left handed drummer to match and invert the polarity on one of the drum sets.
-
1. I field flack for the "mix" when I'm doing a radio remote and there's not a local sound system for the acoustic musicians. Mics for radio only.
2. Old lady complains that the drums are too loud, is informed that there are no mics on the drums and says, "Well, put some mics on them and TURN THEM DOWN."
#2 my all-time favorite.
I heard a good one last weekend.
Woman comes up to FOH and says " I am the guitar player's wife and he needs to be turned up".
The FOH tech responds "Oh, I was just over at the bar and a woman who said she was his girlfriend said it sounded great..."
-
Woman comes up to FOH and says " I am the guitar player's wife and he needs to be turned up".
The FOH tech responds "Oh, I was just over at the bar and a woman who said she was his girlfriend said it sounded great..."
Priceless! Thanks.
-
2. Old lady complains that the drums are too loud, is informed that there are no mics on the drums and says, "Well, put some mics on them and TURN THEM DOWN."
#2 my all-time favorite.
Amazing. I wish it did work that way..:
-
I've only been doing sound for other bands for a couple of months and last night something happened that just set me back. I do the sound check, the band launches into it's first number and I tweaked things a bit but but the initial mix is super clear and I think an excellent starting point. Other than the vocals being a little hot, the mix is great.
The band finishes it's 1st song I see a lady walk up to the band and I hear the lead singer tell her "we have no control over that" and of course I'm thinking she's complaining it's too loud and now I'm waiting for it. She hurries over to me as the band is starting the next number and she start to tell me that she's been following the band for a long time and she's the guitar players girlfriend and that first song was the worst they've ever sounded. Of course I'm polite and ask what she thinks doesn't sound right, and of course she can't tell me other than to just reinforce how bad it is.
I'm flabbergasted as I really think this is the clearest mix I've had to date and it's the 2nd time I've worked with this band and they heaped tons of praise on me the last time I did their sound. Only thing I can think of is that the mix was so clear she may have actually been hearing what the band really sounded like for the first time, warts and all. I mean their shortcomings, especially in the vocals, were apparent. Is it possible to have a mix too clear?
If you are confident that it sounded good....then it did, no matter what somebody else thinks.
-
I've only been doing sound for other bands for a couple of months and last night something happened that just set me back. I do the sound check, the band launches into it's first number and I tweaked things a bit but but the initial mix is super clear and I think an excellent starting point. Other than the vocals being a little hot, the mix is great.
The band finishes it's 1st song I see a lady walk up to the band and I hear the lead singer tell her "we have no control over that" and of course I'm thinking she's complaining it's too loud and now I'm waiting for it. She hurries over to me as the band is starting the next number and she start to tell me that she's been following the band for a long time and she's the guitar players girlfriend and that first song was the worst they've ever sounded. Of course I'm polite and ask what she thinks doesn't sound right, and of course she can't tell me other than to just reinforce how bad it is.
I'm flabbergasted as I really think this is the clearest mix I've had to date and it's the 2nd time I've worked with this band and they heaped tons of praise on me the last time I did their sound. Only thing I can think of is that the mix was so clear she may have actually been hearing what the band really sounded like for the first time, warts and all. I mean their shortcomings, especially in the vocals, were apparent. Is it possible to have a mix too clear?
I got a complaint once, the band sounded too much like a CD. Hmmm? I took that as a compliment!
-
Glad to hear that it's not just me. As a precautionary measure against possible complaints from the band I grabbed my Ipad during the first set and recorded a song sitting about 5 ft from the complainer. Posted it on Youtube yesterday and sent the link to the guitar player.
Got an email from him a couple hours later: "Nice. Thanks for braving the weather and making us sound good. You guys did an excellent job.
Hope you had a safe trip home. I hope we can work together again in 2014"
Enuff said, I guess.
-
Glad to hear that it's not just me. As a precautionary measure against possible complaints from the band I grabbed my Ipad during the first set and recorded a song sitting about 5 ft from the complainer. Posted it on Youtube yesterday and sent the link to the guitar player.
Got an email from him a couple hours later: "Nice. Thanks for braving the weather and making us sound good. You guys did an excellent job.
Hope you had a safe trip home. I hope we can work together again in 2014"
Enuff said, I guess.
If you make the band happy, and the venue owner happy, you're probably doing something right. Crowd will always have mixed opinions. That's when you look busy and tell them you can't talk.
-
At my 'home club' I had a patron tell me it was "the worst" the club had ever ever sounded, followed by another one who told me it was "the best" they'd heard the club.
I once had two people arrive at the desk at the same time - one to tell me it was too loud and the other to tell me it wasn't loud enough.
Guess which one was seated in front of the speakers and which one was in the far corner.
I suggested they swap tables.
Steve.
-
The band finishes it's 1st song I see a lady walk up to the band and I hear the lead singer tell her "we have no control over that" and of course I'm thinking she's complaining it's too loud and now I'm waiting for it. She hurries over to me as the band is starting the next number and she start to tell me that she's been following the band for a long time and she's the guitar players girlfriend and that first song was the worst they've ever sounded. Of course I'm polite and ask what she thinks doesn't sound right, and of course she can't tell me other than to just reinforce how bad it is.
My answer to this is always the same unless it is someone that I know and trust giving me advice...Mr. Mason. For just about anyone else the answer is I appreciate you opinion, thanks for letting me know.
I don't get to worried about it and seem to get hired back plenty of times.
Bill
-
Glad to hear that it's not just me. As a precautionary measure against possible complaints from the band I grabbed my Ipad during the first set and recorded a song sitting about 5 ft from the complainer. Posted it on Youtube yesterday and sent the link to the guitar player.
Got an email from him a couple hours later: "Nice. Thanks for braving the weather and making us sound good. You guys did an excellent job.
Hope you had a safe trip home. I hope we can work together again in 2014"
Enuff said, I guess.
That pretty much takes care of it, meaning you can dismiss the girlfriend complaints.
One thing I would have tried if possible is to walk over to where the girlfriends were, and listen to the mix there-as others have pointed out, the mix will vary with location. If it sounds good to your ears there, ask them what for specifics.
Thank them, tell them you'll work on it, even if you don't, and go back to the desk. You need a thick skin in this business at times, but a little "showmanship" and professional politeness will go a long way.
Best regards,
John
-
We used to use Shure SM87 condenser mics for vocals a lot until we did sound for a group using them and realized how clearly we could hear the vocals. It turned out you didn’t want to really hear their vocals that clear. Even using reverb didn’t help. They (the singers)were just not that good. We then started using Shure SM58 mics for these types of vocals and it worked out much better.
Sometimes clear is not what you want, many times you need to bury them in the mud. In sound clear is not always good.
One thing I have noticed, the better the band the less hard I have to work to make them sound good. There have been some times that after a show I am just exhausted from how hard I had to constantly be working to get the band to be acceptable. Not to sound egotistical but I very rarely get complaints. I don’t do bars and it may be I just have an intimidating look on my face that says don’t mess with me.
-
I resolved a very long time ago to expect someone in the crowd who can't be pleased and has no clue what he/she is talking about with regard to sound. It comes with the territory.
I'm with Mr. Halliburton that it greatly helps to have a thick skin and diplomacy skills.
You can always place tape on an unused channel and in big, bold letters write VOLUME. Whenever someone complains that it's too loud or not loud enough, move the slider slowly while asking them "How's that?" ;D
-
I resolved a very long time ago to expect someone in the crowd who can't be pleased and has no clue what he/she is talking about with regard to sound. It comes with the territory.
I'm with Mr. Halliburton that it greatly helps to have a thick skin and diplomacy skills.
You can always place tape on an unused channel and in big, bold letters write VOLUME. Whenever someone complains that it's too loud or not loud enough, move the slider slowly while asking them "How's that?" ;D
When I had a hefty outboard rack sitting next to the console, I put some board tape on it where my motto could be read by anyone coming up to speak to me. It said, "I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in?"
Got that offa Groucho Marx.
-
When I had a hefty outboard rack sitting next to the console, I put some board tape on it where my motto could be read by anyone coming up to speak to me. It said, "I'd like to help you out. Which way did you come in?"
Got that offa Groucho Marx.
Nice one! Unfortunately, I suspect many won't get it. ???
-
Nice one! Unfortunately, I suspect many won't get it. ???
Another tech I met had this on the board tape on the rear of his console:
"How dare you question my artistic vision??!!??"
-
Another tech I met had this on the board tape on the rear of his console:
"How dare you question my artistic vision??!!??"
My artistic vision requires bifocals...
-
There may be another side to this. Did the band have a sound person before you? Sometimes its MONEY that drives these things. Maybe the guitar player is being cut $30 dollars or so and wants to trash you so he can get his money back?
People do things to get what they want in weird ways sometimes.
Douglas R. Allen
-
Was pleased to hear Jon Burton (FOH for The Prodigy, amongst others) at a "How to soundcheck" seminar for PLASA (UK) state that our job is 75% people skills, 25% technical (might have got the proportions slightly wrong). Agrees with what I've always thought...
You can view him delivering this seminar here (not the same one I attended, but looks like the same content) - well worth a view...
http://youtu.be/kklGMpv0t0o (http://youtu.be/kklGMpv0t0o)
-
Nice one! Unfortunately, I suspect many won't get it. ???
His comic foil and co-star, Margaret Dumont, rarely did.
It would have been the ultimate love/hate situation to be the butt of a Marx Bros. "skewering". I would have gladly taken the plunge, if the opportunity existed. You can watch their movies many times over and pick up something new each time.
Best regards,
John
-
At a dance music event:
"Hey, I think your subs are out of phase. They sound like they are sucking, not blowing!"
-
i used to hate this part of mixing as i don't really take criticism all that well. Over time i learned to deal with it using a simple process.
1. Ask for specifics. if none are given, then ignore it. 'it sounds bad' cannot be fixed if it sounds good to me. Specifics will be considered. That being said, if i flat out don't agree, i don't make the change.
2. Ask where they are sitting and if possible go there and listen. This makes them feel like you are taking them seriously, and will occasionally actually add insight into the situation that can help. My most recent situation like this was a John Denver Tribute act in a fairly large theater. When i went down front to where the patron was sitting it was obvious where the complaint was coming from. The mix was fine. The stage volume was just too high for the level i was running the system. i went back and turned the rig up a few dB and the same guy that was ready to flay me was falling over himself with compliments at the end of the show.
3. Be polite, but firm. 'The band/promoter/venue hired me to do this job and it sounds really good to me' said without sarcasm or attitude can work wonders sometimes.
Above all else, avoid getting into a pissing contest over it. There are times at the guerrilla club level where you might have to make a few enemies, but just about anywhere else you work the bridges you burn will not be worth it in the long run. Sound guys with good attitudes get more, and better, gigs. It's just a fact.
-
Another tech I met had this on the board tape on the rear of his console:
"How dare you question my artistic vision??!!??"
My motto:
"I can only make it louder, I can't make it better"
-
i distinctly remember mixing for a band at a local festival that was getting popular and I was eager to show how they would sound with my system and mix chops. Every other time I had heard them, the mix was a crappy muddy mid bass mish mosh blankets over the speakers kind of sound that was, IMNSHO, total crap. The type of music was modern heavy rock/ metal in the vein of STP, Godsmack, Limp Bizkit, etc.
When the band started up the mix was clear and coherent and it sounded like crap! WTF! After a song or 2 of desperately twisting knobs trying to pull them in, I gave up and decided to "muddy" it up, if nothing else because the talent level was pretty poor.
You know what? The less clear the mix became, the better it sounded. It really opened my eyes up to the fact that the "best" mix is the one that works for the act, not the other way around.
Some food for thought.
-
2. Old lady complains that the drums are too loud, is informed that there are no mics on the drums and says, "Well, put some mics on them and TURN THEM DOWN."
#2 my all-time favorite.
Yes! I'm going to put that right up there with the "big band" show I was doing in a small amphitheater type place. We had your basic 3x2 per side flown 850 rig and the only thing in the PA was the vocal mics. Sure enough, as soon as the music started a blue colored helmet-hair came charging up the steps to demand that I "turn it down!"
Also, my grandmother is a huge Hank Williams Jr. fan. She came to a show that I was working and to improve her situation a little bit I got her a chair and parked her at the FoH location in the 20,000 seat arena which was pretty much sold out. She clapped along and had a great time. Then, when the show was over one of the other bemused tech people that was observing from FoH asked her if she liked the show. She said, "Oh yes! This was a wonderful show, but I have all his records and none of them were that loud."