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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Timothy Perry on August 06, 2011, 09:06:24 AM
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http://madison.craigslist.org/msg/2490113668.html <---I am thinking about having the band that I have been recording buy this rig for their gigs. Would I be leading them down the wrong path if I did so?
They have mic's, stands, cables, and two more monitors, so really that system and what they have would turn the key as so to speak.
Anything else for $2,000 used/new/etc. i should be looking at?
There is also a Ramsa WR-S4424 local here that is going for $400, if I could swap that out with the mackie that is included with the above system, I probably would. Bad possible choice there or no?
BTW, band plays mostly indoors, but a possible outdoor event comes up once in a while for them as well. And for now less then 100-150 people have shown up for their concerts.
Oh and the band is 4 piece rock. 2 elec guitars, bass guitar, drums. Three of them sing, with the drummer that may start singing during concerts soon, so I also need a drummers vocal mic, audix OM? something or another? Or something else.
Thanks for looking,
Tim
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As a one time owner of Bag End speakers let me point out that the system shown would be good for 200-250 people clubs tops. The sound, if the speakers are OK, will be clean and musical. The mids shown are not mids as Bag end did not make a mid cabinet in the series shown. What you're looking at are the TA-12 tops and instrument cabinets being used for subs or for what is being called a "mid" cabinet.
The amplifiers would not be my choice, the board would not be my choice, and certainly not an outdoor rig regardless of attendees. Hold on to your money and save for a better system.
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First off, as Bob said, drop the mid box.
I'm not sure I understand how they are powering this rig. Assuming the mid cabinet is out of the equation, they have a 2+2 setup from the crossover, plus monitors, and only 4 channels of amplifier. Best way to do it with that configuration would be to run everything in mono, tops of one side of the power base, subs off the other, monitors off the micro tech. But even that doesn't factor in the mids (not saying you should use them; just wondering how they expect you to power it).
Personally, I would be ok with the mixer, the processors/effects are reasonable, and the system should sound ok for what it is.
Final point, I think it is overpriced. In my local economy, you can get a JRX or SP system, good power, decent board, etc, for around 2k. If you can get that setup for 1500, then swap the mids for more monitors, I would say it is an ok buy.
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First off, as Bob said, drop the mid box.
I'm not sure I understand how they are powering this rig. Assuming the mid cabinet is out of the equation, they have a 2+2 setup from the crossover, plus monitors, and only 4 channels of amplifier. Best way to do it with that configuration would be to run everything in mono, tops of one side of the power base, subs off the other, monitors off the micro tech. But even that doesn't factor in the mids (not saying you should use them; just wondering how they expect you to power it).
Personally, I would be ok with the mixer, the processors/effects are reasonable, and the system should sound ok for what it is.
Final point, I think it is overpriced. In my local economy, you can get a JRX or SP system, good power, decent board, etc, for around 2k. If you can get that setup for 1500, then swap the mids for more monitors, I would say it is an ok buy.
There are 6 channels of amps on 3 different amps. The 2 Crowns and a BGW.
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There are 6 channels of amps on 3 different amps. The 2 Crowns and a BGW.
Didn't event see the BGW; ignore that section. Thanks Ivan.
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One more question, is that a microtech pictured or a macrotech?
IF it is a macrotech I was told by someone I trust to have the band buy it, sell what doesn't work for the bands use, like the "mid" cabinets that are listed, probably the Rocktron as well, misc cables etc... He also said no matter what there are probably things that once running that I would want changed. Also pointed out that there is not much room for upgrading the speaker system to scale to larger venues, he gave the example of something like the JBL PRX 15" three ways (The ones with the 15", 6", horn) where those can be easily set up to have 1, 2, or 3 per side. Although yes they can't really afford those, as a pair is $2,000 by themselves.
Although the band is just starting out, they are all 18ish in age, their sound is good, the CD so far is turning out to be good enough with the lack of skills I have lol. That I do want them to have a good system, that will get them by.
Also to point out where they are, last gig they did, they ran off a mackie 1202 (just vocals), two channels of crest amplification, and two EV SX100's and some crappy monitors. So with that said anything is better then they have, but I do understand all the points here in this thread.
Thanks so much guys,
Tim
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Its a macrotech. A lot of people on here say "buy once cry once".
I guess if you got a decent enough paying gig you could sub rent and get a feel for what equipment you liked.
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http://madison.craigslist.org/msg/2490113668.html <---I am thinking about having the band that I have been recording buy this rig for their gigs. Would I be leading them down the wrong path if I did so?
They have mic's, stands, cables, and two more monitors, so really that system and what they have would turn the key as so to speak.
Anything else for $2,000 used/new/etc. i should be looking at?
There is also a Ramsa WR-S4424 local here that is going for $400, if I could swap that out with the mackie that is included with the above system, I probably would. Bad possible choice there or no?
BTW, band plays mostly indoors, but a possible outdoor event comes up once in a while for them as well. And for now less then 100-150 people have shown up for their concerts.
Oh and the band is 4 piece rock. 2 elec guitars, bass guitar, drums. Three of them sing, with the drummer that may start singing during concerts soon, so I also need a drummers vocal mic, audix OM? something or another? Or something else.
Thanks for looking,
Tim
Anyway you look at it this is a good price for all this gear. This system will work fine for you and for 2300.00 it is a steal
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As a one time owner of Bag End speakers let me point out that the system shown would be good for 200-250 people clubs tops. The sound, if the speakers are OK, will be clean and musical. The mids shown are not mids as Bag end did not make a mid cabinet in the series shown. What you're looking at are the TA-12 tops and instrument cabinets being used for subs or for what is being called a "mid" cabinet.
The amplifiers would not be my choice, the board would not be my choice, and certainly not an outdoor rig regardless of attendees. Hold on to your money and save for a better system.
I'm with Bob on this. As someone who uses Bag End TA-15's on occasion, they are a fair to good sounding speaker. Can't take loads of power but they're pretty efficient at 103db. I guess the Bag End Elf "crossover" separates the TA-12's from the 18's ? If it isn't a true active crossover, you would need one. Those Bag End 18's are merely okay. I wouldn't expect a ton of low end due to their small cab size. But they are probably well suited to the TA-12's. As Bob mentioned, the 12's are instrument speakers and I see no need for those in a SR system. The TA-12's have their own built in mid to high passive crossover. A typical crossover point of around 100hz would be a good place to start to separate the subs from the TA-12's. I'd use a low cut at around 40Hz, maybe 50, on those 18's. The amps are merely okay as well. Much better available today. However, taking into consideration that this is a system for a teen band just getting going, this isn't a bad deal, IF EVERYTHING WORKS. So, make sure to fully test all the components. Set it up and listen to it. It will handle what Bob said, a club up to 200 or so at moderate volumes. It won't work very well outside. I mean, it will work; it just won't cover much area or be loud or full enough. But since bands break up all the time, why pay 10's of thousands of $$$ for some young un's who may not be together very long. Since some of the components are decent, you'll probably be able to sell some of the stuff at your cost later on if and when the band no longer needs or wants this system. And as others mentioned, this system doesn't lend itself to being added on to. Probably why it's being sold now.
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Gary is pretty spot on with what he's said above. I can add a little to that and suggest that if you are to purchase these cabinets you'll have pretty good sound, just not at very high levels. You can get good SPL out of these boxes with low power, just not SRX levels if you understand what I'm saying. In that case they may be fine for the band you describe. In the end I eventually kept a pair of TA15s and a pair or 18" DRC subs. The TA15s served me well as side fills for a couple of more years, and the subs were converted using JBL 2242H drivers which handle 800 watts up to 134db peaks. It was a lot of work to get them into the box, but I still use them right along side my SRX718s and they are a perfect match. So, as you can see, there's always some value left to whatever you might buy.
You can also purchase these cabinets and sell off the mid box, crossover, and any other crap that's part of that and run with just the 12s above the 18" subs using an Ashly 1001 crossover or equal. I'll put money on the system sounding pretty damn good configured like that, let alone more easily set up and maintained over all.
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You can also purchase these cabinets and sell off the mid box, crossover, and any other crap that's part of that and run with just the 12s above the 18" subs using an Ashly 1001 crossover or equal. I'll put money on the system sounding pretty damn good configured like that, let alone more easily set up and maintained over all.
Why keep the subs but get rid of the integrator? Based on the information on Bag End's web site, peak output on the S18E-C subs is 122dB at 80Hz while their response is something like 10dB down at 40Hz, for which a simple crossover is not going to apply the compensation that is part of the Bag End integrator. However, as already noted, even with the integrator the subs' output is still going to be rather limited.
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You can also purchase these cabinets and sell off the mid box, crossover, and any other crap that's part of that and run with just the 12s above the 18" subs using an Ashly 1001 crossover or equal. I'll put money on the system sounding pretty damn good configured like that, let alone more easily set up and maintained over all.
Why keep the subs but get rid of the integrator? Based on the information on Bag End's web site, peak output on the S18E-C subs is 122dB at 80Hz while their response is something like 10dB down at 40Hz, for which a simple crossover is not going to apply the compensation that is part of the Bag End integrator. However, as already noted, even with the integrator the subs' output is still going to be rather limited.
I made that statement based on my own experience. Keep in mind that this was many years ago when just about everything was a 300 watt cabinet at best. The Bag End crossover was tried at first, as where a number of other crossovers during the initial purchase. There were no perceived benefits in the output or sound with the Bag End device so I went with an Ashley 1001 as I felt the sound quality was better than other xovers I listened to including Bag Ends own. I eventually moved to the 2001 as I scaled the system larger. I have to say that overall the Bag End experience was a good one. Their speakers are high quality, and sound great. Their drivers are either Eminence or EV depending on model. Finally, the DRC series crosses nicely at around 100hz and if driven properly is fairly flat down to about 30hz, at least according to measuements I made all those years ago.
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What would be good replacement for original drivers? I have a pair of S18E from '97or something and I'm having a bit rattle sometimes.
Nice sound but yes, not enough output.
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Well band and myself are going to go see the system tonight. If all promises are made on behalf of the system owner and the band, they will be picking it up this Sunday/Monday for $1800 out the door.
Which when all said and done, if they totally break up the band, I would gladly buy pieces or parts, or for that matter the whole system. I hope they don't give up though. And I hope they get 10-12 uses out of this system, OR more.
So if they get rid of the instrument cabs, and the rocktron processor, what else right off the top of your heads would they need to add?
Double up on the subs, if they can find the SE18-C somewhere? Amp for second set of subs? Do away with the bag ends totally and sell them and the intergrator, get something else???
I hate the fact they could, might, should, maybe upgrade right away but I guess that easily comes with the turn key systems out there.
I guess I should add exactly what they have now.
Pyle power amp (of some sorts)
Pyle 4 channel mixer
Audix drum mic set is at there disposal but they do not own it
3 AT2010 vocal mics <--slap me silly but I like these
Mic cables coming out of their ears, but some of questionable quality/durability
Couple speaker cables of varying ends
2 EV SX100 wedges
2 AT 57ish looking mics (I do not know the model number)
2 Shure 81ish looking ???beta-green???
They use the pyle stuff for practice, and some varying mics that I got free at fullcompass.
So what should, could, maybe add to boost the system to its "full potential", I know its limitations...
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Well band and myself are going to go see the system tonight. If all promises are made on behalf of the system owner and the band, they will be picking it up this Sunday/Monday for $1800 out the door.
Which when all said and done, if they totally break up the band, I would gladly buy pieces or parts, or for that matter the whole system. I hope they don't give up though. And I hope they get 10-12 uses out of this system, OR more.
So if they get rid of the instrument cabs, and the rocktron processor, what else right off the top of your heads would they need to add?
Double up on the subs, if they can find the SE18-C somewhere? Amp for second set of subs? Do away with the bag ends totally and sell them and the intergrator, get something else???
I hate the fact they could, might, should, maybe upgrade right away but I guess that easily comes with the turn key systems out there.
I guess I should add exactly what they have now.
Pyle power amp (of some sorts)
Pyle 4 channel mixer
Audix drum mic set is at there disposal but they do not own it
3 AT2010 vocal mics <--slap me silly but I like these
Mic cables coming out of their ears, but some of questionable quality/durability
Couple speaker cables of varying ends
2 EV SX100 wedges
2 AT 57ish looking mics (I do not know the model number)
2 Shure 81ish looking ???beta-green???
They use the pyle stuff for practice, and some varying mics that I got free at fullcompass.
So what should, could, maybe add to boost the system to its "full potential", I know its limitations...
I don't know the capacity of the mixer. I'm sorta skeptical of some of Mackies mixer and other gear, but it maybe fairly good. Here's how I would hookup the existing system. I would use aux fed subs to keep the rumble out of the subs. I would run the system mono. I'd run a mono master send from the mixer to a 31 band EQ, and from there to a stereo 2 way active crossover ( like the DBX 223 ) and use one side for the TA-12's. Crossover at 100 Hz and send that signal to one side of the best amp. Since I don't know much about any of those amps, select the one that has about 600 watts per side into 4 ohms. That is a little more power than the TA-12's can handle but you need extra power to handle peaks cleanly. For the subs, choose an aux send from the mixer and run that to another 31 band EQ and from there, to the other side of the crossover. Select the same crossover point ( 100 Hz ) and engage the low cut filter: 40 Hz on a DBX . Run that to either the other side of the best amp, or use another amp to run the subs. All those Bag End cabs are 8 ohms, so by running mono and two cabs of one side of the best amp, you are getting 1/2 the power of each side to one speaker. It really depends on the individual amps and the power they put out. Subs need more clean power. As to aux fed subs, then just add the amount of subs you want to the instruments you want in the subs. Typically the kick drum, bass guitar if you need it in the FOH, the floor tom and keyboards ( but you do not have ). You can blend in the amount of sub for any instrument and keep it out of the vocal mics and other mics which can cause stage rumble. Mix the overall amount of sub level on the master aux send, on the EQ and the crossover. They all have level controls. I attempt to achieve unity on my gear and set everything to zero unity first. This usually requires me to run the amps full out ( no attenuation ). Then I can increase the levels without clipping any inputs. Doing it this way will maximize the gear, IMHO. Always start setting unity with your input gain control on the mixer, making sure you're not clipping the pre-amps. Set everything on zero, then bring the amp levels to the amount of volume needed. You can adjust the TA-12s with either the mixer master, the EQ level or the crossover level. Same with the subs. You need another 31 band EQ for the monitors and perhaps two more monitors, as two isn't enough IMO. If that mixer has the capacity, you could run either 1,2,3, or 4 separate monitor mixes, if you have enough amps and aux sends. Monitors will need eq because they have no channel strips for individual eq.
So, I'd add 2 more stage monitors, one Ashly or DBX crossover, 2 stereo 31 band EQ's. The 3 power amps are old and unknown condition. BGW and Crown are/were good brands but those are real old school. They maybe fine for monitor duty and you may need a good FOH power amp to run the mains and subs. QSC and Crown now make quality, lightweight amps. A QSC GX7 could run both the subs and the mains, and delivers 1000 watts at 4 ohms, giving each cab 500 watts RMS. More than the TA-12's can handle but you can turn that side down. I use a Crown Xs 1200 to run some TA-15's off one side and it puts out 1100 watts ( 550 per cab ) and I have no problems. Of course, if you try to turn it up beyond the cabs abilities, you can blow a driver for sure. So watch your levels. Now, you could get a DBX DriveRack and eliminate the crossovers and the eq's. Plus you'd get limiting, compression, and other system processing. It has a bit of a learning curve and not as easily adjustable on the fly, IMHO. Example, if I get a high pitched squeal on a monitor, I can easily drop some highs on the eq . Fussing with a Driverack's settings takes a little more time. But it is merely a matter of preference. As to the subs, yeah, you could try to pickup a couple more of those Bag End 18's. I would NOT buy them new. Or, replace with some more suitable ones. JBL SRX 118's. Even the old JBL MPRO 418's would be better.
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Saw the system, better shape then I thought.
It is odd though, the 15" mids were in fact being used as mids, or at least piggy backing on the TA-12's. I don't know how it was hooked up (I had limited time to check it all out), the back of amp rack looked pretty tiddy. Snake stage box is older with a total of 24/4 runs, so I think changing the box over to 22/6 would be preferred, but there are always gender changers.
And yes, aux fed subs would be my preferred way of doing it, but not sure if the extra crossover is in the budget right now. I run a Tannoy sub via an aux feed at church.
The macro tech in question here I think is a 1000 watt 8ohm on one side and 400 watt 8ohm on the other, from what I remember seeing the specs somewhere. Not sure on the two other amp specs.
Lets see here, oh there was a cd player rack mounted to that I think he said is included.
Tim
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What would be good replacement for original drivers? I have a pair of S18E from '97or something and I'm having a bit rattle sometimes.
Nice sound but yes, not enough output.
I wanted to keep my subs because I liked the box size, which as it turns out is exactely the same as size as an SRX718. Working with Charlie Tappa owner of Pro Sound service, and with the recommendations from some folks I know at JBL, the 2242H turned out to be a perfect match. These are expensive at about $700 ea., but they do the job with a vengence. I run them now side by side with 718s and they compliment each other quite well with the 2242H working at about 10hz lower than the 2268 driven 718.
If the 2242 is a little pricey then talk to Charlie Tappa about B&C drivers. He had a B&C driver in mind I almost went with for about half the price each. But, being JBL since the 60's is a hard habit to break.
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I don't know the capacity of the mixer. I'm sorta skeptical of some of Mackies mixer and other gear, but it maybe fairly good.
Compared to a Pyle, it is very good.
Here's how I would hookup the existing system. I would use aux fed subs to keep the rumble out of the subs.
I would not do this. From what I understand, the Bag End system uses a fairly complex crossover and bass management system (the integrator). It should sound good properly configured without the aux fed. I'm not an aux-fed hater, I just think you may achieve better results using the integrator on this particular setup.
I would run the system mono. I'd run a mono master send from the mixer to a 31 band EQ, and from there to a stereo 2 way active crossover ( like the DBX 223 ) and use one side for the TA-12's. Crossover at 100 Hz and send that signal to one side of the best amp. Since I don't know much about any of those amps, select the one that has about 600 watts per side into 4 ohms. That is a little more power than the TA-12's can handle but you need extra power to handle peaks cleanly. For the subs, choose an aux send from the mixer and run that to another 31 band EQ and from there, to the other side of the crossover. Select the same crossover point ( 100 Hz ) and engage the low cut filter: 40 Hz on a DBX .
What about time alignment?
So, I'd add 2 more stage monitors, one Ashly or DBX crossover, 2 stereo 31 band EQ's...
Remember this guy's on a craigslist budget here.
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Saw the system, better shape then I thought.
Well, how did it sound? Did it reach the SPL you were hoping for?
It is odd though, the 15" mids were in fact being used as mids, or at least piggy backing on the TA-12's. I don't know how it was hooked up (I had limited time to check it all out), the back of amp rack looked pretty tiddy.
Perhaps run in parallel with the tops?
I wanted to keep my subs because I liked the box size, which as it turns out is exactely the same as size as an SRX718.
That is cool that the upgrade worked. When considering driver upgrades, is internal volume the only requirement to match?
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I didn't have my SPL meter along. And the system was set up in a garage, LONG LONG 2 and 1/2 car garage (well 4 cars would fit in there easily, just of course not width ways).
System was facing one of the side walls near the far end, but a good 15-16feet from the corner. So with that said, I walked out of the garage with the guy playing the system, and it was plenty loud. And dang clear. Even more clear as I got on center, inside the garage.
Monitors left me wanting, the peavey's are just not what I am used to (our church has Martin F12's, and Tannoy, and EAW). But I am not a band member, so they have to deal with it, not me, well if they feedback then I have to deal with it. Oh and the monitors had a volume pot.
And yes I meant parallel with the tops. At least that is my best guess.
The sole band member that could come, drummer, drooled when he heard me play a mix of theirs over the system. The song I chose though starts with a kick and low tom beating, so maybe hearing his playing loud skewed the results perhaps?
If I didn't say it already the band and my wife and I are hopefully picking up the system, Sunday afternoon.
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I wanted to keep my subs because I liked the box size, which as it turns out is exactely the same as size as an SRX718.
That is cool that the upgrade worked. When considering driver upgrades, is internal volume the only requirement to match?
Chris,
The size of the box is important of course, but there are many other design features that need to be considered prior to choosing a driver for a specific box. Working with JBL and Charlie Tappa we worked out port size, tunnel depth and type as well. The box also had to be modified to accomodate the larger sized JBL frame, the grill had to be moved forward to accomodate the additional Xmax and all of the jacks were changed and re-wired as well.
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Chris,
The size of the box is important of course, but there are many other design features that need to be considered prior to choosing a driver for a specific box. Working with JBL and Charlie Tappa we worked out port size, tunnel depth and type as well. The box also had to be modified to accomodate the larger sized JBL frame, the grill had to be moved forward to accomodate the additional Xmax and all of the jacks were changed and re-wired as well.
Haha, I figured it was more involved than that.
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I made that statement based on my own experience. Keep in mind that this was many years ago when just about everything was a 300 watt cabinet at best. The Bag End crossover was tried at first, as where a number of other crossovers during the initial purchase. There were no perceived benefits in the output or sound with the Bag End device so I went with an Ashley 1001 as I felt the sound quality was better than other xovers I listened to including Bag Ends own.
In Bag End's FAQs, the question "Can I use my Bag End subwoofer without the INFRA processor?" has the response "Yes, but you won't have INFRA bass." According to the technical data on Bag End's web site, in addition to the mains high pass and sub low pass filters of a crossover, the INFRA processors provide a high pass filter for the sub, limiters, dynamic bandwidth filtering and the low frequency shelving EQ associated with the INFRA approach. At least on the surface there seems to be more to the Bag End processor than would be found in a typical crossover, so it is interesting that your experience showed little difference in what you heard.
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Ok the system checks out, as best as I could check it out. The TC M-one LCD screen is not lighting up fully so dialing in a specific setting is a crap shoot. Ugggh, I wish I caught that. Oh well, I got a verb in there that I think I like, but I only heard it over headphones.
Got some questions though. The Bag End Intergrator has a limiter in it right? Well then why were they using a DBX for limiting on the mains. Well here is how I know they had it, master out on board to compressor "2" using two channels of that, one for left, other for right. And from compressor "2" to the EQ's. And then on to the intergrator.
Ideal I would have a couple more channels of EQ, I don't but what would you guys do? 31 band graphics on the house? Or one 31 band for house (mono fed), and then one 31 band for monitors somewhere? I would like to get to 3-4 amp channels for monitor amping, have that if the Crest can make it into the already over loaded amp rack.
For those not keeping track, here is the system they bought:
One slant top rack with a 15 over 16 space rack, huge mother ship style. With castors, top, back and front lids. (which they may be getting rid of this rack for something more compact)
In said rack:
Furman something for power
TC Electronic M-One
Rocktron Guitar processor
DBX 266XL "1"
DBX 266XL "2"
Peavey 31 band EQ "1" <---single channels
Peavey 31 band EQ "2"
One non functioning CD player, well I didn't have a CD to truly test it out, but upon power up, the disc tray opens, and when you close it disc tray opens right back up.
One 10 space Amp rack with:
Bag End intergrator
Crown power base 3
Crown MacroTech 36x12
BGW performance series 3 <--I think that is the model
Mixer included was a Mackie SR24-4 in clean shape.
100 foot snake
And of course the speakers:
2-peavey 12inch--horn monitors
2- TA-12 tops
2- SA18ec subs
And the in what the hell do I do with it category 15" mids, that aren't mids, just instrument speakers. Which is a simple box with a big giant hole cut in the back, and no not really a port, just a giant hole. Ok it somewhat acts like a port, just as much as a open backed guitar amp does. Probably make for a great keyboard amped set up. Not really sure though what to do with these. The previous band that owned the system, had pretty much used these as "mids" but all they did to do so was pretty much, in on the TA12's out to these instrument cabinets. Which I might do as well, when I need the extra volume, but with out a separate amp how they got a ok a balance out of them I don't know. So what the hell do I do with these two boxes? Sell, keep, use somewhere else?
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They make good speakers for bass. Give them to the bass player. And replace the integrator with a DBX 260.
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They make good speakers for bass. Give them to the bass player. And replace the integrator with a DBX 260.
Tried the 15 inch cabinet on the bass player and it did not live up to my or the bass players expectations. Maybe keyboard?? Otherwise I think I am going have them sell the two 15inch boxes and be done with it. Maybe get two monitors in place of these.
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I run a Bag end system (2) t-15 & (4) SE18(single sub). I don't understand not wanting to use the ELF(in my case) or the infra unit with the subs. I have ran the subs without the unit and there is no comparison. Bob, when you were using your bag ends, did you use the elf and if not why? From my experience I would not recommend replacing the integrator with a dbx 260. The elf or infra was designed to work with these subs and I think it does it well.
Scott