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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Installed Sound/Contracting => Topic started by: John Jackson on March 17, 2014, 05:52:39 AM
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Hi, I'm new to the forum. I've gained lots of knowledge just by reading the posts here, so I thought I would jump in to the discussions.
I have been offered a house sound gig at a new club in town. Well, it's not new, but the new onwers are renovatiing an old 15,000 sq. ft. club that has been vacant for a few years. I will be in charge of running sound for bands every Friday and Saturday and whenever they have special events.
Here's what I am faced with: The club owns six mains, four single 18" subs, six stage monitors, eight miscellaneous microphones, five power amps, and three cases of cables. They bought these items hoping to have a "house sound system". But it is lacking enough gear to do the job.
I am supposed to provide the mixer; any processors required; all of the drum, instrument, and vocal microphones; two more dual 18" subwoofers; the remaining amps required to power everything; and any additional cables required to connect everything.
I need to secure all of my gear so that it doesn't get stolen and it doesn't get mixed up with the gear that the club already owns.
I figured I would start by putting blue tape on everything that I own and red tape on everything that they own. But I also need to secure the gear.
The club has built a 48" high sound booth for me to put everything in. I am planning to bring a locking metal cabinet to put all the microphones in, but I can't think of an easy way to secure everything else (mixer, processors, etc.) short of tearing the system down every night and locking it all in a storage room.
I thought about making a lid to lock down over the sound booth and using padlocks to secure it and the door from intruders. However, I think that the club owners would like for the DJ and karaoke guys to use the sound booth during the week when I am not there. I am not giving them access to the house sound system for obvious reasons, which was agreed to by one of the club owners.
My main concern is to protect the gear from the time I leave on Sunday morning until I come back the following Friday to get ready for the weekend bands.
Thanks for any input you may have!
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Also - if the club goes under how do you get your gear back?
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Here's what I am faced with: The club owns six mains, four single 18" subs, six stage monitors, eight miscellaneous microphones, five power amps, and three cases of cables. They bought these items hoping to have a "house sound system". But it is lacking enough gear to do the job.
I am supposed to provide the mixer; any processors required; all of the drum, instrument, and vocal microphones; two more dual 18" subwoofers; the remaining amps required to power everything; and any additional cables required to connect everything.
Not to your initial question but why six mains, why are you adding mixing subs and what are you doing for system processing (crossover, limiting, EQ, alignment delay, etc.)? Is what you're adding to the existing house system really going to make enough difference to justify your providing it and you and the club having to deal with all the related issues?
On your question, might you be able to use the equipment you're providing to generate other income between Sunday morning and Friday night and are they paying for exclusive use of that gear? Do you have access to your gear at any time? Whose insurance is covering the gear while it's there? What security does the venue have when closed? Are you an employee of the club or are they looking at you as an Independent Contractor? The answers to these types of questions may affect what you do including whether the equipment you are providing stays there or goes with you as you see fit.
I thought about making a lid to lock down over the sound booth and using padlocks to secure it and the door from intruders. However, I think that the club owners would like for the DJ and karaoke guys to use the sound booth during the week when I am not there. I am not giving them access to the house sound system for obvious reasons, which was agreed to by one of the club owners.
Is that a majority owner and did you get that agreement in writing? I just see other owners or managers deciding it's greatly their system so others should be able to use it. The club also having keys to the sound booth and their letting DJs and others access it seems to essentially make it an unsecured location.
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Can you put your rack gear in a locking cabinet like this one from Mid Atlantic?
http://www.middleatlantic.com/products/racks-enclosures/wall-mount-racks-cabinets/sbx-series-economical-fixed-wall-rack.aspx
Leave all power controls and connections to your gear (inputs, speakers) inside the cabinet. Put his amps and connections to his speakers on the outside of the your cabinet - maybe in a separate cabinet.
Buy a locking road case with doghouse - for the mixer - make a hole in the case to the doghouse large enough for the snake only - or take your mixer with you. Bolt the case down.
Yellow tape and blue tape will not cut it for the cables. Label your cables with your company name and cover the labels with clear shrink wrap. I use yellow. Half the folks I know use yellow or blue.
I've gone to yellow shrink, the label containing the company, length and a serial number placed so both ends of the shrink show beyond the label, and then clear shrink to cover it all. I do it on both ends about 18" from the ends so I can trace the cable down.
You are still banking on the basic honesty of the employees and bands - but with labels there will be no question should you find some of yours in their box.
Speakers? Don't know how to secure those - maybe a small locking box attached to the connector plate of the speaker covering the speakons from being removed or rewired.
Label everything as your property - and get a contract saying such.
Our club basically deeded all sound equipment and the piano to an outside entity (501-C-3) in case the place went under - our lawyers said that this way in case of bankruptcy, that equipment would be protected. Don't know the actual legal position, but does give something to argue in court.
Also state in the contract that any tampering of any of the locks/equipment will breach their contract - negotiate the consequences - from a fine, removal of equipment, or complete payment for and transfer of ownership to the club.
Will all this work? Maybe. Is it practical? Again, maybe. It should keep honest people honest. Making it difficult will usually ward off the curious.
frank
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This has been discussed before so there are more answers to read if you do a search.
Short answer do not do this too casually or your could lose money.
JR
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Thanks for all the replies! Lots to consider. I don't want to let the temptation of the convenience of a house gig push me to compromise my investment.
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Thanks for all the replies! Lots to consider. I don't want to let the temptation of the convenience of a house gig push me to compromise my investment.
The ONLY way to issuer your gear doesn't get stolen out of the club is to take it with you.
Label everything
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The ONLY way to issuer your gear doesn't get stolen out of the club is to take it with you.
Label everything
This.
When they go under, getting your stuff from the landlord or liquor tax authorities will be expensive & time consuming.
When you're not there, the staff and management will decide that the toys are for everyone to play with. I had a system that mysteriously blew 15" speakers... I went to the venue unannounced, different nights, and never heard the DJ run at abusive levels. We eventually figured out it was the cleaning crew, cranking up the rig so they could boogie while they mopped - at the other end of the building. The club was in the process of building a new booth when the place was burglarized and most of the equipment (along with booze and merch) was stolen. I eventually received about 50% of what the loss was worth.
We had another system in a club that had live music Thurs - Sat. I went in on a Tuesday to change out a funky EQ and found the system running full tilt boogie, the assistant manager and a bartender figured out how to patch the stuff I unplugged. Much discussion and several phone calls later, I was taking the amp rack out of the building (and bringing it back every Thursday night). We eventually built a storage closet in the club and put our own lock on it.
As JR said, do a search of these forums as the topic comes up at least 2x/year.
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I had a system that mysteriously blew 15" speakers... I went to the venue unannounced, different nights, and never heard the DJ run at abusive levels. We eventually figured out it was the cleaning crew, cranking up the rig so they could boogie while they mopped - at the other end of the building.
We had the exact same thing happen at a Church.
They kept blowing the mains-but they were not running anywhere near destructive levels.
This happened a couple of times until it was found out that the cleaning crew figured out how to turn the system on-and would crank it so they could hear it over the sound of multiple vacuum cleaners in the room.
Of course it was all distorted-but they did not care.
It wasn't until the guys came in on Sunday morning and found all the HF blown.
You just never know what happens when you are not around.
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This happened a couple of times until it was found out that the cleaning crew figured out how to turn the system on-and would crank it so they could hear it over the sound of multiple vacuum cleaners in the room.
So it was Peter Mapp and his Hoovers!
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It's OK for everybody to play with your gear, but just try to mess with the DJ's gear or go behind the bar and mix your own drink and see what happens
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It's OK for everybody to play with your gear, but just try to mess with the DJ's gear or go behind the bar and mix your own drink and see what happens
Yeah, but the access to/pouring of alcohol is a legal thing above anything else... need to have that pesky license to pour liquor-- well at least that is how it is here in the PNW.
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It's OK for everybody to play with your gear, but just try to mess with the DJ's gear or go behind the bar and mix your own drink and see what happens
In Kansas it is illegal for non-employees to go behind a bar or dispense adult beverages. I think that is nearly universal in the USA, but I could be wrong.
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In Kansas it is illegal for non-employees to go behind a bar or dispense adult beverages. I think that is nearly universal in the USA, but I could be wrong.
Yes, of coarse. My point is that it seems to be OK for any old bar person to turn on and mess with your system when your not there.
I'm purposing a new law....must have license to operate sound system.
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Yes, of coarse. My point is that it seems to be OK for any old bar person to turn on and mess with your system when your not there.
I'm purposing a new law....must have license to operate sound system.
NP, I got your intent the first time. My point is that the bar has a legal, statutory leg to stand on; in theory they could lose their liquor license over it. At best we have a civil contract that governs the relationship of honest parties.
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This:
http://canada.newark.com/productimages/standard/en_US/4582046.jpg (http://canada.newark.com/productimages/standard/en_US/4582046.jpg)
Depending on your power configuration, you should be able to lock up at least enough pieces to render the system unusable.. as long as everything isn't on a IEC cable.
Jason
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Also - if the club goes under how do you get your gear back?
I say sell the club the gear needed to complete the system so it is functional with a pair of xlr inputs and then contract with them to provide the mixer and mics necessary for live band production and take that gear home with you each week. They can choose to let others plug into the house system and its not your problem if anything happens to their equipment outside the nights you use it.
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I say sell the club the gear needed to complete the system so it is functional with a pair of xlr inputs and then contract with them to provide the mixer and mics necessary for live band production and take that gear home with you each week. They can choose to let others plug into the house system and its not your problem if anything happens to their equipment outside the nights you use it.
That is a great idea, and that is what we orally agreed to when I started communicating with them. But then they didn't want to buy enough amps and asked if I could "make do" with less than half the amps needed to run the system.
We got down the the wire of 10 days before a gig, so I asked the co-owner if they could just pay me another $40 per night if I provide the amps along with an additional set of subs, and she agreed. Then they cancelled the bands that were booked and said they weren't opening until May 1st - after I went and bought the amps! I was expecting to get a return on investment by now.
The way it stands right now, I have no definite date of when I can get in there to start making a return on my investment - and I still need to purchase another $2,300 worth of subs and amps to get their rig up to par. I could spend $500 less than that and start booking sound gigs again.
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That is a great idea, and that is what we orally agreed to when I started communicating with them. But then they didn't want to buy enough amps and asked if I could "make do" with less than half the amps needed to run the system.
We got down the the wire of 10 days before a gig, so I asked the co-owner if they could just pay me another $40 per night if I provide the amps along with an additional set of subs, and she agreed. Then they cancelled the bands that were booked and said they weren't opening until May 1st - after I went and bought the amps! I was expecting to get a return on investment by now.
The way it stands right now, I have no definite date of when I can get in there to start making a return on my investment - and I still need to purchase another $2,300 worth of subs and amps to get their rig up to par. I could spend $500 less than that and start booking sound gigs again.
Sorry to hear the job fell through after your investment. Somehow, I'm not overly surprised. Any kind of business has its risks.
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Sorry to hear the job fell through after your investment. Somehow, I'm not overly surprised. Any kind of business has its risks.
It hasn't fallen though. They just changed the game plan on me.
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It hasn't fallen though. They just changed the game plan on me.
Do you know why? It sounds like there is a legal problem or Code issue. If you don't see trade worker vans, suspect the former.
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It hasn't fallen though. They just changed the game plan on me.
JJ...
You need to get this stuff in writing, signed and witnessed before you do anything at all, much less buy gear for it. Otherwise just bend over, pucker up and kiss your a&$ goodbye.
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Yup, just like the other bar thread, they need to see the value to budget fixing up their system. One of 4 choices. Either contract to provide a full system that you bring in each time they want to run bands but I suspect that will be out of budget. Convince them to fix their system up to the standards that you feel are necessary for the successful use by you and other professionals. Work with what they have and hope that they will see the need for improvements. Or finally let them flounder on their own.
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It hasn't fallen though. They just changed the game plan on me.
It sounds like there have now been multiple occasions where they have deviated from what was agreed. The more you let them deviate from what was agreed without holding them to what was agreed and without their incurring any penalty for the changes, the more likely they are to continuing violating your agreements. Many people would simply walk away at this point but if you still want to proceed then I agree with Dick, you should have an agreement in writing and their "changing the game plan" should cost them rather than you.
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Do you know why? It sounds like there is a legal problem or Code issue. If you don't see trade worker vans, suspect the former.
That's what I am beginning to wonder. I think there are some hurdles they are not telling me about. Either that or the owner is just going overboard on updating and doesn't know when to stop. But they already cancelled all the bands for March and April, and I made my investment thinking that I would be getting paid for two sound gigs a week by now.
I almost opened a club myself about eight years ago. I was going to make a down payment on it until I read an article about starting nightclubs. It said that 80% of clubs fold within the first five years, and the number one reason someone opens a club is to create an ego booster so they can get the notoriety and respect of being a nightclub owner.
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and the number one reason someone opens a club is to create an ego booster so they can get the notoriety and respect of being a nightclub owner.
Respect of being a nightclub owner, that's a new one...
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Same reasons why people become personal injury lawyers
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Respect of being a nightclub owner, that's a new one...
You know what I mean... they bring their clients out to "my club" and entertain them. It's a big PR/ego boost.
Maybe some club owners do it for money, but the ones who already own successful businesses buy a nightclub as a trophy.
I've already given up on the gig. Now they have some code violations to work through while I sit on thousands of dollars of newly-purchased gear. I'll be damned if I take anything into that place and leave it. The writing is on the wall. This guy is spending tens of thousands of dollars to update a club and is not focusing on sound or lights at all yet. I'll probably chuckle when he opens the place and it becomes another empty room. They will book all the crappy bands because the good ones have all blacklisted them.
They booked bands from late February, 2014 through September, 2014 and have had to cancel nearly every local band once or twice so far. I was supposed to be making a paycheck since the first gig, so I am out all that income also. Now there is no solid opening date in sight. But they are still begging me to be their house sound guy. LMAO!
What looks too good to be true probably is.
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You know what I mean... they bring their clients out to "my club" and entertain them. It's a big PR/ego boost.
Maybe some club owners do it for money, but the ones who already own successful businesses buy a nightclub as a trophy.
I've already given up on the gig. Now they have some code violations to work through while I sit on thousands of dollars of newly-purchased gear. I'll be damned if I take anything into that place and leave it. The writing is on the wall. This guy is spending tens of thousands of dollars to update a club and is not focusing on sound or lights at all yet. I'll probably chuckle when he opens the place and it becomes another empty room. They will book all the crappy bands because the good ones have all blacklisted them.
They booked bands from late February, 2014 through September, 2014 and have had to cancel nearly every local band once or twice so far. I was supposed to be making a paycheck since the first gig, so I am out all that income also. Now there is no solid opening date in sight. But they are still begging me to be their house sound guy. LMAO!
What looks too good to be true probably is.
Good to hear you're bailing on this 'project.' It would end up on Bar Rescue in 12 months.... which brings me to the real reasons most bars fail - unprofessional (and inexperienced) management/ownership, and drunk owners/managers. Pretty much all of the down-stream employee problems stem from those 2 things. A 'trophy bar' owner can be both...
Running a bar is a business - one that can lose money as fast as the barkeep can pour the drinks.
About 25 years ago, fresh out of another accounting class I contemplated opening a jazz/blues club. The up-front costs were significant (remodel, new refrigeration, new kitchen, new bathrooms) and the only way to make it work was to have strict liquor control and accounting. The pro-forma cash flows showed that I'd probably lose money the first 2 years and after that things were very iffy. It was more fun and profitable to run sound. Interestingly, the projected costs of staging the entertainment was a relatively small part of operations, save promoting some name acts throughout the year.
Tom Reid, a former participant here at PSW, opened (and later closed) his own club. He posted about it and a forum search will likely bring up the threads in the FUD forum archives (sans pictures, sadly). He had a nice place, a couple of crooked employees, and a landlord that refused to fix life-safety code violations; ultimately the latter was the cause of the closure.