jack smith wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 11:30 |
As some of you know, i'm after some new subs, and have a few ideas, but out of the EV QRX-218 and the JBL SRX-728, which one do you guys think is the best for music like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3QwPYFWiKQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3QwPYFWiKQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XdXN_Av9jY&feature=relat ed] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XdXN_Av9jY&feature=relat ed " ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XdXN_Av9jY&feature=rela ted Thats the kind of music I play at allk my parties. Its got seriously unbelievable amounts of tuneful sub bass around 35-45hz that kills subs. I got a few ideas about subs and whether or not they'd be good for me, but if I was to go for reflex subs, and went for 1 of the 2 mentioned above, which one do you guys think would be the best for this kind of music? I was thinking about JBL SRX-728 subs, but just saw the EV QRX-218 subs and they look nice, and look liek they go down pretty low. |
Adam Schaible wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 12:37 |
I'm sorry, this makes absolutely no sense to me. The Lab Gruppen 2100 w amp will blow the nuts off of a bridged xti 4000. The drivers are rated at 800w rms. 400w rms is probably a safe bet with 6-9db of headroom (which the LG would provide - 30ms burst range). The difference between 3000w and 2000w is 1.5 db MAX. Edit - re-read and this sounded rude, wasn't meant to be. |
Adam Schaible wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 12:48 |
What I'm getting at is more than 3kw what? Peak, RMS? It's a weird thing to say - 3kw RMS would be way over the peak rating of the cab assuming a 6db crest factor (which it's probably closer to 10db on average). The thermal rating on the drivers is 800w based on a 6db crest (if memory serves me correctly). |
Adam Schaible wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 12:52 |
Right, so the thermal is 800w per driver |
Adam Schaible wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:34 |
I don't think 3k peak is too much - 3k RMS is, but you really can't run 3k RMS with any production amp outside an ITech 12000HD and you need electricity in the grid to support it. The point I'm making is that 3k watts is only 1.5 db more than 2k watts. To get 3k watts from a 3k amp is basically on the edge of clipping, so you're probably getting 1500-2k watts from a 3kw amp. |
jack smith wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 15:22 |
To Tom Reid, What do you mean 2k is asking for heat? I've been told by people on this very forum (cant remember who) that 2k each sub is about right. Any more than that and its too much power for the seriously bass heavy music i'll be playing through them. I always set system gain structure by using a pink noise test tone and making sure all equipment clips at the same level, then back off on the 1st piece of equipment to 0db on the mixer, and then not exceed that level all night. Surely 3k into an SRX-728 while playing the kind of music i'll be playing is way too much power. If I set the gain structure, then keep the level at or below all night, but...I put 3000k through each sub, it'll blow them to bits wouldnt it? |
Adam Schaible wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 16:49 |
That's not the same as saying "they really come alive at 3kw". I'd be very surprised if they ever see more than 100v without clipping. |
Caleb Dick wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 21:08 |
The difference between small and large amps, as well as cheaper vs higher quality, isn't the extra dB or two. It's for reproducing the transients accurately, and likely other good things. Headroom is your friend, especially with subs. Caleb |
Tom Reid wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 21:21 |
I have A/B Lab Grup with other amps. I have not run the on 728s. I know what the hear and feel when a loudspeaker gets into power compression and there ain't no more and before it starts to smell ... I don't get to that point. |
Silas Pradetto wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:08 |
Somewhat glancing over all the discussion about power and who's got more watts, I give a huge +1 for a pair of SRX728s powered with a single IT8000. You will not be disappointed. Utilize the clip limiter and RMS power limiter and they'll never blow up. Oh, and Itechs laugh at the XTis; hence, I sold all mine. You could use ten XTi4000s bridged and it still wouldn't sound as good as the single IT8000 I recommended. |
Tom Reid wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 23:15 | ||
I know I know ... It's in the budget. I'm getting there, I pick up the new trailer this week. That said, the xti6000 is a different beastie. I like it on mids (SRX725). |
Silas Pradetto wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:17 | ||||
Xti6000 still sucks because it still has useless limiters and no Ethernet. There are IT8000s everywhere for $1750 used and I've been buying piles of IT4000s for $1200 each or so. |
Tom Reid wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 23:23 | ||||||
Thanks, I know my amps suck. But they don't suck that bad. My ROI hasn't sucked yet ... |
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 05:34 |
So, just explain to me (because i'm not that knowledgable) if i'll be ok. Are you guys saying that as long as I set the gain structure to ensure all equipment in the cahin clips at the same level, even though i'm playing music with the more bass than any other music style in the world (oldskool is more bass heavy than any other style i've ever heard) and also playing the uk hardcore which is highly compressed, I can put 3k through the SRX-728 sub as long as I dont run the signal past 0db, which means that in effect, I won't be pushing any distortion to the subs, only massive amounts of clean power. Am I right guys? Its when you try and make up the volume by pushing the system past the 0db light (after setting gain structure) that you're then putting harmonic distortion through the speakers. Am I right? |
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 05:34 |
Are you guys saying that as long as I set the gain structure to ensure all equipment in the cahin clips at the same level, even though i'm playing music with the more bass than any other music style in the world (oldskool is more bass heavy than any other style i've ever heard) and also playing the uk hardcore which is highly compressed, I can put 3k through the SRX-728 sub as long as I dont run the signal past 0db, |
jack smith wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 10:45 |
I need something that would keep up with a pair of either the EV QRX-218 or JBL SRX-728 subs. To keep up with the subs, I was gonna buy 4 tops, 2 to go on each sub. |
Silas Pradetto wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 08:46 | ||
Yeah, that sounds pretty much correct, but an easier rule of thumb (if the amp is properly sized, in your case, 3000 watts per dual 18) is that if you see red, turn it down. |
Paul O'Brien wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 09:29 | ||
Maybe. The big unknown here is the source material. The 6400w rating on these subs assumes the source material has at least 6db dynamic range or crest factor. Sine waves and synth tones are steady state signals(0db dynamic range) so if you push more than 1600w into a cab with that kind of signal you will exceed the long term thermal capacity of the drivers which will eventually lead to an expensive repair bill. Bottom line is buy a big enough amp that you will never push all the way to clipping with any type input, and limit it to a level appropriate for the style of music being played at any particular event. |
Dave Rickard wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 09:38 | ||
After reading through this entire thread so far, I'm really apprehensive that this will work very well for you. It seems like you've left out key details, or maybe you put them in a different thread. I don't know your experience level, but you seem rather new at this. If I'm wrong, please accept my apology. No offense intended. Here are my thoughts-- 4 tops to 2 subs seems "upside down" for sub-heavy music. I'd be more comfortable if you'd said 4 subs and 2 tops. You haven't described the situation you're going to be placing this system in. Indoor/Outdoor? Much more firepower is needed outdoors than indoors. 20 people? 100? 200? 500? 1,000? If indoor, how many square feet is the room and how high are the ceilings? Living room? Conference room? Gymnasium? Arena? Serious amp power, whether correct or not, will only make things die faster if not done perfectly. When the party gets rockin' I predict you'll feel a lack of sub-bass, then against your better judgement you'll turn them up "just this once". "Game over" quickly. (Unless you're in a small room, in which case you'll be smiling all night). You're better off with more sub cabinets and less power, than you are with fewer cabinets and more power. Looks more impressive too, if you're into that sort of thing. If you can't afford to get more cabinets, you can't afford to blow your only pair either. If you can't afford either of those options, you don't have enough money to do the gigs you want to do. There's my free advice on the internet. |
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:40 |
I didnt mean that because I was pushing the system an extra 4db that it was giving my speakers more power. I meant it was giving my speakers the power that the amp is rated and extra voltage due to me increasing the line level going in. |
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:58 | ||||
No, IF and only IF 3,000 watts is ok to put through the SRX728 with the music I play, i'd make sure the level for the whole system doesn't exceed 0db at all. |
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:57 |
So how come the volume goes up in level when I push the line level up past 0db? Is that hamronic distortion? Is that why although the spl goes up, the speaker's sound quality starts to suffer more and more, the higher you go up? Upto 0db the sound is clean, but past 0db its get louder but less defined. |
Adam Schaible wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 11:07 | ||
As silas has said, 0db is pretty meaningless. When you add 4db in the signal chain (anywhere) the level will go up. Your RMS level with a 750w amp is probably somewhere around 75w. When you add that you're probably close to 150-175w RMS. Of course, this increases your SPL by 4db - but you didn't actually get more out of your amp, you're just running more signal into it. |
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 09:09 |
They'll be used in a venue thats 45ft x 30 ft roughly. I was thinking of 4 tops and 2 subs because I though 4 EV TX-1152 mid highs would be about equal output to s JBL SRX-728 subs. Originally I was thinking 2 EV TX-2152 dual 15" + horn mid/high cabs on top of the SRX-728 subs but then though that it'd be easier to move about 4 single 15" + horn cabs. |
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 11:27 |
I think 3 SRX-728 will be pretty cool in that small venue. |
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:27 |
If I need more bass then i'll buy another SRX-728 and run it the same way as i'm running the other 2, mono bridged amp into it. I think 3 SRX-728 will be pretty cool in that small venue. Next year I might make sure I got 4 SRX728 subs. I always run the system as loud as I can without crucifying it, so 4 SRX-728 should sound nice. |
Silas Pradetto wrote on Tue, 06 October 2009 22:51 | ||||||||
No insult intended Tom. The amps are working great for you, and I'm sure you bought them at the right price, and if you and your clients are happy then all is good, right? These days, any ROI you can get out of gear is worth it. You're probably doing better in that respect than me |
Adam Schaible wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 11:58 |
Anyway jeff - the limiters in the ITech's let you limit RMS, Peak, and thermal. RMS and thermal are very similar, it's just that RMS is measured over a shorter time period than thermal (thermal is usually measured over a several second period). |
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:30 |
I think two 728s will be plenty for the < 2000 sqft venue you are talking about. |
Dave Rickard wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 13:29 | ||
Two tops may be plenty as well. |
jack smith wrote on Wed, 07 October 2009 10:34 |
So, just explain to me (because i'm not that knowledgable) if i'll be ok. Are you guys saying that as long as I set the gain structure to ensure all equipment in the cahin clips at the same level, even though i'm playing music with the more bass than any other music style in the world (oldskool is more bass heavy than any other style i've ever heard) and also playing the uk hardcore which is highly compressed, I can put 3k through the SRX-728 sub as long as I dont run the signal past 0db, which means that in effect, I won't be pushing any distortion to the subs, only massive amounts of clean power. Am I right guys? Its when you try and make up the volume by pushing the system past the 0db light (after setting gain structure) that you're then putting harmonic distortion through the speakers. Am I right? |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 07:24 |
So my figures about halfd space etc... were pretty accurate, or not far off? Is loading ina corner with 2 walls and ground stacking too, 1/8th space then? |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:42 |
So would a rought guess be that the JBL SRX-728 will give out about 130db in quarter space, ground stacked against a rear wall? I took the 136db free space spec, added 6db for half, then another 6db for quarter space, then took off 10db for bullsh*t specs to be a little more real, then took off another 6db for continuous rating, to get a total of about 132db Would you say, that might be pretty accurate as to what they might give out in quarter space? |
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 08:52 | ||
No, not at all. I'd say the sub can definitely do 130dB continuously and 136dB peak like the specs say. The specs are rated half space, so quarter space adds another 6dB. So I can say you'd be well into the mid-130s continuously with peak near 140dB, if they're properly powered. Remember that music has a big dynamic range of 10dB or more, so you could only be averaging 120dB on a meter with peaks being way higher. **I really think this entire discussion is moot, because who cares about numbers anyway? Could you even tell the difference between 130dB SPL of bass or 135dB SPL of bass if it wasn't a side by side comparison? Do what others said, rent the subs, try them out, if they work then buy them, if they don't then reconsider the options. There aren't going to be many situations where a couple SRX728S subs properly powered and processed are NOT going to do the trick. |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:57 | ||||
Like i've told about 43 people already now, I cant hire a pair of SRX-728 subs because there isn't anyone within a 135 miles distance of me who even has them for hire. Thats why I keep on about figures. If you cant rent speakers out to try them, all you can is try and rough guess yourself as to what they might do. I live in lincolnshire in the uk, there's nothing like what there is in the usa. In the usa there may be quite a few places to hire out JBL speakers, but here, all the hire companies mainly have is Nexo, L-Acoustics, Turbosound Aspect series and a few other very high end speakers that I couldn't afford even if I ribbed a bank. |
Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:08 |
The SRX is a pretty damn nice cab for the cash. I'm not a JBL nutrider or anything, but it sounds pretty good. Anyway, I'm pretty sure the 98db 1w/1m measurement is in full space. My measurements showed 104db in full space 20v 10m. |
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:09 | ||
Please tell me how you measured a sub in full space? |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:13 |
There's nothigng what so ever available like this in my area. The only places are the used sections on websites of pa sales sites, but there decent ones are over 130 miles away. I tell ya, the uk is total garbage for pa equipment these days. |
Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:08 |
The SRX is a pretty damn nice cab for the cash. I'm not a JBL nutrider or anything, but it sounds pretty good. Anyway, I'm pretty sure the 98db 1w/1m measurement is in full space. My measurements showed 104db in full space 20v 10m. |
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:16 | ||
That's extremely unfortunate and certainly makes making the best equipment decision much harder. Since SRX728S subs are probably easier to sell if they don't work out, I'd probably just buy a pair of those and a big amp to start. As others have said, a pair of them should fill your 45x30 venue with a TON of bass. You will only need 1 top per side to keep up, as others have also said. If you end up needing more, just buy more subs. You might want to buy an amp that likes 2 ohms, like the QSC PL380, so you can add 2 more subs without adding another amp. |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:16 | ||
JBL tech guys have told me twice that its a full space spec. I e-mailed them from 2 of my different e-mail addresses to try and see, kind of catch them out. The electronic equivilent of going into a shop and asking a tech guy a question, then going back in there 20 minutes later dressed up differently with fake nose and fake beard and moustache asking the same question to see if they give what they think are 2 different guys, the same answer. |
Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:22 |
When I first got my 728's, I also asked them what the crossover settings should be. They confirmed that theirl iterature was correct and both the HP/LP should be set at 88.4 or something. Point being, what they say is completely irrelelvant. I'm pretty sure I've seen that you have measurement equipment - could you measure one? In addition, I'm not trying to "certify" that my measurements are correct. All I'm saying is that my measurements were average 104db using a C weighted meter from 40-120hz. I am aware of the issues of using a C weighting scale, but my measurement equipment is not professional ($$$$) grade. The cab didn't skew the measurements over 90hz either, they were pretty even. I didn't weight my averages down below 40 because C weighting REALLY tends to fall off there. |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:24 | ||
Damn thats pretty good then isn't it? 104db in half space. |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:16 | ||
JBL tech guys have told me twice that its a full space spec. I e-mailed them from 2 of my different e-mail addresses to try and see, kind of catch them out. The electronic equivilent of going into a shop and asking a tech guy a question, then going back in there 20 minutes later dressed up differently with fake nose and fake beard and moustache asking the same question to see if they give what they think are 2 different guys, the same answer. |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:32 | ||
When you look at it like that, it says to me that the SRX-728 subs in the small venue are gonna be manacing. Nice. |
Tom Reid wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:30 | ||||
Lansing Heritage is a forum that has a few JBL 'insiders'. They post most of the raw driver specs from the JBL lab test. It is marked on the spec whether they measure full space or not. The 98db spec for the 728 is full space. |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:32 |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:37 |
Not a wimpy sub. Neither was the Mpro 418 really, considering I only had 4 of them with 3k in total being put through all 4 of them.When I get the 1st SRX-728 sub i'll have some idea how much better (if any better) than a couple of Mpro 418 subs. I can still remember the awesome bass they use to give out. |
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:38 | ||
There is no comparison between the Mpro418 and the SRX728. The SRX will crush the Mpro any day. |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:41 | ||||
No I meant a couple of Mpro 418 subs, not a single 1, 2 of them. |
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:42 | ||||||
I'm confident that an SRX728 will beat four MP418. |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 10:44 | ||||||||
Are you sure? Because some people on here have said that they think an SRX-728 sub is about as good as a couple of MPro 418 subs. JBL didn tell me though that the SRX-728 can give out the output of 4 Mpro 418 subs, so maybe you're right. |
Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:48 |
I'm with Silas. The 728 handles double the power per cone, maybe even more. I believe 4 mpro's would be pretty similar in sensitivity (probably a bit more) but the power handling levels the playing field. Also, I think the 728 will sound WAY better. |
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:51 | ||||||||||
You like specs, check them out. Sensitivity on the MP418S is 101dB half space, or 95dB full space. The MP418S handles significantly less power. Most importantly though is that the MP418S starts falling off below 95dB at about 70Hz, whereas the SRX728 holds its sensitivity rating down to 40Hz or so. It looks like the MP418S is about 88dB SPL 1w/1m at 40Hz, whereas the SRX728 will be about 104dB. So the SRX has a HUGE, MASSIVE, BROBDINGNAGIAN advantage, especially for electronic music. A pair of MP418S will be about 94dB vs 104dB for an equal number of cones with the SRX, meaning the SRX has a 10dB advantage at 40Hz plus it handles twice the power for another 3dB advantage. edit: comma happy |
Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:48 |
http://www.l-acoustics.com/products-arcs-36.html 4 of them, to go on speaker stands, and also my own bought and paid for SRX-728 sub in the middle with 2 Arcs on either side. |
Adam Schaible wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 09:48 |
I'm with Silas. The 728 handles double the power per cone, maybe even more. I believe 4 mpro's would be pretty similar in sensitivity (probably a bit more) but the power handling levels the playing field. Also, I think the 728 will sound WAY better. |
Silas Pradetto wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 08:52 |
There aren't going to be many situations where a couple SRX728S subs properly powered and processed are NOT going to do the trick. |
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 13:11 | ||
This is what I keep saying. Jack's desired coverage area is pretty small. There is some interesting discussion on this thread, but he is far too worried about not having enough bass in a space under 2000 sqft. |
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 14:11 | ||
This is what I keep saying. Jack's desired coverage area is pretty small. There is some interesting discussion on this thread, but he is far too worried about not having enough bass in a space under 2000 sqft. |
Jeff Babcock wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 13:22 |
And it has taken 6 pages of posts |
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 13:11 | ||
This is what I keep saying. Jack's desired coverage area is pretty small. There is some interesting discussion on this thread, but he is far too worried about not having enough bass in a space under 2000 sqft. |
Jeff Wheeler wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 13:32 | ||
This isn't even his only thread on this topic. I have made the same post about his small coverage area on others. |
Jeff Babcock wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 15:12 |
Jack, if you are really that worried about it then take the time to drive to somewhere where you can hear them first. You may not live near the gear, but big deal. A tank of gas is cheap compared to buying the wrong thing. |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 13:23 |
Would a Camco Vortex 6 be ok to run a pair on? It gives 2,300 watts continuous (20hz-20khz spec) per channel into 4 ohms. I can hire one of them out from a place 38 miles from me, until I find and save up for an amp(s) to buy to power them. |
jack smith wrote on Thu, 08 October 2009 17:52 | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
They're expensive over here, even used. The cheapest possible price they go for used is Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 05:53:01 AM Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 09, 2009, 07:51:25 AM
ONCE AGAIN it is the AVERAGE LEVEL that is going up. The peaks cannot get any louder-due to the limit of the amplifier-but the AVERAGE LEVEL will go up-and it will seem louder to your ears. Of course the reason it starts to sound bad is you are compressing the signal (squashing it)-even if there is no "limiting" going on. An amp that is clipping IS limiting the max signal level (peak) but NOT the average. The more sound that is being produced also results in more heating. Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 08:27:20 AM Post by: Charlie Jeal on October 09, 2009, 08:49:20 AM The 0dB indicator is not where you want the whole system to be clipping at. What you are talking about is setting the system up so that everything clips at the same point simply going past the 0 db indicator does not compress the signal and anyway depending upon the metering ballistics any fast transients will go over the 0 dB point anyway you just wont see it happen. What will burn your drivers out is running the setup constantly into clip wherever that is within the system. So what you do is once you know where the system clips depends upon how you achieve this. Some people like to use the gain controls on the amp to set clip point others like to run the amp wide open and use the dsp to achieve this, depending upon your use and placement of the racks in your case I would tend to go for the latter as DJs do have a reputation for "tinkering" and if you have the clip points set via the gain controls on the amp messing with these alters the carefully set gain structure.If you use the "wide open" amp model you can attenuate the passbands in your dsp to achieve the same effect at the possible cost of a little signal to noise ratio which to be perfectly honest would be unoticeable and inaudbile in modern equipment having set this up you can then proceed to set the limiters with the dsp to provide a degree of protection. If you set the limiters too low and end up in solid limit all night this can restrict the movement of the voice coil in the driver and thus cause overheating and coil burnout. Not running the system ,once proper gaiun structure is set, past an indicated 0dB is the best way to avoid any destruction but it never hurts to have limiters set up as well. Charlie Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 08:56:06 AM
I didn't mean that I set the clip point as 0db. What I do is use a pink noise test tone sample (disconnecting the speakers 1st) and make sure each piece of equipment is the chain is only just tickling the red light light,starting with the dj mixer, then move along the chain to the next piece of equipment and change the level so it too is tickling the red light. I do this until I get to the amplifier, which I then adjust in the input attenuators until the clip lights on the amp are being tickled. Then I turn the level down on the dj mixer (the first piece of equipment in the chain) and make sure the level doesn't go past 0db on the dj mixer all night. That way, I know the rest of the system wont be going past 0db. Thats how I set gain structure. So the clip point is set as the 1st red light, but I dont ever let the level for the whole system exceed 0db. Do you kind of grasp what I mean? Post by: Charlie Jeal on October 09, 2009, 09:18:53 AM I get your meaning I'm just not certain that for your purposes using the input gains on the amp is the best way forward nfor the reasons I mentioned in my previous post also pink noise is not necessarily the best signal for setting gain structure in this manner, sinewaves in the appropriate passbands can be more effective to achieve the peak voltage. Charlie Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 09:24:31 AM
So are you trying to say that I should just wack the amp gains on full and then set the system that way? Because that reduces dynamic range doesn't it? I only use pink noise because a every hire company i've talked to say they use that way due to the pink noise being a constant signal as aposed to a signal bouncing up and down. I thought you set gain structure, then the last piece of equipment in the chain (the amps), you adjust the input attenuators. Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on October 09, 2009, 09:53:29 AM
No, what he is saying is that if you keep you amp attenuators wide open then some fucking stupid ass DJ wont be able to turn them up any further resulting in the destruction of your gear. Remember that the typical EDM dj is a stupid fuck and they WILL turn up past your first red light and they will turn up your amps if you turn your back and they don't give a fuck because it's not their gear! That's also the reason that you don't want to give a stupid fuck the controls while you are powering your subs with too much power. It's one thing for an experienced user to do it but not so smart for EDM DJs. You need to hang out at the study hall for about six months and read everything in there! Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 10:00:02 AM Post by: Scott Smith on October 09, 2009, 10:23:36 AM
As long as your "switch mode" amps have a solid source of power, they will power subs with NO difficulty, and sound great! I have been powering my subs lately with a pair of PLX3002's (while my PL's are out of service), and have regained some new respect for them... as long as they are powered properly and adequately. Post by: Tom Reid on October 09, 2009, 11:00:06 AM
The thread that won't die ... Amps like the Itech and the XTI have front panel lockouts. I believe on the xti you just lock out the DSP. I dunno about the Itech I haven't been able to afford one yet. Instilling fear and being intimidating works a lot of the times. It's the %5 of the time it doesn't work that cost money. Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 11:02:41 AM Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 11:08:34 AM
Well i've not had a single dj in over 10 years mess with anything. We had a lad who wasn't a dj cause trouble by telling another lad he was gonna punch him, so we just took him outside and beat him up. If there's any more than a simple lad causing trouble then we have serious backup in the way of very dangerous friends who do things I cannot say about on this forum. But anwyay, my parties seem to go excellent every single time. But anyway, tom I understand that you want this topic closed so let me say thank you for everyone who's given me advice. Now you can close the topic if you want. Post by: Tom Reid on October 09, 2009, 11:15:36 AM A thread dies when it dies. I have no desire to say any topic closed. When people stop discussing, nothing is learned. Post by: John Horvath on October 09, 2009, 12:17:27 PM
Holy fuck, Ryan, I think that's a fucking record !! Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 09, 2009, 12:23:14 PM I find it interesting that in one thread you talk about using good limiters and "speaker protectors" and then in this thread you talk about how you are proud that you don't have to. So what happens if you keep pushing your output capabilities and then something fails-do you just shoot the DJ on the spot? I know a lot of people would like to do that It sounds like you are all set and have lots of experience doing this. Just wondering-what is your current system-not the one you would like to have-but what do you use NOW? And be honest. Maybe I missed that somewhere. Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on October 09, 2009, 12:47:04 PM
Yeah, I usually try not to use as many profanities online as Andy P. but this OP is really starting to seem like he doesn't listen to anyone with more experience than himself. We had one of them around here a couple years ago and I think they finally let him back in but didn't they block his IP for a while or something like that. Post by: John Norris on October 09, 2009, 01:34:57 PM
This thread is good Guy Ritchie material, don't you think? "I spent m'whole fookin' giro on this shite and ya done fried it. Now I'm gonna doof ya, I'm gonna doof ya good". Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 01:45:57 PM
Because I was thinking about buying a loudpseaker management system with good limiters in it, but upto now i've made damn sure that no dj touches any controls apart from the dj mixer channel faders and gain controls, but tell them how much to go upto, and NOT beyond Post by: jack smith on October 09, 2009, 01:48:16 PM
You're getting me all wrong. I AM listening to what people say, its just that I have a very hard time understanding it all, and also have a lot of trouble with concentration, probably due to my adhd. I am rtying to understand what is being told to me. Stop thinking i'm a troll or something. Post by: Charlie Jeal on October 09, 2009, 02:09:26 PM Charlie Post by: Drew West on October 09, 2009, 02:34:43 PM
I have a hard time believing that works. Telling a hard-headed DJ how much he can turn up his equipment... They always seem to want it louder, when you give them their check the fader is at a normal level, but at the end of the day it's always all the way up. Does he think that the sound guy doesn't notice when he turns up? Post by: RYAN LOUDMUSIC JENKINS on October 09, 2009, 02:37:38 PM
True, but maybe Tim's liquid cooled subs would be right for Jack. Post by: Jeff Wheeler on October 09, 2009, 02:48:58 PM
I believe Silas tried to point this out and it got lost in the discussion of how best to keep idiot DJs from blowing up your gear. You can read the amp output specs yourself here: http://www.qsc.com/products/amps/plx2/ It is not a 3000w/ch amp but perhaps you mean you'll bridge one amp into each sub, which is sensible given that you don't want your only subwoofer amplifier to experience a problem during a gig and then go without bass. I don't own PLX amps but I read mixed feelings about them on subs. If you really want to keep idiot DJs from blowing up your gear you should put security panels on your racks and bi-amp your tops so the HF drivers can't be blown up by clip distortion, or pay someone to babysit said idiot DJs. Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 09, 2009, 04:26:37 PM
Is it me or does every DJ who "doesn't get it" or is obnoxious claim to have ADHD. If that is truly the case-there is no point in trying to explain it as they cannot pay attention long enough to "get it". So just let them go their own way and do what they want. They will anyway. Post by: Bob Leonard on October 09, 2009, 05:31:05 PM
I've been following but have standby this week and very little time. You both suck. It took over a year to forget about Duffin, so all I can say now is "Bus driver, stop here and let my friend Jack off." Post by: Charlie Jeal on October 09, 2009, 06:17:20 PM Charlie Post by: jack smith on October 10, 2009, 11:14:33 AM
Finally someone who's sticking up for me getting bullied. I cant help that I have adhd, I find simple things hard to understand due to lack on concentration. Post by: Bob Leonard on October 10, 2009, 11:25:04 AM
Jack, Some of that was tongue in cheek, maybe not. But here's what you need to do. Take your thoughts, write them down on paper, go over them, combine them with any listening tests or comparisons you've made, and make a decision. This thread could go on forever and nothing will be accomplished, other than those who may have an answer for a valid question in the future might be very hesitant to respond for fear of writing the second addition of this novel. Good luck, and let us know how you make out. Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 10, 2009, 12:00:14 PM
Then just give up trying to understand. If you admit that you cannot/will not understand-then asking the same questions over and over again and again will not get you anywhere. You STILL will not get it. Maybe if you listened to some real music it would help to change the way your brain "thinks" and would allow some more brain cells to develop and then some of this might sink in. Brains that are "exercised" are known to be smarter. Mindless repetitive "noise" does not help any. Post by: jack smith on October 10, 2009, 01:03:54 PM
Ok thanks bob. Post by: Dave Rickard on October 10, 2009, 01:25:20 PM
1. If that's true, maybe professional audio just isn't a good choice for you? Audio really is managing a million simple things simultaneously. Under pressure. And deadlines. 2. Don't fall prey to the paralysis of analysis. Do something. Post by: Dick Rees on October 10, 2009, 01:29:33 PM
Well said. Post by: Justin Stern on October 10, 2009, 04:52:07 PM If you are running continuous music playback and you are running heavy bass music which is pretty much standard with today's hip hop and dance DO NOT and I mean DO NOT power them at the program rating which would be around 3000rms if I am not mistaken for the JBL. Power them around 1600 (JBL) and you will be golden. I have setup a few different dual 18's in a few different venues and they blew, not becasue the DJ is an idiot, becasue the woofers were over driven. I switched out the amp to match the continuous rating of the subs and everything was better. I could not tell the difference in sound either. (SPL) If this is for live situations,then that is a completely different story. Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 10, 2009, 06:02:30 PM Sorry-couldn't resist. Post by: Randy Pence on October 10, 2009, 06:15:26 PM jack, adhd is a copout and can actually help you with sound stuff if you harness its energy instead of scattering it everywhere. Post by: Scott Smith on October 10, 2009, 11:23:54 PM
Of course, if people are going to keep "answering" the same questions over and over..... Post by: jack smith on October 11, 2009, 06:20:35 AM
Ok, will do then. Thanks. As for me having a severe lack of concentration, most of the work I do is hooking systems up and sometimes adjusting the eq, if need be, that is. I get on good with eq'ing because even though I have trouble concentrating, i've found out that if I try and keep focused and dont let my mind wander i'm ok. I know what my ears like, and if it sounds ok to my ears then thats good enough for me. And i've not had a single complaint from anyone who's system i've set up. But hell, i'm not anywhere near a good engineer. Post by: jack smith on October 11, 2009, 06:26:11 AM
Thanks andy. I lose concentration mainly when i've been doiong something for more than 60 seconds, so to combat it, I try and refresh myself when I start to feel my mind wander. I suppose its kind of like taking a time out. But a short time out, just to refocus again. Post by: Scott Smith on October 11, 2009, 09:26:37 AM
Post by: jack smith on October 12, 2009, 06:21:01 AM
I'm glad you can find my adhd funny, because I dont find it funny. Post by: Dave Rickard on October 12, 2009, 01:18:43 PM
I found the cartoon funny. I was labeled back in the late 1960's. We called just called it "hyperactive" back then. The advised treatment was Ritalin. My parents instead chose to treat it with topical doses of pine to my back pockets, like parents have done for eons. It's worked for gazillions of kids! Everybody has something to overcome. Stop playing the victim. Start making noise. No offense intended. Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 13, 2009, 08:04:56 AM
And there in lies the root of many of todays problems-NOT ENOUGH of the pine (or hickory stick) to the rear end. My Grandmother used to make me go choose a "switch" and if I did not get a good enough one-BOY was I EVER in trouble then The classrooms would be so much better if teachers (or at least principals) were allowed to discipline with pain. Worked for me They are just full of kids who, once they realize the teacher really can't do anything to them-run the classrooms. That's goona get this thread locked Post by: Bob Leonard on October 13, 2009, 08:38:28 AM
Maybe not locked. I agree that a certain amount of corporal punishment is what's needed. Growing up in my era was far different than today, I'll agree to that, but discipline really shouldn't be that much different. I never met a kid who had an attention deficit problem, but I did know plenty of kids who just didn't pay attention, screwed around, or otherwise couldn't do what they were told. That is until Mom and Dad were called in and let the beatings begin. That was usually when little Johnny realised he better tow the line. Both my daughters knew what a whack on the ass was all about, both understand there is punishment for wrong, both now are doing just fine with life. What the world needs is a good dose of 75 year old nun with a ruler, yardstick or pointer. We could just send them out in herds, free from reprisal, to whack the crap out of anyone doing wrong, one city at a time. Post by: jack smith on October 13, 2009, 01:10:26 PM
I'm affraid children with the same as me, aspergers syndrome and adhd hit back regardless of how big a person is. Children with aspergers are known to lash out on ANYONE so it'd be no good if teachers were aloud to discipline with pain. My daughter has aspergers, just like me and when the teachers speak her wrong, she feels intimidated and nervous like all people with aspergers do to a point, then she suddenly lashes out with no fear at all of the person she's lashing out at. I told them she's got aspergers but they dont understand, nor do they want to. Its a known fact that you NEVER pin a child in a corner because he or she will get finally get scared and just want it to become over so badly that the only way out of the situation is through the person telling them off or hassling them. I was like that when younger, in my 20's, a lad use to pick on me. I tried finding a way out of it until he got me in town 1 day and pinned me in a corner, a proper corner at the back of a shop, and so I asked him to leave me alone. He wouldn't so I saw 1 way out, and that was through him, and suddenly exploded with rage, knocked him down and tried strangling him to death sqeezing as hard as I could until he was going blue, then a friend dragged me off and I tried to run for him again and was bite his nose off, litterally, I wanted his blood. Thats how I saw as being the only way to stop him bullying me. I'm still like it today. My next door neighbour picked on me and intimidated me for over a year until he pushed me, and I ran into my house, got a metal hoover (vacuum cleaner) pipe and ran outside and smashed him in the face with it 5 times and kept doing it until a stranger pulled me off. His face was well bloody. I saw that as the only way to stop the torment.I went to court and my lawyer said I had aspergers and they let me off with a fine. I shouldn't be telling you guys this, i'm too open. Anyway, I think this has gone way past the point of talking about subwoofers. I think, personally this topic should be locked and closed. Post by: Drew West on October 13, 2009, 01:46:51 PM Post by: Tom Reid on October 13, 2009, 01:56:55 PM 2 were diagnosed with ADHD. The two required different treatment. While one would understand the consequences of her actions, they other would not care. For her it required a different stick and carrot. Both are functioning well in society today as a testament to my patients. So often we tend to generalize. I'm guilty of it too. Statement like most people, or all of them do this are just cop outs in some cases (hmmm a generalization of a generalization). Focus on the individual. With time one can figure out what works or doesn't. Now I'm not gonna get all Father Flannigan on ya'll but I've never seen a kid who is genuinely bad. Post by: jack smith on October 13, 2009, 02:17:32 PM
Well I know my daughter who has aspergers and adhd isn't bad, neither am I. We just are both very much alike and suffer from the same thing, and get picked on, judged by people for the way we act and speak and people just dont seem to care or want to understand. It seems easier and less time consuming for people to just stand there and point the finger at me and say "he's a bad seed" or look on me as a trouble causer or scum, when i've never onced caused trouble. Trouble comes looking for me, so I run away, and when it follows me, I run faster asking to be left alone, then when it starts catching up with me I turn round and chop its head off. I've always been judge for acting like that, but I cant help it. People play with fire and then blame people like me when I burn them for it. Post by: Evan Kirkendall on February 24, 2010, 03:55:38 AM Evan Post by: Scott Smith on February 24, 2010, 07:24:15 AM
+1 Just what was missing from 5 pages of a 2009 discussion... a newbie DJ perspective.. |