ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Matt Sisco on May 03, 2011, 01:55:29 PM
-
I run FOH for a growing cover band: Drums, Bass, Guitar, Keyboards, Three Vocals. It's been going very well, gaining speed for almost two years, and now the Keyboardist is speaking up because I'm not consistently pushing him at equal level with the rest of the band. If I did, he'd bury the mix. Right now I've got him rolled off at 125, and bumped at 3k, with just a hint of compression at a high ceiling. The guitarist (generally bumped in the low mids, and at 1.6k) still gets buried sometimes when he attempts a solo because the keyboardist (for example) lays into full chords with both hands on his Hammond. I don't want to tell him how to play, so I need to find a way to even out his dynamics without killing them, or further fattening his tone. So far the best treatment has been to know all the cues, and ride his faders. Are there any rules to taming Hard Rock Keys?
-
I run FOH for a growing cover band: Drums, Bass, Guitar, Keyboards, Three Vocals. It's been going very well, gaining speed for almost two years, and now the Keyboardist is speaking up because I'm not consistently pushing him at equal level with the rest of the band. If I did, he'd bury the mix. Right now I've got him rolled off at 125, and bumped at 3k, with just a hint of compression at a high ceiling. The guitarist (generally bumped in the low mids, and at 1.6k) still gets buried sometimes when he attempts a solo because the keyboardist (for example) lays into full chords with both hands on his Hammond. I don't want to tell him how to play, so I need to find a way to even out his dynamics without killing them, or further fattening his tone. So far the best treatment has been to know all the cues, and ride his faders. Are there any rules to taming Hard Rock Keys?
Until he gets reasonable, that's about it.
-
The keyboardist thinks he's the star. Comp the shit out of him and give him a loud monitor or ears. If he hears that he's louder than everyone else, regardless of whether he actually is in the house, he will be happy.
-
The keyboardist thinks he's the star. Comp the shit out of him and give him a loud monitor or ears. If he hears that he's louder than everyone else, regardless of whether he actually is in the house, he will be happy.
I wonder if the GF has a part in this. It wouldn't be the first time, obviously.
-
I wonder if the GF has a part in this. It wouldn't be the first time, obviously.
Certainly not the case- Keyboard players aren't cool enough to have GF's 8)
Kidding!
On a more serious note- has the keyboard player run sound for bands before? Specifically cover bands?
Does he understand the concept of "sonic space" within the context of a band? He needs to know the place of his instrument within the band. Unless they're a Norah Jones cover band, then keyboards take a back seat to most everything- They fill the gaps.
-
Speaking as a keyboard player, I have long ago accepted the fact that what I hear without the band doesn't work in a full mix. I will nearly always ask FOH to roll off the lows, and I avoid playing big heavy chords/patches UNLESS they are called for in an exposed section of the song.
For some reason B3 players can be notorious for over-playing, followed by pianists who don't have a good background in playing with a group. Stand your ground (unless he owns the PA).
-
The keyboardist thinks he's the star. Comp the shit out of him and give him a loud monitor or ears. If he hears that he's louder than everyone else, regardless of whether he actually is in the house, he will be happy.
Completely agree with this... they cant hear whats coming out of FOH anyway.... you dont need to please him with the FOH mix.... you need to please the patrons (aka waterbags.... pundits.... etc). If there's a complication.... kindly (.... softly...lol) remind them that they are a supporting instrument until they get a solo.
-
Does he understand the concept of "sonic space" within the context of a band? He needs to know the place of his instrument within the band.
I think this is the key.
In my experience one of the main things that differentiates seasoned ensemble players from beginners is recognising the need to stay out of each other's way. I learnt this when I played guitar in a jazz workshop.
And we had arrangements well before jazz; the "people with wigs and stuff" worked out a long time ago how to compose so that you could hear a solo instrument over an orchestra - without PA.
I saw a band of fine young players recently - the bass, darrabukka and guitar were on top of each other and it sounded like a muddy mess. When one of them stopped playing, it improved the sound out of sight.
RN
-
I run FOH for a growing cover band: Drums, Bass, Guitar, Keyboards, Three Vocals. It's been going very well, gaining speed for almost two years, and now the Keyboardist is speaking up because I'm not consistently pushing him at equal level with the rest of the band. If I did, he'd bury the mix. Right now I've got him rolled off at 125, and bumped at 3k, with just a hint of compression at a high ceiling. The guitarist (generally bumped in the low mids, and at 1.6k) still gets buried sometimes when he attempts a solo because the keyboardist (for example) lays into full chords with both hands on his Hammond. I don't want to tell him how to play, so I need to find a way to even out his dynamics without killing them, or further fattening his tone. So far the best treatment has been to know all the cues, and ride his faders. Are there any rules to taming Hard Rock Keys?
Matt, Does he have an amp on stage?
-
I run FOH for a growing cover band: Drums, Bass, Guitar, Keyboards, Three Vocals. It's been going very well, gaining speed for almost two years, and now the Keyboardist is speaking up because I'm not consistently pushing him at equal level with the rest of the band. If I did, he'd bury the mix. Right now I've got him rolled off at 125, and bumped at 3k, with just a hint of compression at a high ceiling. The guitarist (generally bumped in the low mids, and at 1.6k) still gets buried sometimes when he attempts a solo because the keyboardist (for example) lays into full chords with both hands on his Hammond. I don't want to tell him how to play, so I need to find a way to even out his dynamics without killing them, or further fattening his tone. So far the best treatment has been to know all the cues, and ride his faders. Are there any rules to taming Hard Rock Keys?
Matt, Does he have an amp on stage?
Matt said he was hitting a Hammond pretty hard so I would assume he has plenty of sound on stage from the organ, and maybe a Leslie as well. I have to think Bennetts statement combined with a GF and a huge ego may be the sum total of the problem here. Combine that with a little hearing loss and that equals pain in the ass.
If the stage mix is fine but the guitar player can't hear his solos it may just be positioning that is the problem. Push this dude as far left as you can facing across the stage. Look at some old Allman pictures and you'll see what I mean. Put his Leslie(s), if he has any, behind him. Have the guitar player buy a clean boost, a good one, and have him angle his amp up a little if possible. I recommend an Exotic AC for the boost, or a Klon, in that order.
-
The keyboardist thinks he's the star. Comp the shit out of him and give him a loud monitor or ears. If he hears that he's louder than everyone else, regardless of whether he actually is in the house, he will be happy.
Yep, trick him a little and you'll both be happier
-
I run FOH for a growing cover band: Drums, Bass, Guitar, Keyboards, Three Vocals. It's been going very well, gaining speed for almost two years, and now the Keyboardist is speaking up because I'm not consistently pushing him at equal level with the rest of the band. If I did, he'd bury the mix. Right now I've got him rolled off at 125, and bumped at 3k, with just a hint of compression at a high ceiling. The guitarist (generally bumped in the low mids, and at 1.6k) still gets buried sometimes when he attempts a solo because the keyboardist (for example) lays into full chords with both hands on his Hammond. I don't want to tell him how to play, so I need to find a way to even out his dynamics without killing them, or further fattening his tone. So far the best treatment has been to know all the cues, and ride his faders. Are there any rules to taming Hard Rock Keys?
Matt, Does he have an amp on stage?
Matt said he was hitting a Hammond pretty hard so I would assume he has plenty of sound on stage from the organ, and maybe a Leslie as well. I have to think Bennetts statement combined with a GF and a huge ego may be the sum total of the problem here. Combine that with a little hearing loss and that equals pain in the ass.
If the stage mix is fine but the guitar player can't hear his solos it may just be positioning that is the problem. Push this dude as far left as you can facing across the stage. Look at some old Allman pictures and you'll see what I mean. Put his Leslie(s), if he has any, behind him. Have the guitar player buy a clean boost, a good one, and have him angle his amp up a little if possible. I recommend an Exotic AC for the boost, or a Klon, in that order.
I'm with Bob. If he doesn't have a real Leslie(s), get a powered monitor like a QSC HPR122i or a K12 and put it on a speaker stand at ear level for him. He'll get all the keyboard he needs, and you can mix the band so it sounds good in the room.
What does the keyboard player use to hear himself - IEMs, dedicated keyboard amp, Leslie cabinets and Marshall stacks, or the monitor mix? This may help get you even better answers.
-
Instead of a monitor, get him Grado open-air phones - better sound than a monitor, and he can still hear everything on stage.
-
Unless the keyboard player has figured out how to simultaneously be on stage playing and out in the audience listening, correcting his monitor mix could solve the problem; how can he have an objective sense of what he sounds like to the audience? If you record the FOH mix so the band can hear how overbearing keyboards are in the mix, his band mates may help him understand how important it is for the band to sound good as a group.
On the other hand, most of the organists I've worked with have been overbearing egomaniacs who thinks the world revolves around them.
In either case, good luck!
-
Instead of a monitor, get him Grado open-air phones - better sound than a monitor, and he can still hear everything on stage.
Headphones do not look rock and roll. Good luck selling that idea!
I do agree that Grado makes some fine sounding headphones. I have a pair of SR-60's and love them.
-
sounds like the band doesnt have a leader or manager to call the shots. if they have a manager or if someone besides the keyboard player is in charge discuss the matter with he and the keyboard present . the guy in charge(if any) should tell the kbp to accept the way you mix foh. i was in a few bands that were free for all and it was always kaotic. when i started putting bands together i made it clear to all members that i was the leader and called the shots, but everyone could give ideas and suggestions. i ran a few construction crews in the day and got my stuper-visor experience. yes i was the big cheese,head honcho, stupid-nin-tindent, etc.
-
I run FOH for a growing cover band: Drums, Bass, Guitar, Keyboards, Three Vocals. It's been going very well, gaining speed for almost two years, and now the Keyboardist is speaking up because I'm not consistently pushing him at equal level with the rest of the band. If I did, he'd bury the mix. Right now I've got him rolled off at 125, and bumped at 3k, with just a hint of compression at a high ceiling. The guitarist (generally bumped in the low mids, and at 1.6k) still gets buried sometimes when he attempts a solo because the keyboardist (for example) lays into full chords with both hands on his Hammond. I don't want to tell him how to play, so I need to find a way to even out his dynamics without killing them, or further fattening his tone. So far the best treatment has been to know all the cues, and ride his faders. Are there any rules to taming Hard Rock Keys?
A compressor will fatten his tone some depending on settings. That is not what you want. Perhaps a better approach would be a limiter on his channel. It simply sets a ceiling for volume without raising the low level information in the channel.
However, I would not patch it into the channel insert which may be prior to the monitor out / aux send. (I assume you run monitors this way.) Instead, I would make sure his aux send is pre Fader, pre EQ, and pre Limiter. Then run his channel to a subgroup and insert the limiter there. The idea is to allow his monitor to increase in volume without the FOH increasing in volume. If you compress or limit at the channel insert then his stage monitor will also be tamed. (You never want to comp or limit any stage monitors, not even vocals.) Then make sure his stage monitor is hotter in the mid region. He'll soon notice that certain passages are too loud.
-
A compressor will fatten his tone some depending on settings. That is not what you want. Perhaps a better approach would be a limiter on his channel. It simply sets a ceiling for volume without raising the low level information in the channel.
However, I would not patch it into the channel insert which may be prior to the monitor out / aux send. (I assume you run monitors this way.) Instead, I would make sure his aux send is pre Fader, pre EQ, and pre Limiter. Then run his channel to a subgroup and insert the limiter there. The idea is to allow his monitor to increase in volume without the FOH increasing in volume. If you compress or limit at the channel insert then his stage monitor will also be tamed. (You never want to comp or limit any stage monitors, not even vocals.) Then make sure his stage monitor is hotter in the mid region. He'll soon notice that certain passages are too loud.
I understand why you'd suggest limiting keyboards secretly, but why the admonition against ever limiting monitors? Is the objective to prevent musicians from turning up in an effort to hear themselves through their monitors, and screwing up the FOH sound in the process?
-
A compressor will fatten his tone some depending on settings. That is not what you want. Perhaps a better approach would be a limiter on his channel. It simply sets a ceiling for volume without raising the low level information in the channel.
However, I would not patch it into the channel insert which may be prior to the monitor out / aux send. (I assume you run monitors this way.) Instead, I would make sure his aux send is pre Fader, pre EQ, and pre Limiter. Then run his channel to a subgroup and insert the limiter there. The idea is to allow his monitor to increase in volume without the FOH increasing in volume. If you compress or limit at the channel insert then his stage monitor will also be tamed. (You never want to comp or limit any stage monitors, not even vocals.) Then make sure his stage monitor is hotter in the mid region. He'll soon notice that certain passages are too loud.
I understand why you'd suggest limiting keyboards secretly, but why the admonition against ever limiting monitors? Is the objective to prevent musicians from turning up in an effort to hear themselves through their monitors, and screwing up the FOH sound in the process?
Yes
-
I understand why you'd suggest limiting keyboards secretly, but why the admonition against ever limiting monitors? Is the objective to prevent musicians from turning up in an effort to hear themselves through their monitors, and screwing up the FOH sound in the process?
They will turn themselves up loud enough to hear themselves the way they want.
If you comp them in the monitors, the amount they turn themselves up on stage will be more than they would have turned up if you didn't comp the monitors
-
I understand why you'd suggest limiting keyboards secretly, but why the admonition against ever limiting monitors? Is the objective to prevent musicians from turning up in an effort to hear themselves through their monitors, and screwing up the FOH sound in the process?
Yes. It can also become a serious problem for vocalists who sing dynamically. Compressed monitors may fool them into thinking they are not singing hard enough. They can end up blowing out their voice trying to get louder because they don't feel the added power coming from the monitors.
Though, compressed vocals do work well for the house speakers. You just need to be aware of where you are routing it to.
-
I understand why you'd suggest limiting keyboards secretly, but why the admonition against ever limiting monitors? Is the objective to prevent musicians from turning up in an effort to hear themselves through their monitors, and screwing up the FOH sound in the process?
Yes. It can also become a serious problem for vocalists who sing dynamically. Compressed monitors may fool them into thinking they are not singing hard enough. They can end up blowing out their voice trying to get louder because they don't feel the added power coming from the monitors.
Think about it. That's not always a bad thing.
-
Think about it. That's not always a bad thing.
[/quote]right now i'm watching the three stooges. woop woop woop woop woop woop woop ! curly !
-
I run FOH for a growing cover band...[n]ow the Keyboardist is speaking up because I'm not consistently pushing him at equal level with the rest of the band.
Sounds like your keyboardist has a "more me" problem. Egos are the hardest things to subdue. ::)
If you and the audience are happy with the overall blend of the group during shows, then (at least on your end) nothing should change from how you are doing it now. Your job is to ensure that their vision AS A GROUP gets conveyed to their audience.
I would be honest and tell him that you mix his instrument just like the others - when he's got a solo or is leading a song, you keep him in the front of the mix; when he's not playing lead, etc., he stays in the background as a support instrument.
And, as it's your job to control the FOH mix, you let him know that if he won't keep his levels under control, you will.
We had a guitarist at my university that would always turn up after we had him turn down (I know, I know..."so what else is new?"). What did I do to solve this problem, you ask? I took away his power drop. He understood me then. After that, no more problems. Lesson: let them know you're serious and willing to follow through. (Note: my boss and the rest of the crew backed me up fully on this. It's very important to have the support of the group you're working with; it can make or break your effort.)
-
Matt, Does he have an amp on stage?
Matt said he was hitting a Hammond pretty hard so I would assume he has plenty of sound on stage from the organ, and maybe a Leslie as well. I have to think Bennetts statement combined with a GF and a huge ego may be the sum total of the problem here. Combine that with a little hearing loss and that equals pain in the ass.
If the stage mix is fine but the guitar player can't hear his solos it may just be positioning that is the problem. Push this dude as far left as you can facing across the stage. Look at some old Allman pictures and you'll see what I mean. Put his Leslie(s), if he has any, behind him. Have the guitar player buy a clean boost, a good one, and have him angle his amp up a little if possible. I recommend an Exotic AC for the boost, or a Klon, in that order.
I'm with Bob. If he doesn't have a real Leslie(s), get a powered monitor like a QSC HPR122i or a K12 and put it on a speaker stand at ear level for him. He'll get all the keyboard he needs, and you can mix the band so it sounds good in the room.
What does the keyboard player use to hear himself - IEMs, dedicated keyboard amp, Leslie cabinets and Marshall stacks, or the monitor mix? This may help get you even better answers.
I got a good laugh reading this as it falls into one of those "YMMV" situations. I basically do sound for 3 bands and an occqasionally a 4th. Of them 3 have pianists/keyboardists. Two things that stick out to me are that they are usually one of the best trained musicians as far as lessons/theory go. Secondly, they have poor equiptment at best when it comes to amps/monitors. You can't fight ego's without some sort of compromise. I think they get frustrated a lot because they can't hear themselves, Any of todays decent keyboards have great sounds. Getting that sound to the player is the problem. Until just recently(last 5 years or so) keyboard amps just plain sucked.Today an amp like Traynor's K4 or the Motion labs 500 series fixes that shortcoming. The problem is what they hear. Hell they go 20-20kHZ and are damn loud. A good powered box works well also.
-
I saw a nice system while travelling in Sweden 20 years ago. Two powered monitors (nearfield a la studio monitors) which mounted right on extensions fastened to the keyboard stand and aimed back at the player pretty much at head level, being tilted back a tad. Would seem to be a pretty fair monitor for the player. Can't seem to find anything via Google, but it shouldn't be hard to rig a similar system.
And speaking as a life-time musician, I would be tempted to say that it is up to the player in a large part to figure out a system for self-monitoring. Of course I've seen this taken to extremes (one harmonica player in particular) who insist on pointing their monitor at the audience rather than themselves, thereby compounding the "wash" problem......
-
I understand why you'd suggest limiting keyboards secretly, but why the admonition against ever limiting monitors? Is the objective to prevent musicians from turning up in an effort to hear themselves through their monitors, and screwing up the FOH sound in the process?
Yes
Thanks!
-
I understand why you'd suggest limiting keyboards secretly, but why the admonition against ever limiting monitors? Is the objective to prevent musicians from turning up in an effort to hear themselves through their monitors, and screwing up the FOH sound in the process?
Only thing I don't get is why one would make it a secret that you are compressing the keys in FOH and not in monitors.
Different tasks at hand (Monitoring vs. mains) require different methods
I do it to make them more even and audible in the mix.
Without the compressor, I have to mix for that loudest transient.
By knocking down the loud transients, I can bring up the quiet stuff and more keys get heard. (which is what they want...to be heard)
-
If they guy doesn't trust your mix this is not a technical problem but a personal issue. If the problem is his perception of what he sounds like onstage, there have been some good ideas posted. I will never understand musicians who don't grasp the concept of "professional performer=professional gear". I show up at every gig with everything I need to be comfortable onstage, including a small powered submixer and small speaker, 3 DI's, mics for both vocals and trumpet, and all stands, cables, etc, that I need. No one has ever (EVER) asked me to turn down, and I can give the FOH guy anything he wants from my rig (plus I don't need a monitor or mix from him). I consider anything less to be unprofessional.
-
A player that has to be THAT loud on stage is a detriment to the overall mix.. In my situation I have to run 95dBc average.. I have a different band every week, and one with a very deaf keyboard/horn player...he has more power in his monitor rig than the whole house PA!
With JUST his monitor on I'm getting readings of 105dB from his monitor alone! (and it's aimed away from me!!! I have tirelessly lobbied for him to turn down... the band is powerless, and know exactly what I'm going through because they too are inundated by his monitor... (he is the leader) and he HATES IEM's with a passion...
So now, he comes in and sets his monitors to an acceptable volume and then slowly turns it up and up and up all night till it's pealing the paint off the walls...destroying any hope of a reasonable mix... >:(
Even on a gig where you CAN get loud, a huge stage volume creates a problem for FOH... in my opinion...
G
-
A player that has to be THAT loud on stage is a detriment to the overall mix.. In my situation I have to run 95dBc average.. I have a different band every week, and one with a very deaf keyboard/horn player...he has more power in his monitor rig than the whole house PA!
With JUST his monitor on I'm getting readings of 105dB from his monitor alone! (and it's aimed away from me!!! I have tirelessly lobbied for him to turn down... the band is powerless, and know exactly what I'm going through because they too are inundated by his monitor... (he is the leader) and he HATES IEM's with a passion...
So now, he comes in and sets his monitors to an acceptable volume and then slowly turns it up and up and up all night till it's pealing the paint off the walls...destroying any hope of a reasonable mix... >:(
Even on a gig where you CAN get loud, a huge stage volume creates a problem for FOH... in my opinion...
G
If that were me, I would refuse to mix for his band any longer. Local cover bands are a dime-a-dozen in my area. Granted, too many of them are similar, but there are plenty out there who will cooperate.
Look at it this way...If their show is that frustrating to you, then it is probably not that enjoyable to the audience either. The band's job is to attract and keep customers in the club all evening. What's the point in working for a band that is driving away customers? If you stay with them your career/reputation is likely to flounder along with theirs.
-
On the other hand, most of the organists I've worked with have been overbearing egomaniacs who thinks the world revolves around them.
In either case, good luck!
Yup. I have this problem with keyboard players, they don't understand the concept of mixing in, ours included. When she plays, it's overbearing, and annoying. Couple that with the fact that she's a weak singer, the kind were you have the gain up a lot, and it's really close to feeding back.
It's a bit annoying but she's overall not too bad to work with. I'd filter out the low hand of the player, and give him LOTS of monitors.
-
Yup. I have this problem with keyboard players, they don't understand the concept of mixing in, ours included. When she plays, it's overbearing, and annoying. Couple that with the fact that she's a weak singer, the kind were you have the gain up a lot, and it's really close to feeding back.
It's a bit annoying but she's overall not too bad to work with. I'd filter out the low hand of the player, and give him LOTS of monitors.
As a keyboard player who has been playing out for almost 43 years now, it sadly amuses me to see the efforts that those who try to make a band sound good have to make to overcome the ego and lack of listening that this comes from. A keyboard player (or any musician onstage) who doesn't know when to leave out things that clash with the bass player, or understand a layer, or doesn't hear musically and just makes parallel music would be a complete PITA. What about listening to each other? Otherwise it's not music – just noise.
My favorite is at sound check the keyboard player plays lightly in the upper register, then, at the gig, it’s double–handed FFF block chords from middle C to high C… Crunch! Give the crew some of that at sound check so they can defend themselves :)
-
As a keyboard player who has been playing out for almost 43 years now, it sadly amuses me to see the efforts that those who try to make a band sound good have to make to overcome the ego and lack of listening that this comes from. A keyboard player (or any musician onstage) who doesn't know when to leave out things that clash with the bass player, or understand a layer, or doesn't hear musically and just makes parallel music would be a complete PITA. What about listening to each other? Otherwise it's not music – just noise.
My favorite is at sound check the keyboard player plays lightly in the upper register, then, at the gig, it’s double–handed FFF block chords from middle C to high C… Crunch! Give the crew some of that at sound check so they can defend themselves :)
In their defense it's not only keyboard players, drummers sometimes do that as well. I've always thought of the band first, sitting in the mix so we all sound good, and then being brought up for solos.
-
A player that has to be THAT loud on stage is a detriment to the overall mix.. In my situation I have to run 95dBc average.. I have a different band every week, and one with a very deaf keyboard/horn player...he has more power in his monitor rig than the whole house PA!
With JUST his monitor on I'm getting readings of 105dB from his monitor alone! (and it's aimed away from me!!! I have tirelessly lobbied for him to turn down... the band is powerless, and know exactly what I'm going through because they too are inundated by his monitor... (he is the leader) and he HATES IEM's with a passion...
So now, he comes in and sets his monitors to an acceptable volume and then slowly turns it up and up and up all night till it's pealing the paint off the walls...destroying any hope of a reasonable mix... >:(
Even on a gig where you CAN get loud, a huge stage volume creates a problem for FOH... in my opinion...
G
+1
I mix a swing dance each week and we attempt to keep the average level at the mix position at or under 95dBA. Most bands work with us to control stage volume when it is explained that it is the audience that is requesting it.
Bands that don't get it don't get invited back.
-
In their defense it's not only keyboard players, drummers sometimes do that as well.
True enough.
I've always thought of the band first, sitting in the mix so we all sound good, and then being brought up for solos.
That sounds exactly right to me :)
-
...Most bands work with us to control stage volume when it is explained that it is the audience that is requesting it.
Bands that don't get it don't get invited back.
Less ego = more communication = more gigs.
Love it!
-
In their defense it's not only keyboard players, drummers sometimes do that as well. I've always thought of the band first, sitting in the mix so we all sound good, and then being brought up for solos.
Every position on stage can be guilty. (Including vocals)
-
In their defense it's not only keyboard players, drummers sometimes do that as well. I've always thought of the band first, sitting in the mix so we all sound good, and then being brought up for solos.
Every position on stage can be guilty. (Including vocals)
True. The singer is all "check check" and then during the gig, he's singing or screaming his guts out, or you set the mix for the drums, suddenly he comes out guns blazing. I find it usually only takes about to the end of the first verse to get everything dialed in "for real"
-
In their defense it's not only keyboard players, drummers sometimes do that as well. I've always thought of the band first, sitting in the mix so we all sound good, and then being brought up for solos.
With drummers all you have to do get them to play the whole kit after you've checked each individual drum. When they've got all four limbs flailing they can't seem to remember that they were holding back and they'll give you their realistic dynamics.
"Musicians" like this who try to sandbag you during sound check think you're stupid and that this will trick you into giving them more level. At this point it's war. You just have to be on top of your social skills and psychological game to win with these types, without pissing anyone off.
-
If only there were a way to evaporate the sea of suspicion and distrust that so often separates performers and soundmen...
With drummers all you have to do get them to play the whole kit after you've checked each individual drum. When they've got all four limbs flailing they can't seem to remember that they were holding back and they'll give you their realistic dynamics.
"Musicians" like this who try to sandbag you during sound check think you're stupid and that this will trick you into giving them more level. At this point it's war. You just have to be on top of your social skills and psychological game to win with these types, without pissing anyone off.
-
With drummers all you have to do get them to play the whole kit after you've checked each individual drum. When they've got all four limbs flailing they can't seem to remember that they were holding back and they'll give you their realistic dynamics.
"Musicians" like this who try to sandbag you during sound check think you're stupid and that this will trick you into giving them more level. At this point it's war. You just have to be on top of your social skills and psychological game to win with these types, without pissing anyone off.
True. I usually do the kick, then snare, then alternate between kick and snare. Then we do the toms. After that, I get them to do a full beat, including Tom fills, to balance out the kit.
I usually don't have much trouble with sandbagging. A lot of the time, a gig will include a local band as an opener. I'm on great terms with all the local bands, soundchecks go well, and they trust my ear for the FOH sound. When the other bands hear the rig in action, they usually realize they are in good hands.
;)
If only there were a way to evaporate the sea of suspicion and distrust that so often separates performers and soundmen...
I've played in bands since I was 14, I've kept a few pics and videos of my old coverband, when I had big 80's hair. I also have an extensive guitar collection, which I show the guitarists. It kinda helps break down the "us and them" mentality, and shows that I know what they want on stage, because I've been there. I love a good mix, I know that the drums need the thump, I guess it helps up my band cred.
I am usually able to get the band to have a reasonable stage volume, and give them plenty of vocals and whatever they want in the monitors. Each wedge gets 200W and it's been enough so far. The bands are happy with the stage sound and I'm able to have a great mix out front, but it all comes from having enough rig for the gig.
-
....but it all comes from having enough rig for the gig.
Unfortunately, all too often, having enough rig for the gig is too much for the room and the audience.
-
....but it all comes from having enough rig for the gig.
Unfortunately, all too often, having enough rig for the gig is too much for the room and the audience.
And that fault lies solely on stage, with the performers. If one needs mondo PA to keep up with the SVT and Marshall full stack shoe-horned onto the tiny corner stage at Joe's Watering Hole and Taxidermy, there's something wrong with the player's concept of 'entertainment', at least as it pertains to playing the room, not the ego.
-
Unfortunately, all too often, having enough rig for the gig is too much for the room and the audience.
And that fault lies solely on stage, with the performers. If one needs mondo PA to keep up with the SVT and Marshall full stack shoe-horned onto the tiny corner stage at Joe's Watering Hole and Taxidermy, there's something wrong with the player's concept of 'entertainment', at least as it pertains to playing the room, not the ego.
That's the promoter's call, not ours.
-
Unfortunately, all too often, having enough rig for the gig is too much for the room and the audience.
And that fault lies solely on stage, with the performers. If one needs mondo PA to keep up with the SVT and Marshall full stack shoe-horned onto the tiny corner stage at Joe's Watering Hole and Taxidermy, there's something wrong with the player's concept of 'entertainment', at least as it pertains to playing the room, not the ego.
That's the promoter's call, not ours.
And you'll note that I didn't take a position as the 'sound guy' on it. (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
-
I've been playing bass in bands since '68, and routinely run into noobie players usually haven't figured out the difference between making themselves sound good at home, and making an entire band sound good in public. To make matters worse, far too few band members (I didn't call 'em musicians for a reason) educate themselves about sound reinforcement; most don't know that it's at least as important to rehearse good sound as it is to rehearse songs. Pro musicians understand what it means to play the song and not the instrument; they also know that without good sound, the music fails.
....but it all comes from having enough rig for the gig.
Unfortunately, all too often, having enough rig for the gig is too much for the room and the audience.
And that fault lies solely on stage, with the performers. If one needs mondo PA to keep up with the SVT and Marshall full stack shoe-horned onto the tiny corner stage at Joe's Watering Hole and Taxidermy, there's something wrong with the player's concept of 'entertainment', at least as it pertains to playing the room, not the ego.