Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on October 30, 2016, 11:24:32 AM
I run a muck of a system which has seem to get me by for the most part. But Im starting to notice the lack of preformance in certain areas. Now I know most of you are going to bash me but heres what i run. Keeping in mind that i know their is some phase issues with my rig.
6-Sp4
6-218
6-60x40 44t homebrew horns ( i put a switch to turn off internal horns)
6 crown drivecore 2502 (bridged)
6 crown drivecore 1502 (bridged)
2 dbx drive rack pa2
2 Presonus 24.4.2
8- sp 215 mon
4 crown drivecore 2002 (mon)
For the most part The Tops and subs use to keep me happy.. But now i find myself fighting with them to achive a better sound..
So my question is.. Do i junk the Peavey FOH or do i upgrade to the Qw series?. I may do 5 nationals a year in s med size club.. But for the most part I do lots of local and up coming bands,festivals etc...
Will the qw be more aduequate to what im doing?
Post by: Brandon Scopel on October 30, 2016, 11:29:53 AM
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Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on October 30, 2016, 11:41:23 AM
Before anyone can respond, you must change your displayed name to your real full name as outlined in the rules when you created your account.
Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
I appologise for my ignorance..
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 30, 2016, 12:10:19 PM
I'm curious as to why you need so many top boxes. Can you tell us how you typically set up the speakers... where you point them, how you stack, etc?
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on October 30, 2016, 12:19:44 PM
The Peavey QWave were pretty stout and reasonably good sounding for their day; the subs were frequently praised.
I'm curious as to why you need so many top boxes. Can you tell us how you typically set up the speakers... where you point them, how you stack, etc?
I do quite a bit of Rock shows loud volume venues. I put a bypass on Sp4 internal gorns so i could use the 60x40 and just do a normal splay on tops seems to help with the high end a bit.
So its typicaly a /|\ Layout for tops.. i use the tops cabnet angle to splay them.
Mostly ive noticed my low end seems off.. I try as much as possiable to do a center cluster and run those in mono.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 30, 2016, 12:49:19 PM
I put a bypass on Sp4 internal gorns so i could use the 60x40 and just do a normal splay on tops seems to help with the high end a bit.I am confused by this statement-and the one in your original post that says you "bypassed the internal horns".
What exactly do you mean?
How do you bypass a horn?
Are you talking about the crossover?
And by "bypass" do you mean "turn off" or driving the horns with a separate crossover and amp?
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on October 30, 2016, 12:56:54 PM
I am confused by this statement-and the one in your original post that says you "bypassed the internal horns".
What exactly do you mean?
I have put a two way switch in and a 1/4 jack on the back. So if im just using 1 sp4 then i can use internal horn. But if im running more than one i flip the switch and it sends signal to 1/4 jack and out to 60x40s..
They are packed in the front of trailer if not for that i would take a pic.
How do you bypass a horn?
Are you talking about the crossover?
And by "bypass" do you mean "turn off" or driving the horns with a separate crossover and amp?
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on October 30, 2016, 01:01:07 PM
I have put a two way switch and a 1/4 jack in the tops. So I can use the internal horns when im only using a single top on each side, or when i flip the switch it sends the crossover horn freq to the jack and then power the 60x40s.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 30, 2016, 01:30:59 PM
If you are using the external horns, are they (in total) the same impedance as the internal horn?
I have put a two way switch and a 1/4 jack in the tops. So I can use the internal horns when im only using a single top on each side, or when i flip the switch it sends the crossover horn freq to the jack and then power the 60x40s.
If not, then the xover freq and performance will not be the same.
This will also put the horn and woofer spacing further apart than the horn in the cabinet.
This will cause "abnormalities" in the freq response over different listening positions.
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 30, 2016, 01:37:48 PM
A Fulrum or Danley or even the Soundforums DIY box would walk all over this weird pile of firewood.
Post by: Paul G. OBrien on October 30, 2016, 01:42:06 PM
I have put a two way switch and a 1/4 jack in the tops. So I can use the internal horns when im only using a single top on each side, or when i flip the switch it sends the crossover horn freq to the jack and then power the 60x40s.
So you're not tri-amping this system? How old are those Sp4? Do they not have the bi-amping option on the rear panel? There are definitely a lot of improvements you could make so stick around and keep asking questions.
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 30, 2016, 01:44:35 PM
Yes it's expensive, but you only have to buy a pair. And you only have to move one pair each gig. The savings add up....
I'd suggest 4 Danley TH118's and a pair of SM80's or a pair of RCF sub9007's and a pair of TTL6a's. The RCF's are powered so you can factor in the price of amps for the Danley rig vs the RCF.
Post by: John Chiara on October 30, 2016, 01:50:23 PM
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on October 30, 2016, 01:58:56 PM
So the horns i use in splay are of the dame impedance 8ohms. I am not in anyway changing the impedance its still a 4ohm bix when this is done.. well 3.8ohms by the ok ohm meter at speakon javks on rear.. but its the same with either horn set up.
Im not truly triamping these I put anything over a 100hz in the tops and anything below 100hz in the subs.
The sp4s are the grey faced.
Im almost wondering if this whole Class D amplification is what its cracked up to be?
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on October 30, 2016, 02:04:37 PM
And ive looked at EAW kf755s both applications over SB 1000 subs..
But man they are still proud of that gear! Takes deep pockets to go that way..
Post by: Tim Weaver on October 30, 2016, 02:07:32 PM
I have been looking into the EAW kf695z
And ive looked at EAW kf755s both applications over SB 1000 subs..
But man they are still proud of that gear! Takes deep pockets to go that way..
I would, by far, go with KF695's. But even then you really really want to use EAW's UX processor. It makes a world of difference.
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on October 30, 2016, 02:09:34 PM
Post by: Steve Eudaly on October 30, 2016, 02:19:03 PM
I have been looking into the EAW kf695z
And ive looked at EAW kf755s both applications over SB 1000 subs..
But man they are still proud of that gear! Takes deep pockets to go that way..
Lots of used KF boxes on the market these days for fairly cheap if that's the way you want to go.
If you're accustomed to carrying all the weight of your current system, it seems you wouldn't have much of an issue with KF6xx.
And as Tim said, definitely factor in the cost of a UX dsp if you go that route. It's really a critical component of the system.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 30, 2016, 02:24:32 PM
Ok so Im gonna attemt to answer all the questions.You say "horns" as in more than one. When you put drivers in parallel, the impedance goes lower-it DOES NOT stay the same as a single unit.
So the horns i use in splay are of the dame impedance 8ohms. I am not in anyway changing the impedance its still a 4ohm bix when this is done.. well 3.8ohms by the ok ohm meter at speakon javks on rear.. but its the same with either horn set up.
You CANNOT check impedance with a ohm meter-ESPECIALLY with a passive crossover.
Your "simple DC meter test" (ohmmeter) DOES NOT in any way measure ANY LOAD that the horns put on the input jack.
To measure IMPEDANCE (the opposition to flow of an AC signal) you MUST use an impedance meter and sweep the freq range.
A single freq impedance meter is barely one step above an ohm meter.
Impedance is NOT a single number, and varies quite a bit with freq.
The 1st series capacitor in the crossover BLOCKS the DC from your meter.
You could short the horn terminals and the DC RESISTANCE you are trying to measure will not change.
HOWEVER the amp you are using would notice.
You have bigger problems to worry about rather than class D amplification.
Why do you say that you don't think class D is not what it is cracked up to be? What do you base that on?
I am NOT trying to be mean (but it may seem that way), but rather just pointing out things that it appears you are not aware of.
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on October 30, 2016, 02:36:22 PM
Im only "replacing" the 22xt with a 44 driver so to speak and changing it from 120x90 to 60x40.
The ohms of the cabinet stay the same. Their is one 60x40 for each top that i can use if needed. I hope im making sence..
Lol this has become a mess.. Im only trying to eliminate phase of the horns..
I think im just gonna open up the wallet and buy some better gear..
Trying to make this whole system work has became more of a nucence than actually ecplaining to the wife where $20k went from bank acc.. ;D
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 30, 2016, 04:32:15 PM
What im saying is.. Im not changing the inpedance of the cabnet.The reason I brought it up was that you said "horns"-meaning more than one.
Im only "replacing" the 22xt with a 44 driver so to speak and changing it from 120x90 to 60x40.
The ohms of the cabinet stay the same. Their is one 60x40 for each top that i can use if needed. I hope im making sence..
Lol this has become a mess.. Im only trying to eliminate phase of the horns..
So how are you "trying to eliminate phase of the horns"?
Everything has "phase". And the further you separate components, the more phase shift you are introducing-depending on where you are seated.
When you go to a stronger driver on a narrower horn, the SPL is going to increase a good bit. But the coverage is going to decrease.
How are you dealing with the narrowing of the coverage?
Post by: Jerome Malsack on October 30, 2016, 05:20:22 PM
44xt driver 160 watts 2 inch throat. XF 1000. 111 db at 1 watt 1 meter.
when outside the 120 wide dispersion of the horn on the 22xt will get you wide but not deep.
and your thinking is the 44 xt with a narrow horn of 60 wide will get you deep but not wide.
https://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80302103.pdf
http://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80300451.pdf
What is the horns attached to each drivers and pictures may help some.
if inside a room the 60 degree horn may help to keep reflections off the walls.
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 30, 2016, 05:56:03 PM
The pattern of the horn has NOTHING to do with how far it will "throw".
when outside the 120 wide dispersion of the horn on the 22xt will get you wide but not deep.
and your thinking is the 44 xt with a narrow horn of 60 wide will get you deep but not wide.
if inside a room the 60 degree horn may help to keep reflections off the walls.
You cannot "throw" sound, it simply propagates/moves through the air.
The narrower pattern will ONLY help at those freq for which the horn is LARGE ENOUGH to actually have control over those freq.
For the same size horn, the wider horn will control freq lower than a narrower horn.
So the narrower horn may be losing pattern control (depending on the physical size), while the wider horn may still be controlling the pattern.
SO-the wider may actually have LESS reflections off of the walls.
This of course depends on a number of different factors, but people VERY OFTEN don't realize that in order for the narrower horn to keep the same energy off of the walls, it MUST be larger.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 30, 2016, 06:08:37 PM
The reason I brought it up was that you said "horns"-meaning more than one.
So how are you "trying to eliminate phase of the horns"?
Everything has "phase". And the further you separate components, the more phase shift you are introducing-depending on where you are seated.
When you go to a stronger driver on a narrower horn, the SPL is going to increase a good bit. But the coverage is going to decrease.
How are you dealing with the narrowing of the coverage?
"Pardon me, Miss, but I speak Jive."
"Jack, everything you're doing to kludge this together to reach a result we're not entirely certain about is likely a waste of further funding in light of the size/weight/price/value of current loudspeaker systems. If you want to know why the kludge creates additional or different problems (and hence burns any investment made in "improvements"), we can discuss that, too."
Post by: Rob Spence on October 30, 2016, 06:36:35 PM
I would suggest you not do what some guys who want to upgrade have done, that is just ask a couple of questions and then spend a bunch of $$ and come back and ask if they did good - they usually didn't.
Instead, stay around and let us help you figure out your goals, figure out a budget and then spec out some gear and a plan to get you to your goals.
Many members here are dealers for various brands and likely can get you better pricing than you can find on your own.
So, that brings up the big questions...
1) what do you want your rig to do?
2) what doesn't it do now that you want to correct ?
3) how much money (and over what time period) can you spend?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on October 30, 2016, 08:49:34 PM
In my area their are way to many production companies fighting for work now.
My goal is to be reliable and have a system that i can cover atleast 4000 people.
I have used Peavey gear only because its what im use to as the local music store carries this brand.. To be honest its not a bad sounding system..
I have thought about going with EAW... But all the prossesing it takes to achive a sound is rediculious.
With the 22xt horns i start loosing thise at about 45feet.
With the 44s and the 40x60 i can direct more sound to where i want and need it.
Although sometimes i feel the system is working to hard and i really do push this rig..
I would like to either make this work or move on to another brand hopefully one i could just use my dbx PA2s on..
Seems that alot of people in this chat just shun off Peavey all together.. But Peavey pre china had some of the toughest amps and speakers around. Maybe they are not as clear as others. But they are def dependable..
So i have a open mind about everything and i will take some pics of what im using and how i set up and maybe someone will help me achive what im looking for.
I just want a great sound without empty pockets..
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 30, 2016, 09:02:59 PM
Im not looking to get a super huge system.. I wanna be able to do more nationals.If you are talking about doing national acts for 4000 people, then you are going to need some deep pockets-depending on what else you already own.
In my area their are way to many production companies fighting for work now.
My goal is to be reliable and have a system that i can cover atleast 4000 people.
I would start by looking at what your competition is using.
That should give you an idea of what is needed.
Post by: John Chiara on October 30, 2016, 09:48:56 PM
Quality at an appropriate price.
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on October 31, 2016, 01:06:41 AM
If there are too many companies and you don't want empty pockets, I am confused what it is you expect to accomplish. Being the ankle biter with cheap gear trying to break into a market is not a good way to make friends and influence people! Plus, it kinda screws up what we all work to uphold.
Quality at an appropriate price.
Ankle biter i am not! Its seems that most of the " Sound engineers" put down most of everyones equipment. Everyone started somewhere.. Chances are I prob have a better ear for mixing than most "Pros".
Now in saying that i have mixed on RCF,Vertec,myer,eaw line arrays for some Big acts..
But who has the money for all that gear with no promise of work..
Every one around here cuts the rate just to get the work.. I turn away more than i take for the simple fact of how cheap it is. Now do i know my rig is less than desirable?? Yes i do.. That was the whole reason for asking some questions.. I didnt and will not go to a school for this... seems sincless really.. either you got it or you dont.. having a good ear cant be teached.. But im always willing to learn from my fellow bretheren!
I thank you all for you replys!! And i did learn a few things today.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on October 31, 2016, 01:36:38 AM
Ankle biter i am not! Its seems that most of the " Sound engineers" put down most of everyones equipment. Everyone started somewhere.. Chances are I prob have a better ear for mixing than most "Pros".
Now in saying that i have mixed on RCF,Vertec,myer,eaw line arrays for some Big acts..
But who has the money for all that gear with no promise of work..
Every one around here cuts the rate just to get the work.. I turn away more than i take for the simple fact of how cheap it is. Now do i know my rig is less than desirable?? Yes i do.. That was the whole reason for asking some questions.. I didnt and will not go to a school for this... seems sincless really.. either you got it or you dont.. having a good ear cant be teached.. But im always willing to learn from my fellow bretheren!
I thank you all for you replys!! And i did learn a few things today.
Jack, the fact you want to reuse your PA2's and you mention that "all that processing" EAW requires speaks more to filling knowledge gap and equipment. You can have the best ear in the world but if you not a systems guy and have a good working knowledge of acoustic principals you can't move up to this level.
BTW I am in now way an expert on these topics. But I am learning, trying to improve my skills. There is no better place to do that than in these rooms.
No you can go away sore, feeling put down by arrogant guys or you can realize these are the people being successful at the level you want to work and are willing to share their experience.
I hope you stay.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 31, 2016, 03:14:46 AM
Ankle biter i am not! Its seems that most of the " Sound engineers" put down most of everyones equipment. Everyone started somewhere.. Chances are I prob have a better ear for mixing than most "Pros".
Now in saying that i have mixed on RCF,Vertec,myer,eaw line arrays for some Big acts..
But who has the money for all that gear with no promise of work..
Every one around here cuts the rate just to get the work.. I turn away more than i take for the simple fact of how cheap it is. Now do i know my rig is less than desirable?? Yes i do.. That was the whole reason for asking some questions.. I didnt and will not go to a school for this... seems sincless really.. either you got it or you dont.. having a good ear cant be teached.. But im always willing to learn from my fellow bretheren!
I thank you all for you replys!! And i did learn a few things today.
Hi Jack-
Strictly for business' sake I think you should look long and hard at where your revenue comes from. Is there more money available if you up your game in an audible way? By more I mean either a bigger fee per gig, or a significant amount of additional work you'd get by having greater capabilities/better quality/rider acceptability (or the "shiny, new" rig in town)? There's no reason to spend more money if that spending doesn't return back to you.
Brand names *do* influence many clients and if that's marketable for you, you should seize on it. OTOH don't let "Sound engineers" fishing stories about how big was the rig that got away get to you. Unless you buy gear that's genuinely duff, it's mostly brand preferences.
I finally grokked your HF horn thing and understand why you do it. It's certainly better than some of the other things we've seen here in the forums but there is a whole physics class in why it's less than optimum.
As for processing - that's the reality today. The system manufacturers have been developing their processing for the last 20 years and now they can fix some previously unfixable things (like horn resonances). The comments about using the new EAW processing if you buy EAW speakers is spot on. It's not to extract more money from you, it's to make the rig sound the way it's expected to sound (which, even for EAW legacy products, will be pretty darn good).
So for starts, Jack, do a business plan and see if it's realistic to buy new gear and how much new revenue you'll have to bring it to pay for it. We can go from there.
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 31, 2016, 06:01:17 AM
I didnt and will not go to a school for this... seems sincless really.. either you got it or you dont.. having a good ear cant be teached.. But im always willing to learn from my fellow bretheren!You would be surprised how much you could learn from some good classes. Like Synaudcon classes.
You may "think" you know a few things, but you will QUICKLY realize how little you know.
It can be money well spent.
I find that the people who are most reluctant to go to classes are the ones WHO NEED IT THE MOST.
It wasn't until I started learning that I realized how little I actually knew.
There A LOT more to running a sound business than "having a good ear".
Knowing how gear works is REAL important.
Post by: Tom Burgess on October 31, 2016, 12:50:45 PM
That's a good one right there, Ivan. Permission to steal?
It wasn't until I started learning that I realized how little I actually knew.
Post by: Chuck Simon on October 31, 2016, 12:54:43 PM
That's a good one right there, Ivan. Permission to steal?
I think you might have to get permission from Socrates for that one!
Post by: Bradford "BJ" James on October 31, 2016, 12:55:08 PM
So i have a open mind about everything
Ankle biter i am not! Its seems that most of the " Sound engineers" put down most of everyones equipment. Everyone started somewhere.. Chances are I prob have a better ear for mixing than most "Pros".
I didnt and will not go to a school for this... seems sincless really.. either you got it or you dont.. having a good ear cant be teached.. But im always willing to learn from my fellow bretheren!Well hey, at least you have an open mind about this.
BJ
Post by: Tom Burgess on October 31, 2016, 01:04:52 PM
I think you might have to get permission from Socrates for that one!Socrates, Ivan.... whatever it takes. :)
I'm familiar with the sentiment but don't recall seeing it stated in such a succinct manner. I guess that's what I get for not studying Socrates?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on October 31, 2016, 01:25:53 PM
Socrates, Ivan.... whatever it takes. :)The real problem is that once you start to understand, you realize there is A LOT more that goes into whatever you are learning about.
I'm familiar with the sentiment but don't recall seeing it stated in such a succinct manner. I guess that's what I get for not studying Socrates?
So it almost seems as if you know less and less, the more you learn.
I guess that is why some people are happy not knowing much :) All the "little details" don't bother them. They just think they are right without knowing how wrong they are.
Post by: lindsay Dean on October 31, 2016, 02:37:43 PM
Delivering Good information with a baseball bat with nails on this business end, is a nonproductive style.
People do not like the taste of it.
Of course they can always go somewhere else.... but why?
Post by: Rob Spence on October 31, 2016, 03:26:44 PM
The real problem is that once you start to understand, you realize there is A LOT more that goes into whatever you are learning about.
I got that loud and clear the week I met Tim in Phoenix and we sipped from Scovie's fire hose.
I have taken SMAART classes a couple of times and am still a novice at that.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Post by: Ray Aberle on October 31, 2016, 03:49:00 PM
There are a lot of posters on this site that are near or at expert level. audio is a many splendid thing........butI disagree with your assertion that good information (at least in this thread) is not being delivered in a productive manner. Re-reading through things, the OP is asking questions, and they're being answered, both in a technical aspect but also "here's why I am saying what I am saying."
Delivering Good information with a baseball bat with nails on this business end, is a nonproductive style.
People do not like the taste of it.
Of course they can always go somewhere else.... but why?
Naturally, I hope that the OP isn't getting turned off by the answers- but if he is, I suspect it's more on the receiving end than the transmitting side. (For example, "everyone started somewhere!" was a response to people wanting to help him make appropriate choices based on the information being given about the business, gear available, and goals. It's a fact that the stated gear isn't going to do a show for 4,000 people, for a national act, at least in a manner that will get him called back again... if his gear even survives the show...)
He is, after all, looking for advice. I hope he doesn't complain about the advice being provided. Especially given its cost...
-Ray
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 31, 2016, 03:53:54 PM
There are a lot of posters on this site that are near or at expert level. audio is a many splendid thing........but
Delivering Good information with a baseball bat with nails on this business end, is a nonproductive style.
People do not like the taste of it.
Of course they can always go somewhere else.... but why?
Now Lindsay, the spiked bat is for the advanced lessons!
I think an apt analogy is "taking a drink from a fire hose." There is a lot of info and provocation in Ivan's posts because what he's trying to do is get people to THINK. He presents a lot because there is a lot to consider and if his style is brusque, oh well. Not all teachers have the same technique and, unlike schools, here we can pick from whom we learn.
There is also a significant "community" here at PSW and that's the way LAB founder Dave Stevens (who has been popping back in recently) intended things to be. And like in a physical neighborhood there are people you have greater and lesser preference for (but here it's easier to avoid them) but most all contribute to the community in some fashion.
It helps if new users get to hang out and read a whole lot of posts from many different people and get a sense of the community before posting. I know that's not the way things are today in an era of zero attention span and little patience, but that's the way things were done back in UseNet days and that experience has served me well enough to suggest it to others.
Finally, an answer or response is not rendered invalid simply because it's not the answer (or form) an OP expects.
Post by: lindsay Dean on October 31, 2016, 04:04:05 PM
Post by: Jeff Lelko on October 31, 2016, 04:25:10 PM
The point I'm trying to make is that you need to create a business plan first. You made the right decision by asking for help before spending any money! Since you say there's stiff competition in your market, have you figured out if you can even break in? Sometime reputation comes before lowest price. If the answer to that question is "yes I can", then figure out what all you need to buy to succeed at the desired level and how much you can charge for your services to use it. Based on that, you can determine a budget and come back to us saying "I have XX amount spend on a system to cover YY amount of space with ZZ amount of people in it. Where would my money best be spent?". Hope this advice helps you in some way and don't give up on this!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on October 31, 2016, 04:38:06 PM
Jack, I think the reason you're getting some very upfront opinions here is because there are a lot of inconsistencies in your posts. You say you want to play nationals with a crowd of 4000 but currently play local gigs and up coming bands,festivals etc. Those two brackets are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum and you normally don't make such a big jump overnight. It's been said here before, and I'll say it again - when you try to 'up your game' so to speak, everything in your rig needs to be at that next level, not just your speakers. This includes your mixer, your microphones, your wireless, your electrical, all of it. For example, there's nothing wrong with using your Presonus 24.4.2 at the local festival. The same board would never cut it with any of the national acts you're probably hoping to work with. Believe me, I'm not trying to bash your gear! There's just a reason why some equipment has two zeros in the price tag and others have 5. You yourself is also included in that. Wrangling a large format system is a whole new ballgame versus the more lounge level systems and will take a fair amount of practice to get it right. Most national acts are very intolerant of engineers that don't know how to use their system.
The point I'm trying to make is that you need to create a business plan first. You made the right decision by asking for help before spending any money! Since you say there's stiff competition in your market, have you figured out if you can even break in? Sometime reputation comes before lowest price. If the answer to that question is "yes I can", then figure out what all you need to buy to succeed at the desired level and how much you can charge for your services to use it. Based on that, you can determine a budget and come back to us saying "I have XX amount spend on a system to cover YY amount of space with ZZ amount of people in it. Where would my money best be spent?". Hope this advice helps you in some way and don't give up on this!
This is the crux of the biscuit. Business plan. What has sufficed as a *plan* while working in bars and small events is unlikely to be enough to guide a business into its next stage of growth.
Jack, one more thing. We really, really want you to make good decisions for the right reasons and be happily successful. You've laid out a very difficult market situation and a likely need to make a significant investment in hardware (some of which, as Jeff alludes to, you probably haven't thought of yet). You probably have to keep your significant other happy in this process, too. That's a whole lotta stuff to be juggling. Keep in mind that you're undertaking a total and complete revision to your company - think of this as raising a teenager...
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on October 31, 2016, 07:45:49 PM
Ankle biter i am not! Its seems that most of the " Sound engineers" put down most of everyones equipment. Everyone started somewhere.. Chances are I prob have a better ear for mixing than most "Pros".
Now in saying that i have mixed on RCF,Vertec,myer,eaw line arrays for some Big acts..
But who has the money for all that gear with no promise of work..
Every one around here cuts the rate just to get the work.. I turn away more than i take for the simple fact of how cheap it is. Now do i know my rig is less than desirable?? Yes i do.. That was the whole reason for asking some questions.. I didnt and will not go to a school for this... seems sincless really.. either you got it or you dont.. having a good ear cant be teached.. But im always willing to learn from my fellow bretheren!
I thank you all for you replys!! And i did learn a few things today.
Jack;
For a short time Peavey made an SP7 https://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80304855.pdf It was a SP4 with the 44 driver in it. You could put the 44 horn driver and lens in the SP4. At least a few of them. This would bring the horn closer to the top 15 driver for better phase alignment. You could triamp the system and check the delay time peavey used for the sp7 (.69ms) and go from there.
I owned both the SP1g https://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/80304481.pdf and later the QW1 https://assets.peavey.com/literature/manuals/qw1specs.pdf which was a very professional box and had plenty of output. Both had the same horn driver you use. I believe people are concerned about the distance between the horn setting on top and the mid 15 and how it effects the overall sound of the box.
Better , quality sound always trumps "loud" but less coherent pile of boxes every time.
Peavey is fine if it keeps you working and works for your clients. Move to triamp and a more quality sound can be brought out with what you have. I believe Peavey just came out with a new digital crossover with some presets that may work for you.
Douglas R. Allen
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on December 04, 2016, 11:49:02 PM
First off My beautiful wife delivered my son Waylon on Nov 9th!! super stoked about my first son!! whoo hoo!!
Second off i have read everyones post and applied some things in the last 2 weeks! As for me I do somewhat understand phase and placement, that was the whole idea of what I posted. But thats none for worries now.
I have narrowed it down to 2 systems. I would like some input on what system to buy.
System1
16 RCF HD-20
8 RCF8006 SUBS
These boxes seem to have internal processing and are active.
System 2
16 PEAVEY VERSSARAY 212
8 VERSARRAY 218 SUBS
4 VERSARRAY 124 SUBS (AUX FED) Down side is the truck load of power amps it will take to run it!
2 VSX 48
I have used both of these systems.. IM torn between the two! I also looked at a DAS audio system but was not all that impressed.
So yes one system is Powered and one is not.. what are your thoughts guys? Thanks in advance!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 05, 2016, 03:44:01 AM
System 2
16 PEAVEY VERSSARAY 212
8 VERSARRAY 218 SUBS
4 VERSARRAY 124 SUBS (AUX FED) Down side is the truck load of power amps it will take to run it!
2 VSX 48
I have used both of these systems.. IM torn between the two! I also looked at a DAS audio system but was not all that impressed.
So yes one system is Powered and one is not.. what are your thoughts guys? Thanks in advance!
You still need amplifiers and system DSP for the Peavey rig.
The RCF rig requires fewer fiddly rigging bits, will deploy more quickly and have better brand acceptance. I'm intrigued by the Peavey subwoofer options but I'm still skeptical of the ribbon HF driver lifespan in high output situations.
I went out the hear the original Versarray rig and found some aspects to be better than expected but it fell short in several potentially critical ways. The 2nd generation addressed a couple of my concerns but others were not within the sharp pencil range Peavey was aiming for. IMHO it takes a lot of system DSP and amplifier granularity (and the system chops) to really make the Versarray rig perform optimally, and those factors add up to make it more expensive than it first appears. Don't get me wrong, I wanted to *really* like this system but it became apparent that it wasn't what we were looking for in a mid-size vertical array.
The RCF HDL20a is a capable product in the compact array category. I'm not a fan of 2 way elements and I've heard this rig horribly mis-deployed which made me like it less. When you finally grok the difference between what you see in the RCF predictions and what you actually hear the rig can sound pretty good provided you have enough of it. Your 8 box/side plan is the absolute minimum for this model, IMHO. The other benefit is that the RCF will be a much easier sell to clients than Peavey.
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on December 05, 2016, 10:32:54 AM
You still need amplifiers and system DSP for the Peavey rig.
The RCF rig requires fewer fiddly rigging bits, will deploy more quickly and have better brand acceptance. I'm intrigued by the Peavey subwoofer options but I'm still skeptical of the ribbon HF driver lifespan in high output situations.
I went out the hear the original Versarray rig and found some aspects to be better than expected but it fell short in several potentially critical ways. The 2nd generation addressed a couple of my concerns but others were not within the sharp pencil range Peavey was aiming for. IMHO it takes a lot of system DSP and amplifier granularity (and the system chops) to really make the Versarray rig perform optimally, and those factors add up to make it more expensive than it first appears. Don't get me wrong, I wanted to *really* like this system but it became apparent that it wasn't what we were looking for in a mid-size vertical array.
The RCF HDL20a is a capable product in the compact array category. I'm not a fan of 2 way elements and I've heard this rig horribly mis-deployed which made me like it less. When you finally grok the difference between what you see in the RCF predictions and what you actually hear the rig can sound pretty good provided you have enough of it. Your 8 box/side plan is the absolute minimum for this model, IMHO. The other benefit is that the RCF will be a much easier sell to clients than Peavey.
Yes i know the Versarray will need amps and Dsp.. I posted that it was one of the downfalls of using this.. LOL. I have a friend that uses the RCF and ive seen this rig rock out, and I have also seen this system fall on its face!
I was down at Daytona Beach Fl for bike week a couple of years back and as you all know... their is no better place to hear in real world what a system sounds like!
I listend to Vertec,Das,Versarray,Eaw, Etc... you get the point..
But.. I was drawn back to the Jagermister stage! It sounded Amazing!! Full chest pumping Lows, Non harsh Mid range, And clear crisp highs...
Now in saying this I know the tech works on the Peavey stage all the time and he has had time to tune and figure out this system.. But IT BLEW AWAY ITS COMPETITORS!! HANDS DOWN.
RCF will be more rider friendly though! And that array has had my eye every since i was introduced to it!
my only complaint.. I just cant seem to sell myself on powered boxes!!! and at $3500 a top and $4900 a sub its crazy for someone of my level to keep spares incase of equipment failure.. Way easier to keep a spare amp in rack and just switch out some cables..
But I would love to hear some real world advice on these two systems!!!
Post by: Don T. Williams on December 05, 2016, 01:36:42 PM
I have only heard the Versarray 212's once at a trade show and thought it sounded very, very good. That being said, it was recorded music and only a few boxes. Real world live with a lot more boxes is a whole different universe! I have dozens of tech riders that state "absolute no Peavy". I have yet to see no RCF. My experience is at the level you want to transition to.
We all know that some gear from almost any larger manufacturer is marketed to the hobbyist and some for pros (OK maybe not L-Acoustics, or D&B, and a few others). JBL JRX does not equal VRX, and EAW Anya is a whole lot different from the LA series. I'm not saying there isn't a market and a place for all of these products, but . . . Look at the tech riders for the size events your are trying capture. I'll bet the RCF is a lot more rider friendly.
FULL DISCLOSURE - I do not have a RCF concert system, but I am a RCF dealer. I do provide sound systems for events with audiences of (and in excess of) 5,000 patrons on a regular basis.
Post by: Tim Weaver on December 05, 2016, 02:07:52 PM
Yes i know the Versarray will need amps and Dsp.. I posted that it was one of the downfalls of using this.. LOL. I have a friend that uses the RCF and ive seen this rig rock out, and I have also seen this system fall on its face!
I was down at Daytona Beach Fl for bike week a couple of years back and as you all know... their is no better place to hear in real world what a system sounds like!
I listend to Vertec,Das,Versarray,Eaw, Etc... you get the point..
But.. I was drawn back to the Jagermister stage! It sounded Amazing!! Full chest pumping Lows, Non harsh Mid range, And clear crisp highs...
Now in saying this I know the tech works on the Peavey stage all the time and he has had time to tune and figure out this system.. But IT BLEW AWAY ITS COMPETITORS!! HANDS DOWN.
RCF will be more rider friendly though! And that array has had my eye every since i was introduced to it!
my only complaint.. I just cant seem to sell myself on powered boxes!!! and at $3500 a top and $4900 a sub its crazy for someone of my level to keep spares incase of equipment failure.. Way easier to keep a spare amp in rack and just switch out some cables..
But I would love to hear some real world advice on these two systems!!!
Congrats on the kiddo!
I have heard this more than once about that Jagermeister stage. The caveat being: Those weren't Versarray 112's which have no where near the capability of the Vray212's, AND they used some healthy DSP power AND had some top guys tuning that rig everyday.
Go for the RCF. You will save yourself a ton of headache and heartbreak.
Also the RCF rig gets sooo much louder than its size would lead you to believe. If you have a failure just drop a box on each side and keep going. Think of it this way, if the Vray rig looses and amp a whole section of the PA goes out. If the RCF looses an amp 1 cabinet goes out....
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 05, 2016, 02:19:22 PM
Yes i know the Versarray will need amps and Dsp.. I posted that it was one of the downfalls of using this.. LOL. I have a friend that uses the RCF and ive seen this rig rock out, and I have also seen this system fall on its face!
I was down at Daytona Beach Fl for bike week a couple of years back and as you all know... their is no better place to hear in real world what a system sounds like!
I listend to Vertec,Das,Versarray,Eaw, Etc... you get the point..
But.. I was drawn back to the Jagermister stage! It sounded Amazing!! Full chest pumping Lows, Non harsh Mid range, And clear crisp highs...
Now in saying this I know the tech works on the Peavey stage all the time and he has had time to tune and figure out this system.. But IT BLEW AWAY ITS COMPETITORS!! HANDS DOWN.
RCF will be more rider friendly though! And that array has had my eye every since i was introduced to it!
my only complaint.. I just cant seem to sell myself on powered boxes!!! and at $3500 a top and $4900 a sub its crazy for someone of my level to keep spares incase of equipment failure.. Way easier to keep a spare amp in rack and just switch out some cables..
But I would love to hear some real world advice on these two systems!!!
You can order a spare plate amp for each model for far less that keeping spare boxes on hand. We own 32 DB Technologies ("RCF Lite") T4 elements and have had zero failures since we started with them almost 4 years ago... no transducers or amps have given us trouble... And since you have another HDL-20a rig near you, I think you could rent replacements for the brief time it takes for RCF to handle warranty service. On-site spares are less necessary, continue reading...
Losing 1 element in an 8 box line array isn't show stopper; it's inconvenient and you might have to make some apologies later, but the show will go on.
Engineers designing powered speakers are very aware that often the product will not be in an immediately accessible location and I suspect they design in a bit more reliability for that reason. FWIW, we've had a greater failure rate of I-Tech HD amplifiers (2 out of 52 over 3 years) than we have had with the "cheap" T4.
Disclosure: we're RCF/DB Tech dealers, too, and I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone via this forum...
Post by: Steve Garris on December 05, 2016, 02:41:54 PM
This has been an excellent thread, informative and a bit funny at times. If you are truly prepared to move up to the pro level then my hat goes off to you. I fully agree with the recommendations regarding new training, rider friendliness, using powered boxes or recommended processing, and the fact that good trumps loud.
I'd like to thank Ivan for pointing me to this online training. As a lounge guy until I drop dead, I still feel like I need to know more. I'm going to start the course myself at the first of the year. It's only $200/course.
http://www.prosoundtraining.com/site/online-audio-training-courses/
And I'd like to thank (Tim? I think) for some great, hilarious new terms:
Murderize
Weird pile of firewood - LOL!
Post by: Tim Weaver on December 05, 2016, 03:29:53 PM
And I'd like to thank (Tim? I think) for some great, hilarious new terms:
Murderize
Weird pile of firewood - LOL!
(http://www.allthingsclipart.com/07/bowing.13.jpg)
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 05, 2016, 05:09:04 PM
Just as a removed observer, what would make tremendously more sense is to buy a system that you will use regularly and then rent this larger system for the few times a year you actually need it...if you ever do. If you have a friend who owns this - rent it from him! If it gets to the point where you're seeing regular, profitable business from the bigger rig, then maybe consider buying your own. Don't mean to sound blunt here, but deep pockets and shiny new gear won't solve all your problems.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 05, 2016, 08:05:42 PM
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a bit here... Reading this thread through a few times, we start with you looking to expand/replace a "weird pile of firewood" as Tim so eloquently put it. Based on the way you talk and what you've said so far, your true knowledge and understanding of the workings of a sound system is spotty at best (see pages 1 - 3), you have no interest in furthering your education in the science of live sound, and to quote yourself, think "opening up the wallet and buying some better gear" will magically solve your issues. Then somehow we depart from QW Systems and arrive at line array systems, which are only another magnitude of cost greater than where we started, and you still seem to have no idea if you can even break into the regional market to take these gigs! Something's just not adding up to me...
Just as a removed observer, what would make tremendously more sense is to buy a system that you will use regularly and then rent this larger system for the few times a year you actually need it...if you ever do. If you have a friend who owns this - rent it from him! If it gets to the point where you're seeing regular, profitable business from the bigger rig, then maybe consider buying your own. Don't mean to sound blunt here, but deep pockets and shiny new gear won't solve all your problems.
I was waiting for his next reply to ask "so, how is that business plan coming along?"
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 05, 2016, 09:37:52 PM
So earlier in this thread, you mentioned:
Trying to make this whole system work has became more of a nucence than actually ecplaining to the wife where $20k went from bank acc.. ;DNow, I hope you realise the cost difference between $20K and what you're now looking at. I ran some numbers...
RCF HDL20A rig - 16*3199 and 8*4599 is $87,976
Peavey Versarry rig - 16*3999, 8*2399, 4*2199 and 2*362.80 (only price I could find; I suspect that processor has been discod) is $92,697.60 (and lacks amplifiers still)
Beyond those prices, you will probably need:
- Covers/caster boards
- New cabling infrastructure
- New power infrastructure (even a basic ML distro will start around $5k, plus rack distribution if you go the Peavey route, then there's cam feeder/tails)
- New consoles (If you want to do nationals, as mentioned before those Presonus boards won't cut it)
- Rigging hardware (AND THE TRAINING TO DO IT SAFELY!!) - flybars, supplies, motors, motor distro, cabling
- New monitors (National "A" acts won't accept what you have now)
- New snake (to support the new consoles you're buying)
- Cases to keep all of your new hardware looking pretty
- Truck to transport all of this in
Take a shot at the price you're looking at... I'd start at $250K and go up from there.
If you have $250-$300k in the bank, then you're set. If not, you're looking at borrowing that money. Let's be conservative, $250K, 5 years, 8% interest - you are looking at an approximate monthly payment of $5,069.10. (I hope that's close- I had to cheat and use a mortgage calculator to get these numbers. Haha. If they track it, someone will be wondering why someone would want a 5-year mortgage for a $250,000 house... lolz.)
So it gets worse. (Sorry, Dan Savage (http://www.itgetsbetter.org/)!) Typically, when you jump into a large format sound system, UNLESS you have a PILE of clients that are all ready to hire your new rig, you're looking at upwards of 18 months before enough people even know you have the gear before you're booking enough shows to really make it worthwhile. We bought our VerTec rig in the spring of 2014, and it's just been the past few months that we are finally getting it working enough to really make the purchase worth it. That's 30 months, buddy. So, you need to be able to plan for covering those lease payments during the "dry" months that you simply don't have the bookings to be able to pay your lease. The leasing companies aren't going to want to hear that... they want their money. And just buying a big sound system and hanging out your shingle isn't going to magically get you shows- people need to know not only that you have this new rig, but also that you know what the hell you're doing with it.
This is why the all-important Business Plan is so vital. You need to sit down and REALISTICALLY look at where your money is coming from now, and if you can afford to take on this level of debt load. Will this new system pay for itself? I know the itch to get new gear is great, and you dream of having a big shop full of pretty speakers -- but if those speakers aren't out working, you're going to be SOL. Not only is that just personally depressing, but now you have the wife and kiddo to think about.
Let's say you're working 5 shows a month, and billing out $1,000 each. With this new rig, can you increase the billing on each of those 5 shows to $2,500? Alternatively, can you still work those 5 shows a month AND book three new shows at $3,000 each? (Having a higher priced "A" rig and a moderately priced "B" rig is a great way to do this!) After paying two techs and supplies/fuel/insurance/etc, you might put $2,000 in the bank for each of those three new shows, and that will cover your new expenses, AND let you continue making the money you are today. If you can't increase your monthly NET income by the $5,000 it will take to pay for this new lease, then you need to step back and re-think your plans. Because, if you ignore that warning sign and JUMP ALL IN- you will find yourself 6 months down the road losing first this new system (repo'd by the bank) and then maybe even the rest of your gear, or (depending on how your business structure is set up) maybe even your house. And that would suck.
So here's something else to think about: You mentioned that your market area sucks, and that people aren't getting paid what they're worth. As a comparison (we're a Harman house) if we send out our entire VerTec rig (16bx of VT4888, 12bx of SRX728S) for a show, market rate runs about $3,300 just for the gear rental- then there's labor, consoles, monitors, everything else-- so a one day show can easily be $6,000 to $7,000. If a promoter came to me and said they "only have $2,000 for PA," we'd pass on the show. Not only does that mess with the market by offering gear at a reduced rate like that, I also can't pay the bills if we're not getting paid what our system (and techs!) is worth. I'm not willing to lose money on a show. If your market is already wonky with pricing, will you be able to buy this nice bad-ass sound system and realistically be paid what this new system is worth? Can your existing clients who could benefit from this new rig afford the increased pricing structure? Or will they continue hiring your "B" rig because that's what they can afford? Are there other shops in the area with similar gear that you can cross rent to?
Just some things to think about, from the business side of things... :)
-Ray
edit: a couple of stupid small typos.
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 05, 2016, 10:09:47 PM
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on December 06, 2016, 01:05:57 AM
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a bit here... Reading this thread through a few times, we start with you looking to expand/replace a "weird pile of firewood" as Tim so eloquently put it. Based on the way you talk and what you've said so far, your true knowledge and understanding of the workings of a sound system is spotty at best (see pages 1 - 3), you have no interest in furthering your education in the science of live sound, and to quote yourself, think "opening up the wallet and buying some better gear" will magically solve your issues. Then somehow we depart from QW Systems and arrive at line array systems, which are only another magnitude of cost greater than where we started, and you still seem to have no idea if you can even break into the regional market to take these gigs! Something's just not adding up to me...
Just as a removed observer, what would make tremendously more sense is to buy a system that you will use regularly and then rent this larger system for the few times a year you actually need it...if you ever do. If you have a friend who owns this - rent it from him! If it gets to the point where you're seeing regular, profitable business from the bigger rig, then maybe consider buying your own. Don't mean to sound blunt here, but deep pockets and shiny new gear won't solve all your problems.
OK lets see if I can straighten all of this up.
1st off.. I in noway claim to be a pro sound specialist! BUT.. I do have a drive and desire and the $$$ to do what Most cant do.. In saying that every tech in this room has diff opinions.. Except for a few..lol
I do not plan on doing A list nationals every night. But a small festival or night club with a national i want to be able to do these with headroom to spare.
I have been out of the show for 4 yrs.. took time to build my company and raise a family. And just so happen to make enough money for my glorified hobby! ::)
1st off The rig i was asking about happens to be a BAR rig that i use for well BARS.. couple of Nationals here and their have used this in a small club application.
FIREHOUSE
CHRIS YOUNG
COLT FORD
DANNY GOKEY
EASTON CORBIN
DRIFTERS
TRENT TOMLINSON
SAVING ABEL
JOE DIFFIE
SHANENDOAH
RESTLESS HEART
CHAOS BY CANDLELIGHT
NOEL HAGGARD
BARRY BROWN
COASTLINE
YOU GET THE IDEA..
For most of these i used a Qw Rig 6 qw1-,6qw215,-10qw218 and it did the job very well.. But who wants to carry those heavy things around!!
Im looking for a Rig that will do as good or better than the qw.. Im not looking to do Greensboro Colesium.. But i do wanna give at least a decent rig for a local sound co.
As for all the technical side of it.. NO Im not all that up to date on it..BUT I do know when the system is right and when its not!
I am looking into the classes that someone recomended to me today and I will do those!
Im not saying Im a know it all.. But Im no IDIOT either! Well not today anyways.. lol
Can i improve my knowledge... YES!!
As for The RCF i think this will be the way to go.. Im just gonna Buy the quanity that my buddy has and if i need bigger we can combine the systems.. This will work out best for us both!
so its looking like
16 HDL20s
and i wanna check into the double 21 subs!
I have around $175000.00 I can invest
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 06, 2016, 03:34:54 AM
And just so happen to make enough money for my glorified hobby! ::)
I have around $175000.00 I can invest
Not sure I believe all of this but whatever. Who lists a bunch of acts they have run for?
Did you read Ray's post. He wasn't trying to make fun of you, these are legitimate questions. Power, transportation, rigging etc.
So you are going to take a significant sum of money and turn it into a monument for your stupidity. Have fun with that.
What exactly do you want from this group? Emotional gratification?
You could purchase some nice point source speakers and actually improve your product while you acquire some operational skills.
Your response to Ray was completely disrespectful.
Post by: Dave Guilford on December 06, 2016, 09:04:21 AM
Not sure I believe all of this but whatever. Who lists a bunch of acts they have run for?
Did you read Ray's post. He wasn't trying to make fun of you, these are legitimate questions. Power, transportation, rigging etc.
So you are going to take a significant sum of money and turn it into a monument for your stupidity. Have fun with that.
What exactly do you want from this group? Emotional gratification?
You could purchase some nice point source speakers and actually improve your product while you acquire some operational skills.
Your response to Ray was completely disrespectful.
Wow. Wildly uncalled for. Jealous or something? People list bands they've worked with all the time. It's a resume for this type of work.
To the OP - good for you. You want to learn, you want to invest, there's no better way to do this. Don't take crap from this jackass.
I say go for the RCF rig, a bunch of subs, a box truck, and a boatload of insurance. Then you're good to go! Wish I had that kind of money laying around; I'd do the same thing!
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 06, 2016, 09:13:30 AM
OK lets see if I can straighten all of this up...... so is this what constitutes your Business Plan?
1st off.. I in noway claim to be a pro sound specialist! BUT.. I do have a drive and desire and the $$$ to do what Most cant do.. In saying that every tech in this room has diff opinions.. Except for a few..lol
I do not plan on doing A list nationals every night. But a small festival or night club with a national i want to be able to do these with headroom to spare.
I have been out of the show for 4 yrs.. took time to build my company and raise a family. And just so happen to make enough money for my glorified hobby! ::)
For most of these i used a Qw Rig 6 qw1-,6qw215,-10qw218 and it did the job very well.. But who wants to carry those heavy things around!!
Im looking for a Rig that will do as good or better than the qw.. Im not looking to do Greensboro Colesium.. But i do wanna give at least a decent rig for a local sound co.
As for all the technical side of it.. NO Im not all that up to date on it..BUT I do know when the system is right and when its not!
I am looking into the classes that someone recomended to me today and I will do those!
Im not saying Im a know it all.. But Im no IDIOT either! Well not today anyways.. lol
Can i improve my knowledge... YES!!
As for The RCF i think this will be the way to go.. Im just gonna Buy the quanity that my buddy has and if i need bigger we can combine the systems.. This will work out best for us both!
so its looking like
16 HDL20s
and i wanna check into the double 21 subs!
I have around $175000.00 I can invest
-Ray
Post by: Jonathan Betts on December 06, 2016, 10:35:26 AM
This is coming from someone who has been in your shoes.
Post by: Tim Weaver on December 06, 2016, 11:03:59 AM
Quote
1st off The rig i was asking about happens to be a BAR rig that i use for well BARS.. couple of Nationals here and their have used this in a small club application.
FIREHOUSE
CHRIS YOUNG
COLT FORD
DANNY GOKEY
EASTON CORBIN
DRIFTERS
TRENT TOMLINSON
SAVING ABEL
JOE DIFFIE
SHANENDOAH
RESTLESS HEART
CHAOS BY CANDLELIGHT
NOEL HAGGARD
BARRY BROWN
COASTLINE
YOU GET THE IDEA..
For most of these i used a Qw Rig 6 qw1-,6qw215,-10qw218 and it did the job very well.. But who wants to carry those heavy things around!!
Im looking for a Rig that will do as good or better than the qw.. Im not looking to do Greensboro Colesium.. But i do wanna give at least a decent rig for a local sound co.
I will stay out of this from now on, but please go back and read my earlier posts.
If this is a HOBBY for you, please PLEASE, don't buy a line array. Of any type at all. You will very quickly get fed up with having to do a huge amount of work just to do a simple bar show.
Line arrays don't work unless you have a big long line of them. That means putting up all 8 a side for every show to have it sound decent. That means deploying 2 lifts every show to have it sound decent. That means running a power distro every show to have it sound decent. That means a longer 3 am load out every show to have it sound decent. You get my point?
Also 99 times out of 100 a line array is the wrong system for bar work. Most bars don't have enough space in front of the stage for lifts. They also don't have the ceiling height needed to get the boxes up high.
Also, those bands you listed are not A nationals. They are nationally touring bar bands. Thats it. They will play on anything. As evidenced by them playing on your qw rig. I know, because until very recently I was the house engineer for one of those bands. I did it for 4 years and I can't even describe how many shitty, horrible, broken, shitty, poorly deployed, shitty, shitty, baby line array systems in clubs I used. All I really wanted ANYWHERE for ANY SIZE CLUB was a basic system from a recognizable name that WASN'T a line array.
Jbl srx? Yes please.
Qrx? Give em to me
Nexo Alpha? Oh God yes
D&B C4 Hell yeah
Even your qw rig as long as it is all qw and not horns from this and woofers from that.... yes.
If you truly have 175k to spend, there's ONE move I would make. Buy 8 Danley TH118's, 4 SH46's, and 2 to 4 SM80's. Buy the Danley amps that go with it, and get a used Avid SC48 and then take the 100k thats left over and hire a tech that knows wtf he's doing to work your shows.
Btw, this "bar rig" I just described would handle your coliseum just fine for most shows. In fact I have used a rig like that for county fairs with thousands in attendance.
*mic drop*
Post by: Cailen Waddell on December 06, 2016, 11:54:15 AM
The corporate market has some room but there are some hungry younger businesses that are eating that up too.
Maybe there is need I'm unaware of... that's always possible.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: John Chiara on December 06, 2016, 12:31:12 PM
I will stay out of this from now on, but please go back and read my earlier posts.
If this is a HOBBY for you, please PLEASE, don't buy a line array. Of any type at all. You will very quickly get fed up with having to do a huge amount of work just to do a simple bar show.
Line arrays don't work unless you have a big long line of them. That means putting up all 8 a side for every show to have it sound decent. That means deploying 2 lifts every show to have it sound decent. That means running a power distro every show to have it sound decent. That means a longer 3 am load out every show to have it sound decent. You get my point?
Also 99 times out of 100 a line array is the wrong system for bar work. Most bars don't have enough space in front of the stage for lifts. They also don't have the ceiling height needed to get the boxes up high.
Also, those bands you listed are not A nationals. They are nationally touring bar bands. Thats it. They will play on anything. As evidenced by them playing on your qw rig. I know, because until very recently I was the house engineer for one of those bands. I did it for 4 years and I can't even describe how many shitty, horrible, broken, shitty, poorly deployed, shitty, shitty, baby line array systems in clubs I used. All I really wanted ANYWHERE for ANY SIZE CLUB was a basic system from a recognizable name that WASN'T a line array.
Jbl srx? Yes please.
Qrx? Give em to me
Nexo Alpha? Oh God yes
D&B C4 Hell yeah
Even your qw rig as long as it is all qw and not horns from this and woofers from that.... yes.
If you truly have 175k to spend, there's ONE move I would make. Buy 8 Danley TH118's, 4 SH46's, and 2 to 4 SM80's. Buy the Danley amps that go with it, and get a used Avid SC48 and then take the 100k thats left over and hire a tech that knows wtf he's doing to work your shows.
Btw, this "bar rig" I just described would handle your coliseum just fine for most shows. In fact I have used a rig like that for county fairs with thousands in attendance.
*mic drop*
What Tim said. All the extra cost, labor, power requirements, storage and labor needed are never gonna be worth it and will very quickly wear you down. AND...it won't sound better.
Post by: Cailen Waddell on December 06, 2016, 01:43:31 PM
Also - the market here in NC has plenty of players. I would not want to try to build a business on concert sound with the competitors in this area. There are players at all levels... and ones that are a great quality/price ratio.
The corporate market has some room but there are some hungry younger businesses that are eating that up too.
Maybe there is need I'm unaware of... that's always possible.
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Also - id guess that the rig you propose could get you $1200 to $1500 around here for an afternoon load in evening band gig with lights... so that's something to think about...
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Post by: Don T. Williams on December 06, 2016, 03:41:42 PM
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 06, 2016, 06:37:18 PM
Would you recommend a fleet of Mercedes limos over Rolls Royce or what? I've ridden in Mercedes and they're DA BOMB!!!
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 06, 2016, 06:56:46 PM
Hi, everybody! I love hauling things and have always dreamed of having my own k***a** moving company, one that would blow the "usual suspects" out of the water.You need one more asterisk to spell "kangaroo." My apologies to the Australians here.
Would you recommend a fleet of Mercedes limos over Rolls Royce or what? I've ridden in Mercedes and they're DA BOMB!!!
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 06, 2016, 08:14:24 PM
You need one more asterisk to spell "kangaroo." My apologies to the Australians here.
So we can call him "Dick 'Roos"?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 06, 2016, 11:07:35 PM
Wow. Wildly uncalled for. Jealous or something? People list bands they've worked with all the time. It's a resume for this type of work.
To the OP - good for you. You want to learn, you want to invest, there's no better way to do this. Don't take crap from this jackass.
I say go for the RCF rig, a bunch of subs, a box truck, and a boatload of insurance. Then you're good to go! Wish I had that kind of money laying around; I'd do the same thing!
Nobody ever quotes who they work for around here, occasionally we might share a friends lounge level act if they have some artistic merit or it's just plain funny.
There are folks in here working for the real deal, offering advice. If your humble and kind to these guys they will tell you anything you want to know. As Tim said listing a bunch of touring lounge acts was just another nail in the coffin.
Maybe you should go into business with this guy (SP?). Then you could both stare at your useless line array that you don't know how to run and impress each other.
What you would not get is any new clients or love from the venues.
Ray probably spent an hour patiently explaining why purchasing a couple of components of a touring system makes no sense. Did you read a word of it?
Me jealous, yeah that's it. You don't do much research on who you are talking to do you?
My statement on believability is I can't imagine anyone would go out and spend almost 1/4 million dollars for something described as a hobby. You have to be sensible to make that kind of money unless you win the lottery or inherit it. Someone who earned it would not spend it that foolishly. 175k buys a vacation home in or near Camden Maine. Sorry I digressed just wanted to quantify the dollars you are tossing around.
Education assumptions, and I qualified that in my comment. I would still bet a great steak dinner that I am fairly close to the truth.
BTW Tim's comment is spot on too. We occasionally book regional touring acts into our venues. They love the SRX system, clean well kept mics and cables and a friendly, knowledgeable and helpful staff. That's how you earn business.
Post by: Luke Geis on December 07, 2016, 01:24:46 AM
1. You have a pretty large chip on your shoulder. This is not meant to be an insult, but realize that too much confidence can be a bad thing. What do I mean? You say that you can mix better than most pro engineers. This is a personal opinion and does not validate your problem. The problem is that you truly don't know how to design, implement and optimize a system. If you did, you would not be here asking us to help you design a PA system. A monkey can mix better than many pro engineers, but can that monkey design, build and optimize a multi million dollar rig that allows other monkeys to walk up and mix circles around him? I have heard many " Engineers " tell me they have golden ears and are super critical about sound, but can't tell me the phase shift of a 2nd order filter used in a crossover. If the PA isn't set up correctly, it will never be right no matter how good your ears are. Sounding good is subjective and most PA problems cannot be solved with EQ. Furthermore, many of these same individuals can't fix the most basic of PA problems. Not that you are one such individual, but to say that you can mix better than most pro's and then later say that you are not a sound specialist is not helping yourself or us to help you. You have to be more honest about where you sit in this field. The guys mixing for Black Sabbath, Tool, John Legend, Lady Gaga ETC. are all at that level for a reason, and it isn't because they have a better ear than you or I, but because they have a good ear and can design and utilize the system they are using. Personality helps too. Many engineers have a crappy attitude and the holier than thou attitude can creep up, but we all have bad days......
2. You don't have a real plan. If you are going to deal mostly with national acts, then you need to know what those acts will accept on their riders. This will tell you pretty much what you must buy. It is very hard to sell a $100,000 rig to a local band and small venues. It is very hard to accommodate the national act / corporate market and the budget class market with only one PA. The markets are too far apart to make one system work very well for both. Unless you plan on having multiple PA's, plan on not being appreciated enough by the local acts you have to cut your rate back for so they can afford your gear and also having the national acts scoff at your gear because it doesn't say Martin on the side. Come up with a solid game plan and what you intend to spend, don't shotgun it.
I think you have some setup and optimization bugs that could be holding your system back. Time / phase alignment, crossover points and even the place in which EQ is used can have a huge impact on the end result. Many of these issues cannot be worked out by ears alone. Hate to say it, but even the best ears in the world could not set crossover points, phase align the different parts of the system and EQ it to the same level of accuracy alone, that a high dollar measurement rig under the control of a competent user with average ears could. There are so many factors that contribute to the end product of sound coming out of a PA. The mic choice and technique used with it, the application of EQ, compression, gating, be it on a channel, or bus / group and then the system processor that is used, which I have found to sound as different as the name that is on the box, can all effect the end result. If you feel that you have done all you can to maximize what you have, then buying something better is the only way to advance.
Post by: Dave Guilford on December 07, 2016, 08:15:18 AM
As for "research who you're talking to"- correct. I don't need to look you up to see that you're belittling someone and making arguments for issues which aren't present. I don't care who you are- you should treat everyone with the same respect.
Maybe the OP already has a vacation home. Maybe he doesn't. It's irrelevant because we are talking about building a sound system.
Post by: Thomas Le on December 07, 2016, 09:41:07 AM
Guys. The OP said he's doing this as a hobby. No need to insert YOUR desire for a business plan , when he's already said that it's not a business.
As for "research who you're talking to"- correct. I don't need to look you up to see that you're belittling someone and making arguments for issues which aren't present. I don't care who you are- you should treat everyone with the same respect.
Maybe the OP already has a vacation home. Maybe he doesn't. It's irrelevant because we are talking about building a sound system.
Problem is that OP is under the impression that buying a line array will fix his problems. Plus, by OP treating this as some hobby but "wanting to do nationals & cover crowds of ~4000", OP is undercutting his local market, this is why production companies struggle to stay in business.
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 07, 2016, 09:45:30 AM
Guys. The OP said he's doing this as a hobby. No need to insert YOUR desire for a business plan , when he's already said that it's not a business.I agree that he used the word "hobby," but in context, he also said "glorified hobby," with the 'rolling of the eyes' face. So, that sounded tongue-in-cheek (perhaps he was thinking about the IRS rules that state if you lose money 3 years out of 5, they consider your business a "hobby" and treat it as such?).
Maybe the OP already has a vacation home. Maybe he doesn't. It's irrelevant because we are talking about building a sound system.
The issue is that he has come here, looking for advice on where to go with his system - well, first he wanted to know how to make it all work together better, with an insinuation that he could spend up to $20,000 on it-- and that throwing money at his problem was the best way to solve it. Then, now we're looking at he suddenly has a $175,000 budget to spend on this new system upgrade. And you're right- if he just wants to buy a big pile of gear, then WAY TO GO, let's DO THIS! But just about EVERYTHING he had posted up until the "glorified hobby" and rolling eyes made it sound like he was in business to make money, and the responses were phrased accordingly.
So, Dave, please don't berate people for answering the questions posed/situation given, based on the information currently at hand, when the situation has now changed and more information has been provided. That's just not fair.
To the OP: If this is truly a glorified hobby, and you're just in this to spend a bunch of money, and have a kick-ass personal stereo system, and work some shows you like, and potentially not care about the money you're making or if you're making a profit, please be upfront and honest about that. That's where the terms "bottom-feeder" and "ankle-biter" come from- where you're not charging enough to be a legitimate business, AND you don't care about (slash don't need to charge enough money) ever making a profit/decent living. That both takes money from the legitimate businesses who DO need to make a profit/support a family/etc, and damages your area market for sound in the future. "Why, legitimate company, why should I pay you all of your fee, when there's this other dude with apparently similar equipment for 60% less?
I'll be candid: If that's your MO, the answers and advice you get on here will change, but at least you're being upfront and honest about it.
However, if I'm wrong, chime in and let us know! :) Let's stop getting details one by one, but rather post a nice, clear, concise picture of what you want to do. If you want to make this a viable business, let us hash out the numbers to see if we can make sense of everything, and ensure you get what you need. It would suck for you to buy a bunch of gear, and then discover that one salient detail was overlooked, and no one wants your rig. And you've spend a wad of cash...
-Ray
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 07, 2016, 11:05:11 AM
Jack, I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm trying to save your marriage. Seriously. Unless you've been picking winner lotto numbers consistently I think spending $175k in a highly competitive market without a solid business plan is financial suicide. You'll be out of operating capital long before you achieve any market penetration. Re-read Ray's post, he's 100% spot on.
Tim W sums it up for the type of work you're most likely to do with the skill set you currently possess and with the gear your currently own. I get that you want to do bigger gigs (been there, done that, pawned the t-shirt) but you need to look at what it *really* costs to play a the "next level".
I've worked for some very nice folks, some guys that were technically or artistically gifted, but only a couple that were also businessmen. Those 2 are the ones still doing this as system suppliers, the others are pretty much out of the gear biz. Even if this venture isn't meant to put your kids through college or fund your retirement I think you need to operate as a business for the reasons mentioned in Ray's follow up.
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 07, 2016, 11:34:22 PM
. the 5 Finger Death Punch®...
I like that band
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 07, 2016, 11:43:08 PM
As for "research who you're talking to"- correct. I don't need to look you up to see that you're belittling someone and making arguments for issues which aren't present. I don't care who you are- you should treat everyone with the same respect.
You missed my whole point. I didn't mean "who I am" in regard to the audio business. You made a comment ascribing my motive to jealousy. My statement was a defense that I would not be stupid enough to make such an ill thought out venture. Hardly jealous, I want to prevent the guy from wasting his money.
As also pointed out there are many inconsistencies in his story that are hard to attribute to someone capable of putting together that kind of money.
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 07, 2016, 11:46:10 PM
I would not hire someone who presents themselves in a poor manner in those aspects.
Just saying.
(Not you, Scott, don't worry! :) )
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 07, 2016, 11:53:59 PM
As a business professional, I pride myself on proper grammar, spelling and punctuation, which includes appropriate capitalization.
I would not hire someone who presents themselves in a poor manner in those aspects.
Just saying.
(Not you, Scott, don't worry! :) )
I do also, and not an excuse but mobile devices make it easy to get sloppy. I try and edit my posts when I get in front of a real computer. Especially if the tread gets traction.
It would be sad if the OP was simply fantasizing as the amount of physical work and emotional energy expended on this thread is considerable.
Your post gets an A++
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 08, 2016, 02:09:36 AM
It would be sad if the OP was simply fantasizing as the amount of physical work and emotional energy expended on this thread is considerable.
Your post gets an A++
His mother and I are soooo proud of him! 8)
You're spot on that it takes a fair bit of effort to write well even if one writes a lot. For me it's trying to get the well-formed concept "in my head" translated into actual words that readers will understand; some things translate easily and others defy my attempts to communicate.
Responses like Ray's go deeper than good grammar, correct spelling and proper punctuation - those responses are voices of experience. Ray revealed a great of proprietary knowledge (he's in advanced studies at Ye Olde Skool of Harde Knox®), the things you learn by being there, doing that and surviving the shit storm that rains from time to time. Most of the time that's wisdom you can't buy or rent and here it's available for free.
I wish Jack well, whatever his motivation or intent. He'll either figure it out and get it together or he'll flame out in a moment of obscure mediocrity. If the latter results in his divorce I can only say "I warned you about that in Dec 2016."
Post by: Ed Hall on December 08, 2016, 08:32:27 AM
As a business professional, I pride myself on proper grammar, spelling and punctuation, which includes appropriate capitalization.
+1
This is getting so rare that it's darn near a superpower!
I want to thank all the people here that have so selflessly shared their knowledge and experience here. I don't post a lot, but I'm learning a great deal; not just the technical side but the business side as well. Threads like this have prevented me from buying many cool widgets that didn't make sense when looking beyond the "Wow Factor".
Thanks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 08, 2016, 05:46:11 PM
It would be sad if the OP was simply fantasizing as the amount of physical work and emotional energy expended on this thread is considerable.
Very true. The thought of trolling has crossed my mind on this one...or maybe I've just been watching too much of the latest season of South Park...
But in reality, some people buy vacation houses, some people buy yachts, others buy collector cars. If Jack wants to buy a big pile of speakers to worship in his house/garage/shop and brag to the unimpressed internet and community of professionals that he owns a line array, I guess more power to him? Of course these speakers are a depreciating asset and thus a tremendously poor investment without a viable business plan to put them to work, but (to show how wacky this thread has become) Jack already knows that...
But who has the money for all that gear with no promise of work..
Well, apparently you do!
Post by: Brandon Scopel on December 08, 2016, 06:28:35 PM
I'm a part of the everything stage, sound, and lighting for sale or swap facebook group and someone put up an assortment of 20 verrsarray 112 for $4k.
Jack was one of the first to comment on purchasing it. The seller now says that he is holding it for someone when someone inquires about availability.
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Post by: Ray Aberle on December 08, 2016, 06:54:14 PM
-Ray
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 08, 2016, 06:59:07 PM
If he is trolling, he's doing it on facebook as well.
I don't think he's trolling either. I just think he's sky-high with a case of gear acquisition syndrome and isn't willing to be honest with himself (or us) about what his needs truly are, or in this case, aren't.
Post by: Andrew Henderson on December 08, 2016, 07:15:25 PM
I just think he's sky-high with a case of gear acquisition syndrome and isn't willing to be honest with himself (or us) about what his needs truly are, or in this case, aren't.I've been there before!
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 08, 2016, 07:18:13 PM
I've been there before!
Oh, I think we all have!
Post by: Tim Weaver on December 08, 2016, 07:52:19 PM
Well, that's a good amount of speakers for $4,000. Unless they're grey market, illegal Chinese imported clones, or just plain stolen...
-Ray
Or all the ribbons are blown and 4k is all its worth!
Post by: Brandon Scopel on December 08, 2016, 08:41:21 PM
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Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 09, 2016, 03:48:04 AM
Claims to have 13 working speakers, 5 missing ribbons completely, and the rest have blown ribbons......
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That's a far cry from 175k. Heck of a good deal if you can put them to use. Fix them and get acquire amplification and processing is going to run 30k (repairs, amps, lifts and hardware)
If I were trying to run these I would look for amps like the QSC GX7 that are affordable and decent of sufficient quantity to have control over every box. That would at least give you a chance of tuning/taming the system.
Purchase SMAART and SMAART school and then go to work in a warehouse. That would be a great learning experience.
Post by: Tim Weaver on December 09, 2016, 02:53:12 PM
Then watch your bank account drain as you slowly realize that no touring band will accept this system. So you can't provide for county fairs or anything like that and forget doing any kind of real show in a real venue. What you have is a 60k bar rig that is a huuuuge pain in the ass to load in and load out every night to make 800 dollars.
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 09, 2016, 03:04:46 PM
Don't foget he still needs subs. There's another 20-30k.
Then watch your bank account drain as you slowly realize that no touring band will accept this system. So you can't provide for county fairs or anything like that and forget doing any kind of real show in a real venue. What you have is a 60k bar rig that is a huuuuge pain in the ass to load in and load out every night to make 800 dollars.
WOO HOO! And a kick-ass personal stereo! Haha.
Oh well. I do notice the OP hasn't been back for a few days, so I presume he either got discouraged about this whole project, or went off to find people who will tell him what a shrewd purchase he's making.
-Ray
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 09, 2016, 04:00:54 PM
Oh well. I do notice the OP hasn't been back for a few days, so I presume he either got discouraged about this whole project, or went off to find people who will tell him what a shrewd purchase he's making.
Based on the way he talks, I'd presume the latter...
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on December 09, 2016, 10:26:40 PM
Not sure I believe all of this but whatever. Who lists a bunch of acts they have run for?
Did you read Ray's post. He wasn't trying to make fun of you, these are legitimate questions. Power, transportation, rigging etc.
So you are going to take a significant sum of money and turn it into a monument for your stupidity. Have fun with that.
What exactly do you want from this group? Emotional gratification?
No one asked you to believe it.. but its gonna happen..
emotional gratification? NO But I can and will learn all i can with this craft..
You could purchase some nice point source speakers and actually improve your product while you acquire some operational skills.
Your response to Ray was completely disrespectful.
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on December 09, 2016, 10:28:12 PM
Wow. Wildly uncalled for. Jealous or something? People list bands they've worked with all the time. It's a resume for this type of work.
To the OP - good for you. You want to learn, you want to invest, there's no better way to do this. Don't take crap from this jackass.
I say go for the RCF rig, a bunch of subs, a box truck, and a boatload of insurance. Then you're good to go! Wish I had that kind of money laying around; I'd do the same thing!
Thank you! I do own A trucking company as well... So transportation is no problem!! ;D
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on December 09, 2016, 10:39:50 PM
If he is trolling, he's doing it on facebook as well.
I'm a part of the everything stage, sound, and lighting for sale or swap facebook group and someone put up an assortment of 20 verrsarray 112 for $4k.
Jack was one of the first to comment on purchasing it. The seller now says that he is holding it for someone when someone inquires about availability.
Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
Yes I am the one Thats gonna buy the 112 versarrays Figure that a $4000 Gamble is worth it..
leaving Nc wed to Go get them.. I figure thats a Good starting point.. If all works that he says does i think i can get this system up for little $$
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on December 09, 2016, 11:04:55 PM
BUT>>>>> a few of you take alot of stuff out of contex. Will i ever own a $175000 rig... Prob not.. But I could buy it If i wanted to.. Guess i was just flexing..
My bread and butter is a fleet of semi trucks and we haul oversize loads... Pays Dang good!!
I have been in music for 23 yrs.. Yes i do have a good ear for mixing.. Now i know that i could never design a system and put it into production and sell it at a pro level.. Well leave that to Clair,Jbl,SO on and so on...
I have worked with a few acts and loved it.. Been complemented a few times as well..
As i lear more about this craft i may just one day decide to throw the chips at it and get a REAL rig.. Not looking for it.. but maybe...
I have found some versarrays at a good deal i think.. Atleast it would be a good starting point since i Already have all the amps from my current rig.
Subs will have to be bought and with that set up Im thinking Maybe 10 should do just fine.. That would leave me enough to do some aux fed subs.. I Think Peavey has a 3-1 set up for the 112s... Ill have to research more..
Im sorry if i offended anyone.
My plan is simple.. I have transportation,Lighting(boy has that been a learning curve), And a few good guys to help me move some gear..
If i make a lil money great.. if not so be it.. Im 38 yrs old and Its just a passion!!
I do like some of the feedback i have seen and the ones i dont understand I am trying to research and learn more..
Some one told me about the online classes and i have looked into them and Im gonna take them..
From what i have seen...This is a costly buiss ,hobby, or what ever..
For all of the full timers and co owners i applaud you and wish you all well..
so now down to the real deal...
With a 8 Hang per side Versarray when i use this in a club and do A center cluster of subs couldnt i put the 2 remaining vrays, Could I set those atop the center cluster of subs to fill out the center of the room? How would i have to set up Vsx26? Im betting the subs will have to be delayed if they are infront of the 8 hang per side?
And should i delay the whole system to allow for stage noise from the loudest instrument on stage(drums) ?
Also.. Would you guys use the SMART Program that comes with presonus software or just run the pink noise from the vsx 26s? And in using 2 vsx 26s do i run pink noise 2 times or just copy from one vsx to the other.. OR put a y cable on RTA and do the at same time?
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 09, 2016, 11:19:48 PM
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 10, 2016, 12:14:20 AM
You really need some more experience before you go to "the next level."
Ok guys I did not mean to sound like a jerk.. Im not trolling or just trying to get a rise out of you guys..Nope, I wouldn't say that. We've been answering you like you posted-- I would hesitate to say anything is out of context.
BUT>>>>> a few of you take alot of stuff out of context.
Will i ever own a $175000 rig... Prob not.. But I could buy it If i wanted to.. Guess i was just flexing..........but you said you were going to invest $175K in this........ so you're changing the story on us.
My bread and butter is a fleet of semi trucks and we haul oversize loads... Pays Dang good!!It's good that you have a day job / regular income coming in to ensure your bills are paid.
I have been in music for 23 yrs.. Yes i do have a good ear for mixing.. Now i know that i could never design a system and put it into production and sell it at a pro level.. Well leave that to Clair,Jbl,SO on and so on...
I have worked with a few acts and loved it.. Been complemented a few times as well..So do you have any interest in, you know, the business plan that's been mentioned a few times??
As i lear more about this craft i may just one day decide to throw the chips at it and get a REAL rig.. Not looking for it.. but maybe...
I have found some versarrays at a good deal i think.. Atleast it would be a good starting point since i Already have all the amps from my current rig.So these fit into your business plan?
Subs will have to be bought and with that set up Im thinking Maybe 10 should do just fine.. That would leave me enough to do some aux fed subs.. I Think Peavey has a 3-1 set up for the 112s... Ill have to research more..Have you used aux fed subs in the past? Why do you think you need to use them now?
My plan is simple.. I have transportation,Lighting(boy has that been a learning curve), And a few good guys to help me move some gear..Sursly, your plan should not be this simple. Not calling you dumb, just that there needs to be a LOT more thought put into this...
If i make a lil money great.. if not so be it.. Im 38 yrs old and Its just a passion!!
What is this for you? A business? Or a hobby?!?
From what i have seen...This is a costly buiss ,hobby, or what ever..
With a 8 Hang per side Versarray when i use this in a club and do A center cluster of subs couldnt i put the 2 remaining vrays, Could I set those atop the center cluster of subs to fill out the center of the room? How would i have to set up Vsx26? Im betting the subs will have to be delayed if they are infront of the 8 hang per side?If you're asking these kinds of questions, time to hit the books again before rolling out with a big rig.
And should i delay the whole system to allow for stage noise from the loudest instrument on stage(drums) ?
Also.. Would you guys use the SMART Program that comes with presonus software or just run the pink noise from the vsx 26s? And in using 2 vsx 26s do i run pink noise 2 times or just copy from one vsx to the other.. OR put a y cable on RTA and do the at same time?
Just saying.
-Ray
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on December 10, 2016, 12:32:30 AM
I said the 175000 was just flexing...hahah
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 10, 2016, 07:43:03 AM
I said the 175000 was just flexing...hahahJust NOW you did (what exactly is "flexing" ?) --- but back here (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,161269.msg1486516.html#msg1486516) you indicated that you indeed had a full $175,000 to invest in this project.
Getting details out of you is like pulling teeth, dude, and if you want some real, quality advice, you need to stop changing your damn story. People have spent some good time trying to help steer you in a good direction-- and you've changed your tune at LEAST twice now!
LOL... Boy oh boy...I'm going to stop giving input, now, because this is clearly just a game for you, and you think it's all a big joke.
-Ray
Post by: Thomas Le on December 10, 2016, 10:40:12 AM
Post by: g'bye, Dick Rees on December 10, 2016, 11:51:16 AM
I put a bypass on Sp4 internal gorns...
I think I see the problem...
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 10, 2016, 02:47:37 PM
I think I see the problem...
You, sir, have a keen eye.
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 10, 2016, 03:07:09 PM
Been complemented a few times as well..
So Gorn complements him well, maybe? How do you decide what fictional sci-fi monster complements you best?
Post by: Luke Geis on December 10, 2016, 04:54:26 PM
After reading through this again and seeing your responses to others input, it is clear that you think this is a simple game and that throwing speakers in the air will get you from point A-B. Doing any type of event where you intend to put hundreds of pounds of stuff in the air over peoples heads requires first of all insurance, next a little bit more knowledge other than hooking a speaker up and a hell of a lot more than an ear that you think is better than most pro's. There is a union of riggers who's job is to do what you're looking into doing. There is a reason for that. You can kill people if you do not do it right. Beyond that you have completely ignored others input on realistic goals and outcomes.
You now have a PA that is costly to deploy because you will need a truck to deliver it. I used to be a Class A licensed truck driver and I know without doubt that trucking is not a cheap avenue to run. Second is the labor. Setting up any array that goes in the air requires at least two people and furthermore one must have at least some rigging knowledge. This type of guy will cost more to have around. Beyond that there is planning, designing the PA and fulfilling all the goals. This is learned through years of work and practice.
I highly suggest you read up on line array's and how they work, their limitations and the math associated with them. A small venue does not need an 8 box per side hang. Going with a smaller array that is ground stacked basically makes for a very expensive rig that is not a line array and yet not a point source array either. The planning for the systems deployment takes input, time and a decent knowledge of the system to properly set it up and utilize it as intended. You go through a walk-through after talking with the client, you source power to run the gear and then comes game day. You better know what you're up against.
A rig like this will get you a bit of business, but what usually happens is that the new guy comes in with their super rig, and because they know they aren't as up to par as the pro's are, they undercut a little in order to ensure business. This in turn hurts the industry as a whole because the sloppy work ( due to the learning curve ) leaves the client thinking that even a little more money may not have changed the game. They then build a very high expectation of what they get for the money, but that lower rate is now their baseline. It only takes a client a couple bad shows for them to start questioning why they pay so much for a job they aren't truly happy with. This drives the value of the work down. They go to a different vendor who costs more ( because they are worth more ) and now that vendor has to convince the client they are worth it. This is the ankle bitter scenario that was mentioned. If you're not a professional, don't try and take food off the plate. You can and will take value away from this industry if you aren't properly prepared to handle this rig.
You have a PA that NO National act would say yes to if they were given the choice. It is not on a rider from any reputable act. Secondly you now have a PA that should cost about $75 - $100 per speaker including the amplifiers to rent. An 8 box per side rig with subs should cost at a minimum $2,500 and closer to $3,000 just for the speaker and rigging rental. We haven't even touched the mixer, mic's and labor costs. A proper day rate for this type of work to charge a client is around $400 per person per day! You are now easily going to have a total cost that is around $4,000 or more! This is assuming you don't have to rent power and power distribution. What do you value your trucking rate to be? Most delivery charges are around $150 for local stuff. Now try and sell that to a club who has a local band playing or to simply a local band. Even when you legitimize your sound company more, you will not be the first call made when a PA is needed for a national level act. It doesn't meet any rider requirements. Basically you have a very expensive PA that you probably won't be able to charge enough to justify ownership of. You could make more money off of a Behringer mixer and a quad of Mackie SRM speakers.
Post by: Tim Weaver on December 10, 2016, 08:22:12 PM
Holmes got his mind made up and none of use tin-eared pros are gonna change it.
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on December 10, 2016, 08:58:11 PM
No im not gonna buy a 175000 rig and undercut everyone.. But i do think the versarray would be a great system to learn on. But you guys act like that im just a damn idiot and that i dont have a clue what im trying to do.. Am i a pro...NOPE.. Do i hope to be one day...MAYBE.. But everyone is going to line arrays..
Now Im not so stupid that I would fly this without some proper training.. As for power distros yes i have 2.. Both are 3 phase with camlock and twist lock hubbell L5-30R and L14-30r Type Outlets..
As a matter of fact I have one for sale if anyone would like a great Distro.
In my market im targeting a much how would i say this... cheaper market.. festivals and clubs in this area will just not pay hardly anything.. But its fun and i have a day job!..
as far as listening to the BIG full timers i read absolutley everything you post!
From what ive seen everyone here is worried about how much money im gonna spend or weather or not its gonna be a "KICK ASS HOME STEREO" smh..
I assure you that I already have a great home stereo.. lol
Foe those who think they are wasting your time... well just dont post...
for those with some info and real world use of the Rig im buying please feel free to tell me the good and bad...
again.. sorry if most think im trolling or wasting time...
Thanks.. Jack
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 10, 2016, 09:10:49 PM
Once again, though, as long as you keep CHANGING YOUR STORY ON US, you'll never get any useful information. Just saying.
... It will be..... "interesting" to see you deploy (your vision of) a line array in a club.
Let us know when your divorce comes through!
-Ray
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 10, 2016, 10:04:47 PM
But everyone is going to line arrays..
No, not really. I'm not going to open the debate about line arrays versus point sources, but just to show you what's possible without a line array, I just got home from playing a sound job for a local municipality - crowd of about 1000 - outdoors - no line array! How is this possible you might ask? Well, the answers are already given in this thread. And even more unbelievable - I can (and did) play the job solo. I charged fair market price and I made money. My client (who is a multiple year repeat) is happy and they/I received numerous compliments about the sound quality. What more could you possibly want? Had I only owned a line array, I wouldn't have booked the job to begin with because I would have lost money playing it. This is where that whole business plan we keep bringing up comes in... Know your market and know the capabilities/limits of your system!
But i do think the versarray would be a great system to learn on.
This might sound surprising - clients typically don't like you conducting "experiments" during their annual gala/party/benefit concert/etc.
Post by: Jack Donald Wooten on December 10, 2016, 10:26:12 PM
No, not really. I'm not going to open the debate about line arrays versus point sources, but just to show you what's possible without a line array, I just got home from playing a sound job for a local municipality - crowd of about 1000 - outdoors - no line array! How is this possible you might ask? Well, the answers are already given in this thread. And even more unbelievable - I can (and did) play the job solo. I charged fair market price and I made money. My client (who is a multiple year repeat) is happy and they/I received numerous compliments about the sound quality. What more could you possibly want? Had I only owned a line array, I wouldn't have booked the job to begin with because I would have lost money playing it. This is where that whole business plan we keep bringing up comes in... Know your market and know the capabilities/limits of your system!
This might sound surprising - clients typically don't like you conducting "experiments" during their annual gala/party/benefit concert/etc.
YEAH I can understand what you are saying.. But dosent it make more since to have it?
First off its not gonna matter what i say here... So why keep trying..
Im just gonna do me and who knows.. May just do something with my line array and my pile of weird fire wood..
Good day..
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 10, 2016, 10:36:12 PM
YEAH I can understand what you are saying.. But dosent it make more since to have it?Please define:
First off its not gonna matter what i say here... So why keep trying..
Im just gonna do me and who knows.. May just do something with my line array and my pile of weird fire wood..
Good day..
"dosent"
I'm not familiar with that word, but I did go to public schools.
And... " gonna do me" ?!? What are you trying to say there?
k. thanks.
Post by: Jeff Lelko on December 10, 2016, 10:37:05 PM
But dosent it make more since to have it?
No, it makes more sense to have the right tool for the job, and you need to know what that job is first (hence market study and business plan). The wrong piece of gear at the right price is still the wrong piece of gear!
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 10, 2016, 10:43:16 PM
YEAH I can understand what you are saying.. But dosent it make more since to have it?If you are meaning "Doesn't it make more sense to have a line array", then the answer would be (at least in my opinion) that in many cases a line is NOT be best solution.
The interactions that occur and the varying sound at different seats would be the main reasons.
And if you are talking outdoors, when the wind starts to blow, the different elements in the line array will have different temp gradients, so it will seem to "blow around" much more than a single source of sound would.
Post by: Ray Aberle on December 10, 2016, 10:47:12 PM
First off its not gonna matter what i say here... So why keep trying..Actually, if you were willing to listen to the advice provided, life could be a lot better. But, when you continue your path of destruction and don't believe anyone can help you, then you are right; nothing you say matters.
Im just gonna do me and who knows.. May just do something with my line array and my pile of weird fire wood..
If you REALLY want some useful advice........................................ here's what you should do:
(New Post)
Hi, my name is Jack. I have (INSERT PILE OF GEAR HERE) this system that I've been using pretty successfully over the past few years. Now, I am ready to grow my business, and would like some advice as to how I can best leverage my money.
I have BUDGET, realistic, please!, to spend over the next (time). I found a source to get 20 Peavey Versarray speakers- but some are blown. Is this a good purchase, given the money I will have to spend to get them functional again?
Beyond that, here's what I see for a need in my community:
- No one is really serving the $500-$1,500 market
- I could get this rig, and provide a great solution for this market
- The club rigs that are in my area are really below standard
What else do I need to purchase to ensure that I can make money with this system?
Now, with this type of straight-forward post, you might actually get replies that will help you!
-Ray
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 10, 2016, 11:05:20 PM
YEAH I can understand what you are saying.. But dosent it make more since to have it?
First off its not gonna matter what i say here... So why keep trying..
Im just gonna do me and who knows.. May just do something with my line array and my pile of weird fire wood..
Good day..
So long as you are spending your money with the knowledge that it's really tuition at Yee Olde Skool of Harde Knox® and don't inflict the sonic results on clients until you get this thing together and understand how/why it works/doesn't work, go right ahead. If you actively pursue this as a leaning experience you're gonna learn far more than you can imagine - think Alice and the rabbit hole.
I had a long, long reply earlier that my browser ate. In it I got into the general things I learned about the VR112. If you genuinely commit to making this "weird firewood" work well, it will be more expensive than you're probably estimating. You can also make it just 'work' for a lot less. Right now replacing ribbons and probably some 12" are on your agenda. IIRC these could also be run passive, if so you will be likely replacing crossovers, too, unless you're bi-amping the rig (which is really, really part of what the VR112 needs.
The best news for you is that there is probably someone left at Peavey who can help.
You've got a significant project, Jack. Remember, don't let this thing out in the wild until everything is working correctly and you know what you're doing with it. Seriously. Oh, you'll need subs. The VR218 was a pretty impressive sub for the money, 9 years ago. It's still pretty decent ;)
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
Post by: Scott Holtzman on December 11, 2016, 12:19:17 AM
YEAH I can understand what you are saying.. But dosent it make more since to have it?
First off its not gonna matter what i say here... So why keep trying..
Im just gonna do me and who knows.. May just do something with my line array and my pile of weird fire wood..
Good day..
If you really want to participate, slow down, use complete sentences and real words and explain just how exactly you intend to run these boxes and what help we can provide.
The bits have already been given to you:
1 - Replace bad drivers
2 - Setup in bi-amp
3 - Make you cables up
4 - Purchase enough amplification to granularly control the array
5 - Processing if your amps don't have DSP
6 - Construct dolly boards and other transport items
7 - Maybe a set of covers
Now you have the system working. You have been asked point blank about flying this beast in the air. Most bars don't have any rigging and very few venues are going to let you bring it two large crank lifts and truss. Do you intend to ground stack them?
If you do then you have gone backwards from where you are today from a quality perspective.
This is the point, if you ask for advice we could give you something sound.
For what all the above is going to cost you could buy an incredible system that is easy for one guy to transport and deploy and destroy your competitors that are bringing KW, PRX etc. into these venues.
Danley, Fulcrum, Vue, JTR, Meyer and D&B just to name a few have some really good point source boxes.
Did you buy the Peavey rig? Did it include flyware? If I were you I would fix it all up, get some Peavey IPR2's with DSP, make up some cables and sell it as a complete system. Someone else with dreams of a line array will buy it from you and with that profit go out and purchase a great point source system that really differentiates you in the market.
Post by: eric lenasbunt on December 11, 2016, 06:50:16 PM
I'm going to try to give the OP some perspective, even though it's probably too late and this thread should just be locked.
You say you are in the trucking business and ship oversized loads and the like. I want to put your question and this thread into perspective using your business. This is an attempt to help you understand how some of us reacted.
Example:
Hey fellow truckers,
I have been pulling trailers around town for folks and making dump runs (sometimes for big construction companies you may have heard of ;)
Until now I have had good success with my Ford F-150, but now I'm finding I could use a little more tow power, as sometimes it's just not enough truck for the load. I'm wondering if I should replace my shocks, but that seems very expensive. After all this is a hobby and I don't care to charge or make money doing this. There are a lot of truckers in my area trying to make a living. But that's cool cause I made a ton of money in the live sound business, so I don't care if I ever make my mileage money back, it's just a hobby. I just enjoy driving.
So could you guys tell me what I need to do with my F150 to start hauling 53' trailers across country? I'm a good driver.
Post by: Luke Geis on December 12, 2016, 03:31:28 AM
Your emo is showing to be shoot first, ask questions later. You went and bought an LA rig under the pre-conceived notion that it is better than a conventional PS rig. To boot, you not only bought one that is made by a consumer market vendor, but you also think that a highly technical PA that your not 100% sure how to hang is a great learning tool. Line array type systems are marketed towards the pro level user, not the beginner. There is a reason you don't see LA systems lined up in Guitar Center; they cost too much and nobody in the band knows how to use it.
Your story is looking like this: Hi, I have a bit of experience doing sound as a hobby; I'm better at it than most pro's. So I want to beef up my rig with this insane amount of cash over here, but should I get This, or should I get That? Oh, but I bought That already, soooooo This is not an option anymore..... It's cool, right, cause it is a great PA to learn on right? Oh well, it seemed like a good idea at the time, I'm just going to use clients as guinea pigs until I figure it out.
A quick and rough list of pro's and con's to a line array:
Pro's---------------------------
1. If properly deployed, can have even, smooth coverage over the desired listening area.
2. If long enough, it can have enough directional control over enough frequencies over distance and beat the inverse square law.
3. looks absolutely killer to see a huge PA for any event; except weddings where the coordinator doesn't want to see anything, including you.......
Con's-----------------------------------------
1. Highly expensive and has a large user learning curve to properly deploy and operate.
2. If not properly deployed and operated, it will sound like crap and you can't just walk up and move it till it's right.
3. Requires more work and space than a PS rig with 0 insurance that it will in fact outperform a PS rig.
A line array must be very long in order for it to function as a line array. The line must be 4x longer than the lowest note of interest in order to have directional control. That means if a 200hz signal is roughly 5' in length, then the array length must be 20' in order for the array to have enough directional control over anything 200hz and above. Anything below 200hz will lose directional control and that signal will decay over distance as the inverse square law dictates. So the Rig you have is 8 boxes per side I believe you said? That means the array length you have will be roughly 8-9'. That array length will only have directional control of frequencies about 500hz and above. Anything below 500hz will decay as per the inverse square law. This could mean that over a long distance, there could be an audible difference in frequency response that may not be desired. If you only ran 4 boxes per side ( which is the minimum that is considered acceptable ), you would only have directional control of frequencies 1,000hz and above. Any less directional control and there would be no point in having an LA system at all.
Line arrays are particular to setup and box to box angles in order to function properly. Function is the key word here. A line array that does not function properly is one that has uneven coverage and puts sound where you don't want it. So if you get 1 box angle wrong, all the rest will be off as well, and the LA won't provide coverage where and how you want it. This means you need to be good at running the prediction software ( if the speaker has that kind of support ) and correlating that data into real world use. Doing it right to begin with is the key though. If the prediction data is wrong and you also deploy the rig wrong, then how will you know where to make the appropriate changes? You have to know the system pretty good to be able to look at prediction data and know what you need to do to deploy the PA in such a way that it follows that prediction ( even if it means altering angles etc. ). You also have to know how to run measurement software really well in order to confirm results and acquire data to then be used to further enhance the designing and deployment process. The big burn is that you have to be really good with the measuring process first, before you can ever truly utilize an LA rig to its full potential.
There are granular steps to being a systems operator and audio technician who is in charge of setting up multi million dollar PA rigs. There is a reason that crappy, cheap LA rigs sound crappy and perform like crap too. They are acquired by those who know not what they do and those who should not be doing it. There is also a reason why those who say they are super critical about sound and can mix circles around any monkey are not always the one in front of the million dollar PA. They either aren't that good, don't know enough about sound to be employable and or have a house, a wife and kids, and can't be on the road for 300 days a year. And remember this:
Sound engineers and " Their sound " are like a man and his farts; They all love the smell of their own brand.......
Post by: Ivan Beaver on December 12, 2016, 07:37:45 AM
As many already know-I disagree with those statements, and it has been proven time and time again.
A quick and rough list of pro's and con's to a line array:
Pro's---------------------------
1. If properly deployed, can have even, smooth coverage over the desired listening area.
2. If long enough, it can have enough directional control over enough frequencies over distance and beat the inverse square law.
1: In many cases a proper "1 source" system will provide a more even freq response across a given area.
Assuming you are talking about the ratio of the freq response from the front to the rear, and having the same sound without hotspots
Yes there are a number "it depends".
2: If the "beats inverse square law" actually happened, then how come demos and installs in large spaces yield better results when using a proper "1 source" system?
In reality the line array starts to fall apart over distance-NOT hold together as marketing would like for you to believe.
And especially when the wind starts to blow. Because of all the different sources, the temp gradients cause the phase to change from cabinet to cabinet, causing the signal level to drop and appear to "blow around".
And you cannot use the idea of "adjusting the angles of the cabinets and shading levels in the same context of inverse square law.
The idea of lower drop over distance of inverse square ONLY applies when all the elements are facing the same direction and getting the same signal.
As soon as you change either one of those, the whole idea of "coupling" goes out the window.
You can't have both-at least at the same time.
It is a HUGE misconception that a "1 source" box will not have coverage because it obeys inverse square law dropoff (6dB/doubling of distance).
That is true if you are looking at the on axis coverage of the cabinet.
But when you put it in the air (in the same place as hanging a line array), the closer people will be off axis, so the level will be lower for them (than at the same distance on axis)-while the far people will be on axis and maintain the same level.
So the front to back level can actually be THE SAME if the mounting height is decent and the proper cabinet is chosen.
There is a big difference between reality and "pretty marketing drawings".
Post by: Tom Roche on December 12, 2016, 01:51:05 PM
When I considered the price & performance of the Peavey system and compared it to a QSC HPR system (pair of 153 and 18 subs), it was a helluva lot more money for NOT a great deal more performance. Yes, it was noticeable, but not for 10x the cost. If I were in the market for something along these lines, I'd look at Danley or similar. Save a lot of money, easier transport and deployment, and likely much better sound.
Post by: Luke Geis on December 12, 2016, 05:08:58 PM
I am in the camp of less is more. If I can do a show with 2 speakers and provide a better service than the guy bringing in 6 speakers, I am a happy camper. The size of a PA is not an indicator of ability, output and quality of sound; it is more an indicator of the mentality that the owner carries with it. A single source is ideal if you want sonic quality to be the leading factor in your sound.
Post by: Tim McCulloch on December 12, 2016, 05:30:47 PM
To be more upfront, I am not a fan of LA systems and too also believe they cannot and do not stand up to the hype. However, they are a tool that when used properly, can be very good at what it does do. The problem is that the cost associated with getting a truly capable LA system and having the resources and help needed to properly deploy one is challenging. I have set a few up and I have seen and heard many more. I have never heard one that has impressed me so much that I felt I needed one.
I am in the camp of less is more. If I can do a show with 2 speakers and provide a better service than the guy bringing in 6 speakers, I am a happy camper. The size of a PA is not an indicator of ability, output and quality of sound; it is more an indicator of the mentality that the owner carries with it. A single source is ideal if you want sonic quality to be the leading factor in your sound.
If you can find and keep a market segment on quality-based clients it's a great and lovely thing. There's a lot more than speakers that go into that equation.
While I like less-is-more, my clients like to pay me for bringing what they think they need/want. For some it can be L-I-M, others want suspended bananas. We try to give our clients multiple opportunities to give us money but right now they prefer bananas about 70/30.
The timing question is *when* will the pendulum swing back? DSL thinks "now is good" and Tom is designing stuff that uses a whole bunch of components that work as a single source; it's brilliant but the bulk of the live, portable market isn't there yet. The really big players in live audio either roll their own (Clair) or pick top-end systems from the big boy names (and some shops now field 3 or more brands) to meet the preferences of the BEs/SEs who specify/design touring systems for their artist. Ultimately, when the shift happens in live, portable use it will be the accountants that instigate the change. The Prism® style systems got the boot in favor of line arrays due to size - transportation, sight lines, etc. The same thing could happen to line arrays.
IMHO it will take a couple of major manufacturers to bring competing products to the table before the live portable market will take notice.