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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Scott Gentry on August 07, 2017, 01:25:10 AM
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Posted on this earlier, but changing directions. After some reflections on where and how I use my system I'm requesting some help from those who have heard and used better equipment than I. I have a good mixer and driverack VENU360, and good signal equipment feeding the mixer. From there I've been running 2dxr12's and 2prx718xlf's. about 70% use is playing pre recorded music, 30% live sound. My system hasn't been moved once in three years, and while the possibility exists that it may be later used differently, I'm not concerned about size or weight. 80% of the time I've been pretty happy with my setup, but when asking what I would consider "my" maximum requirements, it falls short just a bit. I find the Yamaha dxr very warm and have a certain depth and clarity without being to harsh, up to about 80/85% of their max, about where they start to faulter just a bit on the low end, crossed @100hz, and the highs start to get just a tad harsh. For mains I can run3 way or 2 way, size doesn't really matter, and there are definitely times I run the system without subs, say singing later at night. The 718's do fine as well, once again to a point. On subs I definitely have pushed the current setup to where I'm hitting max driver excursion, audibly. 718's tone isn't bad, but would prefer more rounded low end. They're good subs for what I paid, but I think I'm ready for a bit more. System requirements are sound quality first, levels good enough for up to a few hundred people outdoors, and components need to be simplified and of good quality, I expect to still be using it in five years.
I'd like two strong performing mains with excellent sound quality, and for subs I'm leaning towards 4 DXS18's, 4 ETX 18's, or 2 RCF 8004 or 8005.
I have good pricing access to EAW, RCF, DB technologies, and Yamaha. There are others, but I'd likely want to stay focused there unless there's a promising lesser known brand I should consider. Budget would be somewhere around 8-9k. Thank you for your help!
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Posted on this earlier, but changing directions. After some reflections on where and how I use my system I'm requesting some help from those who have heard and used better equipment than I. I have a good mixer and driverack VENU360, and good signal equipment feeding the mixer. From there I've been running 2dxr12's and 2prx718xlf's. about 70% use is playing pre recorded music, 30% live sound. My system hasn't been moved once in three years, and while the possibility exists that it may be later used differently, I'm not concerned about size or weight. 80% of the time I've been pretty happy with my setup, but when asking what I would consider "my" maximum requirements, it falls short just a bit. I find the Yamaha dxr very warm and have a certain depth and clarity without being to harsh, up to about 80/85% of their max, about where they start to faulter just a bit on the low end, crossed @100hz, and the highs start to get just a tad harsh. For mains I can run3 way or 2 way, size doesn't really matter, and there are definitely times I run the system without subs, say singing later at night. The 718's do fine as well, once again to a point. On subs I definitely have pushed the current setup to where I'm hitting max driver excursion, audibly. 718's tone isn't bad, but would prefer more rounded low end. They're good subs for what I paid, but I think I'm ready for a bit more. System requirements are sound quality first, levels good enough for up to a few hundred people outdoors, and components need to be simplified and of good quality, I expect to still be using it in five years.
I'd like two strong performing mains with excellent sound quality, and for subs I'm leaning towards 4 DXS18's, 4 ETX 18's, or 2 RCF 8004 or 8005.
I have good pricing access to EAW, RCF, DB technologies, and Yamaha. There are others, but I'd likely want to stay focused there unless there's a promising lesser known brand I should consider. Budget would be somewhere around 8-9k. Thank you for your help!
For 8k I think the only upgrade that is going to get you a significant improvement to what you have is JTR's. The big RCF and DB Tech cabinets you can only get 2 for 8k, that's not as big a step up as you think. You need 4 dual 18's to get you going.
4 JBL STX828SP's are also in your budget and would do well. If you sell your existing system you can probably get 4 STX835SP's to upgrade the tops too.
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I have two 718's that will be going away, I can get 4 Dxs18's, 4 etx 18's, or 2 RCF 8004, or possibly 2 8005 if I stretched my budget a bit. Using my sources that's between 4.5 to 6k on subs. I could likely get to about 2500 Map per main, prefer 2. That's where I'm struggling more. Looking at the EAW RL15. The SRX835 won't be in my possession shortly, I'm calling it quits there.
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I have two 718's that will be going away, I can get 4 Dxs18's, 4 etx 18's, or 2 RCF 8004, or possibly 2 8005 if I stretched my budget a bit. Using my sources that's between 4.5 to 6k on subs. I could likely get to about 2500 Map per main, prefer 2. That's where I'm struggling more. Looking at the EAW RL15. The SRX835 won't be in my possession shortly, I'm calling it quits there.
I don't pay much attention to MAP buy you should be able to get 4 835 and 4 828's for right around 10k delivered.
Why do you need four tops. Are you covering a space that is to wide for the dispersion of the speaker? You can't combine tops to increase output the way you do subs.
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I own RCF 8004's, and i must say i am still very impressed by them, but they are a bit pricy. Maybe the new 8003-as mk2 will work for you? They are around 1500 USD MAP here in Europe, where the 8004 is around 2300 USD MAP.
ETX 18: really not impressed by them, and over here 200 USD more expensive than the 8003 mk2. I haven't heard the 8003 mk2 yet, but if they are anything like the 8004 you will be happy.
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I don't pay much attention to MAP buy you should be able to get 4 835 and 4 828's for right around 10k delivered.
Why do you need four tops. Are you covering a space that is to wide for the dispersion of the speaker? You can't combine tops to increase output the way you do subs.
Scott, I'm sorry, I guess I didn't properly clarify things well. I'd like to end up with two tops, four subs. I will still consider the SRX 828's, although I'd only get two if I went that direction. That being said, I'm not sticking with the SRX 835's, they are being returned. I don't need to have matching tops and subs, but I'm not against it either.
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I own RCF 8004's, and i must say i am still very impressed by them, but they are a bit pricy. Maybe the new 8003-as mk2 will work for you? They are around 1500 USD MAP here in Europe, where the 8004 is around 2300 USD MAP.
ETX 18: really not impressed by them, and over here 200 USD more expensive than the 8003 mk2. I haven't heard the 8003 mk2 yet, but if they are anything like the 8004 you will be happy.
If I go RCF on the subs I'd likely lean towards the 8004 or 8005, and go with two. I could likely afford 4 of the 8003 if I spent a little more time getting funds together, which is an option. I was leaning towards the 4 DXS18's or 4 ETX18, because I know I'll need to double the prx718's to get a noticeable difference. From what I've heard and read, both of those are better performing subs, albeit not a quantum leap, than the 718, one on one / head to head. The reason for considering two RCF was budget. I would expect two 8004 or 8005 would also perform better than two 718, but think I'd get a more noticeable increase in sub output by running 4 18's. Since you own the 8004, will 2 outperform 4 decent quality 18's that I've previously mentioned? As for mains, what would be your choice there?
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For 8k I think the only upgrade that is going to get you a significant improvement to what you have is JTR's. The big RCF and DB Tech cabinets you can only get 2 for 8k, that's not as big a step up as you think. You need 4 dual 18's to get you going.
4 JBL STX828SP's are also in your budget and would do well. If you sell your existing system you can probably get 4 STX835SP's to upgrade the tops too.
A pair of Yamaha DSR112s sound really good with the JTR Orbit Shifter subs and for dance music the Yorkville LS 800/801p subs will fill the low end better than many subs of the same size. Either combo could put you under your $8k budget, maybe well under as you may find that you only need a pair of either of these subs compared to others. I agree that you don't need multiple tops unless you have a wide area to cover, especially if you have 90x60 tops, you will need a higher, clearer output though, which the DSR handles.
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Posted on this earlier, but changing directions. After some reflections on where and how I use my system I'm requesting some help from those who have heard and used better equipment than I. I have a good mixer and driverack VENU360, and good signal equipment feeding the mixer. From there I've been running 2dxr12's and 2prx718xlf's. about 70% use is playing pre recorded music, 30% live sound. My system hasn't been moved once in three years, and while the possibility exists that it may be later used differently, I'm not concerned about size or weight. 80% of the time I've been pretty happy with my setup, but when asking what I would consider "my" maximum requirements, it falls short just a bit. I find the Yamaha dxr very warm and have a certain depth and clarity without being to harsh, up to about 80/85% of their max, about where they start to faulter just a bit on the low end, crossed @100hz, and the highs start to get just a tad harsh. For mains I can run3 way or 2 way, size doesn't really matter, and there are definitely times I run the system without subs, say singing later at night. The 718's do fine as well, once again to a point. On subs I definitely have pushed the current setup to where I'm hitting max driver excursion, audibly. 718's tone isn't bad, but would prefer more rounded low end. They're good subs for what I paid, but I think I'm ready for a bit more. System requirements are sound quality first, levels good enough for up to a few hundred people outdoors, and components need to be simplified and of good quality, I expect to still be using it in five years.
I'd like two strong performing mains with excellent sound quality, and for subs I'm leaning towards 4 DXS18's, 4 ETX 18's, or 2 RCF 8004 or 8005.
I have good pricing access to EAW, RCF, DB technologies, and Yamaha. There are others, but I'd likely want to stay focused there unless there's a promising lesser known brand I should consider. Budget would be somewhere around 8-9k. Thank you for your help!
I just wanted to give JTR a vote here also. I just purchased (2) JTR 3TXs and (4) of the Captivator 212 pros and have only used them at (2) city "First Saturdays" outdoor events. We play MP3 tracks before the show and during breaks and band live reinforcement the rest of the time at these events. I am really happy with the setup. It is a lot lighter and more compact than my previous setup and sounds fantastic. Call Jeff and tell him what your looking for and see what he recommends, seems to work out great (can't hurt).
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I just wanted to give JTR a vote here also. I just purchased (2) JTR 3TXs and (4) of the Captivator 212 pros and have only used them at (2) city "First Saturdays" outdoor events. We play MP3 tracks before the show and during breaks and band live reinforcement the rest of the time at these events. I am really happy with the setup. It is a lot lighter and more compact than my previous setup and sounds fantastic. Call Jeff and tell him what your looking for and see what he recommends, seems to work out great (can't hurt).
Can you offer a subjective opinion of the 212's vs. the output of two KW181's, EV ETX or JBL PRX (I suspect there are others in this class but those are the only I have experience with). I am hoping you tell me that single 96 pound box has the output of two 90lb boxes!
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Can you offer a subjective opinion of the 212's vs. the output of two KW181's, EV ETX or JBL PRX (I suspect there are others in this class but those are the only I have experience with). I am hoping you tell me that single 96 pound box has the output of two 90lb boxes!
I wish I could, but I don't have any personal experience with any of the others that are mentioned. Even the subs I own, the EV EKX 18s, and EV TX1181, I have never used them in this same setting or done a side by side comparison.
What I can offer is this, previously I was using a Yorkville Unity setup for these type local outdoor events prior to purchasing the JTR system. I used the Yorkville setup for 5 years. I was using (4) of the UCS1 subs and based on the size events with no more than 400 in attendance and genres I am doing (Country, Blues Rock and R&B) the Yorkville subs worked great.
The event this past Saturday only had about 200 people show up, the setting was in the street with buildings on both sides the area was 80' x 135' and most people set way back from the stage maybe 60' or more. The most radical music played at intermission was some mild Hip-Hop, had more than enough low end for any of the playback music, actually I was happily surprised, the band was a R&B band as far as the live music reinforcement.
I am using the passive subs and powering (4) of the 212s with (1) Crown MA5000i. Crossing over at 105Hz. I am using the Harmon iPad app to monitor the amps, The amp was running at about 50% input and output levels for most of the night and I had plenty of low end and room for more if needed. I was really impressed. Nice punchy low end perfect for bass guitar, keys, and kick. I did push a little hard on a drum solo and then a bass solo, the system did great and had plenty of room if I needed more. Beyond what I expected.
I center stacked about 2' in front of the stage. I will attach photos someone posted.
I do prefer the 212s as far as the shows I do and my needs over the UCS1s and at this point will use the 212s until my needs change.
I have quit a few retired musicians and one active A1 who come to some of the shows we do and they also offer their opinions, solicited or not, the A1 was really impressed by the JTR system and one of the most passively critical musicians (who does have a good ear in my opinion) that comes to some of the shows was in attendance and he said at least three times, "man you have plenty of low end"
I may have given more info than requested, but I just wanted you to understand how I am using the equipment.
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I wish I could, but I don't have any personal experience with any of the others that are mentioned. Even the subs I own, the EV EKX 18s, and EV TX1181, I have never used them in this same setting or done a side by side comparison.
What I can offer is this, previously I was using a Yorkville Unity setup for these type local outdoor events prior to purchasing the JTR system. I used the Yorkville setup for 5 years. I was using (4) of the UCS1 subs and based on the size events with no more than 400 in attendance and genres I am doing (Country, Blues Rock and R&B) the Yorkville subs worked great.
The event this past Saturday only had about 200 people show up, the setting was in the street with buildings on both sides the area was 80' x 135' and most people set way back from the stage maybe 60' or more. The most radical music played at intermission was some mild Hip-Hop, had more than enough low end for any of the playback music, actually I was happily surprised, the band was a R&B band as far as the live music reinforcement.
I am using the passive subs and powering (4) of the 212s with (1) Crown MA5000i. Crossing over at 105Hz. I am using the Harmon iPad app to monitor the amps, The amp was running at about 50% input and output levels for most of the night and I had plenty of low end and room for more if needed. I was really impressed. Nice punchy low end perfect for bass guitar, keys, and kick. I did push a little hard on a drum solo and then a bass solo, the system did great and had plenty of room if I needed more. Beyond what I expected.
I center stacked about 2' in front of the stage. I will attach photos someone posted.
I do prefer the 212s as far as the shows I do and my needs over the UCS1s and at this point will use the 212s until my needs change.
I have quit a few retired musicians and one active A1 who come to some of the shows we do and they also offer their opinions, solicited or not, the A1 was really impressed by the JTR system and one of the most passively critical musicians (who does have a good ear in my opinion) that comes to some of the shows was in attendance and he said at least three times, "man you have plenty of low end"
I may have given more info than requested, but I just wanted you to understand how I am using the equipment.
No that's great.....Thank's Steve. Where are you located? I travel quite a bit for my other vocation.
Do you happen to have a front shot that is not fuzzy or do I just need to clean my glasses (or monitor it is allergy season).
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No that's great.....Thank's Steve. Where are you located? I travel quite a bit for my other vocation.
Do you happen to have a front shot that is not fuzzy or do I just need to clean my glasses (or monitor it is allergy season).
I am in Hartwell, GA. About 100 miles north of Atlanta straight up I-85.
No good shots yet. I am sure my wife took some great shots, but I don't have access to those yet.
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I am in Hartwell, GA. About 100 miles north of Atlanta straight up I-85.
No good shots yet. I am sure my wife took some great shots, but I don't have access to those yet.
Used to go to lake lanier years ago when I dated a gal that worked for digital equipment in Alpharetta. You are another 30 minutes up the road?
Look forward to the pics.
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Used to go to lake lanier years ago when I dated a gal that worked for digital equipment in Alpharetta. You are another 30 minutes up the road?
Look forward to the pics.
About an hour from Lanier. I am a straight shot from ATL. Not as straight from Lanier.
As soon as I get a good photo I will post it.
The 212s are great. The OP seems to be referencing active gear and the JTR Captivators are available as active, but there again I haven't used the active version. Really looking at the original post my post here doesn't seem that valuable because I am stuck on passive equipment, (personal preference). I do think JTR is worth consideration.
I will say I own a couple RCF Evox 8s and based on the performance of those bass bins I would imagine that the lineup of the other RCF subs is great.
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If I go RCF on the subs I'd likely lean towards the 8004 or 8005, and go with two. I could likely afford 4 of the 8003 if I spent a little more time getting funds together, which is an option. I was leaning towards the 4 DXS18's or 4 ETX18, because I know I'll need to double the prx718's to get a noticeable difference. From what I've heard and read, both of those are better performing subs, albeit not a quantum leap, than the 718, one on one / head to head. The reason for considering two RCF was budget. I would expect two 8004 or 8005 would also perform better than two 718, but think I'd get a more noticeable increase in sub output by running 4 18's. Since you own the 8004, will 2 outperform 4 decent quality 18's that I've previously mentioned? As for mains, what would be your choice there?
Well, what can i say? I guess 1 8004 is about equal to 1.5 'decent' 18's. But that is not so important. It's the way they sound that makes them special.
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About an hour from Lanier. I am a straight shot from ATL. Not as straight from Lanier.
As soon as I get a good photo I will post it.
The 212s are great. The OP seems to be referencing active gear and the JTR Captivators are available as active, but there again I haven't used the active version. Really looking at the original post my post here doesn't seem that valuable because I am stuck on passive equipment, (personal preference). I do think JTR is worth consideration.
I will say I own a couple RCF Evox 8s and based on the performance of those bass bins I would imagine that the lineup of the other RCF subs is great.
Yes the 2x18 powered captivators are at an attractive price point.
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Well, what can i say? I guess 1 8004 is about equal to 1.5 'decent' 18's. But that is not so important. It's the way they sound that makes them special.
Can you elaborate a bit more on the sonic differences??? I like bass that is full and rounded, punchy is nice but not at the expense of neglected frequencies in the 40-60 hz range. I'd love to say even a little lower is still important, but I realize getting good response below 40hz is expensive and I can live with some tapering below that point. I still am of the opinion that I will need at least 4 18's to get a measurable output improvement from what I currently have. I did take a look at JTR and the captivator 218 in the powered option certainly caught my eye, as did the orbit shifter pro, but boy if I ever did need to transport them, ouch. Thank you for the feedback, I do appreciate it. I'm hoping to get some feedback from someone who has run 4 DXS18's as well. I know they're bandpass, and that has me a little cautious right now, but most reviews have been quite positive. 2 8004's are definitely an option, I'd like to know how the new 8003 and 8004 compare. I'd have to take a little more time to get the funds for 4 8003's, but at least they'd likely not be changed soon so it's a possibility long term.
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I own RCF 8004's, and i must say i am still very impressed by them, but they are a bit pricy. Maybe the new 8003-as mk2 will work for you? They are around 1500 USD MAP here in Europe, where the 8004 is around 2300 USD MAP.
ETX 18: really not impressed by them, and over here 200 USD more expensive than the 8003 mk2. I haven't heard the 8003 mk2 yet, but if they are anything like the 8004 you will be happy.
FWIW - the 8004 is excellent, the 8003 MK1 was very ordinary and I have not heard that the 8003MK2 is a huge improvement ... I would check them out first.
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FWIW - the 8004 is excellent, the 8003 MK1 was very ordinary and I have not heard that the 8003MK2 is a huge improvement ... I would check them out first.
That was my concern, there's a 1000 difference in price between the 8003/8004, I suspect there's a reason for it. I have heard good things about the 8004, very little about the 8003.
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A pair of Yamaha DSR112s sound really good with the JTR Orbit Shifter subs and for dance music the Yorkville LS 800/801p subs will fill the low end better than many subs of the same size. Either combo could put you under your $8k budget, maybe well under as you may find that you only need a pair of either of these subs compared to others. I agree that you don't need multiple tops unless you have a wide area to cover, especially if you have 90x60 tops, you will need a higher, clearer output though, which the DSR handles.
You can't buy them new any more unless you find leftover stock, but Yorkville USC1Ps also sound great under DSRs. I've used that combo a couple of times this year when I didn't fell like dragging out the U15Ps and have been really pleased with it even with no external processing on the tops.
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FWIW - the 8004 is excellent, the 8003 MK1 was very ordinary and I have not heard that the 8003MK2 is a huge improvement ... I would check them out first.
Hi Peter,
The spec sheet for the 8004 makes it look like they're about -10dB @ 40Hz - does that match with your experience by any chance please?
Many thanks,
David.
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Hi Peter,
The spec sheet for the 8004 makes it look like they're about -10dB @ 40Hz - does that match with your experience by any chance please?
Many thanks,
David.
Yes that is about right - it had usable output down to the lowest note on a bass guitar (open E - 41 Hz) very solid from about 45Hz and up.
I suspect the 8003MK2 is better but have a look at this - http://www.rcf.it/c/document_library/get_file?p_l_id=251504&folderId=22491&name=DLFE-6501.pdf
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Yes that is about right - it had usable output down to the lowest note on a bass guitar (open E - 41 Hz) very solid from about 45Hz and up.
I suspect the 8003MK2 is better but have a look at this - http://www.rcf.it/c/document_library/get_file?p_l_id=251504&folderId=22491&name=DLFE-6501.pdf
Thanks.
Yup, I'd seen that graph before - looks a lot like the classic "one-note-wonder" bandpass type response, (even though it's vented), but not having heard one, I couldn't comment on the actual sound.
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. . .I have good pricing access to EAW, RCF, DB technologies, . . .
Recently checked out the dB Tech S30N subs at my rep's shop and was impressed. Pricing is better than RCF dual 18" boxes. Also liked the DVX D12HP tops. Also gives some flexibility if you want to used the D12's as wedges later and upgrade to line source tops or to T8-T12 line array boxes, both of which ground stack nicely on the S30N subs.
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I did take a look at JTR and the captivator 218 in the powered option certainly caught my eye, as did the orbit shifter pro, but boy if I ever did need to transport them, ouch. Thank you for the feedback, I do appreciate it.
As far as moving and transporting the Orbit Shifters I was pleasantly surprised. I can fit a pair in my Odyssey minivan, they are well balanced, roll easy and the handles on the bottom make them very easy to tip into the vehicle and pull them back out. Way easier on my back than the (40lb lighter) Yorkville LS800p I also lug around - I have to lift that into the van and crouch to wheel it around.
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Recently checked out the dB Tech S30N subs at my rep's shop and was impressed. Pricing is better than RCF dual 18" boxes. Also liked the DVX D12HP tops. Also gives some flexibility if you want to used the D12's as wedges later and upgrade to line source tops or to T8-T12 line array boxes, both of which ground stack nicely on the S30N subs.
FWIW db Tech have just add FIR filter pre-sets to the T8 & T12 ... they are sounding fantastic, much better than some of the old respected name brand boxes. For those that have T8's & T12"s the upgrade is quite easy to do.
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FWIW db Tech have just add FIR filter pre-sets to the T8 & T12 ... they are sounding fantastic, much better than some of the old respected name brand boxes. For those that have T8's & T12"s the upgrade is quite easy to do.
I heard them the day after the update came out, and they indeed sounded very good. Certainly better than the front runner constant curvature boxes in their price range. . .
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FWIW db Tech have just add FIR filter pre-sets to the T8 & T12 ... they are sounding fantastic, much better than some of the old respected name brand boxes. For those that have T8's & T12"s the upgrade is quite easy to do.
I think I have narrowed things down a little more, but would still like to hear a little more from those who have actually heard and used the following. I've split it between two groupings, 4 upper end MI or 2 higher end boxes. Narrowed to the following.
4-DXS18's, best value leader with new $200 per sub rebate, or
4-EV ETX18's, little concerned about limiting issues people have expressed and not super into the preset/ menu stuff, but have heard very good reviews on sound quality., or
2 of either RCF 8004/ or 8005, DB Technologies KS10
Considered 2 JTR or Bassboss, but would have to buy without hearing, wouldn't really have any local support, and those are definitely pushing the budget.
Once again, been running 2 JBL 718XLF's, looking for a noticeable improvement in output, how's the money best spent? I've lowered the budget to about 4500 or so, I could swing the 5-5.5 for the RCF or DB, but from what I've read 4 18's are likely going to have better output than two unless spending more than I'm comfortable with. Having a hard time finding a place to hear them as well, but planning a day trip into Dallas in a week to make a purchase. Only thing I've been able to arrange to hear is the ETX18., and a possible lead on hearing the Yamaha reps DXS18 side by side with the ETX.
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I think I have narrowed things down a little more, but would still like to hear a little more from those who have actually heard and used the following. I've split it between two groupings, 4 upper end MI or 2 higher end boxes. Narrowed to the following.
4-DXS18's, best value leader with new $200 per sub rebate, or
4-EV ETX18's, little concerned about limiting issues people have expressed and not super into the preset/ menu stuff, but have heard very good reviews on sound quality., or
2 of either RCF 8004/ or 8005, DB Technologies KS10
Considered 2 JTR or Bassboss, but would have to buy without hearing, wouldn't really have any local support, and those are definitely pushing the budget.
Once again, been running 2 JBL 718XLF's, looking for a noticeable improvement in output, how's the money best spent? I've lowered the budget to about 4500 or so, I could swing the 5-5.5 for the RCF or DB, but from what I've read 4 18's are likely going to have better output than two unless spending more than I'm comfortable with. Having a hard time finding a place to hear them as well, but planning a day trip into Dallas in a week to make a purchase. Only thing I've been able to arrange to hear is the ETX18., and a possible lead on hearing the Yamaha reps DXS18 side by side with the ETX.
Scott, if you're keeping the JBL SRX835s, I would strongly suggest you get the matching SRX subs. Having a matching system is very valuable.
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Scott, if you're keeping the JBL SRX835s, I would strongly suggest you get the matching SRX subs. Having a matching system is very valuable.
Not really sure if I'm keeping the 835's yet. I have another week or two before I have to make that call. Sound quality wise I'm now pleased, sound level wise, not as much. For whatever reason the only way I can get sufficient output from the 835 is to run them on consumer input sensitivity, with a little rollback from there. I think -6 is where they are now, which is roughly about 6db higher than the line level input, and I'm pushing the mixer to max ideal operating levels according to the Allen and Heath owners manual. The SRX subs don't have that option, only line level input. I'm not super confident I will get the output from the SRX subs without that, or at least not without maxing the output gain on the sub, running my board super hot, and pushing it to the limits, which I'm not really comfortable with. Personally I think JBL should do something in the form of a firmware update to adjust the input gain staging because out of the box, set on line level, I don't think they are capable of their posted output specs. If I could get the output level I want, and get from every other piece of gear I've ever owned set at line level, it wouldn't be a problem, there wouldn't be any question about keeping the 835's, and I would likely be making arrangements to purchase two 828's. Can you explain what you mean by having value in a matching system. The irony here is that the SRX mains and SRX subs aren't actually matched in regards to the input sensitivity, and wouldn't be if running on my setup. Another post in another topic, from someone running the "matched" set is having to do the same thing, run his input on the mains on consumer, trimming back a bit, and then running subs on line, and cranking the output to max, set at line level. That doesn't sound very well sorted out to me. He did say it sounds great, and ultimately that is the goal, but I would prefer a less complex way to get there.
Similarly, that's one of the concerns for me with the ETX series, although I haven't heard any complaints about output, several have voiced concerns about limiting and protective measures stepping in once getting the output people want. I haven't found anything negative about the sound quality, but once again, the dsp wizardry seems to get intrusive at times on that system as well.
I think I like a good "old fashioned" plug it in, set to line, pick crossover point, add boost, deep, punch or whatever if you want, which I usually leave off, and then eq to taste is simpler, quicker, and less frustrating, for me.
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Not really sure if I'm keeping the 835's yet. I have another week or two before I have to make that call. Sound quality wise I'm now pleased, sound level wise, not as much. For whatever reason the only way I can get sufficient output from the 835 is to run them on consumer input sensitivity, with a little rollback from there. I think -6 is where they are now, which is roughly about 6db higher than the line level input, and I'm pushing the mixer to max ideal operating levels according to the Allen and Heath owners manual. The SRX subs don't have that option, only line level input. I'm not super confident I will get the output from the SRX subs without that, or at least not without maxing the output gain on the sub, running my board super hot, and pushing it to the limits, which I'm not really comfortable with. Personally I think JBL should do something in the form of a firmware update to adjust the input gain staging because out of the box, set on line level, I don't think they are capable of their posted output specs. If I could get the output level I want, and get from every other piece of gear I've ever owned set at line level, it wouldn't be a problem, there wouldn't be any question about keeping the 835's, and I would likely be making arrangements to purchase two 828's. Can you explain what you mean by having value in a matching system. The irony here is that the SRX mains and SRX subs aren't actually matched in regards to the input sensitivity, and wouldn't be if running on my setup. Another post in another topic, from someone running the "matched" set is having to do the same thing, run his input on the mains on consumer, trimming back a bit, and then running subs on line, and cranking the output to max, set at line level. That doesn't sound very well sorted out to me. He did say it sounds great, and ultimately that is the goal, but I would prefer a less complex way to get there.
Similarly, that's one of the concerns for me with the ETX series, although I haven't heard any complaints about output, several have voiced concerns about limiting and protective measures stepping in once getting the output people want. I haven't found anything negative about the sound quality, but once again, the dsp wizardry seems to get intrusive at times on that system as well.
I think I like a good "old fashioned" plug it in, set to line, pick crossover point, add boost, deep, punch or whatever if you want, which I usually leave off, and then eq to taste is simpler, quicker, and less frustrating, for me.
Scott, if simple is the goal, get a matching system - i.e. SRX835p/SRX828sp, recall the appropriate factory tunings, wire from your mixer to the subs, the subs to the 835s, and turn up your mixer slightly. You will have a system that doesn't fight itself (phase alignment between mains and subs), is very well protected, and sounds great. EQing to taste can be done either in the SRX Connect IPad app, Harmon Audio Architect, or externally via your DSP.
You are spending too much thought energy on levels. If you want to run your MixWizard cooler, gain can be added in several places - in your DSP outputs, or in Audio Architect, as has been discussed in a number of threads.
Mixing and matching subs to mains creates tuning challenges that are more complicated than the Auto-EQ wizard can handle. Can it be done? Sure. Is it simpler/less work than getting a matching system and turning up the gain on the outputs of the Venue360 you already own? No.
I have written many times that I think JBL's 26dB gain decision is dumb, but it doesn't appear they are going to change it. At the end of the day, it isn't a big deal, just different than other boxes.
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Scott, if simple is the goal, get a matching system - i.e. SRX835p/SRX828sp, recall the appropriate factory tunings, wire from your mixer to the subs, the subs to the 835s, and turn up your mixer slightly.
I run my subs on the mono output from the mixwizard, then to input three on the driverack, then to output three, then to the subs. I prefer to keep it that way as it provides a quick and easy adjustment to tailor the low frequency output to the mains, as some prerecorded music needs a little more, or a little less. Yes, this might be better addressed with eq vs faders, but it's faster and easier, and usually gets me what I need in a second or two.
You are spending too much thought energy on levels. If you want to run your MixWizard cooler, gain can be added in several places - in your DSP outputs, or in Audio Architect, as has been discussed in a number of threads.
I have read the threads regarding using audio architect to adjust gain issues, from what I understand the adjustments are being made in the compression block, using makeup gain. Is that where you are referring to? Admittedly I don't know much about how to use that, perhaps I need to learn. Is there another area in audio architect to achieve results or is that where it happens? Thank you for the input and patience.
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Scott, if simple is the goal, get a matching system - i.e. SRX835p/SRX828sp, recall the appropriate factory tunings, wire from your mixer to the subs, the subs to the 835s, and turn up your mixer slightly.
I run my subs on the mono output from the mixwizard, then to input three on the driverack, then to output three, then to the subs. I prefer to keep it that way as it provides a quick and easy adjustment to tailor the low frequency output to the mains, as some prerecorded music needs a little more, or a little less. Yes, this might be better addressed with eq vs faders, but it's faster and easier, and usually gets me what I need in a second or two.
You are spending too much thought energy on levels. If you want to run your MixWizard cooler, gain can be added in several places - in your DSP outputs, or in Audio Architect, as has been discussed in a number of threads.
I have read the threads regarding using audio architect to adjust gain issues, from what I understand the adjustments are being made in the compression block, using makeup gain. Is that where you are referring to? Admittedly I don't know much about how to use that, perhaps I need to learn. Is there another area in audio architect to achieve results or is that where it happens? Thank you for the input and patience.
Learning starts with getting into it and adjusting. If you don't know how makeup gain works then you don't know how to use a compressor. If you don't know how to use a compressor you should not be running live sound. It's really that simple.
Also pay attention, you frequently respond inside the quote block. Lack of attention to detail. Seems to be a theme.
Sorry to be so harsh but this thread is beyond pedantic and you don't seem interested in the assistance being offered.
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Learning starts with getting into it and adjusting. If you don't know how makeup gain works then you don't know how to use a compressor. If you don't know how to use a compressor you should not be running live sound. It's really that simple.
Also pay attention, you frequently respond inside the quote block. Lack of attention to detail. Seems to be a theme.
Sorry to be so harsh but this thread is beyond pedantic and you don't seem interested in the assistance being offered.
Well I guess that's why my title says newbie, just trying to learn.
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Well I guess that's why my title says newbie, just trying to learn.
If you are trying to learn why would you not follow suggestions? What could it possibly hurt to log in and go through the settings and adjust them and observe the effect? You can always reset to default or save your settings to a scene.
Of course you never stop learning. I try and push my comfort zone every chance I get.
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JBL screwed up when they named it "consumer" setting. People don't like being shamed because of their wimpy mixer outputs. Should have called it Ultra Pro setting or such.
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JBL screwed up when they named it "consumer" setting. People don't like being shamed because of their wimpy mixer outputs. Should have called it Ultra Pro setting or such.
Mike, I could care less what they call it, I have been able to get good output from the 835's by using it. What makes no sense to me is why they don't have the same input sensitivity options available for the subs. Seems a matching set of products would have matching input options.
That being said, you mentioned "wimpy mixer outputs." As stated, I'm using a mixwizard, does this analog mixer have lower output than what's considered normal? I don't plan on making a change there at this point, but I'm curious to know what you meant by that.
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Well I guess that's why my title says newbie, just trying to learn.
No, your title says "newbie" because you are new to the forums OR have not posted much; it's based solely on your post count, and not time_elapsed_since_date_of_registration.
There are people registered on here that are considered "newbies," even though they are some of the most experienced audio peeps in the industry. They just don't post much.
[Eventually this thread will probably be moved to the Lounge, since it's really a lounge-level topic anyways.]
-Ray
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No, your title says "newbie" because you are new to the forums OR have not posted much; it's based solely on your post count, and not time_elapsed_since_date_of_registration.
There are people registered on here that are considered "newbies," even though they are some of the most experienced audio peeps in the industry. They just don't post much.
[Eventually this thread will probably be moved to the Lounge, since it's really a lounge-level topic anyways.]
-Ray
I agree it should be moved. I only post in the lab lounge now for any new questions, but clearly I'm not a live sound professional so I concur.
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Mike, I could care less what they call it, I have been able to get good output from the 835's by using it. What makes no sense to me is why they don't have the same input sensitivity options available for the subs. Seems a matching set of products would have matching input options.
That being said, you mentioned "wimpy mixer outputs." As stated, I'm using a mixwizard, does this analog mixer have lower output than what's considered normal? I don't plan on making a change there at this point, but I'm curious to know what you meant by that.
Lots of things end up a certain way not because it's the right/best way, but because of historical evolution.
As recently as maybe 15-20 years ago, audio equipment had limited dynamic range - meaning the space between the noise floor and clipping was small(er). Working around this was not always trivial, especially with really dynamic sources. Have the gain too low and you ended up with hiss when you add gain later in the chain. Have the gain too high and you end up with distortion.
Adding to the scientific nature of signal capture was "desirable distortion" - the preference for some people to intentionally run the signal levels hot because that made them sound better. How much of this is/was real vs imagined is left as an exercise to the reader, but a lot of people run their mixers pretty hot, even today.
JBL made the decision to use 26dB gain on their pro level equipment - the ITech and ITech HD amps because of these factors - mixers have a powerful drive section that has no trouble fully feeding an amp at 26dB gain, and less amp gain may mean less system noise. The SRXp boxes are in JBL's eyes pro-level products, and they have chosen to align their behavior with their touring-grade gear and give them similar voicing and gain structure. I don't believe it has been a good business decision as many people don't take the time to understand this and presume because you have to send them a hotter signal by default that they are less-capable than other boxes they get compared against, but it is what JBL chose to do.
Back to your situation, I have no doubt your MixWizard can drive any SRXp box to full output, though by default you will have to run your signal a little hotter than you have in the past. Unlike 20+ years ago, equipment headroom is much greater, and pretty much isn't a problem as long as you're not clipping anything. In other words, there's nothing wrong with the yellow lights on your MixWizard.
If this bothers you, you can add 6dB worth of gain on your DriveRack to both your mains and your subs, and leave those at the default settings. Your DriveRack meters may not exactly match what makes sense to you, but it truly is a perfectly acceptable solution. Alternatively, you can explore the in-speaker ways to do this via Audio Architect.
Many people are successful with these speakers. It's up to you if you want to invest the energy returning and shopping for more boxes or learning how to tune mismatched mains and subs, but truly the simplest path is to buy the matching subs for the speakers you have, choose one of several workflows to deal with the lower gain, and make music with them.
Scott, for the most part you have been asking the right questions. No one here should fault you for that. You have seemed to resist a lot of the feedback given though, so I think it's time for you to make a decision.
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What makes no sense to me is why they don't have the same input sensitivity options available for the subs. Seems a matching set of products would have matching input options.
Scott, FWIW I agree....makes no sense it doesn't match better.
Seems to me, the problem is the sub has both an unusually low gain (+20dB)......and a low sensitivity for such a low gain.
Anybody...Out of curiosity....can both gain and sensitivity be adjusted in Audio Architect?
And can it be set up either constant sensitivity or constant gain?
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Scott, FWIW I agree....makes no sense it doesn't match better.
Seems to me, the problem is the sub has both an unusually low gain (+20dB)......and a low sensitivity for such a low gain.
Anybody...Out of curiosity....can both gain and sensitivity be adjusted in Audio Architect?
And can it be set up either constant sensitivity or constant gain?
No, not with the stock control panel for the sub. I'd have to hook up a sub to AA to refresh my memory, but I don't recall the ability to change input sensitivity... and GAIN is a non-variable factor - the amp has whatever voltage gain it has, until you run out of PSU voltage swing or hit current limiting. That's true of every audio amplifier I've used over the last 35 years.
Dave Sturzenbecher pointed out in a different thread that you can create what AA calls a custom panel and will very likely have access to parameters that are not available to you in the stock device panel... Exactly what is available in the SRX800p? Dunno, I've had no reason to dig that far into things.
This entire discussion strikes me as being a tempest in a teapot, being promulgated by folks who are unable to grasp the concept of "Yo, DJ, turn it up." /nudge, wink
I grok the retro-interest as it mirrors considerations we all had to make decades ago (and a recent decade at that) when interfacing various and sundry amplifiesr, processing devices and consoles. Anyone who is interested should find a copy of "Sound System Engineering" by Don Davis and Carolyn Davis, 2nd Ed as they spend a lot of time dealing with levels and interfacing - because back then it was essential to having a quiet and well behaved system. In our contemporary situation, with gear where the vast majority of these interfacing issues have been rendered moot by the inclusion of DSP inside the loudspeaker, it is *not necessary* to revisit the past unless you want to learn about the good old dayz. I'm a big advocate of learning, particularly about the "why" and not just the "how" and think all audio professionals should be acquainted with the concepts outlined by Davis (and those who came before and after) but to match a powered subwoofer and powered top box and drive them from a reasonably recent console does not require this level of understanding nor should it require external *system* processing.
As for Scott G's comment about why JBL chose this input sensitivity - the projected use of these products will be in situations where they are integrated into a larger professional systems and this will help. Another, unstated reason: DJs. The "turn it up until the red lights stay on" kind of DJs. Lowering the input sensitivity probably lowers the warranty claim frequency of woofers and HF drivers...
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No, not with the stock control panel for the sub. I'd have to hook up a sub to AA to refresh my memory, but I don't recall the ability to change input sensitivity... and GAIN is a non-variable factor - the amp has whatever voltage gain it has, until you run out of PSU voltage swing or hit current limiting. That's true of every audio amplifier I've used over the last 35 years.
Dave Sturzenbecher pointed out in a different thread that you can create what AA calls a custom panel and will very likely have access to parameters that are not available to you in the stock device panel... Exactly what is available in the SRX800p? Dunno, I've had no reason to dig that far into things.
This entire discussion strikes me as being a tempest in a teapot, being promulgated by folks who are unable to grasp the concept of "Yo, DJ, turn it up." /nudge, wink
I grok the retro-interest as it mirrors considerations we all had to make decades ago (and a recent decade at that) when interfacing various and sundry amplifiesr, processing devices and consoles. Anyone who is interested should find a copy of "Sound System Engineering" by Don Davis and Carolyn Davis, 2nd Ed as they spend a lot of time dealing with levels and interfacing - because back then it was essential to having a quiet and well behaved system. In our contemporary situation, with gear where the vast majority of these interfacing issues have been rendered moot by the inclusion of DSP inside the loudspeaker, it is *not necessary* to revisit the past unless you want to learn about the good old dayz. I'm a big advocate of learning, particularly about the "why" and not just the "how" and think all audio professionals should be acquainted with the concepts outlined by Davis (and those who came before and after) but to match a powered subwoofer and powered top box and drive them from a reasonably recent console does not require this level of understanding nor should it require external *system* processing.
As for Scott G's comment about why JBL chose this input sensitivity - the projected use of these products will be in situations where they are integrated into a larger professional systems and this will help. Another, unstated reason: DJs. The "turn it up until the red lights stay on" kind of DJs. Lowering the input sensitivity probably lowers the warranty claim frequency of woofers and HF drivers...
Yep. I get that Gain is ultimately the voltage an amp can provide (and is simply stated as relative to some input voltage.)
On the QSC PL3 and PLD series, "gain" is changeable, but it is of course exactly offset by sensitivity voltage required for rated output.
I see the same thing in the I-Tech manual, where sensitivity can be changed, and the amp displays the resulting "gain".
For me, the simple way to think about gain is the way you say, it's non-variable.....and that all sensitivity is, is a hand shake between the mixer and the amp as to when the amp begins to work.
I remembered David saying something about AA and the sub...that's why i thought it might be worth asking...
Yeah, great book for sure...it still sits with all my manuals.
I kinda think the unstated DJ reason is what's going on.
Cause I dunno..the specs just seem schizophrenic: max input level of +20dBu and a gain of only +21dB seem to demand very different input voltage ranges......compared to any amps I'm used to....
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Yep. I get that Gain is ultimately the voltage an amp can provide (and is simply stated as relative to some input voltage.)
On the QSC PL3 and PLD series, "gain" is changeable, but it is of course exactly offset by sensitivity voltage required for rated output.
I see the same thing in the I-Tech manual, where sensitivity can be changed, and the amp displays the resulting "gain".
For me, the simple way to think about gain is the way you say, it's non-variable.....and that all sensitivity is, is a hand shake between the mixer and the amp as to when the amp begins to work.
I remembered David saying something about AA and the sub...that's why i thought it might be worth asking...
Yeah, great book for sure...it still sits with all my manuals.
I kinda think the unstated DJ reason is what's going on.
Cause I dunno..the specs just seem schizophrenic: max input level of +20dBu and a gain of only +21dB seem to demand very different input voltage ranges......compared to any amps I'm used to....
I remember back when Bob Carver built the first "mag cube" amps that later became the Carver PM series. Clair Bros was very keen on smaller/lighter amps (they still are) but had some specific changes needed before they would buy, and chief among them was lowering the input sensitivity to something around 2.x Volts (which I suspect corresponded to +26dB gain) in order to match the rest of their drive and signal processing needs.
The concept of fixed gain is VERY important once you get beyond using a hand full of amplifiers, particularly when you start mixing brands and models. The use of high input sensitivities (like the 0.775V I mention in another post) goes back very far (maybe 75 years), when the talking motion pictures and early sound mixers had relatively low output and drive was power transfer, not voltage. And even back then it was common to use fixed attenuation pads on amplifier input to lower the sensitivity. "Increasing" sensitivity wasn't an option, nor was driving the system at a higher level an option, so it made sense to make the amp inputs more sensitive for full output and attenuate the drive signal as needed.
Fast forward to nearer the end of the last century and this was changing - Crown had PIP modules for the MacroTechs that allowed selectable input sensitivity (including 26dB gain) and some of those selections eventually became an integral part of the amplifier design because it was no longer necessary to have a high sensitivity and users not accustomed to padding down inputs ended up with hissy, noisy systems for which the amp manufacturers were taking blame.
What you are used to, Mark, is a system drive legacy that is older than anyone here except Dick Rees. /Shameless plug for Geezer Audio Services
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Cause I dunno..the specs just seem schizophrenic: max input level of +20dBu and a gain of only +21dB seem to demand very different input voltage ranges......compared to any amps I'm used to....
Where did you get those numbers? It's my understanding that the whole SRXp series is 26dB gain.
Attached is a screenshot from Audio Architect. Disclaimer - I don't have any real speakers attached, but these settings should be the way it is.
The SRX835 standard page has output gain available up to +12dB which should more than offset the 6dB lower default input gain.
The SRX828sp does not show this by default, but by converting to a custom control panel (1 mouse click), that same +12dB output adjustment is available.
As Tim said, this is a minor issue at most.
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Fast forward to nearer the end of the last century and this was changing - Crown had PIP modules for the MacroTechs that allowed selectable input sensitivity (including 26dB gain) and some of those selections eventually became an integral part of the amplifier design because it was no longer necessary to have a high sensitivity and users not accustomed to padding down inputs ended up with hissy, noisy systems for which the amp manufacturers were taking blame.
What you are used to, Mark, is a system drive legacy that is older than anyone here except Dick Rees. /Shameless plug for Geezer Audio Services
Now that made me laugh, thx ! And Yes, I am about that old.....
But you know, what I'm used to is the current stuff like the PL3s and PLDs.
I predominantly use 26dB gain across tops, active and passive....on everything except maybe subs.
I love the fact I can use amps with different power ratings interchangeably without adjustment, knowing available power is all that will change.
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Where did you get those numbers? It's my understanding that the whole SRXp series is 26dB gain.
Yeah, don't mean to be belaboring a minor issue....
Here's the link I got numbers from ...http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/SRX828SP_SpecSheet_7.28.15.pdf
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Where did you get those numbers? It's my understanding that the whole SRXp series is 26dB gain.
Attached is a screenshot from Audio Architect. Disclaimer - I don't have any real speakers attached, but these settings should be the way it is.
The SRX835 standard page has output gain available up to +12dB which should more than offset the 6dB lower default input gain.
The SRX828sp does not show this by default, but by converting to a custom control panel (1 mouse click), that same +12dB output adjustment is available.
As Tim said, this is a minor issue at most.
Thank you for the screenshot on the AA, that helps me. I have looked at the program, but haven't hooked up the speakers to a network yet, just got cable this weekend, already bought the router.
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Thank you for the screenshot on the AA, that helps me. I have looked at the program, but haven't hooked up the speakers to a network yet, just got cable this weekend, already bought the router.
Several weeks and topics later... Djeez.
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Thank you for the screenshot on the AA, that helps me. I have looked at the program, but haven't hooked up the speakers to a network yet, just got cable this weekend, already bought the router.
You don't need a router or wireless access point, you can connect your laptop directly to the 828's network port. Your laptop and the sub will default to private addresses in the 169.x.x.x range. It will take anywhere from 30-60 seconds for your laptop to decide there is no DHCP-provided IP address and then it will roll over to the 169 addy.
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I might have missed the suggestion, but you can also try running a short cable out of channel 1 of your 835 into channel 2.
I seem to remember somebody else doing this to get more level without running the mixer hotter.
Btw, what's your idea of the mix wiz being at your max comfortable level, do you have a pic where the meter is at?
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
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I might have missed the suggestion, but you can also try running a short cable out of channel 1 of your 835 into channel 2.
I seem to remember somebody else doing this to get more level without running the mixer hotter.
Btw, what's your idea of the mix wiz being at your max comfortable level, do you have a pic where the meter is at?
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
I talked with another user today who's in another state, was referred to me by the place I usually get my stuff. He mentioned that he runs a y cable right at the sub, taking his input and splitting it to two, and plugs both into the two input channels. He's using the 828's, and says it makes a small but noticeable difference. I haven't tried that personally. He also said he tried SRX connect and AA to address gain and ended with all gain settings back to stock. For him, he's doing the y cable, taking up both input channels, and runs his master output on the box at +8. For what it's worth, he has four 828's, and four 818's that he uses for different applications and he recommended the single cab over the dual cab. He felt there's a fuller sound with the single cab.
I have no idea whether using both input channels will make a difference or not. I certainly can't explain if it should or shouldn't be done. That being said I'm happy to listen if someone has additional information about doing that.
As for my mixer, I used to run it with only an occasional yellow light popping up, with the 835's I'm currently using I'm pretty consistently hitting + 6, with an occasional +9 ( which is the 3rd yellow meter.) To me that's pushing it, but from what others have said that's still acceptable. I don't feel at all comfortable pushing any higher.
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He mentioned that he runs a y cable right at the sub, taking his input and splitting it to two, and plugs both into the two input channels.
This is a great time to review another current thread (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,164379.0.html) that covers this exact question! :)
-Ray
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I did make the adjustments in the driverack and was able to get a hotter signal going to the 835's. However, I still had to change the input sensitivity to consumer and then roll it back to-6. From what I changed in both locations that's about 10-11 db hotter signal on the input side compared to what I originally had running the mixer to the mains with them set at line level. They are plenty loud now, and I definitely have the output to satisfy my requirements, on the mains. The SRX subs don't have that option as everyone has stated.
Heeding your advice, I have made a decision. I vote with my dollars, and for me, and my current knowledge level, the SRX system isn't quite what I expected. I know many people have good results with them, and that's great to know, furthermore I have several other JBL products that I'm extremely happy with. However, to be considerate of my time, and everyone else, I think it's time for me to move on and go a different direction. I sincerely thank everyone who has lent their assistance, I have learned a lot, and found out there's a significant amount of knowledge that I need to better understand. Once again, Thank you.