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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Lighting Forum => Topic started by: Luke McCready on February 06, 2020, 04:30:28 PM
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I've found almost nothing online about skipping ellipsoidals in favor of using RGBW washes. But two lighting vendors I've chatted with equated it to the 8th deadly sin. Ellipsoidals are expensive, and I'd rather not waste my budget on them when my design already includes a number of RGBW washes with color temperature presets.
Is CRI the issue? Is there some other reason why ellipsoidals are important? Or will RGBW washes suffice just fine in a mid-sized church environment?
Project background:
I'm creating a new lighting design for my workplace, a church. The stage is only 20 ft across, and the church likes to use dynamic, concert-like lighting for worship. Our budget is about $45k including fixtures, installation, new trusses, and some DMX upgrades. We're replacing 40-some knockoff intelligent lights - my hope is to replace all fixtures with more reliable ones, add more lights to fill the room itself with excitement, and add new effects. The budget is going quick.
My proposed design includes three Chauvet Pro COLORdash Par H12IP (12x10w RGBWAUV washes with a 22° beam) to cover the 20 ft stage, and eight Chauvet Pro Rogue R1X Wash movers (7x25w RGBW with 8-30° beam) that can hit the stage (6 movers maybe 12 ft in front of the pastor and 2 maybe 20-25 ft in front of the pastor).
I can't imagine audience members would care much. We're currently using a dad-joke of a Vaddio PTZ with plans to upgrade to cameras around the class of Sony BRC-H800 this year.
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Comparing an Ellipsoidal with a wash fixture is a bigger difference than comparing a traditional source with an LED source.
With an ellipsoidal, you can control thesize, shape, texture, edge, color and intensity of the beam of light. With a wash, well, you just get a wash of light.
If your goal is to just flood the stage with light, yeah, wash fixtures might be all you need. If you want to be able to control the light, then you'll need more. Most stage lighting setups will include a mixture of both.
You can get LED sources for either type of light today. The quality of LED lighting varies dramatically. Cheap LEDs suck monkeyballs and should be avoided whenever possible. Good lights are still stupid expensive, but are as good as traditional lights and produce a fraction of the heat.
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With an ellipsoidal, you can control thesize, shape, texture, edge, color and intensity of the beam of light. With a wash, well, you just get a wash of light.
If your goal is to just flood the stage with light, yeah, wash fixtures might be all you need. If you want to be able to control the light, then you'll need more. Most stage lighting setups will include a mixture of both.
You can get LED sources for either type of light today. The quality of LED lighting varies dramatically. Cheap LEDs suck monkeyballs and should be avoided whenever possible. Good lights are still stupid expensive, but are as good as traditional lights and produce a fraction of the heat.
Mover washes can control size, color, and intensity. Shape and edge are a function of barn doors, right? What do you mean by texture?
Would the fixtures I mentioned fall under cheap, good, or somewhere in between?
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The short answer is no - ellipsoidals and pars/Fresnels are two different types of lights for two very different purposes. Ellipsoidals are useful when you need good beam control, an even field - typically with a hard edge, and other utilities such as gobos and whatnot. Pars and Fresnels are usually used for short-throw applications where beam control and effects aren’t needed.
Pars and Fresnels (of the conventional type or COB) use barn doors for beam shaping, while ellipsoidals use framing shutters which give a much crisper edge. Never put barn doors on a moving light. Higher end “profile” moving lights can frame as well, though this is internal and controlled via DMX.
Getting to the point of your design (without seeing a plot), I think the 3 COLORdash Pars you propose won’t get you very far. I’d think somewhere in the 12-18 range will probably get you all the angles you need. Moving lights will go further in terms of being able to re-aim them, but they won’t solve all your problems and will be more susceptible to wear and tear breakdowns.
What controller are you using and how are your 40 current moving lights being used? Hope this helps!
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The short answer is no - ellipsoidals and pars/Fresnels are two different types of lights for two very different purposes. Ellipsoidals are useful when you need good beam control, an even field - typically with a hard edge, and other utilities such as gobos and whatnot. Pars and Fresnels are usually used for short-throw applications where beam control and effects aren’t needed.
Pars and Fresnels (of the conventional type or COB) use barn doors for beam shaping, while ellipsoidals use framing shutters which give a much crisper edge. Never put barn doors on a moving light. Higher end “profile” moving lights can frame as well, though this is internal and controlled via DMX.
Getting to the point of your design (without seeing a plot), I think the 3 COLORdash Pars you propose won’t get you very far. I’d think somewhere in the 12-18 range will probably get you all the angles you need. Moving lights will go further in terms of being able to re-aim them, but they won’t solve all your problems and will be more susceptible to wear and tear breakdowns.
What controller are you using and how are your 40 current moving lights being used? Hope this helps!
Of course no barn doors on movers. That would be silly. =]
12-18 of 12x10w washes to light up a 20 ft wide stage? Is that truly necessary?
In the current setup, we have 5x a brandless knockoff of the GLP Impression X4S (7x15w mover) and 4x what I believe to be the Blizzard RockLite RGBAW (36x3w, 8x of GBW and 6x RA) facing the stage. It's plenty bright, though two of the movers have significantly skewed color representation and can't make pure white anymore.
We're hoping to maintain our Jands S1 controller (mostly just used for aiming spots) and upgrade Vista 2 to Vista 3. We use all of our lights for very dynamic, concert-like lighting for church worship with lots of movement and intensity effects through heavy haze.
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Sermon lighting just needs a warm, even wash across the 20 ft stage. Covering 10 ft, to be honest, as the pastor doesn't move much. I believe that's very doable with the lights I mentioned in my initial post, though I haven't done it. Am I missing something?
Do I need the hard edges of ellipsoidals? Or true fresnels? With the unknown CRI of Chauvet Pro LED lights that can be set to color temperature presets, will the pastor look (at a minimum) decent on a good camera?
Thanks, gents! I appreciate your wisdom.
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Maybe look up some lighting techniques for theatre lighting. Flat lighting can be fine but you lose any depth on the face and it looks flat. You can use pars to do 45s and halo/back lighting but it's not going to be very tight and there will be a lot of bleed where you don't need it even if you use barn doors.
I enjoyed reading through this (http://www.theatrecrafts.com/pages/home/topics/lighting).
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From your description, it looks like all your fixtures are coming from in front of the stage. Angle is one of the primary tools in the lighting designer's arsenal. Do you have the ability to do sidelight, backlight, and downlight? Giving a three-dimensional appearance will do a lot.
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Jean-Pierre, thanks for the link. I agree, it was a good read, particularly the section on designing and focusing a wash. Thanks!
Scott, you raise a good point. The church isn't set up for true sidelight or downlight. By my math (as I'm not in the building today), the movers at the fringes of the lighting truss should be about 45° above the pastor's head and about 40° to his left and right. Also, there's the lighting grid above the back portion of the stage, where I'll have ideally six movers: a couple of these should be able to light him nicely from up and behind.
1) I've read a handful of guides on sermon lighting, and most are vague and somewhat contradictory. Any particular standout guides to any of you?
2) Is three-point lighting applicable for live events like sermons, particularly when a 10' width needs to be lit, to account for pastor movement? I'm thinking key, fill, and hairlight?
3) Would it be worth investing in a couple of pars for the floor, aiming up behind the pastor? Useful or not?
4) My original question still stands: anything magical about the CRI or other aspects of an ellipsoidal's quality of light that carefully aimed LED zoom washes can't get within 90% of?
I'm new to this forum, but I'm learning a ton. I'm extremely grateful, and hope I can answer as many questions for others as I've asked going forward. Thanks for being a great group!
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I don't think you will get the desired "white" color and Kelvin temp from the Colordash family.
I have some Chauvet EVE P-100WW fixtures that I use all the time for various events. Really bright, soft edge, comes with barn doors and have a nice natural looking warm white color. Changeable lenses for different bean angles. I use 25 all of the time. Can be set for 1 channel mode for 1 to 1 dimming.
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No.
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No.
No what? ???
Oh...see thread title.
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I’m guessing you are having someone install this for you? A large portion of your 45k will be eaten up in labor.
Fwiw, 2 years ago I put in 15 Chaivet Ovation ellipsoidals (mix of the 260 and 160) for my basic front wash
10 Elation Fuze Par 175’s for front color wash
8 Elation Fuze Wash Z120’s for rear eye candy
4 Elation Fuze Wash z350 for front lighting specials.
All of this was just under 40k but I did all the work myself.
The ovations have gone up a bit, but they are still (My opinion) the best deal in LED Leko’s.
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I’m guessing you are having someone install this for you? A large portion of your 45k will be eaten up in labor.
All of this was just under 40k but I did all the work myself.
The ovations have gone up a bit, but they are still (My opinion) the best deal in LED Leko’s.
Thanks for the Ovation recommendation.
My current design includes $42k of fixtures at Sweetwater/B&H pricing (none of them ellipsoidals), down to $35k from the right dealer. (No lemon-checking or in-warranty return handling at that rate, which I'll do.) There's a small local AV company I'm planning to work with, and I know and trust the owner. They're happy to replace one truss and install a second for $2.5k, and another $5k for fixture installation and wiring labor. I'm skipping their $1500 design and visualization fee by creating my own design, but will pay for consultation before ordering. Add in the cost of a DMX spool and terminators, another 1024 channel dongle, basic networking nodes, and possibly DMX splitters, and we should be in the ballpark. My all-in budget is $55k including three other small projects that I hope can be done for $5k combined but may take more.
Any and all project advice is welcome, though it's better to PM me to keep the thread on-topic.
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No.
Could you elaborate?
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Could you elaborate?
I certainly won't speak for Tim, but the rest of us have provided many reasons as to why the answer to your question is no. Washes (i.e. LED Pars, moving or not) and ellipsoidals are two completely different types of fixtures - both designed with specific applications in mind.
12-18 of 12x10w washes to light up a 20 ft wide stage? Is that truly necessary?
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Sermon lighting just needs a warm, even wash across the 20 ft stage. Covering 10 ft, to be honest, as the pastor doesn't move much. I believe that's very doable with the lights I mentioned in my initial post, though I haven't done it. Am I missing something?
Do I need the hard edges of ellipsoidals? Or true fresnels? With the unknown CRI of Chauvet Pro LED lights that can be set to color temperature presets, will the pastor look (at a minimum) decent on a good camera?
Yes. As mentioned in other posts, getting different angles is important. Hitting each position on stage from at least two angles is mandatory for proper natural lighting, and oftentimes you'll see this expanded to 5+ different angles - all for the same area on stage. Designing by zones also helps give the programmer more flexibility, though for each zone you repeat the number of fixture positions you need.
I'm not sure if your question about edges, fresnels, and CRI is all part of the same question, but these are all different considerations. The edges question pertains the degree of beam control you desire from a designer standpoint. CRI is more of a visual thing.
...I'm skipping their $1500 design and visualization fee by creating my own design, but will pay for consultation before ordering...
To be completely honest with you based on the questions you're asking and that you've admitted you've never designed like this before, I would think very carefully about skipping this service. The contractor will gladly install whatever you request, but since they're not signing off on the validity of any design there is no guarantee that any of what you're buying will work as you envisioned. It's one thing if you don't mind spending the money as a learning experience, but given that this is ~$50K of someone else's money, I think you have the obligation to spend that money as wisely as possible, even if it means admitting your own gaps in experience and paying someone with those skills to lend a hand. Best of luck!
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I don't know what the front of your church looks like, but to the extent that the sermon is the highlight of the church service and message, I would want to light it like a play, with the lead actor's main monologe as the dramatic highlight. For that, I would use light to focus the congregation's attention on the preacher, and minimze almost everything else. (Easter maybe is the exception.). I'd want the shutters of elipsoidals to define the focus (both of light and attention) and to exclude every other distraction. I would ideally have four or so to give the best modeling, but certainly two. I don't necessarily mean everything besides the preacher is in darkness, but I'd want powerful enough fixtures to really make a difference.
My two cent's worth. "Can somebody say Amen?" 😀
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I don't know what the front of your church looks like, but to the extent that the sermon is the highlight of the church service and message, I would want to light it like a play, with the lead actor's main monologe as the dramatic highlight. For that, I would use light to focus the congregation's attention on the preacher, and minimze almost everything else. (Easter maybe is the exception.). I'd want the shutters of elipsoidals to define the focus (both of light and attention) and to exclude every other distraction. I would ideally have four or so to give the best modeling, but certainly two. I don't necessarily mean everything besides the preacher is in darkness, but I'd want powerful enough fixtures to really make a difference.
My two cent's worth. "Can somebody say Amen?" 😀
+1
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Could you elaborate?
The big thing is you can't "frame" an LED par can. Even Barndoors are terrible at controlling spill.
A proper Leko will let you have a sharp cutoff, EXACTLY where you need it. For instance on my stage I have to keep lighting spill off our projection screens or it destroys the video. This means I have to "cut in" the sides with the shutter blades. I also cut in the bottom edge so that my front wash does not light up the front of vertical part of our stage which can be destracting. I also have a distinct section just for our band guys up on a small riser. I can seperate them from the rest of the stage when they are playing an instrumental. Conversely when we do the opening prayer and announcements I can dim the band and highlight the front of the stage.
You can't do any of this with LED par cans. They just blast light all over the place willy-nilly.
Watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWxeo4n-Pz4
About 5:45 you see the band dim out and the WL prays while highlighted.
Again at 20:55 the same thing happens.
Then at around 34:30 you see the transformation from Worship to Sermon.
Also, don't judge me about the Camera exposure, composition, and focus. There is a ton of light on the stage. Our video department is having some challenges getting everything looking the same and/or picking good shots. It's largely volunteer run and I'm really avoiding jumping in there and fixing it. I wear enough hats already.
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Thanks to everyone for your consideration and response.
Tim: no judgment from me. I have areas of production that I'm proud of, and areas that need work. Cameras that need to be upgraded are a big one, and tenured and paid technicians that are immune to suggestion but aren't as skilled as they think they are. =]
We have similar transitions, though even more dramatic as we keep our room darker, particularly during worship.
Mark and Dave: I love the idea of keeping more of the stage dark. I'll program with tighter beams. Thanks for this.
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Jeff:
I appreciate your concerns and that you shared them so openly. You're right that I have learning to do, which is why I'm here asking and learning, and voraciously reading up and watching videos on everything I can. I'm great at creating dynamic, powerful lighting shows that emphasize but do not distract from the music, but sermon lighting and the fixture design around it are areas for me to grow in. That's why I'm here asking. =]
I don't view my design as a gamble: it's a lot better suited for our space and what we do than the three designs I've received from vendors that don't charge. Why am I opting out of the design from the install vendor? Because I'm happy to do the leg-work of choosing fixtures and placements that are 90% there, and because I don't need him to visualize it in software for me. But the paid consultation is to catch my blind spots and get us from 90% to 100%, not so I can conduct the project blind and roll the dice.
My role as a project manager exists because the church trusts my research, that I'm asking the right questions, and that I know better than anyone what we do and what we could and couldn't benefit from, as I'm the church's primary LD. They're paying me to avoid the vendors that say "we can do it for $80-100k" and then offer up solutions that are poor for us when we can do better for less. I'm hungry for corners that can be cut without problem, which is not to say I'm cutting all corners purely for the sake of budget.
I don't have any confusion on the roles of fresnels and ellipsoidals in terms of size, shape, and edges. I understand that though zoomable LED washes such as the Rogue R1X Wash can control the size of the light, there will be a softer edge around the beam relative to an ellipsoidal. I'm not particularly concerned about that for our use-case.
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The reason I've kept this thread going and asked again is that a vendor I was courting said that a pastor lit by zoomable LED movers instead of ellipsoidals would look awful on camera and awful in person in terms of quality of light, not shape of light. Wouldn't that come down to color temperature, more-or-less known as it can be set, and CRI, an unknown for fixtures like the R1X Wash?
The only question I'm still unsure of: is there something magical about the light from an ellipsoidal, and if so, is it due to the CRI? And if not, understanding shape of light, is it reasonable to light the pastor with movable, zoomable washes, freeing up 15% of our fixture budget for greater room engagement?
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The early cheap LEDs definitely have given the LED a bad rep as far a light quality.
This is why I never recommend cheap fixtures if skin tone or video is an issue.
I did an event several years in a row and each time I upgraded the lights, the pro photographer was happier than the previous year.
Having amber and white helps. The latest thing is lime.
Most fixtures nowadays have a high enough PWM frequency that video isn't a problem anymore.
About framing, multi element LEDs are basically not shapeable. Each element causes its own beam and shadows. This is where the elipsoidals and fixtures like the Colorado Solo come in. With a single, collimated light source, you can frame the beam.
In an install of Colorado Solos, I cut some cardboard windows and mounted them in the gel frames to block the front and side of the stage, as well as the ceiling. With the fixture zoomed in, it missed the window and gave a nice soft spot, but with it zoomed to a wash, it framed the stage perfectly.
As to dark stages and audience, I likee. Your eye will always be drawn to the brightest element. The impact of lighting is a visceral thing and when done well is like well done sound; not apparent. It just enhances the emotion of the 'performance'.
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Thanks, Dave!
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Thanks to everyone for your consideration and response.
The reason I've kept this thread going and asked again is that a vendor I was courting said that a pastor lit by zoomable LED movers instead of ellipsoidals would look awful on camera and awful in person in terms of quality of light, not shape of light. Wouldn't that come down to color temperature, more-or-less known as it can be set, and CRI, an unknown for fixtures like the R1X Wash?
CRI is what you should be mostly concerned with. Then a close second is the olor temp of the fixtures. The ultimate color temp doesn't matter, but don't mix different fixtures of different temperatures.
I chose the Warm White fixtures (3000K) because it matches our house lighting, and I think it looks better "in person". The cameras don't care what color the light is as long as it's all the same and of a high CRI value. Neutral white or cool white looks a little more rock and roll in person if you want to go that route. CW looks awesome in haze.
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I don't view my design as a gamble: it's a lot better suited for our space and what we do than the three designs I've received from vendors that don't charge.
Just out of curiosity, what was it that you didn't like about the three designs that you were offered? What were the qualifications of those doing the work...especially if doing it for free? Did they visit your venue, listen to your needs, and offer realistic solutions?
I don't have any confusion on the roles of fresnels and ellipsoidals in terms of size, shape, and edges. I understand that though zoomable LED washes such as the Rogue R1X Wash can control the size of the light, there will be a softer edge around the beam relative to an ellipsoidal. I'm not particularly concerned about that for our use-case.
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The reason I've kept this thread going and asked again is that a vendor I was courting said that a pastor lit by zoomable LED movers instead of ellipsoidals would look awful on camera and awful in person in terms of quality of light, not shape of light. Wouldn't that come down to color temperature, more-or-less known as it can be set, and CRI, an unknown for fixtures like the R1X Wash?
The only question I'm still unsure of: is there something magical about the light from an ellipsoidal, and if so, is it due to the CRI? And if not, understanding shape of light, is it reasonable to light the pastor with movable, zoomable washes, freeing up 15% of our fixture budget for greater room engagement?
The answer, once again, is beam control. Tim gave a great example of spill control where edges and framing are a concern. Another is when I want to call attention to a very specific area of the stage. In addition to Tim's example, I can easily light a 3x3' set piece on the stage from 100ft away without any spill. A Par will never give you that level of control. Additionally, ellipsoidals have a very even beam. A properly adjusted fixture will have no hot spots. LED Pars - no way. Aside from units that blur the line such as the Elation Fuze or Chauvet COLORado Solo series, LED Pars - moving or not - will not offer an even field of light nor are they always uniform in color (i.e. fringing). CRI is a product of the unit's light engine, whereas the properties of the beam itself is a function of optics. Being poor in either category will result in an undesirable product that looks unnatural both in person and on camera.
Have you tried to demo any of these fixtures? I would think that a demo would be mandatory to see how the fixtures look (and sound) in your venue before making such a purchase. See which ones look best on camera. Yes, you can absolutely light someone with moving lights - I do it all the time - but using the wrong fixture for the task won't do you any favors. There's much more to lighting design than just knowing how to program the board (and in fact many designers have a dedicated technician for that task). I think you would benefit tremendously from demoing or renting a few different fixture types - including a high-quality LED ellipsoidal - to compare in your own space. Hope this helps!
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I just did the conversion and 10' is about 3 meters. Honestly that is 2 ellipsoids and a back/down light from any reasonable trim height. Just get the correct lens.
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Apologies for straying from the thread's topic:
Jeff, regarding the quotes, I've had two-onsite visits so far and have communicated with three more vendors that didn't visit. Interestingly, it's the larger local installers that don't want to visit, are willing to generate designs for free, and do not offer much if any discount on pricing.
The issues I've run into just come down to a lack of atunement to our needs. A few examples:
- Reliability for singer-spot movers is important, but they underspec on brand and brightness
- Recommendations for underpowered fixtures for wash movers with dim head effects that wouldn't be useful or even visible to the audience
- Confusing projecting effects, like the Maverick Pyxis, with LED-backlit plastic, like the Blizzard Wink
- Significantly over-speccing for minimal fixtures, like drum cage pars, even jumping two tiers of brands compared to the rest of the quote
- Speccing zooming fixed lights where we don't need to zoom and can't afford to spring for the upgrade
- Our current bar lights are plenty bright: I got a recommendation for bar lights that are 4x brighter than what we have, when a bar light half the cost is still 2x brighter than what we have and can do two more colors than the more expensive one
I know what we have now, how I and my other LDs use them, which fixtures and placements create the biggest wow-factor for the size/price, which fixtures are barely worth including in my programming, and where the current lighting system's weak-spots are: poor room engagement and a severe lack of effects.
With this in mind, creating a design (inspired by the current system's design, which fits the venue's needs better than most systems in most venues I've used) was easy and fun. The biggest challenge was getting a handle on which low/mid priced brands are okay and which aren't, and getting answers to a few specific questions, like in this thread. (Thanks, everyone!)
Designing the new system myself, ordering fixtures at the best price, and paying a local company I trust to rig and install for a reasonable price will provide us a mid-brand-name system with twice the room engagement, twice the brightness, wider color palettes to work with, and loads more effects and choices to make each song look different. All at a price 25-40% cheaper than the pro firms and their designers have been offering to provide.
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Additionally, ellipsoidals have a very even beam. A properly adjusted fixture will have no hot spots. LED Pars - no way. Aside from units that blur the line such as the Elation Fuze or Chauvet COLORado Solo series, LED Pars - moving or not - will not offer an even field of light nor are they always uniform in color (i.e. fringing). CRI is a product of the unit's light engine, whereas the properties of the beam itself is a function of optics. Being poor in either category will result in an undesirable product that looks unnatural both in person and on camera.
Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for!