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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Frank Sesso on December 26, 2012, 10:29:29 PM
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Hello all!
My son is currently playing local small clubs (max 300 people) in a live band (2 guitars, bass, keys, drummer and singer with two of the musicians singing backup) and I was interested in getting him a quality live mixer to go with his current setup:
2 QSC KW 153's
2 QSC KW 181 subs
4 electro voice elx112 p monitors
He's miking all the cabs and the drums.
He's currently been using a mix wiz (borrowing it) or his own Mackie ProFX22 but I'd like to upgrade/expand what he's using. I don't mind spending some money (up to $2000 - I can go higher if something is close in price at a much better quality) but I want to make sure that what I'm getting him is something that's flexible, reliable and easy to utilize.
I would really appreciate any recommendations!
Thanks so much!
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Quality and $2k max? MixWiz, which you already have. To go higher, you're looking at M200i, or Midas Pro1, or an A&H GLD, all of which are over $2k.
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Quality and $2k max? MixWiz, which you already have. To go higher, you're looking at M200i, or Midas Pro1, or an A&H GLD, all of which are over $2k.
Used Presonus 24.4.2 or an X32. I would never recommend a Mixwiz with all the trouble I have had with them over the past year.
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Used Presonus 24.4.2 or an X32. I would never recommend a Mixwiz with all the trouble I have had with them over the past year.
+1 on the Studiolive or perhaps a 01V96
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I would recommend your attention to the Soundcraft LX7ii-24.
With your budget you have enough to buy a new one plus a nice road case for it.
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And if analog is fine then you can have the best sounding, most flexible, best built small format mixer on the planet for about $2500.
http://apb-dynasonics.com/products/Products_ProRackHouse.html
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Hello all!
My son is currently playing local small clubs (max 300 people) in a live band (2 guitars, bass, keys, drummer and singer with two of the musicians singing backup) and I was interested in getting him a quality live mixer to go with his current setup:
2 QSC KW 153's
2 QSC KW 181 subs
4 electro voice elx112 p monitors
He's miking all the cabs and the drums.
He's currently been using a mix wiz (borrowing it) or his own Mackie ProFX22 but I'd like to upgrade/expand what he's using. I don't mind spending some money (up to $2000 - I can go higher if something is close in price at a much better quality) but I want to make sure that what I'm getting him is something that's flexible, reliable and easy to utilize.
I would really appreciate any recommendations!
Thanks so much!
Frank,
I would go with a Behringer X32 or a Presonus StudioLive. If you already have analog outboard gear and wish to stay with an analog console the APB Dynasonics ProRack House is fantastic. To me it sounds better than the Midas Venice 320 and Midas Venice F32. And yes, I currently own all three of these consoles.
JP
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Frank,
I would go with a Behringer X32 or a Presonus StudioLive. If you already have analog outboard gear and wish to stay with an analog console the APB Dynasonics ProRack House is fantastic. To me it sounds better than the Midas Venice 320 and Midas Venice F32. And yes, I currently own all three of these consoles.
JP
I had a GC manager suggest the Behringer to us tonight - I'm aware of Behringer's not so stellar reputation with past consoles and also those who have complained about the Presonus. Decisions, decisions, decisions! :)
I appreciate all of the intelligence and experience of those of you on the board - I'm definitely a novice in the field and trying my best to get my son some decent and reliable equipment to work with!
The QSC's have been great and the EV 112xp's were so inexpensive we couldn't pass them up! (Musician's Friend had them for $448 WITH a cover and we got 15% off and a rebate on the cover so they came in at A LOT cheaper than the $599 asking price everywhere we found them! He's just using them as monitors so we figured he really can't lose with these!)
Thanks again everyone for your comments and suggestions!
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I had a GC manager suggest the Behringer to us tonight - I'm aware of Behringer's not so stellar reputation with past consoles and also those who have complained about the Presonus. Decisions, decisions, decisions! :)
I appreciate all of the intelligence and experience of those of you on the board - I'm definitely a novice in the field and trying my best to get my son some decent and reliable equipment to work with!
The QSC's have been great and the EV 112xp's were so inexpensive we couldn't pass them up! (Musician's Friend had them for $448 WITH a cover and we got 15% off and a rebate on the cover so they came in at A LOT cheaper than the $599 asking price everywhere we found them! He's just using them as monitors so we figured he really can't lose with these!)
Thanks again everyone for your comments and suggestions!
I've had behringer gear out last my most expensive gear. I put the behringer gear through hell. I would opt for the behringer x32, 5 year warranty, for 2k you cant go wrong.
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I had a GC manager suggest the Behringer to us tonight - I'm aware of Behringer's not so stellar reputation with past consoles and also those who have complained about the Presonus. Decisions, decisions, decisions! :)
I appreciate all of the intelligence and experience of those of you on the board - I'm definitely a novice in the field and trying my best to get my son some decent and reliable equipment to work with!
The QSC's have been great and the EV 112xp's were so inexpensive we couldn't pass them up! (Musician's Friend had them for $448 WITH a cover and we got 15% off and a rebate on the cover so they came in at A LOT cheaper than the $599 asking price everywhere we found them! He's just using them as monitors so we figured he really can't lose with these!)
Thanks again everyone for your comments and suggestions!
There are MANY places you can get a far better price than Guitar Center btw...
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There are MANY places you can get a far better price than Guitar Center btw...
We just visit there so we can touch and try some equipment - :) - and purchase the occasional cable in a pinch.
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I've had behringer gear out last my most expensive gear. I put the behringer gear through hell. I would opt for the behringer x32, 5 year warranty, for 2k you cant go wrong.
I don't expect Behringer reliability to be significantly better or worse than other value products.
If your personal experience is that it outlasts your "most expensive" gear, i suggest you stop buying that (those?) other brand(s).
In the spirit of sharing useful experience with other forum members (what this forum is all about) what were those other inferior products you paid so much for?
JR
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I'd probably go for the mackie DL1608 for you setup. It will be more than you need, and I suspect that "quality" isn't what you're after so much as it's "flexibility". The DL will have all the eq, comps, gates, and FX you need for a band this size. Plus you can leave it on stage and walk out front with the ipad to mix, which saves you the money on a snake.
Other than that, it's hard to beat what you already have for quality under 2000 dollars. Soundcraft makes the GB2r which is a nice little desk, but honestly any analog desk will be a sideways move at best.
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I don't expect Behringer reliability to be significantly better or worse than other value products.
If your personal experience is that it outlasts your "most expensive" gear, i suggest you stop buying that (those?) other brand(s).
In the spirit of sharing useful experience with other forum members (what this forum is all about) what were those other inferior products you paid so much for?
JR
Crest CC amp, Crest CA amp, by no means will I stop buying crest amps, for one the name sells, 2 I know that amps fail for various reasons. Now if everyone of my crest amps would have failed would I buy them? nope.
What I was getting to was what may be buzz on the internet isnt always whats going on.
More people will complain about behringer gear because there are more people buying it, bigger market, also a market where a less knowledgeable user is at the steering wheel. If you would of read his post you would of understand why I posted my results.
also if I didnt delete what I was replying to it would have also made more sense.
I had a GC manager suggest the Behringer to us tonight - I'm aware of Behringer's not so stellar reputation with past consoles and also those who have complained about the Presonus. Decisions, decisions, decisions! :)
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So from the jest of the thread I should be led to understand that the OP MUST have a digital board and it should be either an X32 or Presonus SL. On top of that purchasing any analog board is a sideways step at best.
The OP's son has been borrowing a Mixwiz, which can be defined as the nicest low budget entry level first mixer most people new to sound buy. When the world was mostly analog it was "Buy a Mixwiz". Now that digital has come around to a lower price point it's "Buy an X32, or Buy a Presonus." Guess what? Almost anything analog costing over $1500 will have better sound and more features than a Mixwiz. So why the need to make an immidiate step to a $2500 plus entry level digital board, OR high end low channel count analog board of Midas or APB quality?
OP, please take some time to stop and smell the roses. There are a large number of solutions available that have been overlooked. A logical next step up for you and the band could be another rack mount or larger small channel count board with better and more features. In that sense you could start your quest by looking at a Mackie 1640i, Mixwiz 3 14:4, GL2400-24, Midas Venice F16R, Soundcraft LX7ii 24, GB4-24, and still have some money left for a case, cables and all the other crap you'll eventually want.
OR, You could spend $2000 and buy a Presonus 16.4.2, OR, you could spend $3000 for an X32.
Of course if you go the analog route you'll probably buy an EQ and eventually some additional outboard gear, but that won't be a problem either. If you act quickly you'll find plenty of good quality analog outboard gear available from people who buy entry level digital boards. But you need to act quickly because sooner or later the prices will rise once it's realized those folks should have held on to some of that gear.
At any rate, please take the time to make this next step a cost effective and logical step within the limits of your budget.
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My son is currently playing local small clubs (max 300 people) in a live band (2 guitars, bass, keys, drummer and singer with two of the musicians singing backup) and I was interested in getting him a quality live mixer to go with his current setup:
2 QSC KW 153's
2 QSC KW 181 subs
4 electro voice elx112 p monitors
He's miking all the cabs and the drums.
He's currently been using a mix wiz (borrowing it) or his own Mackie ProFX22 but I'd like to upgrade/expand what he's using. I don't mind spending some money (up to $2000 - I can go higher if something is close in price at a much better quality) but I want to make sure that what I'm getting him is something that's flexible, reliable and easy to utilize.
You say your son is playing in a band and is miking everything in 300 person clubs. How many inputs do you actually need? Who is running the mixer and what is their experience mixing? Where is the mix location? Do they currently have any system processing? Does you son plan to continue down this path where considering how a mixer may fit into longer term plans makes sense?
Basically, a new console may be nice but will they be able to use it effectively and is that the most effective upgrade to consider?
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Frank....
What (if any) digital doohickeys do the kids have that might play into going digital? I'm talking iPads/iPhones etc which run apps that allow control of digital mixer functions, either full mix or individual monitors. You may want to consider how what you get will allow them to use some of the technology they may already have, stuff which is becoming ubiquitous among the younger set.
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If analog is on the table I recommend the Yamaha MG32/14fx. I've used this mixer for the last 5 years running 50-80 shows a year and traveling thousands of miles. Never has as much as a sneeze out of one. 24 full inputs plus 4 additional stereo inputs, 4 full time aux sends plus 2 digital effects processors built in. Can be easily had for less than 2k with a road case and if you're interested I've got one I just pulled off the road for 800+shipping (no case). btw, this console is actually only about a year old. I sold my console and repurchased the same model every year for 5 years. I liked it that much.
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If analog is on the table I recommend the Yamaha MG32/14fx. I've used this mixer for the last 5 years running 50-80 shows a year and traveling thousands of miles. Never has as much as a sneeze out of one. 24 full inputs plus 4 additional stereo inputs, 4 full time aux sends plus 2 digital effects processors built in. Can be easily had for less than 2k with a road case and if you're interested I've got one I just pulled off the road for 800+shipping (no case). btw, this console is actually only about a year old. I sold my console and repurchased the same model every year for 5 years. I liked it that much.
No. Just no.
They've already got the use of a MixWiz which is sonically better than the MG series.
I've had to suffer through "helping" people who made the unfortunate choice of buying an MG.
Dull, lifeless and drab are the adjectives which come to mind. The amount of compensation needed to try to reconstitute some natural sound on an MG is just ridiculous. Arguably one of the worst lines of gear EVER foisted on the public.
Other than that, they're sturdy........
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No. Just no.
They've already got the use of a MixWiz which is sonically better than the MG series.
I've had to suffer through "helping" people who made the unfortunate choice of buying an MG.
Dull, lifeless and drab are the adjectives which come to mind. The amount of compensation needed to try to reconstitute some natural sound on an MG is just ridiculous. Arguably one of the worst lines of gear EVER foisted on the public.
Other than that, they're sturdy........
Likely the most worthless channel eq ever built into a board.
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Crest CC amp, Crest CA amp, by no means will I stop buying crest amps, for one the name sells, 2 I know that amps fail for various reasons. Now if everyone of my crest amps would have failed would I buy them? nope.
What I was getting to was what may be buzz on the internet isnt always whats going on.
More people will complain about behringer gear because there are more people buying it, bigger market, also a market where a less knowledgeable user is at the steering wheel. If you would of read his post you would of understand why I posted my results.
also if I didnt delete what I was replying to it would have also made more sense.
Yup, I don't know the CC amps but there were a issues with a few models in the CA series. I recall when I went up to Crest to help kick the tires before Peavey bought Crest, there were pallets of CA amps sitting around waiting for rework or whatever..
While Crest has a good rep for their amps, sh__ happens (at least for the CA).
Behringer appears to be making an honest effort to clean up their act, but have their own rouges list of old SKUs with issues. So far the X32 seems to be doing OK, but is still relatively new.
I don't have a good suggestion for the OP, lots of choices.
JR
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If analog is on the table I recommend the Yamaha MG32/14fx. I've used this mixer for the last 5 years running 50-80 shows a year and traveling thousands of miles. Never has as much as a sneeze out of one. 24 full inputs plus 4 additional stereo inputs, 4 full time aux sends plus 2 digital effects processors built in. Can be easily had for less than 2k with a road case and if you're interested I've got one I just pulled off the road for 800+shipping (no case). btw, this console is actually only about a year old. I sold my console and repurchased the same model every year for 5 years. I liked it that much.
Yuck. This is a horrid piece of excrement, possibly the wost small mixer Yamaha ever made. Our local PAC has 2 of them; the stagehands that use them often will find the half-working Soundcraft Venue II in the basement and use it before taking an MG from the locker.
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If you're looking to step up from a MixWiz, in the analog world the better choices seem to be:
1. A&H GL2400 - not a huge step up sonically, but you get nice things like polarity reverse on each channel. Twice the cost of the Wiz.
2. APB ProRack House - huge step sonically. This is a "big boy" desk in "little boy" clothes. Three times the cost of the Wiz.
In the digital world:
1. SL24 - nice enough to work on, but I've found the EQs a bit unresponsive for my tastes. Three + times the cost of the Wiz.
2. X32 - I liked it enough to buy one. Very flexible, and easy to dial up some good sounds. Three times the cost of the Wiz.
You should be able to get a nice sounding mix from any of these (including the MixWiz). It really depends on what you think the Wiz is lacking for your particular application. For portability, the APB is the only one of these that fits in a standard rack.
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You say your son is playing in a band and is miking everything in 300 person clubs. How many inputs do you actually need? Who is running the mixer and what is their experience mixing? Where is the mix location? Do they currently have any system processing? Does you son plan to continue down this path where considering how a mixer may fit into longer term plans makes sense?
Casically, a new console may be nice but will they be able to use it effectively and is that the most effective upgrade to consider?
He'd love to have 24 inputs and who is running the mixer depends on which one of his friends is available...they actually are fairly accomplished for being so young (they've been playing live for years at a variety of events).....the mix location is at the back of the crowd (he has a 100 foot snake)....plans are for him to attend Belmont University in the fall to study Audio Engineering - I've contemplated waiting until then to purchase for a number of reasons:
- curious to see what other students have to complement his equipment
- wondering what he can pick up locally in terms of used, quality equipment
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Frank....
What (if any) digital doohickeys do the kids have that might play into going digital? I'm talking iPads/iPhones etc which run apps that allow control of digital mixer functions, either full mix or individual monitors. You may want to consider how what you get will allow them to use some of the technology they may already have, stuff which is becoming ubiquitous among the younger set.
they have ipads and iphones...thanks for the advice!
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they have ipads and iphones...thanks for the advice!
Mackie DL 1608. They could each dial in their own mix. Loving this mixer the more I use it.
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Lack of subgroups or pre-processing sends kills the Mackie for many applications IMHO. Not to mention apple's new connector that made it instantly a legacy product.
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Not to mention apple's new connector that made it instantly a legacy product.
Apple still sells iPads with the 30 pin dock connector, just not the Retina display model or the Mini. All products become legacy as some point, there are 10s of millions of iPads out there that will work just fine with the DL-1608.
Mac
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Apple still sells iPads with the 30 pin dock connector, just not the Retina display model or the Mini. All products become legacy as some point, there are 10s of millions of iPads out there that will work just fine with the DL-1608.
Mac
That is a good point. I wouldn't be terribly concerned if I had one, but I'd prefer not to buy in when it is already legacy.
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mackie dl1680
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mackie dl1680
They're using a 16 channel mixer at the moment and by my count they're about maxxed out. A 24 will probably do them fine and give them a bit of flex. Plust when you get over 16 channels you get sub-groups, the ability to select pre- or post- dynamic processing to the aux monitors (obviating the need to split inputs and burn channels) and sufficient auxes to do stereo IEM's for four or five musicians.
As such, the 1680 is more of a sideways step with a higher "gee-whiz" factor, but not really more functionality. Plus you're dependent on an iPad........not a situation I'd want to be in.
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OK, I recommended the DL1608 before, but knowing that the kid is going to belmont, I'd like to change my vote to the Yamaha 01v96. This mixer will expand out to 40 channels, yet it still fits in a rack.
The reason I think it might work for him is that the 01v is absolutely not a toy-like beginner's mixer. It will do just about everything the high dollar big boy mixers will do. Although it starts off pretty humble with 12 channels, you can expand it whenever the need arises, and your wallet allows. You can put high-end preamps on it, remote control it, midi control it, paint it yellow and call it Susie, or whatever. It is extremely flexible. Just search around at what some people are doing with this rig and you'll be surprised....
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So from the jest of the thread I should be led to understand that the OP MUST have a digital board and it should be either an X32 or Presonus SL. On top of that purchasing any analog board is a sideways step at best.
The OP's son has been borrowing a Mixwiz, which can be defined as the nicest low budget entry level first mixer most people new to sound buy. When the world was mostly analog it was "Buy a Mixwiz". Now that digital has come around to a lower price point it's "Buy an X32, or Buy a Presonus." Guess what? Almost anything analog costing over $1500 will have better sound and more features than a Mixwiz. So why the need to make an immidiate step to a $2500 plus entry level digital board, OR high end low channel count analog board of Midas or APB quality?
OP, please take some time to stop and smell the roses. There are a large number of solutions available that have been overlooked. A logical next step up for you and the band could be another rack mount or larger small channel count board with better and more features. In that sense you could start your quest by looking at a Mackie 1640i, Mixwiz 3 14:4, GL2400-24, Midas Venice F16R, Soundcraft LX7ii 24, GB4-24, and still have some money left for a case, cables and all the other crap you'll eventually want.
OR, You could spend $2000 and buy a Presonus 16.4.2, OR, you could spend $3000 for an X32.
Of course if you go the analog route you'll probably buy an EQ and eventually some additional outboard gear, but that won't be a problem either. If you act quickly you'll find plenty of good quality analog outboard gear available from people who buy entry level digital boards. But you need to act quickly because sooner or later the prices will rise once it's realized those folks should have held on to some of that gear.
At any rate, please take the time to make this next step a cost effective and logical step within the limits of your budget.
you can get x32 for same price as 16.4.2
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OK, I recommended the DL1608 before, but knowing that the kid is going to belmont, I'd like to change my vote to the Yamaha 01v96. This mixer will expand out to 40 channels, yet it still fits in a rack.
The reason I think it might work for him is that the 01v is absolutely not a toy-like beginner's mixer. It will do just about everything the high dollar big boy mixers will do. Although it starts off pretty humble with 12 channels, you can expand it whenever the need arises, and your wallet allows. You can put high-end preamps on it, remote control it, midi control it, paint it yellow and call it Susie, or whatever. It is extremely flexible. Just search around at what some people are doing with this rig and you'll be surprised....
01v96 is not a walk up to a mix board. I owned it, I was the only one that knew how to run it.
Simple solution is link another mixwiz with what he has.
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you can get x32 for same price as 16.4.2
Nope. At least not at Sweetwater (a randomly selected on-line retailer):
x32 goes for $2999
16:4:2 goes for $1999
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Nope. At least not at Sweetwater (a randomly selected on-line retailer):
x32 goes for $2999
16:4:2 goes for $1999
I hope you shop around better when you buy gear..
Dear Gear Shopper,
Thanks for submitting a LOWEST PRICE request for the following item:
* Behringer X32 Digital Mixer, 32-Channel - New
The lowest price for this item we were able to verify at our competitor is (hiding prices so I dont get anymore emails) with free shipping. This includes any applicable discounts.
We are happy to say we can beat this price with our LOWEST PRICE offer of (hiding prices so i dont get anymore emails) with FREE shipping.
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I would agree with Tim's suggestion of the 01v96 as the lowest initial cost, smallest footprint, most expandable and highest functioning digital entry desk.
Edit:
Names changed to protect the innocent......
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Mackie DL 1608. They could each dial in their own mix. Loving this mixer the more I use it.
However, not if they want 24 inputs nor is it at least currently ideal for monitors since all sends are post the channel processing.
If they have no external channel or system processing and would be able to use such functionality effectively then a digital console could be a good value, but at the present time anything more than 16 channels will probably require bumping up the budget.
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I usually do. The point is that the x32 is not at the same price point as the 16:4:2. When I bought mine (16 channel Presonus) I did a bit of shopping and got it for just under $1600. That's still cheaper than whoever's knocking off the B***** stuff for cheap.
That said, I would agree with Tim's suggestion of the 01v96 as the lowest initial cost, smallest footprint, most expandable and highest functioning digital entry desk.
That was a 5 min search and I got it that low, I am sure I can get it for less if I actually talk to someone. regardless I agree that the 01v96 is a quality board, If I had a choice I would still be using it. But it does take time to learn.
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You guys are so much help! I truly appreciate it! The Yamaha has me intrigued...the Behringer and Presonus are the two I've looked at the most closely. :)
Hopefully I won't get any negative remarks about having my kid attend Belmont - Lol. We loved the school when we visited it and Nashville is amazing! I'm just trying to help him fulfill his dreams of being involved in music on a serious level while he is also working on his degreel! ;D
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01v96 is not a walk up to a mix board. I owned it, I was the only one that knew how to run it.
Simple solution is link another mixwiz with what he has.
Exactly why I suggest the 01v96. It is a real console and not a beginner/garage band desk. If this kid is going to go to Belmont to study engineering then he will have to sell most of these desks as soon as he gets past mixing 101. Why not start him out with something that he can grow with and will do the job even after he graduates.
For me that means the 01v96 or the X32. And since the X32 has not proven it's reliability yet, I would lean towards the Yamaha. Not to mention the Yamaha will be a great user interface for any recording software he might be using in school. It will also support multiple, very popular digital protocols via the mini-ygdai slot.
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You guys are so much help! I truly appreciate it! The Yamaha has me intrigued...the Behringer and Presonus are the two I've looked at the most closely. :)
Hopefully I won't get any negative remarks about having my kid attend Belmont - Lol. We loved the school when we visited it and Nashville is amazing! I'm just trying to help him fulfill his dreams of being involved in music on a serious level while he is also working on his degreel! ;D
+1 for the 01V96 in terms of flexibility and reliability. These have been around for a long time, are built very well, and are extremely flexible. I do a lot of different kinds of events and I can always program this board to do what I want. Add a Behringer ADA8000 for 8 more channels to start with 20 mic preamps. Decent preamps at an outstanding price.
The 01V96 consoles do have a learning curve, they're not something you walk up to and use unless you are only changing volumes. You can actually spend 100s of hours on the board and still be discovering new features and new ways to do things, which is not entirely bad if your son plans to do this for a living and has the patience and likes to learn.
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The reason I think it might work for him is that the 01v is absolutely not a toy-like beginner's mixer.
The X32 is definitely not a toy. I'll admit it was extremely hard to get past the name on it, but this thing is the real deal - matching or surpassing feature sets on $10k desks. That said, the 01v deserves consideration. Personally, I found the X32 to be superior.
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Hello all!
My son is currently playing local small clubs (max 300 people) in a live band (2 guitars, bass, keys, drummer and singer with two of the musicians singing backup) and I was interested in getting him a quality live mixer to go with his current setup:
2 QSC KW 153's
2 QSC KW 181 subs
4 electro voice elx112 p monitors
He's miking all the cabs and the drums.
He's currently been using a mix wiz (borrowing it) or his own Mackie ProFX22 but I'd like to upgrade/expand what he's using. I don't mind spending some money (up to $2000 - I can go higher if something is close in price at a much better quality) but I want to make sure that what I'm getting him is something that's flexible, reliable and easy to utilize.
I would really appreciate any recommendations!
Thanks so much!
If the borrowed MixWiz is working, just get your son his own Mixwiz.
My son's rock band (similar instrumentation to your son's) uses my MixWix 3 16/2 and is perfectly happy.
It does everything he needs it to do.
He also uses two DBX 2231 EQ's (4 monitor mixes available)
I just purchased a second similar unit from GC (online for $799.00 during the day-after Christmas sale) for my use going forward. I have had my MixWiz for the past 6 years and it has been bullet-proof while being easy to use.
My suggestion: go with the Mixwiz and spend the remaining $ on upgrading your son's instrument, instrument case, vocal mic, etc. or get him some additional lessons so that he can become a better musician.
just MHO..
Mike M
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He'd love to have 24 inputs and who is running the mixer depends on which one of his friends is available...
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On this alone I would stick with an analog board. Much more simple to run. I really wanted to buy a Presonus 16.4.2 but after watching a band doing its own sound trying to solve feedback issues with little success, i decided to keep it simple. I got a MixWiz 16:2 and never looked back.
With some direction i can get friends to do sound in a pinch, our regular guy does a great job, and when I have to run it from stage its still easy for me to play drums one handed while I grab an eq slider. I am much better at ring out than when I first started, and have only had feedback issues a couple of times.
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On this alone I would stick with an analog board. Much more simple to run. I really wanted to buy a Presonus 16.4.2 but after watching a band doing its own sound trying to solve feedback issues with little success, i decided to keep it simple. I got a MixWiz 16:2 and never looked back.
Sorry, Joe, but none of the above info really says anything valid without context and more detail. "Simple to run" is pretty nebulous, depending on the task to be accomplished, the experience of the user(s), the setting, etc.. And could the "band doing its own sound" tech their way out of a wet paper bag in the first place? Why should you base your purchases on the ability of a random band with no sound man and why should we give credence to an opinion formed on an apparently single instance involving musicians in a DIY situation?
I use both the StudioLive and the MixWizard, carrying the Wiz as a backup console. If you can mix competently on the A & H, you can (usually within 15 minutes) find your way around a "digi-logue" desk like an SLive.
The only significant difference between the two consoles is the dbfs metering on the channels of the SLive. Otherwise they are pretty much functionally interchangeable.
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could the "band doing its own sound" tech their way out of a wet paper bag in the first place?
I use both the StudioLive and the MixWizard, carrying the Wiz as a backup console.
They could on the MixWiz they used to use.
If you can mix competently on the A & H, you can (usually within 15 minutes) find your way around a "digi-logue" desk like an SLive.
Can the OP's buddies? That is the real question.
The only significant difference between the two consoles is the dbfs metering on the channels of the SLive. Otherwise they are pretty much functionally interchangeable.
If there is no real signifigant difference, they why bother with a digital board?
My real question to the OP is who will be running the "upgraded board"? If the OP's child is going to be a musician and have someone doing his sound, the uniform answer on the board here is hire someone. If everyone and his dog will be doing the sound, why bother complicating an already complicated sitiation.
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Sorry, Joe, but none of the above info really says anything valid without context and more detail. "Simple to run" is pretty nebulous, depending on the task to be accomplished, the experience of the user(s), the setting, etc.. And could the "band doing its own sound" tech their way out of a wet paper bag in the first place? Why should you base your purchases on the ability of a random band with no sound man and why should we give credence to an opinion formed on an apparently single instance involving musicians in a DIY situation?
I use both the StudioLive and the MixWizard, carrying the Wiz as a backup console. If you can mix competently on the A & H, you can (usually within 15 minutes) find your way around a "digi-logue" desk like an SLive.
The only significant difference between the two consoles is the dbfs metering on the channels of the SLive. Otherwise they are pretty much functionally interchangeable.
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They could on the MixWiz they used to use.
Can the OP's buddies? That is the real question.
If there is no real signifigant difference, they why bother with a digital board?
My real question to the OP is who will be running the "upgraded board"? If the OP's child is going to be a musician and have someone doing his sound, the uniform answer on the board here is hire someone. If everyone and his dog will be doing the sound, why bother complicating an already complicated sitiation.
Joe....
It is illogical to assume that simply substituting their MixWiz would have solved their feedback problem. You cannot make such a statement. There are simply too many factors to focus blame on any one thing.
Your implied criticism is specious at best.
On....and it's "situation", not "sitiation".
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On....and it's "situation", not "sitiation".
Thanks for pointing out my typo. Classy.
While we are at it... it's Oh, not on... :-*
The error in mixing that was causing feedback was not being able to remember how to run the board. It was new gear to the crew. That is the point I am making. They moved to the digital board because it was "better" but did not practice with it enough before getting out in front of a crowd with it. In conversation after the fact, the guy running the board "got lost". From what the OP has stated in previous posts his childs friends have been mixing for his child. That leads me to believe they are used to the gear, and are already running it “successfully” and my suggestion is a digi board may complicate things. Thats all...
I agree that simply substituting a MixWiz for a Digi board of any variety would have cured the feedback that night. Being able to use the gear in front of you is. My suggestion is the digital board may be above the heads of the people being asked to run it. If that is a non issue, then spend away.
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On....and it's "situation", not "sitiation".
Thanks for pointing out my typo. Classy.
While we are at it... it's Oh, not on... :-*
The error in mixing that was causing feedback was not being able to remember how to run the board. It was new gear to the crew. That is the point I am making. They moved to the digital board because it was "better" but did not practice with it enough before getting out in front of a crowd with it. In conversation after the fact, the guy running the board "got lost". From what the OP has stated in previous posts his childs friends have been mixing for his child. That leads me to believe they are used to the gear, and are already running it “successfully” and my suggestion is a digi board may complicate things. Thats all...
I agree that simply substituting a MixWiz for a Digi board of any variety would have cured the feedback that night. Being able to use the gear in front of you is. My suggestion is the digital board may be above the heads of the people being asked to run it. If that is a non issue, then spend away.
Yup. It is a non-issue.
Was it switching from the Wiz or not having an outboard graphic that was the problem? Was the feedback in the mains, the monitors or both? Would they have been equally as lost on another, newer analog board? There's just not enough information to assign blame to any piece of gear. Obviously they didn't know what they were doing at that particular moment. That is not the fault of the gear, and I maintain that since they apparently did not cure the problem by immediately switching back to the Wiz, you cannot validly assert that doing so would have sufficed.....in spite of your assertion that they had not had the problem in the past.
If you get lost on a StudioLive, try sticking your fork in the gravy.
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If you get lost on a StudioLive, try sticking your fork in the gravy.
Haha!
Feedback was in the monitors, no outboard EQ. They ran 31 band dbx eq's with the old setup. I felt bad for them. Switching back to the old gear would have worked had the brought it with.
I think they would have been equally lost on any digi board. Again I am not blaming the gun for missing its target. More the shooter. That is my only concern for the OP. The who's who of buddies needing a lesson on how to run the board before each gig.
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Haha!
Feedback was in the monitors, no outboard EQ. They ran 31 band dbx eq's with the old setup. I felt bad for them. Switching back to the old gear would have worked had the brought it with.
I think they would have been equally lost on any digi board. Again I am not blaming the gun for missing its target. More the shooter. That is my only concern for the OP. The who's who of buddies needing a lesson on how to run the board before each gig.
OK. So we're finally agreed that it wasn't the fault of any particular board, but that they had come unprepared. Human error. Now it's time for me to confess that I ran outboard EQ's on my StudioLive until I came to trust the built-ins. I use GraphiQ's for my rigs (except for when I haul out the KT 360/410 combo for really juicy stuff) because of the precise surgical control they give.
Now that I've moved up to the 24 channel SLive with its improved channel strip EQ and SMAART, I no longer use the GraphiQ's.......but they're in the van with the Wiz in case I need backup.
Glad you like the gravy reference. That one's REALLY old......
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If your relying on the random available kid, or trusted bystander to run sound for your kids band, I would consider the transaction a little more seriously..... While I am in firm belief that anyone can pretty much walk up to the desk and provide information on how to make it sound better, I will be damned that many could actually create the magic if I walked away and said go for it : )
What I really mean is that when your going to rely on an unknown level of talent to play with your multi thousand dollar investment, you may consider usability and reliability. It takes a bit of time for even a seasoned operator to wrap their heads around a digital desk. Although there are some with the wysiwyg ( what you see is what you get ) layout, it doesn't mean that they get it...... What I have come to find is the level of accountability falls pretty short when shit hits the fan in a group situation. Who blew that speaker up; " it wasn't me ", comes to mind.
I am a huge supporter of the go digital route, but in your case you are bargaining a large investment on something that you and likely anybody else knows little on how to use it. Not that they can't be trained, or learn, but that takes time. It's how much time you can get out of a person for free that is the question? And still you are at the whim of talent. Just because they know how to get to the correct page and make an adjustment, do they know why they are making it and is it actually the right one? At least with analog it's all right in your face and you can quickly do something if stuff starts to go downhill. With most digital desks it takes at least two button pushes to get to the place you need to be. On an analog desk all you need to know is where to look.
It's definitely a moment of pride when you got your kid on stage and he's showing the girls what he's got : ) It isn't so much fun when you have a lot of problem caused by lack of knowledge on how to run the equipment, or solve issues in general. 9 out of 10 times I would say go Digital, in this case I say K.I.S.S................ Keep It Simple Stupid..... I can say that I don't know many bands that run their own sound that also sound really good. Myself included ( I'm the one doing sound ) and I actually have a good idea of whats going on. They can't hear what they need to hear other than what sounds good to them. The mix your own monitor feature is great until the MORE ME thing gets out of control. This is where a centralized guy that knows more about what is going on than the band does is a good thing. The voice of reason you might say. I feel a digital desk will impede the making it simple and easy, being actually a higher learning curve with greater pressure and confusion. Food for thought.........