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Title: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Corey Scogin on July 11, 2018, 11:49:41 PM
Anyone compared the Speakerpower plate amp against common rack amps for the TH118?
Are they lacking at all? Better? About the same?

Edit: This is for a portable, not install application.
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Caleb Dueck on July 11, 2018, 11:58:26 PM
Anyone compared the Speakerpower plate amp against common rack amps for the TH118?
Are they lacking at all? Better? About the same?
Can you define "common"?  Which settings, especially limiting?  To me, common means Danley (Linea) or Powersoft with Danley settings. 

Years ago the plate amps were weak, I don't know how much they have changed since.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Corey Scogin on July 12, 2018, 12:15:31 AM
Can you define "common"?  Which settings, especially limiting?  To me, common means Danley (Linea) or Powersoft with Danley settings. 

Years ago the plate amps were weak, I don't know how much they have changed since.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

I'm looking for a general comparison if anyone has A/B experience with the plate amps vs any rack amp.

1. Sound quality & output
2. Features: Limiting, etc

I am currently using 3 channels of a QSC PLD4.5 to drive each of my TH118s and I've found that the amps run out of gas before hitting the limiters (as expected given the voltage numbers). Potentially, picking up another PLD4.5 for 1 amp/sub or upgrading amps may help eek out that last bit of performance from them. I'm interested to know if the plate amps would be on par, better, or worse than my current setup or other potential options for rack amps.
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Ivan Beaver on July 12, 2018, 07:43:22 AM
Anyone compared the Speakerpower plate amp against common rack amps for the TH118?
Are they lacking at all? Better? About the same?
I am "old school" I prefer separate amps.  Especially for installs.
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Tommy Shannon on July 12, 2018, 08:42:17 AM
I am "old school" I prefer separate amps.  Especially for installs.

An acquaintance of mine switched to the Danley DNA amps and really likes how well they work with his TH118's. I know that's not the same as the plates, but if the goal is optimized performance and simplicity of operation that may be the way to go.
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Cailen Waddell on July 12, 2018, 09:37:44 AM
I'm looking for a general comparison if anyone has A/B experience with the plate amps vs any rack amp.

1. Sound quality & output
2. Features: Limiting, etc

I am currently using 3 channels of a QSC PLD4.5 to drive each of my TH118s and I've found that the amps run out of gas before hitting the limiters (as expected given the voltage numbers). Potentially, picking up another PLD4.5 for 1 amp/sub or upgrading amps may help eek out that last bit of performance from them. I'm interested to know if the plate amps would be on par, better, or worse than my current setup or other potential options for rack amps.

This is just one man’s opinion but I prefer separate.  We have some install boxes with the speakerpower plate amps - and while they work fine, We have had one issue with a palate amp (out of the dozen or so across various venues) in 6 years.  Removing the plate amp in the air to send it off for service was a pain, and more so, we couldn’t just drop another amp in there, had to wait for the repair.  With separate - at the very least we can throw _something_ on the speaker to muddle through.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Steve Litcher on July 12, 2018, 10:48:29 AM
This may not be apples-to-apples... but...

We have several JTR C212Pro subs that use the Speakerpower plate amps. As far as sound quality, they're great. Nothing to complain about. Plenty of power for the application as well - they hit hard and keep hitting hard no matter how much we push them.

Features? Hmm. Most of the controls are handled via DSP that is programmed by the speaker manufacturer. On the back of the amp plate, you'll find fairly minimal controls: gain, LF Adjust (to boost/reduce a fixed frequency range), delay (up to 20ms), and crossover (up to 120Hz). And that's about it. But that's the beauty of powered gear - less things for us to worry about.

The C212Pro plate amp is 1400 watts; it draws around 3-amps under load. Not sure how that compares to the TH118. I will say I've been impressed with the Speakerpower plate amps - they seem to work really well with the C212Pros.
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on July 12, 2018, 11:28:17 AM
Out of curiosity, may i ask what rms and peak settings you're using with the PLD 4.5 & TH-118 ?

I've never tried 3 channel parallel, ABC, for a sub,
but i have tried 4 channel parallel, AB+CD, on an orbitshifter and on a DIY double 18" plenum loaded.

That 4 ch mode worked great on both of those subs......(both 4 ohm)
how does it work for the TH-118?
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Corey Scogin on July 12, 2018, 07:04:16 PM
Out of curiosity, may i ask what rms and peak settings you're using with the PLD 4.5 & TH-118 ?
That 4 ch mode worked great on both of those subs......(both 4 ohm)
how does it work for the TH-118?

I'm using 71V for RMS and 101 for Peak (corresponding to the "program" capability of the sub and 3 ohm min impedance, for safety)
According to the power chart, the PLD4.5 in ABC config is only capable of 98V at 4ohm (2400W).

At an outdoor event recently, I got to a point where more fader wasn't corresponding to more sound and the limiters weren't engaging - RMS or Peak. There's a good chance that I won't gain much of anything with a larger amp or an extra PLD in ABCD mode but having the extra capability and letting the voltage peak limiter do its job I suspect will sound better than the amp hitting its max voltage.

My setup on the PLD4.5 of ABC channel config for a TH118 and D for an SM80 works quite well. I've never needed more indoors. More often, I'm not even close to the maximum capability of the system. This recent outdoor gig just got me considering options. I've worked outdoor gigs before and been happy. This one was just larger and in an amphitheater that, oddly, got thin quickly toward the back.

Also what got me thinking about this is there are some TH118 plate amps on Ebay I'm considering. (though not at the asking price btw. I know how much they are new). Not sure if the seller is on the psw forums.
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Rick Powell on July 12, 2018, 07:19:31 PM
I'm using 71V for RMS and 101 for Peak (corresponding to the "program" capability of the sub and 3 ohm min impedance, for safety)
According to the power chart, the PLD4.5 in ABC config is only capable of 98V at 4ohm (2400W).

At an outdoor event recently, I got to a point where more fader wasn't corresponding to more sound and the limiters weren't engaging - RMS or Peak. There's a good chance that I won't gain much of anything with a larger amp or an extra PLD in ABCD mode but having the extra capability and letting the voltage peak limiter do its job I suspect will sound better than the amp hitting its max voltage.

My setup on the PLD4.5 of ABC channel config for a TH118 and D for an SM80 works quite well. I've never needed more indoors. More often, I'm not even close to the maximum capability of the system. This recent outdoor gig just got me considering options. I've worked outdoor gigs before and been happy. This one was just larger and in an amphitheater that, oddly, got thin quickly toward the back.

Also what got me thinking about this is there are some TH118 plate amps on Ebay I'm considering. (though not at the asking price btw. I know how much they are new). Not sure if the seller is on the psw forums.
The plate amps on eBay are set with the correct DSP for a TH118. AFAIK the tweakable SP modules are only available to OEMs and you need the right software to set them. I’m sure their consumer model will “work” but not as well. You could get a new one thru Danley.
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Corey Scogin on July 12, 2018, 07:29:18 PM
The plate amps on eBay are set with the correct DSP for a TH118. AFAIK the tweakable SP modules are only available to OEMs and you need the right software to set them. I’m sure their consumer model will “work” but not as well. You could get a new one thru Danley.

I wasn't considering buying a consumer model from Speakerpower. I've purchased a plate amp before through Danley for another sub so I have an idea about what that price should be.
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Rick Powell on July 12, 2018, 11:58:50 PM
I wasn't considering buying a consumer model from Speakerpower. I've purchased a plate amp before through Danley for another sub so I have an idea about what that price should be.

I saw the ad too and was surprised what they are asking. I guess that’s what the “Make Offer” button is for. I have seen 2 or 3 sets of Speakerpower modules for sale, pulled out of a TH115 or TH118 in the past few years.
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Art Welter on July 13, 2018, 02:05:48 AM
I'm using 71V for RMS and 101 for Peak (corresponding to the "program" capability of the sub and 3 ohm min impedance, for safety)
According to the power chart, the PLD4.5 in ABC config is only capable of 98V at 4ohm (2400W).

At an outdoor event recently, I got to a point where more fader wasn't corresponding to more sound and the limiters weren't engaging - RMS or Peak.
Corey,

Assuming the Danley plate amp is the SP-4001, it puts out the same at four ohms as the PLD4.5 in ABC mode, 2400 watts.
Going to ABCD mode only gets 3000 watts, not worth changing things around.

I tested the SP-4001 using various drivers. It had plenty of power to fry a pair of LAB-12s, but I felt the BC-18SW115-4 still could have used another 3dB or so peak, though 2400 watts with some EDM tracks would be enough to toast it too.

Assuming DSL's revised impedance chart for the TH-118 is now correct, (no longer on the spec sheet  ::) ) it does not drop below 4 ohms with the BC-18SW115-4, the 3 ohm minimum was with an 18Sound driver that has not been used AFAIK since before 2011.
The sensitivity and frequency response of the current TH-118 spec sheet have been revised downward also, with the taller TH-118XL now appearing to be the same level at 30 Hz as the older TH-118 spec....

Art
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Corey Scogin on July 13, 2018, 11:20:24 AM
Assuming the Danley plate amp is the SP-4001, it puts out the same at four ohms as the PLD4.5 in ABC mode, 2400 watts.
Going to ABCD mode only gets 3000 watts, not worth changing things around.
The plate amp is the SP1-2400...which I think is what you meant.
According to the PLD4.5 spec on the QSC website, ABC channel config at 4ohm is rated for 2400W continuous and 2500W peak.
In AB+CD configuration, that jumps to 4200W continuous and 7500W peak. That should be a least a few DB and somewhat noticeable for kick drum punch.

Assuming DSL's revised impedance chart for the TH-118 is now correct, (no longer on the spec sheet  ::) ) it does not drop below 4 ohms with the BC-18SW115-4, the 3 ohm minimum was with an 18Sound driver that has not been used AFAIK since before 2011.
The sensitivity and frequency response of the current TH-118 spec sheet have been revised downward also, with the taller TH-118XL now appearing to be the same level at 30 Hz as the older TH-118 spec....
I had wondered about that as well. I went looking for the minimum impedance value for the TH118 to verify my previous notes and I had to dig out an old spec sheet I saved back when I bought the TH118s around 2012/2013. @Art, where did you find the minimum impedance spec? If @Ivan is paying attention, I wouldn't mind a brief explanation about the spec revision...what was the reason for the change? the new driver? Given that the minimum impedance is often used for voltage limiter calculations, shouldn't it be on the spec sheet?
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on July 13, 2018, 11:49:59 AM
I'm using 71V for RMS and 101 for Peak (corresponding to the "program" capability of the sub and 3 ohm min impedance, for safety)
According to the power chart, the PLD4.5 in ABC config is only capable of 98V at 4ohm (2400W).

At an outdoor event recently, I got to a point where more fader wasn't corresponding to more sound and the limiters weren't engaging - RMS or Peak. There's a good chance that I won't gain much of anything with a larger amp or an extra PLD in ABCD mode but having the extra capability and letting the voltage peak limiter do its job I suspect will sound better than the amp hitting its max voltage.

My setup on the PLD4.5 of ABC channel config for a TH118 and D for an SM80 works quite well. I've never needed more indoors. More often, I'm not even close to the maximum capability of the system. This recent outdoor gig just got me considering options. I've worked outdoor gigs before and been happy. This one was just larger and in an amphitheater that, oddly, got thin quickly toward the back.

Also what got me thinking about this is there are some TH118 plate amps on Ebay I'm considering. (though not at the asking price btw. I know how much they are new). Not sure if the seller is on the psw forums.

Thx Corey, your settings are right in line with what I've been using on similar power handing subs.

I'm kinda wondering about  outdoors on a bigger gig than usual, if maybe you weren't running into compression, ...and you just knew enough not to raise the slider further (without getting to 70v cont)

Because here's Danley's posted setting.... Thermal Limiter: 40 Volts, 3.0 Seconds Attack, 1.0X Release (multiplier of Attack)
Maybe Ivan will see this and comment....

I also wonder about the PLD 4.5's ability to produce peak voltage,  when channels are paralleled.
Like you say, 3 ch ABC specs 2500W peak into 4ohms, or  100v. 
4ch ABCD  peak at 3000W into 4, or 110v  (with NO increase in continuous 2400 watts!...actually a 100w decrease from 3ch to 2300 unless it's a misprint)

AB+CD, 4 channels combined in parallel/bridge specs 4200W cont into 4 ohms, and 7500W peak, or 173v.
That should get the lights going, huh ? ;)


(I know you know all these specs, I was just throwing them into the thread for others following...oops see you already did
Sorry I have nothing to add re plate amps)


Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Art Welter on July 13, 2018, 03:03:12 PM
1)The plate amp is the SP1-2400...which I think is what you meant.
2)According to the PLD4.5 spec on the QSC website, ABC channel config at 4ohm is rated for 2400W continuous and 2500W peak.
In AB+CD configuration, that jumps to 4200W continuous and 7500W peak. That should be a least a few DB and somewhat noticeable for kick drum punch.
3)I had wondered about that as well. I went looking for the minimum impedance value for the TH118 to verify my previous notes and I had to dig out an old spec sheet I saved back when I bought the TH118s around 2012/2013. @Art, where did you find the minimum impedance spec?
Corey,
1) I actually meant SP1-4000, which is rated 4000W/2 ohm, 2400W/4, 1300W/8, it weighs only 7 lbs.
2) Missed the AB+CD configuration, that should make the cones jump ;^)
3)The "old" TH-118 spec sheet (impedance chart 2/11/10, "anywhere on earth", different FR chart date) was not changed after the driver was, and had an 18Sound driver in the photo. May 17, 2018 I downloaded the spec sheet again, and noticed the impedance chart had changed- the increase in impedance between the 18Sound and BC18SW115-4 would account for the increase, but not the frequency change in peaks and dips, unless the cabinet had also changed.
Then on June 24, 2018, I downloaded the new TH-118 and TH-118XL spec sheets, which updated the frequency response and sensitivity, but no longer included impedance charts.

The "old" spec is on the left, "newer" on the right, TH-118XL separate screen shots. Note the larger "XL" now has about the same LF response as the "old", and the "new" now has less, as well as 3 dB less overall sensitivity.

Art
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Brandon Scopel on July 14, 2018, 04:22:32 PM
I was eyeballing the crest prolite 7.5 if I ever get around to buying some, with a seperate DSP since IIRC 2 of the 7.5 could be had for around the same as the pld4.5.
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: John Chiara on July 14, 2018, 05:01:35 PM
I was eyeballing the crest prolite 7.5 if I ever get around to buying some, with a seperate DSP since IIRC 2 of the 7.5 could be had for around the same as the pld4.5.
A friend has the Crests...they work.
Title: Re: Danley TH118 Plate Amps vs Rack Amps
Post by: Roch Lafleur on July 16, 2018, 03:41:31 PM
I got 4 passive TH118s a few years back. At the time, I had 2 Crown IT-6000s to power the subs. They were really happy and sounded amazing. However, I often play in smaller venues where power can be an issue. After reading up on the SpeakerPower plate amps and Langston review, I sold the Crowns and purchased 2 SP1-4000 and installed them into 2 of the 4 subs. Ivan was nice enough to provide me with detailed instructions on how to calculate the voltage in order to set the limiter in my processor.

Sometimes I wonder if I would be better with separate power amps, but I have not had an issue with the SpeakerPower plate amps. This weekend was a good reminder of how modular the system is. I had to provide sound on 2 separate stages at a local fair. I was also the bass player in both bands. So I set up one powered sub at each location. Each sub powered a second (passive) sub. Easy peasy, no heavy amps to carry and very low power draw.

My only complaint is that after a few years, the silk screen print on the amps is all about gone. But it's hard to mess up... plug in XLR, powercon, speakon to 2nd sub, turn on power switch and turn volume all the way up.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with the setup.