Post by: Sean Hayes on October 26, 2007, 11:32:58 PM
I am looking to expand my business into the video world. I want to start with a small three camera system with two projectors onto screens. I am looking for some suggestions on some sort of way of mixing the video feeds together. I want it to be able to mix a total of at least 4 feeds.(three cams and an aux input for PP or other video input.)
I have a fairly small budget for this seeing as most money will be going into getting some good cameras.
Please leave your recommendations or point me in the right direction.
Thank you
Post by: Ken Freeman on October 26, 2007, 11:50:23 PM
Ken
Post by: Sean Hayes on October 27, 2007, 12:02:45 AM
No matter how this pans out, right now I am just getting a better feel for how the video realm does things and getting to know equipment and basics of video.
Thanks for any replies or advice on how to make this idea pan out.
Post by: Ken Freeman on October 27, 2007, 12:32:44 AM
Your Switcher:
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m =10008&p=13&sp=102&id=76323
Your Cameras:
HD: http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m =10014&p=2&sp=20&id=82573
SD: http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m =10005&p=2&sp=20157&id=75153
Have fun!
Ken
Post by: Ken Freeman on October 27, 2007, 12:40:24 AM
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10008/ anycast.shtml?navid=anycast_station_live_content_producer
This is what my next generation of tech's is learning to use right now.
Ken
Post by: Sean Hayes on October 27, 2007, 01:49:31 AM
Thanks for the recommendations, however, that equipment is quite a ways out of my price range. Hopefully someday I can have a use for that kind of equipment.
I am looking for a very basic system. Two or three cameras. Any by cameras I do not mean robotic remote controlled cameras. No use for that. I am looking for cameras under $2K and a very basic video mixer. Something that I can switch between 3 or 4 video inputs. I know that this probably sounds like crap to you guys, but this is where I am at.
My clients are not asking for anything more than projection for their larger corporate events where one stationary camera and one or two roamers are needed.
Thanks again
Post by: Brad Weber on October 27, 2007, 08:39:06 AM
You mentioned an aux input from PowerPoint or "other video input". It sounds like you are potentially going to have mixed video formats including computer graphics. Is that true?
Some other questions. What form are the cameras, are they mobile or on a tripod or dolly? Do you want each camera to have the ability to be fixed or mobile? Do you need to potentially address very varying size spaces where you may have cameras at different distances from one event to another? Are you wanting to put the same image on both screens or do you want to be able to have something different on each screen? Do you have the screens and projectors? Might you need different size or types of screens and different lenses to accommodate different applications and venues? What do you plan to do for communications with the camera operators? What type of events are these, are they simpler corporate presentations or concert/multimedia type productions? Would you also be recording? All of these types of issues can affect what is required, from whether you need to provide tripods and heads to the camera requirements to the switcher to whether you need multiple lenses. And depending upon the requirements, don't forget monitors, cables, production communication, racks, etc.
In many cases it makes sense to team with a video production company until you get a better feel for what really is needed and expected, as well as what clients will pay for this capability.
Post by: Adam Whetham on October 27, 2007, 02:35:09 PM
| Sean Hayes wrote on Sat, 27 October 2007 00:49 |
Hey Ken, Thanks for the recommendations, however, that equipment is quite a ways out of my price range. Hopefully someday I can have a use for that kind of equipment. I am looking for a very basic system. Two or three cameras. Any by cameras I do not mean robotic remote controlled cameras. No use for that. I am looking for cameras under $2K and a very basic video mixer. Something that I can switch between 3 or 4 video inputs. I know that this probably sounds like crap to you guys, but this is where I am at. My clients are not asking for anything more than projection for their larger corporate events where one stationary camera and one or two roamers are needed. Thanks again |
Video is not something that you can get into that cheap.
We made the mistake of doing this also. We got a basic Panasonic Video switcher that faded between inputs, and rented camera's from the local video production company who we rented audio gear to.
Next thing you know, the customer doesn't like having that riser in the middle of the crowd for that guy in jean's and a black t-shirt to stand behind a camera with all those wire's and what not. They also don't like having the large tripod's on the stage, or the random guy walking around up front of the stage.
Then they get this idea that they want more out of video. Now they want you to mix a DVD, two laptops, and three camera's together, and throw name's and transitions into it, along with record the video feed so they can send it up the line to the corporate heads to see and distribute around. Suddenly you're basic stuff is worthless because you have to go up to something bigger.
We went with the Sony remote camera's. One guy can run three of them and do transitions with our setup. The other thing you have to think about is you're preview screen's... how are you going to see what you're switching to before hand? We have Marshall screen's loaded into our rack to have everything previewed so as to not look like fools.
With the remote camera's you save on man hour's. You don't have to have intercom (Did you think about the intercom you would need to run to the camera guys?)
As for a switcher. We went with a Tricaster Studio. Far out of your budget, but the Tricaster normal one http://www.newtek.com/tricaster/tricaster.php would be plenty for you.... I would highly recommend going that route.
Post by: Ken Freeman on October 27, 2007, 05:24:51 PM
If you are telling me that you are not in a position to invest 40 grand on a complete system with three cameras and support, then plan on shooting a lot of wedding videos. You might find the latest generation of digital DV cameras that can also put out good video to be a good fit. Anything you save on cameras may need to be put back into tripods and fluid heads. You will also spend a lot more of your gross on labor and loading in and loading out and the truck to haul it around in. If you do head down this path, I might suggest a second hand Panasonic MX-70 switcher mated with your choice of scan converter or scalar so you can interface computers.
Ken
Post by: Brad Weber on October 27, 2007, 07:46:56 PM
| Ken Freeman wrote on Sat, 27 October 2007 17:24 |
If you do head down this path, I might suggest a second hand Panasonic MX-70 switcher mated with your choice of scan converter or scalar so you can interface computers. |
Just be aware that scan converting a computer image into a video switcher, processing it and then scaling it back to the projector (either in the projector or via an external scaler) may result in noticeable degradation of the image on a large screen. If you do this with a lower cost scan converter and scaler it may well be an unacceptable result.
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on October 27, 2007, 09:16:52 PM
I knew about the Studio in advance, without knowing any details, and was hoping they'd step it up. No love.
I think I'm going to check out Kramer's "dual seamless" scaler next. I have a fade-through-black from them which has done its job as a $1700 item. Some weird frame rate things going on with it, though, like it can't find synch.
Video is expensive.It's getting tougher to sell, with people responding "But I can buy a projector at Office Max for $800!"
Post by: Karl P(eterson) on October 27, 2007, 10:07:36 PM
| E. Lee Dickinson wrote on Sat, 27 October 2007 21:16 |
Video is expensive.It's getting tougher to sell, with people responding "But I can buy a projector at Office Max for $800!" |
Video can sure bowl some people over. While I can usually understand why stuff costs as much as it does, the one place I really don't seem to understand is when it comes to "cameras" as a category.
Why does a decent fluid head cost 5 grand? Why does a decent (HD) camera block cost 45 grand, why does an HD tape recorder cost 60+ G, and why the F*^$ does that block of glass cost more than my freakin house.
I guess the reason is high technology in an extremely limited market share, but it still never ceases to amaze me.
Karl P
Post by: Sean Hayes on October 27, 2007, 10:24:41 PM
Thank You all,
Post by: Dave Bjornson on November 08, 2007, 11:23:27 PM
In a small market you can make some good dough with a rugged small setup. Mine is based around the Panasonic mx70, Laptops with s video outputs, two sanyo xp45s, two 10.5 x 14 fast folds, a small 12 box meyer upa/dm1000 rig, 8 sticks of global truss, 6 rigstar 1 tons, an old strand cd8o dimmer, 24 source 4 fixtures and 300ft of 16' velour P+D. I rent cameras as needed. It ain't rocket science.
I grossed 175k with this rig last year. Paid for everything in 1 year. I bought almost every piece used, resulting in huge savings. Get some clients and the rest will follow. The key is great customer service and effective, creative designs. It's a much easier world to make a profit than SR.
FWIW, I found the Anycast to have unacceptable latency.
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on November 09, 2007, 12:03:45 AM
I too started with s-outs on computers into SD switcher, but quickly grew into clients who wanted their 8pt font powerpoint tables legible. Me, I was taught to always use at least 20pt fonts on presentations.
Post by: Chris McDonald on November 11, 2007, 05:03:37 PM
The setup we are using is limited. The switcher does not do any form of keying or downstream key. It has limited built in titling which is pretty useless. The transitions are pretty limited and to get a clean switch you must preview the next source first. We generally operate at 1024x768(the projectors native resolution) but the switcher is capable of 1080p. The inputs can be anything from SD video up to full HD. There is no SDI or HD-SDI support but it will take Y/C, component, RGB, RGBHV, RGBS. For monitors I'm just using a pair of cheap LCD computer monitors.
I've gone with all HD-15(VGA) cables with various breakouts. On some jobs they just feed the projectors. On others I use them sorta like a poor mans "triax" carrying y/c video, intercom and video preview(but not power ofcourse). Lots of cables, adapters and amplifiers are a must. Don't forget to factor that into your cost.
I'm also doing video production on the side so I'm looking at picking up a pair of Canon XL-H1. They seem to be the best bang for the buck on the market today. They have component out and HD/SD-SDI for when I upgrade to a real production switcher. The only thing I don't like about them is the dinky connector for the component out and the placement there of.
On the last job we ended up adding a scan converter to our inventory. The client wanted everything recorded to DVD and the VP-727 doesn't do SD interlaced out. We just recorded to a consumer grade dvd recorder which worked fine. As a backup both cameras were recording to tape and I had a copy of there power point presentation. It wasn't till the night of I found out they needed a highlight real edited down and shipped out to there home office for a board meeting 3 days later. That would be easy if I didn't have to edit on a laptop in premiere. Which took a day to transfer the tapes to and rip the DVDs, then I lost another day when we found out it had to be shipped the day before...
The biggest problem I've been having is finding skilled people to operate the cameras and switchers. We are in a very limited market that is a days drive from anywhere.
Post by: E. Lee Dickinson on November 11, 2007, 08:14:59 PM
Post by: Chris McDonald on November 12, 2007, 01:08:22 PM
| E. Lee Dickinson wrote on Sun, 11 November 2007 21:44 |
Hey Chris, I've been looking at the 727. Do you ever see any weird frame rates or jerkiness with it? I have a VP724 that shows some flakiness with fast camera moves and full motion video. |
I haven't had any problems with the VP727 at all. The video quality is great. Well the transitions are nothing great, I just use straight cuts and cross dissolve anyway. PiP works pretty good too, though it doesn't always work as expected, its something along the lines at RGBHV with YC pip works or vice versa but not YC on YC. I'm not really pushing the abilities of the unit at all. I'm only running at 1024x768 and the inputs are typically two PC's at 1024x768@60hz on RGBHV and 2 cameras running 480i over YC. It does take a moment to sync up on the preview before you can get a clean switch. I wouldn't want to have to do a complex production on it.
In someways I wish someone would make a quad scaler. Two more preview buses would be great. But then you might as well go with a real production switcher and a few independent scalers.
Post by: Karl P(eterson) on November 12, 2007, 07:04:37 PM
| Chris McDonald wrote on Mon, 12 November 2007 13:08 |
In someways I wish someone would make a quad scaler. Two more preview buses would be great. But then you might as well go with a real production switcher and a few independent scalers. |
Check out the Barco ScreenPro 2.
It gives you a native resolution background, a transitioning layer or two non transitioning layers as well as a DSK. It also has SDI input and output options.
It is a full look-ahead preview as well.
It isn't a miracle machine but considering its price, its great.
If you want an even bigger rig, take a look at the Encore system, you can put together stuff with up to 12 scalers per screen.
Karl P