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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Steve Garris on April 12, 2021, 09:36:09 PM
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I'm back after a year off from covid - just doing a few shows a year now.
My primary band uses all IEM's. I have an issue with the guitar player. He is hearing way too much drums in his ears (they're not in his mix). I showed him that they're coming through his vocal mic, which has a very high gain setting. He often speaks and sings too quietly, requiring the high gain.
I decided to switch out his standard issue 58 for a Senn 935, which he liked better, but it didn't really eliminate the stage bleed. Can anyone recommend a quality vocal mic that would eliminate more of the drum stage bleed? He's only singing backups, and there are no monitors or feedback issues with this band.
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I get good results from the Audix OM7 and use it mainly for drummers who sing for just the reason you state. You have to be right on the mic and have the gain turned up higher than usual but it is great for rejecting everything else.
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{...} Can anyone recommend a quality vocal mic that would eliminate more of the drum stage bleed? He's only singing backups, and there are no monitors or feedback issues with this band.
If you can't make him louder (or the drums quieter), and if his mic technique is already good (i.e. you also can't get him any closer to the mic), then it's time to start looking at gating. If it's only a problem when he moves away from his mic you could even consider something like an Optogate.
I get good results from the Audix OM7 and use it mainly for drummers who sing for just the reason you state. You have to be right on the mic and have the gain turned up higher than usual but it is great for rejecting everything else.
Highly-directional microphones like the OM7 can definitely help in situations (like singing drummers) where the sound you're trying to reject is coming from a different direction than the sound you're trying to pick up, but in the case of a quiet singer in front of a loud drum kit (i.e. where the wanted and unwanted sounds are coming from roughly the same direction) a more directional microphone isn't likely to do much.
-Russ
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Two different approaches here, OM7 and other high directional mics works well. If you have a B57A/B56, it's worth testing even though it's pattern is not super-tight, primarily because you get the capsule closer to the mouth with equals more signal to noise.
The other approach is going for a mic that sounds good off-axis so the bleed sounds better. Works well with singing drummers who like hearing a reasonable amount of their drums anyway. I deploy DPA d:facto for this with good results.
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He often speaks and sings too quietly, requiring the high gain.
Inadequate performer expects technology to fix their problems, as ever.
The root cause of the problem is him. He does need to understand that his weak voice is causing his problem and, quite likely, impacting the FOH mix.
By all means, you can try all the tricks in the book - OM7, tighter polar patterns, gating (unlikely to work if the kit's louder than his voice), opto-gating (depending on how he moves), repositioning him, drum-shield. All of these will only make incremental improvements, and physics will still determine that the loudest sound at the mic wins.
Many performers think that a fully micd band is a mix of individual instruments - it's instructive to playback some solod sources to help them discover that a band is a mix of mixes.
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Does he at least sing right on top of the mic?
Does he understand the cause of the problem?
At one time Crown made "Differoid" vocal mics more or less like a CM311
headset mic in a handheld version.
If you could fine one it may be worth a try.
Anything is going to just be a band aid on the problem.
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Do you use a Gate? Maybe have your drummer use a shield? I try and keep our stage volume low and find it easier to have a cleaner mix. MHO Not sure the change from a 58, OM7 or the Senn will make a huge difference?
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I'm back after a year off from covid - just doing a few shows a year now.
My primary band uses all IEM's. I have an issue with the guitar player. He is hearing way too much drums in his ears (they're not in his mix). I showed him that they're coming through his vocal mic, which has a very high gain setting. He often speaks and sings too quietly, requiring the high gain.
I decided to switch out his standard issue 58 for a Senn 935, which he liked better, but it didn't really eliminate the stage bleed. Can anyone recommend a quality vocal mic that would eliminate more of the drum stage bleed? He's only singing backups, and there are no monitors or feedback issues with this band.
Tape a second one beside it, wires out of phase. It worked for "the Dead".....
Chris.
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Can anyone recommend a quality vocal mic that would eliminate more of the drum stage bleed? He's only singing backups, and there are no monitors or feedback issues with this band.
You're likely to get a lot of "Ford vs Chevy" answers but, in general, the narrower the pickup pattern, the better the rejection. BUT, that means the singer needs to be ON the mic - not off axis or 3 feet back.
Some of my personal favorite super/hyper cardioid vocal mics are sE V7 (in the SM58 price range) and Telefunken M80 (2.5x $).
You might also look into an OptoGate for that mic: http://www.optogatesolutions.com/
Dave
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It looks weird, but you can also point the mic more to the side away from the drums to get them farther into the mic null.
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It looks weird, but you can also point the mic more to the side away from the drums to get them farther into the mic null.
My thinking exactly and also have the guitar player stand a little further to the side of the drummer if possible. These kinds of small changes can really make a difference.
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I think point one would be to ensure he is aware of why the problem exists. that doesn't mean he has to change what he does, but at least so he knows who to blame. As long as he knows it's because of what he does that the issue is worse, he can at least come to a point of reasonable expectation from the other talents in the room. I.E. he is the limitation that sets the bar where it is at. the better he is, the higher the bar can go.
Aside from that, you can try gating or expansion, but if the problem is still bad when he is on the mic, it will only solve the issue when he is off the mic.
A trick you can try. Instead of gating the actual channel, you can copy the channel to another one and flip the polarity. It will 100% null out the mics sound when you route both into his brain. Apply a very high ratio compressor to the copied channel. Set it so that the ambient noise doesn't activate the compressor, but as soon as he sings it does engage the compressor. When the polarity flipped channel compresses enough, the primary channel will be all he hears. you can also use this trick like a gate to keep the background noise down to an acceptable level that is dynamic to his singing.
A third option that will require some more work would be to use a second matching microphone that is set near to him but isn't used for anything other than noise cancellation. Again, you invert the polarity of this " other mic " and adjust the delay ( so it will need to be further away from him than the drums are ) and because the drums sound shouldn't change too much in a couple of feet, they should nearly completely null out while allowing his voice to come through.
Directional mics will not and cannot completely fix the bleed issue. it will always be there, although reduced some. The other tricks can help get the noise floor even lower, but have their own issues.
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Tape a second one beside it, wires out of phase. It worked for "the Dead".....
This is worth a try, too. I'd switch to a pair of omnis, though, probably EV 635As or the like.
-Russ
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You might also look into an OptoGate for that mic: http://www.optogatesolutions.com/
Noise gates will either false trigger from the drum level, or cut off initial vocals.
Luke's polarity reversed/compressed duplicate "trick" suffers from the same problem.
The off axis sound of polarity reversed pairs, or noise cancelling mics using phase reversed elements (Crown differoid etc.) just plain sucks, the Grateful Dead abandoned that concept and went to alarm mats wired to contact closures of noise gates for good reason.
Hypercardioid mics (OM7 etc.) generally won't reduce background noise leakage for a weak singer enough to make much difference, especially if the weak singer is not willing to have lips glued to it.
The Optogate, or a switching mat are by far the best sonic solution to shutting off an unused vocal mic.
https://www.premierguitar.com/make-a-mic-muter
Art
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There is not a sufficient, economical solution to this fundamentally human issue. The player needs a psychologist and a voice coach, and the drummer needs lighter sticks and a thoroughly sound beating when overplaying. No, I'm not joking.
These are exactly the kinds of problems that can only be *fixed* at the source; everything else is a band-aid/make-do/humor-him response.
The OM-7? Eh, if he's not on the mic now, he won't be then, either. Turn the player around 180° and face upstage and *maybe* the OM-7 would be an improvement, but then an SM-58 might be acceptable... so long as the business end of the mic is pointing upstage the drummer will win against the mini-voice.
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so long as the business end of the mic is pointing upstage the drummer will win against the mini-voice.
This is important. The mic's pointing at the drummer, and loudest sound at the mic wins.
The only mic I can think of that even might help is the EV N/D967, which IMO doesn't sound great, but by having an almost flat grille (psychological - singers seem to stay on it better) and the capsule very very close to the singer (inverse square law helping out, for a change), has the best isolation for a vocal that I've come across.
I prefer Sennheiser e935s for 99.9% of situations, though. I rarely recommend the EVs because of their huge proximity effect (serious EQ required) and not-particularly-smooth kHz range.
Chris
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This is worth a try, too. I'd switch to a pair of omnis, though, probably EV 635As or the like.
-Russ
Crown makes a headset differential mic (CM311). It's giant so I doubt a modern singer will want to wear it, however.
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Not an answer to the question, but a question if the Shure KSM8 might work. I don't have one (a little expensive to buy just to play with), but it looks like it might be a solution to that problem. Anyone try one?
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Not an answer to the question, but a question if the Shure KSM8 might work. I don't have one (a little expensive to buy just to play with), but it looks like it might be a solution to that problem. Anyone try one?
Got one here. It won't fix this situation, but if you're looking for a decent-sounding dynamic vocal mic, it's a good choice. Nice and smooth in the kHz range.
Chris
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how about having the optical gate ? http://www.optogatesolutions.com/
or using a floor pressure switch that when standing in front of the mic on the segment of floor with the switch the mic is turned on.
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Loudest sound at the mic wins. Period. No exceptions.
A tighter pickup pattern might help slightly, if the drum kit isn't projecting from the same direction. ie, drummer behind the singer, tighter pickup pattern does nothing. Even off to the side, an OM7 only drops signal level of frequencies under 4K by about 10dB 60 degrees off axis.
If everywhere on the stage you're measuring over 100dB coming from the drums (which is quite common) and the singer is only producing 80dB from the mouthole pressed right up to the mic, well, you can see that the drum is going to be the loudest sound, no matter what.
There's no magic trick that can fix that. Zip. Zero. None.
You need to find a way to make the sound coming out of the singer and getting into the mic is louder than the sound coming from the drums in order for it to work.
This includes getting them to sing louder, getting the drummer to play quieter, or somehow creating a physical barrier that blocks the sound coming from the drums.
The idea of using gates or switches only solves the problem when the singer isn't actually using the mic. As soon as the gate opens, the problem will be right back in place. That is, of course, unless the drummer and singer are not both playing at the same time....
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Wow everyone - thanks! I forgot how great this forum is.
Basically I already knew most of the answers I would get but wanted to double-back here. One exception is; I had never heard of the Optogate - until now. I'm going to do some reading. The guitar player doesn't sing that much, which makes me think this might be a good solution. I don't like using my board's gates with IEM mixes. Too many complaints with the clicking off/on sound in the ears. Next show I might try it and see if I can soften it up.
He's aware and willing to make adjustments as needed, with a great attitude, so no concerns there. The drummer does not play too loud at all - actually very under control and everything in his kit sounds fantastic. No to the drum shield - we spend 5 hours setting up the lights and pixel boards, and another 3 taking them down the next day. No more gear for us, and it wouldn't fit the band's rock image on stage.
Thanks everyone for the info. I'm going to stick with the 935 for now, and try gating the mic with my mixer. The Optogate might be next, we'll see. As this is his issue in his ear mix only, it's not a dire emergency for me. Perhaps I just need to push him to sing louder and get up on that mic a little better.
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Just be aware that Optogates and some types of stage LED lightning doesn't play well together, it messes up the detection/trigger functions on the Optogates.
Make sure to test the lighting conditions in "show mode" during SC if you're running into unknown lights.
Turn off the house lights and do a song in something resembling the actual show.
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I don't like using my board's gates with IEM mixes. Too many complaints with the clicking off/on sound in the ears. Next show I might try it and see if I can soften it up.
Depending on whether your (un-named) board has them or not, you might have more success with expanders.
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Wow everyone - thanks! I forgot how great this forum is.
Basically I already knew most of the answers I would get but wanted to double-back here. One exception is; I had never heard of the Optogate - until now. I'm going to do some reading. The guitar player doesn't sing that much, which makes me think this might be a good solution. I don't like using my board's gates with IEM mixes. Too many complaints with the clicking off/on sound in the ears. Next show I might try it and see if I can soften it up.
If your going to try gating again (you walk a fine line gating a vocal mic) set the gate depth or attenuation to maybe only 6 to 8 db with a longer release time. The lower attenuation will reduce the
stage wash but not sound like someone hit just hitting the mute button on and off on that mic channel.
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Expanders are much more natural sounding than gates. Where a gate cuts the signal based on a threshold and has similar properties to an expander, the gate does not really compress and decompress, so to speak, as an expander does. An expander usually has a release setting which for it, is how fast it will close back up. The decompression of the expander is usually set based on a ratio setting. So like a compressor where the ratio sets how much it will compress given X signal, the expander will " open up " based on a similar ratio. You can also set the amount of reduction. So you can set it for -6db or -12db for instance, or whatever produces the amount of reduction you need. Because of the way the expander works, even if it does open up unintentionally, it is very smooth and natural and not choppy like a gate is.
I haven't used optogates myself, have heard of them, but as with any solution, it has its cons as well. The most reliable one I have seen and heard of is the switching mat. It is a mat that has a pressure switch in it. When the artist steps on the mat, it turns on the mic, when they walk away, it turns off the mic. I see them mostly in use for talk-back mics for IEM based bands. That or an actual momentary foot switch
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CM310 is the way to go if you can find one. I used to have four of them.
This only works with lips on grill. Even a couple of inches will make a great difference.
He will know his mic technique is faulty when he can no longer hear himself.
Dave toured Nirvana, along with Al Bagley. Al hasn't posted in forever but IIRC they had CM310. Elvis (RIP) had (again IIRC) 4x Deltamax for his monitor setup. I remember Bagley describing it as "punishing".
If you can imagine Slayer playing Hampton Beach Casino Ballroom, I dropped 4x EAW SM222 with JBL HF for their Elvis. I was surprised at how little I had to EQ that setup to make it work. It too was punishing. Wow. Their regular ME was at FOH for this show. I don't remember his name but his mix was fantastic, averaging around 106 dBa and it did not hurt to listen, which I found remarkable. I believe the mic was a 58.
If you need some steam powered monitors and don't mind the weight:
https://reverb.com/item/25620036-eaw-sm222-stage-monitor-loaded-with-2445j-high-frequency-drivers-6-in-a-case
Six of those beasts in one case? Yikes.
Sorry for the digression but the CM310 brings back the memories.
Funny story: when this gig was being advanced they asked for quite a few 850s to be brought in, stacked. If you know the Casino Ballroom you can imagine what that did for sight lines. Anyway, when it was pointed out only 400ish tickets out of 1100 had been sold and money to pay for this would be an issue, the reply was "Slayer never relies on advance ticket sales because we do not know if our fans will be in or out of jail on show day".
It ended up almost selling out. A quick survey of the parking lot revealed a lot of 70s era Monte Carlo, Camaro, etc.
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Yesterday I saw an El Camino with a sticker that said Certified White Boy..... I had to see this guy to certify myself that he was in fact a white boy. Sure as poop, he was a white boy. Tattoos, mullet, unkempt facial hair, trucker hat, denim jacket and other telltale signs of being as such. I'm pretty sure he listens to Slayer or at least heavy metal :) That's it, short story today. Perfect timing Doug with your telling of Slayer.
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Yesterday I saw an El Camino with a sticker that said Certified White Boy..... I had to see this guy to certify myself that he was in fact a white boy. Sure as poop, he was a white boy. Tattoos, mullet, unkempt facial hair, trucker hat, denim jacket and other telltale signs of being as such. I'm pretty sure he listens to Slayer or at least heavy metal :) That's it, short story today. Perfect timing Doug with your telling of Slayer.
lol El Camino, I'm sure they were also present in the car park.
Around here the 70s rolling stock would likely have a KSHE-95 sticker mounted somewhere.
I miss mulletsgalore.com
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pro and con on the pressure switch on the floor is you may need to use dynamic mic with no phantom power. phantom power will pop the system when on and off triggers.
this might also be the problem with opto gates. Best if on the default dynamic mic so switching on and off will be without the pops.
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pro and con on the pressure switch on the floor is you may need to use dynamic mic with no phantom power. phantom power will pop the system when on and off triggers.
this might also be the problem with opto gates. Best if on the default dynamic mic so switching on and off will be without the pops.
It depends on the design, but most muting devices (including the Optogates) shouldn't cause audio pops with condensers. The typical design for these is to mute the audio by shorting signal hot to signal cold, which should have no effect on phantom power.
-Russ
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Sure, a mic can help a little; however, as others have pointed out, the loudest sound at the mic wins .... which is of course true.
Would you be interested in a drum shield? If the drums are getting into his mic, I bet you a dollar they are getting into other microphones as well. [sarcasm] Nothin better sounding than drums re-amlified with some singer effects like delay and reverb to help tighten up the mix ;) [/sarcasm].
I think this will make more than the backup singers mix sound better, and it will save you some money on the shock collar you were fixin to buy for the drummer!
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Would you be interested in a drum shield? If the drums are getting into his mic, I bet you a dollar they are getting into other microphones as well. [sarcasm] Nothin better sounding than drums re-amlified with some singer effects like delay and reverb to help tighten up the mix ;) [/sarcasm].
Er, already suggested and rejected:
No to the drum shield - we spend 5 hours setting up the lights and pixel boards, and another 3 taking them down the next day. No more gear for us, and it wouldn't fit the band's rock image on stage.
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Er, already suggested and rejected:
If you can find a CM310 with a return policy, I respectfully submit you get it, try it out, and report back here.
https://reverb.com/item/5378837-crown-cm-310a-differoid-condensor-cardiod-microphone-kurt-cobain-style-live-mic-new-old-stock
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Er, already suggested and rejected:
Yes, there were 2 suggestions: less from the drummer and more from the singing voice. The former was rejected by the act or nature of the gig, and the second remains unaddressed.
Acoustic problems are best met with acoustic solutions. In this case, the 'natural' signal to noise ratio at the vocal mic.
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Er, already suggested and rejected:
Must have missed it.
Still a better solution IMO.
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I get good results from the Audix OM7 and use it mainly for drummers who sing for just the reason you state. You have to be right on the mic and have the gain turned up higher than usual but it is great for rejecting everything else.
+1 you stole my thunder!
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If you can find a CM310 with a return policy, I respectfully submit you get it, try it out, and report back here.
https://reverb.com/item/5378837-crown-cm-310a-differoid-condensor-cardiod-microphone-kurt-cobain-style-live-mic-new-old-stock
We used the CM310 for stadium announcers for years until it was discontinued. It also features very low handling noise. I still have two of them that were pulled out for drummers when I did that sort of thing.
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+1 you stole my thunder!
Wasn't that the goal?
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I'm back after a year off from covid - just doing a few shows a year now.
My primary band uses all IEM's. I have an issue with the guitar player. He is hearing way too much drums in his ears (they're not in his mix). I showed him that they're coming through his vocal mic, which has a very high gain setting. He often speaks and sings too quietly, requiring the high gain.
I decided to switch out his standard issue 58 for a Senn 935, which he liked better, but it didn't really eliminate the stage bleed. Can anyone recommend a quality vocal mic that would eliminate more of the drum stage bleed? He's only singing backups, and there are no monitors or feedback issues with this band.
With very high gain it doesn't matter what mic you use. Gate his mic or use an Optogate. Also, move him away from the drummer. If he typically stands directly in front of the drummer, his mic will be pointing directly at the kit when he's not singing.
http://www.optogatesolutions.com/ (http://www.optogatesolutions.com/)
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Wow everyone - thanks! I forgot how great this forum is.
Basically I already knew most of the answers I would get but wanted to double-back here. One exception is; I had never heard of the Optogate - until now. I'm going to do some reading. The guitar player doesn't sing that much, which makes me think this might be a good solution. I don't like using my board's gates with IEM mixes. Too many complaints with the clicking off/on sound in the ears. Next show I might try it and see if I can soften it up.
He's aware and willing to make adjustments as needed, with a great attitude, so no concerns there. The drummer does not play too loud at all - actually very under control and everything in his kit sounds fantastic. No to the drum shield - we spend 5 hours setting up the lights and pixel boards, and another 3 taking them down the next day. No more gear for us, and it wouldn't fit the band's rock image on stage.
Thanks everyone for the info. I'm going to stick with the 935 for now, and try gating the mic with my mixer. The Optogate might be next, we'll see. As this is his issue in his ear mix only, it's not a dire emergency for me. Perhaps I just need to push him to sing louder and get up on that mic a little better.
The only issues we had with Optogates, when we had them, was the lighting problem (already mentioned) and that the sensor can be a little slow. If the singer backs off the mic when not singing, then suddenly lunges to the mic when they are singing, sometimes part of the first word got cut off, particularly if the singer was off to the side of the mic instead of in-line. (The infrared sensor picks up in-line with the mic. The pickup range of the sensor can be adjusted.)
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Just a follow up to your questions, the guitar vocal gain is not super high, just a little more than others.
Using a Senn 935 helped a lot, but he still wants more isolation from the drums.
His guitar rig is at a reasonable level, so the drums on stage will be the loudest thing, but I still don't believe they're too loud.
He is not in front of the drums - he's stage right. Stage is 24' x 12'-6" deep.
His IEM's are not of high quality - I failed to mention this.
I might revisit the gate, using some settings recommended in this thread.
I don't have an expander - wish I did now.
Right now I'm considering showing him the Optogate, but we have a lot of flashy-blinky going on. Again, we're not doing a drum shield.
He's a good sport - I'll talk to him about getting up on that mic and singing a little louder. Often, it's just when he talks to the audience where I run out of fader.
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A couple of thoughts:
- As someone else has suggested, angling his mic to point further away from the drums might help by a few dB.
- If he's quiet while talking but okay when singing, that can be fixed. People generally sing louder than they talk, so reminding him to project when talking will likely get things "close enough".
- Better IEMs = better isolation from acoustic bleed, but won't fix what's going into the mic.
Chris
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Again - until this is fixed AT THE SOURCE, nothing else matters.