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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Steve Loewenthal on June 08, 2018, 10:10:19 AM
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I am seeking opinions as to whether this will work at all or perhaps be a complete waste of my time.
I am going to DJ a wedding next weekend and I am considering building a diy shotgun mic using a plastic squirrel baffle and an sm57. I do not have a lav mic or other onmi mic and have no intention of purchasing one.
My build plan is to drill a hole in the baffle, put a long goose neck through the hole from the outside of the hole connected to a short goose neck inside. The connection between the 2 goose necks will hold the baffle in place.
Connect the mic clip to the short goose neck.
For this venue, I will hang the mic in the rafters of the gazebo above the bride.
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Build complete
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There may be some cheap commercial solutions for nature recording.
(https://cdn.hand2mind.com/productimages/87218-web_398.jpg)
JR
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An SM57 is hardly the ideal mic for this application. Also, from your photo, it looks way off centre - does it actually work? And is your reflector even parabolic - or just "concave"? There is some science to this!
Sorry to be negative, but wondering if spending a few pounds/dollars on a *cheap* (literally GPB/USD 10) lav mic might not give you a waaaay better result.
How much are you being paid for the job? And how disappointed will the couple be if the one shot lets them down...?
Is this for live re-inforcement or for recording. If the former, then you're pretty much guaranteed to be wasting your time, sadly.
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If you try a stunt like this, the bride will hunt you down and kill you.
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An SM57 is hardly the ideal mic for this application. Also, from your photo, it looks way off centre - does it actually work? And is your reflector even parabolic - or just "concave"? There is some science to this!
Sorry to be negative, but wondering if spending a few pounds/dollars on a *cheap* (literally GPB/USD 10) lav mic might not give you a waaaay better result.
How much are you being paid for the job? And how disappointed will the couple be if the one shot lets them down...?
Is this for live re-inforcement or for recording. If the former, then you're pretty much guaranteed to be wasting your time, sadly.
Live re-enforcement
$ not enough
parabolic vs concave: don't know didn't measure.
off center: a little. The goose neck is bent away from the center a little to make room for the mic
does it work: don't know yet. I'll test it at the venue comparing it to a straight mic hang.
Will they be disappointed: Wedding is next week and they still have not sent back info such song selection for 1st dance, etc. I don't even know if they want sound re-enforcement for the ceremony.
Previous wedding ceremony at the same location I hung a 57 from the gazebo rafters pointed toward the bride. It just barely helped the 1st or 2nd rows of the audience hear the vows.
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The industry standard these days is to use a lapel mic on the officiant and the groom. The bride rarely if ever gets one unless it is totally hidden and highly inconspicuous. While I haven't tried a parabolic lens, my guess is that it will have little to no effect for your purpose. The problem being proximity. The lens is VERY focused and at short distances will have a narrow beam. It requires distance to get enough media into the lenses beam. I think you will find it works great at getting one of the three under the Huppah / Gazebo, but beyond that I think it won't help much unless there is a little more distance. I would test to see how wide your beam is before the wedding day.
Also the alignment of the mic in the lens is critical. Like a satellite, a few degree's off and it can really effect where it hears and what it hears. If the reflection off the lens is not focused exactly on the mic capsule it will be non effective at picking anything up. It will simply have a hollow and boxy sound and any sound that is heard will sound distant and unclear.
I think it will be a cool gizmo and a neat idea if it works and you can get it past the photographer and the wedding coordinator, but large things that can get into any shot in a wedding is usually nixed despite the purpose. I did a wedding once in the Bahama's and the happy couple wanted the best of the best. We are talking $80,000 in rental and labor just for all the audio needs. The kicker, they didn't want to see any of it!!!!! I was placing $4,000 Meyer speakers on the ground in bushes and hanging them from tree's because they didn't want to see them, or have stands anywhere in sight. It was the most disgusting things ever, to have 12 Meyer speakers all hidden and tucked into places that rendered them nearly useless just for the ceremony. The rehearsal dinner was much the same, a crap ton of speakers all placed in bushes and hidden. They even had the band go to a simple L/R only side fill monitor situation because they didn't want the stage cluttered with gear. Absolutely made no sense. It was a dog and pony show wedding where there was more budget than brains. It can defy all logic and we will still have to place audio stuff in places where it does little to nothing to help what the stuff is used for.
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Here is a picture from the venue web site where I "assume" the ceremony will take place. I speculate that this pic is rather old. For the event I did there 2 years ago, I placed speakers behind the bushes in front of the shelter and they were mostly hidden. The bushes in this pic look rather small so either they replanted, or this pic is at least 5 years old. The mic was almost completely hidden.
The inside portion is basically a large cleaned up barn with a concrete floor. (No need for reverb) No air conditioning last time I was there. June wedding outside in Rock Hill SC. I just don't understand what some people are thinking.
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I am seeking opinions as to whether this will work at all or perhaps be a complete waste of my time.
I am going to DJ a wedding next weekend and I am considering building a diy shotgun mic using a plastic squirrel baffle and an sm57. I do not have a lav mic or other onmi mic and have no intention of purchasing one.
My build plan is to drill a hole in the baffle, put a long goose neck through the hole from the outside of the hole connected to a short goose neck inside. The connection between the 2 goose necks will hold the baffle in place.
Connect the mic clip to the short goose neck.
For this venue, I will hang the mic in the rafters of the gazebo above the bride.
You should rent a hanging mic like an AT 853. It will probably cost you $15.
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So I just took my device into a dark room with a small flashlight mounted in the mic clip. Based on the light beam projected onto the wall, it looks close to but not exactly a parabola. I'll see what happens when I set up at the rehearsal and test it. Not really expecting much, but I've only invested about 15 minutes of time and $0.00 out of pocket.
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Found a laser and did a better test. Not a parabola. The focus point changed as I moved the laser farther from and closer to the center. I'll still try it just for fun, but now expect even less.
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Steve, consider concealing a lav mic & pack on the kneeler, if they use one. Another participant here in the Lounge suggests trying to clip a lav to the officiant's "binder" that holds the text and vows as he/she is likely to be holding it pointed in the general direction of the couple. Conceal the body pack inside the binder.
The idea that we are simply expected to make this work and for it all to be invisible is one of the reasons I dislike doing weddings. There are plenty of ways to "fix" these problems, all of them from musical theater, but brides and mom-zilla seem to have objections to all of them.
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BTW, finally spoke with the bride to be. If I can get even a little sound then it will be a bonus as long as there is nothing visible in the pictures, but she is also OK if I can't get any sound re-enforcement for the vows.
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Another participant here in the Lounge suggests trying to clip a lav to the officiant's "binder" that holds the text and vows as he/she is likely to be holding it pointed in the general direction of the couple. Conceal the body pack inside the binder.
Like... 8)
JR
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Steve, consider concealing a lav mic & pack on the kneeler, if they use one. Another participant here in the Lounge suggests trying to clip a lav to the officiant's "binder" that holds the text and vows as he/she is likely to be holding it pointed in the general direction of the couple. Conceal the body pack inside the binder.
The idea that we are simply expected to make this work and for it all to be invisible is one of the reasons I dislike doing weddings. There are plenty of ways to "fix" these problems, all of them from musical theater, but brides and mom-zilla seem to have objections to all of them.
As I stated in the 1st post, I don't have a lav mic and don't intend to purchase one.
I'm not a sound provider. (Not really even a DJ.) I'm the guy in the band with the PA.
As long as I have this stuff, I'll do maybe 2 DJ gigs a year, and of these, the weddings are maybe 1 every 2 years. This is probably my 10th wedding. (Its all been "you did the wedding for my friend and they recommended you", so I must be doing something that they like.) I never really needed a lav mic.
Now when I eventually quit my day job, IF I start doing more of this, then, perhaps, I'll get more than just the equipment I need for the band.
I do have an old wireless headset mic that is omni, but I don't think the headset part is detachable from the mic. Haven't used it since the late 90's maybe early 2000's.
As to renting anything, I don't think I want to try to deal with that. I'd have to take time off from my regular day job pick up some thing during normal business hours a couple days ahead of time, then more time off to return it the next week.
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As I stated in the 1st post, I don't have a lav mic and don't intend to purchase one.
I'm not a sound provider. (Not really even a DJ.) I'm the guy in the band with the PA.
As long as I have this stuff, I'll do maybe 2 DJ gigs a year, and of these, the weddings are maybe 1 every 2 years. This is probably my 10th wedding. (Its all been "you did the wedding for my friend and they recommended you", so I must be doing something that they like.) I never really needed a lav mic.
Now when I eventually quit my day job, IF I start doing more of this, then, perhaps, I'll get more than just the equipment I need for the band.
I do have an old wireless headset mic that is omni, but I don't think the headset part is detachable from the mic. Haven't used it since the late 90's maybe early 2000's.
As to renting anything, I don't think I want to try to deal with that. I'd have to take time off from my regular day job pick up some thing during normal business hours a couple days ahead of time, then more time off to return it the next week.
Ooops, somehow I missed the part about your not having inventory.
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I'll just leave this here...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-Technica-U891RC-UniPoint-Condenser-Boundary-Microphone-SKU-1000286/253674853902?hash=item3b1033160e:g:ueYAAOSwxllbGRiV
Hiding one of these close to the action is a lot easier and you'll get a much better result. Plus you can use this for live sound if you get creative. Boundary mics work great on a kick with no hole in it, for instance. I have gotten some awesome results using a SM91 and 2 overheads on a "drummer you've heard of" and I even got compliments from the crowd on how it sounded.
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I'll just leave this here...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-Technica-U891RC-UniPoint-Condenser-Boundary-Microphone-SKU-1000286/253674853902?hash=item3b1033160e:g:ueYAAOSwxllbGRiV
Hiding one of these close to the action is a lot easier and you'll get a much better result. Plus you can use this for live sound if you get creative. Boundary mics work great on a kick with no hole in it, for instance. I have gotten some awesome results using a SM91 and 2 overheads on a "drummer you've heard of" and I even got compliments from the crowd on how it sounded.
Even though I don't need a lav mic for the band, I still have a small but manageable problem with GAS.
(Although we now use electric drums so a kick mic is also no longer needed.)
So, hypothetically speaking, if I were to purchase the Audio-Technica U891RC in that link, Please rate in order of best result to worst the following 3 locations: 1) above the couple just below the rafters of the shelter 2) on the floor near the couple 3) on a vertical post of the shelter opposite side of the post from the audience, as close to mouth height of the bride as she will allow.
Also, hypothetically speaking of course, if it were mounted in the rafter, just how much better than a 57 in the same location would it be?
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That GAS is a persistent thing. So I placed the order even though it said delivery by 6/16. I sent a message to the seller asking if I could pay a small fee to increase my chances of getting it by 6/15. Got back an out of office auto reply.
So now that I placed the order, looks like the questions in my previous is still most likely going to stay in the hypothetical. :(
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Even though I don't need a lav mic for the band, I still have a small but manageable problem with GAS.
(Although we now use electric drums so a kick mic is also no longer needed.)
So, hypothetically speaking, if I were to purchase the Audio-Technica U891RC in that link, Please rate in order of best result to worst the following 3 locations: 1) above the couple just below the rafters of the shelter 2) on the floor near the couple 3) on a vertical post of the shelter opposite side of the post from the audience, as close to mouth height of the bride as she will allow.
Also, hypothetically speaking of course, if it were mounted in the rafter, just how much better than a 57 in the same location would it be?
I have not used that particular A-T mic, but I have 5 Crown PCC 160 boundary mics that I use mostly for Irish hard shoe dance (or tap shoes). As the name implies, they work when placed on a boundary surface like a floor or conference table. Hanging in free space is the worst possible option. The floor is the best of your three options. The wider the post/pillar the better, otherwise it's essentially in free space.
Boundary mics (also known as PZM, or pressure zone mics) are sometimes used in theater for speaking or singing. If you are on a concrete floor, you shouldn't have to worry about floor resonance from foot traffic. How well it works if there is a giant wedding dress present is an open question. Let us know how it works for you.
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BTW, finally spoke with the bride to be. If I can get even a little sound then it will be a bonus as long as there is nothing visible in the pictures, but she is also OK if I can't get any sound re-enforcement for the vows.
I'm sure the people in attendance won't have any problem without sound re-enforcement either!!!!!
If your putting up speakers even off to the far sides out of any camera shots people will expect sound to come out of them.
Tell them to pony up and pay to have it done right or don't attempt to do anything at all other then to tell them to talk loud.
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If you were going to DIY a parabolic and put it in the roof, you could much more easily out this mic on a piece of plywood up there too.
I've used them on desks, podiums, walls, piano lids, etc. PZM mics are fantastic tools in the toolbox.
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FWIW, if the officiant has a book of some sort from which she or he reads, it pretty easy to tuck a wireless lav mic sticking out the end closest to the bride and groom. That gives all three participants a pretty decent mic position with minimal visual intrusion. The natural motion of slightly raising the book when reading from it, and lowering it when the bride or groom says something sometimes even helps with mic positioning.
Something for the future, maybe.
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We actually own a hollowed out book that we put a lav pack into then have a little spot to clip a mic to so it faces the bride and groom. officiant holds said leather bound book.
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We actually own a hollowed out book that we put a lav pack into then have a little spot to clip a mic to so it faces the bride and groom. officiant holds said leather bound book.
This approach has worked really well for us. Coach the officiant a bit - they are a human mic stand. If they can get a bit closer to each speaker during vows it helps. Take a moment to ring out the mic and improve your gain-before-feedback.
Have not tried the boundary-mic approach.... let us know how it goes!
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Having "helped" at a few weddings I was playing at try putting the speakers further downstage. People in the front couple of rows will be able to hear the ceremony without reinforcement. Having the speakers further back allows more GBF and helps folks further back hear. It won't be a big presentation like everyone mic'd up but it will help.
I once put a couple SDCs on a stand in front of the couple and covered it all with sprigs of lavender. Couple of Sx80s off to either side of the audience and everyone was happy. They wanted some sort of PA help but weren't going whole hog with a provider. Smaller ceremony.
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My findings with ceremonies is that the people could honestly care less if it is loud. They can't see the mic's and usually can't see the speakers either. So they have little to no expectation of volume. If they can hear the officiant at all, they are happy. Most of the reason for mic'ing these days is for the recordings done by the video guys. If there is a speech / spoken word people often want to hear it, but as to the vows and the repeats made by the bride and groom, people have a reasonable assumption that they are not mic'd and probably won't really be heard. My experience anyway. That and nobody is going to pipe up during the ceremony to tell you to turn things up. It just kinda is what it is.
The big reason I don't like mic'ing the bride and groom is because they are often running off immediately to get pictures taken, and you usually have to chase them down to get the mics back. The next big reason is that, because you almost never mic the bride, you can never get them at equal levels or quality of sound out of the PA when they say their vows and all. It is just a fruitless endeavor.
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The seller was able to give me 2 day shipping. Mic should be delivered tomorrow. Won't have any time to play with it before I go to the rehearsal on Friday. Not sure how I am going to mount it to a piece of plywood either. Possibly velcro if I have any adhesive back on hand that is still usable.
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They have some mounting screw holes on the back, However you want to be sure it is mounted well because of liability and placing items over peoples heads. Recommend you also have a safety wire to catch in the possible case the plywood works its way loose and tries to fall the safety wire will help to also prevent a personal injury.
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We actually own a hollowed out book that we put a lav pack into then have a little spot to clip a mic to so it faces the bride and groom. officiant holds said leather bound book.
All kinds of funny visuals with this as the officiate subconsciously aims and extends the mic with his pelvis and goes tippy-toes. ;D For some reason I am imagining Michael Scott as the officiate. ;D
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What would be the minimum size (area) of plywood that I should use to get reasonable results?
I assume that if mounting on plywood that bigger is better, and there is probably a point of diminishing returns. Is that correct?
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Actually it doesn't have to be that big. The whole thing about a PZM mic is that the surface that it is mounted on is what collects the energy to be picked up by the mic. So the surface only needs to be bigger than the mic itself by at least some amount. I wouldn't say bigger is better necessarily. The excepted norm is a 3' X 3' surface for best results, but I don't think it MUST be that big if the situation won't allow for it. In theory however, the surface that the mic is mounted on should be as big as the lowest frequency of interest. This is impractical for most applications. A 100hz frequency has a wavelength of about 11' so that would be one really big panel to put it on. A 500hz frequency is roughly 5' and this is a more realistic size that the mic can be placed on. Again however, it is excepted that a panel that is roughly 3' - 4' in size is sufficient.
The big aha that most don't think about is the dimensions of the boundary. It is actually NOT IDEAL to have a boundary with equal dimensions. Thus a circular panel is to be avoided. It is actually ideal to have a slightly rectangular panel and to also place the PZM mic slightly off center so that it is not equidistant form any one point on any edge. Imagine a 3' X 4' panel with the mic placed up and back 3" from center. This will reduce the amount of comb filtering that the mic design will pick up as a result of the boundary effect.
The fun of physics. The boundary is a reflective surface. So any two points that are equidistant on the boundary will couple at some frequencies and null at others. So you want to place the mic at a random spot that is not equidistant from any of the four sides, but is still near the middle of the boundary. What happens is that the sound is reflected off the boundary and back into the mic. This is what gives the mic its gain boost. The sound has nowhere to go once it hits the boundary and the mic collects that added energy. The problem is that the reflection is out of phase ( time ) with the original source sound. This is not as big an issue with larger frequencies because the shift in phase ( time ) is small relative to its length. It is easily within 1/4 of a wavelength for much of the spectrum. This is why 3' panels work well enough; a 3' panel is large enough to contain and reflect low end media so that it couples as needed. Now at higher frequencies this is more problematic, but you can't get nothing for free. Having the mic slightly off center reduces the possibility of being at a total null for any one given frequncy and the loss or gain that does occur is minimal.
Again experimentation will prevail, as a small panel perhaps as small as 2' by 2' would work just fine for speech. The reason being is that you are only interested in media from about 500hz and up. There is still enough low end from the direct sound to work, but the boost in output will occur in the critical midband where you need it most. Try a couple panels and see what works best for you.
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Clear perspex/acrylic is the material of choice for discrete PZM panels in conference settings.
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Actually, if there's a way to directly mount the PZM to the ceiling of the arbor that may save some grief. Alternately, mount it to a small panel and mount that to the ceiling. The idea is that there is only one coherent pressure front at the element. Small steps from a mounting panel don't really have any effect.
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Thanks for the replies. I think it tells me what I need to know from a sound perspective.
I often mislead myself into thinking about collection area when instead I should think in terms of wavelength of the frequency band.
I don't remember is whether the shelter has rafters with a "joist" type member at the bottom (ie a triangle) where I can lay the plywood on top, or if they are a simple inverted V where I will need to screw through the plywood into the underside of the rafters. I stuffed a couple different lengths (3', 4', 8') into the trailer and will hope for the best.
Not sure about the precipitation forecast either, so who knows if I will even set up the outside speakers.
And I still don't understand the desire for an outdoor wedding ceremony in June in Rockhill SC. (That is probably a better topic for the basement.)
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So it was a fine wedding, but I didn't use anything for the vows.
They decided to stand at the very front of the shelter, almost on the steps.
There was no place to put the mic, and also no place to put the speakers in front of the mic.
I'm confident I'll find a use for the mic someday.
Now as to the whole concept of getting vows through a pa system via a mic in a parabolic reflector, my intuition is that something useful could be done, but I just have not taken the time (and probably won't ever) to create something workable.
If someone else ever does work out something along this line, I'd like to see it.
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So it was a fine wedding, but I didn't use anything for the vows.
They decided to stand at the very front of the shelter, almost on the steps.
There was no place to put the mic, and also no place to put the speakers in front of the mic.
I'm confident I'll find a use for the mic someday.
Now as to the whole concept of getting vows through a pa system via a mic in a parabolic reflector, my intuition is that something useful could be done, but I just have not taken the time (and probably won't ever) to create something workable.
If someone else ever does work out something along this line, I'd like to see it.
Steve,
I've done quite a bit of experimentation with parabolic and hyperbolic reflectors.
This company has worked out the details quite well, and offers parabolic reflectors as parts as well as complete units:
https://www.wildtronics.com/store.html
Unless the microphone is exactly positioned at the parabola, and the parabola is properly formed (a salad bowl isn't) results are quite reduced, an inch could reduce level by 10dB or more, making the results no better (and way less smooth) than the unaided microphone.
A properly "tuned" parabolic reflector/mic system will have a pickup pattern of only a few degrees- without someone to actively point it, pretty well useless live.
Even if you could properly point the parabolic mic, the close proximity to the source of a wireless lav would beat it from a fidelity, signal to noise, and gain before feedback standpoint for sound reinforcement.
Art
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I find it kind of funny that we are on four pages of replies for what would have been a simple solution of getting two wireless lapel mics and call it done, as many have suggested doing.
Showing up at a wedding gig with your science fair project would have made you look like.....well less than a professional and given real sound guys a bad name in the eyes is audience.
Do it right or pass the next gig on to someone who can.
For record I am all about DIY projects and experiments but I know when and if they are ready to take out of the shop.
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While I don't know if I will ever budget the time to experiment with this, I feel confident that the "traditional" method of a wireless lav would not have worked at all in this instance due to the given geometry of the bride and speakers.
This is what makes me want to look for another potential solution.
I might end up using my backyard wildlife as an excuse to purchase something like the sonic sleuth. Then, once I already have such a device, hypothetically speaking, I might be inclined to do some experimentation.