ProSoundWeb Community
Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Brandon Fernander on February 17, 2020, 09:29:29 PM
-
Hey Guys I'm looking to get some line arrays similar to the vrx932lap for output & price range but not curvature (not a fan of curvature line arrays) that can mount on poles and the most I'll will spend is 3,000 per line array for right now until I go to the bigger rig.
-
Hey Guys I'm looking to get some line arrays similar to the vrx932lap for output & price range but not curvature (not a fan of curvature line arrays) that can mount on poles and the most I'll will spend is 3,000 per line array for right now until I go to the bigger rig.
A single line array box on a pole? Buy a quality trap box instead.
Real line arrays don't go on poles, nor are they anywhere near $3k. Nor do they scale down in size or cost. How do you get the performance of an 8' tall array without - an 8' array?
-
What are you doing that "requires" a line array?
-
Hey Guys I'm looking to get some line arrays similar to the vrx932lap for output & price range but not curvature (not a fan of curvature line arrays) that can mount on poles and the most I'll will spend is 3,000 per line array for right now until I go to the bigger rig.
As noted, this is not the way to go about this. Using 1 line array element is pointless. Even a 2 or 3 element array is problematic as they are designed to be used in groups.
Perhaps you should consider a trap box, or curvature array for the price to want to pay.
A curvature array would allow for add on boxes as the budget allows.
-
What are you doing that "requires" a line array?
I'm planning on getting up to 16 line arrays to add in my rental inventory for bigger events.
-
I'm planning on getting up to 16 line arrays to add in my rental inventory for bigger events.
That would be "16 ELEMENTS to make my Line Array."
16 in 1 hang right? 8 a side is a little "light".
Chris.
-
Caleb and Keith are spot on with their replies. What is referred to a "line array" in today's pro audio environment is actually based on line source theory that Olsen described in the 30's. Dr. Christian Heil, starting in 1984, developed what became the L-Acoustics V-Dos system - the modern "line array". Among Heil's findings were that "line arrays" can emulate the desired properties of line sources only if you do not curve the "line" more than a few degrees per element. The point of all this is that loudspeakers that curve like the VRX series are NOT line arrays as described by Heil. They do not work like a line source and are not scalable in the same way a "line array" system may be.
You might look at the RCF HDL6A's. It's a pretty impressive little box, but until you have about eight per side, don't expect it to act like a "line array". I have seen them used as front fills with larger systems. One other system you might look at is the DB Technologies Ingenia series. They are not totally scalable, and they are not a "line array", but they sound pretty impressive and do give you some options. I have four IG4's and love their small size and weight. Renkus Heinz has some great scalable digitally stearable IC series elements, but starting at over $5K a box, I don't think it meets your requirements.
-
... I don't think it meets your requirements.
Our collective point is that his requirements (wishes?) don't square with reality.
Either he needs good point source options that can handle small to large(ish) size applications - exact makes/models TBD based on indoors vs outdoors, rigging vs ground stack, physical audience area size, etc - or he needs to realize that buying a line array system is a pretty steep up-front cost that is compromised at smaller sized applications. A few boxes, which isn't a line array, on sticks - is never the right solution. It may be the 'least bad' based on whatever happens to be in inventory, but it's never the best.
I'd steer away from the HDL6 based on the demo I did, especially at small quantities. They need a long overall line length, and even then they are very SPL-challenged. The smallest, cheapest line array I'd consider, based on what I've heard directly - is EAW Radius 8" (RSX208L). Even with those, forget putting a couple on sticks; plan on 6-8 minimum per hang.
If you 'need' line arrays, which is a whole other discussion - you still need something for fills, for small events. Get those now, that will integrate with the main arrays in the future. If Radius - look at the Radius 12" and RSX 218 subwoofers, which are crazy low priced. If RCF, I'd look at the HDL28A's minimum for future, and NX or whichever mid-level trap boxes for now, 9006 subwoofers.
What SPL do you need? Even with, say, 16 boxes per hang - the baby line arrays won't do 10k people outdoors for a full rock concert.
Are you looking to almost-but-not-quite squeak by with the cheapest, mis-used system(s) possible? If that isn't part of your business plan, which I assume you have (?) - you'll need to re-think equipment and budgets. How can you spot a crappy sound company? Not enough too-small line array boxes on sticks ;D We're trying to keep you from falling into that too-common pit.
-
One other system you might look at is the DB Technologies Ingenia series. They are not totally scalable, and they are not a "line array", but they sound pretty impressive and do give you some options. I have four IG4's and love their small size and weight.
Hey Don, not to hijack, but related to your response. I have a pair of the IG4Ts and love them for their sound/weight/portability. I am considering getting another pair to double up for those gigs that need a little more, but don't meet the budget for dragging out the lifts and TTL6A's. What differences do you notice with the IG's doubled up?
Thanks.
-
I think what's being asked here is that the OP wants a scalable system that can go from a few hundred to a few thousand people relatively easily. I can see the appeal/desire of this and there is kind of a gap in the world going from single box on a stick (e.g. K12.2), to small ground stack (e.g. SRX835), to a medium sized actual line array.
-
Hey Don, not to hijack, but related to your response. I have a pair of the IG4Ts and love them for their sound/weight/portability. I am considering getting another pair to double up for those gigs that need a little more, but don't meet the budget for dragging out the lifts and TTL6A's. What differences do you notice with the IG's doubled up?
Thanks.
Nate
The obvious answer is more SPL, but you know that already. The best feature is the digital steering for the highs. It works reasonably well and really helps in certain venues I work, and depending on the outdoor set up. The one thing I have found: they are not long throw devices. I expected a little more when "coupled". They sound very good as you already know.
-
I'll agree with Bob also. There is very little (maybe nothing) that will scale that great of a range at this point, and what might be available is far out of this customers budget. I have not heard a larger R-H ICLive X system, but the systems I have heard impress. That series might could do that, but its not in his budget. Other steerable products (K-Array and EAW) are way out of that budget range. I wish I could buy Dom Perignon for a Bud Light price, but it ain't gonna happen!
-
I'm planning on getting up to 16 line arrays to add in my rental inventory for bigger events.
Hi Brandon, and welcome to ProSoundWeb. Unfortunately, you’re not going to find much love here for what you’re attempting to do, especially considering that you don’t know the proper terminology for what you’re looking to buy.
Topics like this come up here often enough, and the consistent answer you’ll receive is that in the overwhelming majority of cases, buying a line array is the wrong solution both financially and acoustically. Give this thread a read – especially starting around page 5 (link (https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/topic,161269.40.html)). It might save us all some typing. Best of luck with your endeavor though!
-
JBL 4886 or Nexo Geo S12s are probably closest to you original intent but not in the budget you're describing. As others have posted there is a gap between your terminology and the physics of what you want to achieve but nothing a bit of study won't fix.
-
JBL 4886 or Nexo Geo S12s are probably closest to you original intent but not in the budget you're describing. As others have posted there is a gap between your terminology and the physics of what you want to achieve but nothing a bit of study won't fix.
There's also d&b's T10 which can switch between a 90x35 point source box and a 105-degree line-source box. Also likely not within budget.
-Russ
-
There's also d&b's T10 which can switch between a 90x35 point source box and a 105-degree line-source box. Also likely not within budget.
-Russ
Once you factor in transportation, processing, cabling etc.... he will be way above his budget.
OP,
I was once in your shoes. I thought I needed a line array for a few events I was doing a year. I decided to keep my trap boxes and cross rent the line arrays when needed for the handful of events I needed them for.
Story time:
The biggest indoor venue that I find myself in very often usually packs in 1100-1200 people. Events are playback artists and other times it's full bands. One event I cross rented a JBL 4883/4886 rig to see if that's what I wanted to purchase. In order to get the volume I needed at the back of the room I needed to blast the people at the front. This room also doesn't have rigging points but luckily the stage is 4' off the floor and it's very wide so putting the ground stacked array on stage worked. I had been doing this venue with JBL SRX 725/728 as mains and delay speakers time aligned to the front rig. I didn't have to blast the people at the front and had total control of the system with different "zones" if you will.
Point of the story is that a line array is just a tool and in some cases IT'S the wrong tool.
There is more to a line array that just shinny new boxes. You have to factor is rigging, transportation, power, cabling and storage.
-
EAW Anna scales really nice from 2 boxes and upwards, but it’s not 3K per box.
I’ve done small corporate shows with as little as 2 boxes a side, it works. Need steering for lower frequencies or more SPL? Add boxes.
Your low frequency cutoff for steering is of course dictated by line length, but stuff does happen and happen well with just 2 boxes.
-
Martin WPM meets the OP's needs. You can put 4 on a pole and scale up from there. They sound fantastic. Is 4 a side a line array - no. Does 4 a side allow you to do things that you can't with a conventional speaker - yes.
-
I heard EAW Anna demoed again at NAMM this year. I didn't get exact pricing, but the EAW sales person stated pricing as " about the same as other first tier line array systems - about $10K per foot". He was pretty much correct. A 20' long top tier line array is about $200K worth of gear per side.
-
One other system you might look at is the DB Technologies Ingenia series. They are not totally scalable, and they are not a "line array", but they sound pretty impressive and do give you some options. I have four IG4's and love their small size and weight.
I have a pair IG4T and I also bought the coupling bracket so I could experiment with stacking them. The big problem is that they are difficult to stack and then get them high enough in the air to get the horns overhead unless you have the ability to fly them, or place them on a high stage. It is difficult to put a stacked pair of IG4T on top of a stacked pair of subwoofers. Putting them atop a single sub doesn't get them very high.
-
I heard EAW Anna demoed again at NAMM this year. I didn't get exact pricing, but the EAW sales person stated pricing as " about the same as other first tier line array systems - about $10K per foot". He was pretty much correct. A 20' long top tier line array is about $200K worth of gear per side.
What was your impressions from the demo? How does it compare to other high end systems in similar price/performance/application categories?
-
The EAW Radius line is worth looking into. Great performance, uses the same modeling and DSP control/monitoring app as Anna/Anya (though without the steerable options), and is well within the OPs budget per box if you go through an EAW dealer, and especially if you get some B-stock.
-
DAS Audio might be something worth looking at
-
DAS Audio might be something worth looking at
We demoed DAS a couple years back and while they were ok, they were definitely not as good as other options. Also the Vantec range that you posted is only available in constant curvature and limited to hangs of 5. The Event line (which is what we demoed) can do specific angles and larger hangs. I know they've made updates to the line since then (particularly in DSP which they were sorely lacking before) so I can't comment on newer models.
-
What was your impressions from the demo? How does it compare to other high end systems in similar price/performance/application categories?
As indicated, I had heard Ayna and Anna before in outdoor demos. The NAMM demo was in a reasonably small room, but the control over the coverage was again impressive. With the material presented, the sound quality was about as good as anything I've listened to. I also listened to the "loudspeaker roundtable" in the arena a couple of times. Without naming names there were definitely distinct tiers. 1st class speakers that all sounded good and very similar, a second tier that had noticeable differences but could work depending on what the content was and maybe just needed a little EQ, and a couple of systems that just didn't sound good at all. Of course this was just my opinion, and others may have judged things differently.