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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => LAB Lounge FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: Aaron Seymour on May 31, 2007, 05:04:50 pm

Title: My first question
Post by: Aaron Seymour on May 31, 2007, 05:04:50 pm
Alrighty....I've got a sound gig this Sat for an outdoor event at a biker bar.  Expected turnout is between 400 and 500.  Here a profile of the stage layout:

http://bysaturday.com/profile.jpg

It's all outdoors in the layout and the bar area is to the left and it's open air.  I'll be using two Yamaha S215Vs for mains and two SW218Vs for subs.  The mains will be 1000 watts per side and the subs will be 2500 watts each.  So my humble question is which of the layouts below would be best for this gig.

http://bysaturday.com/speakerlayout.jpg

I've done "B" there before with good results but if I can do better I'd sure welcome the suggestions on how to do it.  

BTW - It will be straight up rock bands playing....two guitars, bass, drums and vocals.
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Jonathan McGraw on May 31, 2007, 05:09:10 pm
A
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Aaron Seymour on May 31, 2007, 05:19:36 pm
I'm assuming you say A to get the low frequencies from each cab to play nice with each other?
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Tim McCulloch on May 31, 2007, 05:27:33 pm
"A" will give you better LF coupling and minimize the "power alley" effect up the middle of the house.

Will your top boxes be above head level of the punters down front?

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Aaron Seymour on May 31, 2007, 05:34:25 pm
Thanks for the LF explanation.

Yes, the tops will be above heads of the first and second level...they will be right at head height of the third level and a little under at bar level (not shown on the profile)  I've used setup "B" in the past to get the tops up to head level at the bar...not sure that matters though as most people come down close.
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Toby Mills on May 31, 2007, 05:41:28 pm
If I was you, I would combine A & B if at all possible.
Can you get another pair of subs?
I would run your B rig, then add another pair of subs in the A position. Run your subs as low mids and feed all the real lows into the ground stacked subs.
Alternatively find a way of flying or raising your mid highs and then put your subs on the ground. Height is your friend for Mid Highs but it is not your friend for subs.
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Aaron Seymour on May 31, 2007, 05:46:06 pm
I've got another pair of Yamaha S215Vs I can stick into the sub position in set up A.  Or I could slap a single 18 cab on each side under the tops.

PS - Another pair of SW218Vs are next on my purchase list....wish I had them now.
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Tom Reid on May 31, 2007, 06:19:36 pm
Quote:

Height is your friend for Mid Highs but it is not your friend for subs.


Then why do they make flying subs?
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Vince Byrne on May 31, 2007, 06:31:21 pm
Tom Reid wrote on Thu, 31 May 2007 17:19

Quote:

Height is your friend for Mid Highs but it is not your friend for subs.
Then why do they make flying subs?

Pros for flying subs:
- Consistent arrival times with mains = easier time alignment
- More consistent sub SPL across audience = not blasting the front row
- Same distance to subs and mains = more consistent balance between subs and mains

Cons for flying subs:
- No half-plane loading = higher power required
- Can't center cluster = power alley and combing
- They are heavy = more time and money to fly them
- Subs with flyware = a lot more cost
- Indoors, ceiling reflections can really mess up performance

Peace,
Vince
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Cory 'Rooster' McKinnon on May 31, 2007, 06:43:07 pm
I would go with A to maximize sub efficiency as others have already stated.  I would also consider looking at blocking up the front of the mains to get a better angle (if reasonable and safe) for consistent coverage so you can reach the back seats and not rip off the heads of those up front (minus the yahoos that like to stand in front of the horn of course).
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Scott Smith on May 31, 2007, 06:54:36 pm
Will subs in "A" be under stage or behind a barrier, or will people be kicking them, sitting on them, and spilling their drinks on them?  Common sense should prevail.  Power alley is a small trade-off, and most bikers probably won't care either way.
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Shaun Steele on May 31, 2007, 07:40:24 pm
Maybe its just here, but I find the biker crowd to be much more respectful of gear than people in the trendy rich kid clubs
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on May 31, 2007, 08:02:20 pm
"B" - Unless it's just one of those "poser" biker bars - the kind with the accountant's dressed in Harley gear with 20K rides.

If it's a 1 percenter party - everything stays as far from harm's way as possible.

Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Tim Padrick on May 31, 2007, 11:58:25 pm
B is the worst: Power Alley, and Boundary Cancellation.

http://www.prosoundweb.com/live/articles/jbrusi/pa.php

http://www.peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/boundar ycancellation.cfm

http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/CancellationMode.htm
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Toby Mills on June 01, 2007, 12:06:36 am
dude, if you got another pair of mid high cabs then its a no brainer.

Do A (so long as there is sub protection, if not, put them on the ground at the sides).
Then put your other pair of the S215Vs on top of the pair you already have, but put them upside down so the horns couple together.

You will throw your HF further, have plenty of bottom end and your mids will get to the back better with the elevation.

I've never used S215Vs but can't see any reason why they would not couple ok.

You might need a bit more EQ on your horns than normal because this will make a BIG difference to your high frequencies.

Cheers
Toby


index.php/fa/9459/0/


Quote:

Then why do they make flying subs?


They make them to augment ground stacks, you would almost always want ground stacks first and then to add to them with flown subs to get the distance and consistency. You need so much more power if you fly your subs its insane. Very few rigs (if any), (except maybe orchestras etc that aren't bass heavy) rely on flown subs exclusively.
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Rob Spence on June 01, 2007, 12:16:57 am
I say "A" with getting the tops up high enough and put the subs on pallets in case of flooding from rain. Put a tarp on the pallet first layed out on the ground in front of the sub then fold it in close after the sub is in place. Then, if it rains you can just pull it out and push it over the top protecting the front of the subs.
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Aaron Seymour on June 01, 2007, 10:18:51 am
Thanks to everyone....I'll go with the "A" setup and tilt back the tops with a 2X4 under the front to get better coverage in the back.  I'm doing this show more as a favor (read: less money) for a friend at this place so I'm not inclined to bust out another set of tops unless I have too.  

These bikers are the respectful type...no 1% will be around.
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Tim Brackett on June 01, 2007, 01:35:55 pm
Vince Byrne wrote on Thu, 31 May 2007 17:31


Cons for flying subs:
- No half-plane loading = higher power required
- Can't center cluster = power alley and combing
- Indoors, ceiling reflections can really mess up performance




Flying subs against the ceiling can give the same half-plane loading as ground stacking and if there are rig points in the center there is no reason they can't be center clustered either.  This could be the best placement in some rooms.

Personally I have found that I prefer the sound with the tops aligned over the subs.  The power alley doesn't concern me too much because at almost all the gigs I do the audience has plenty of room to listen from where they want.  There are always those who will find their way to the center and those who will stand right next to one of the stacks.  Then I'll get people that will tell me that it sounds perfect back another 50 yards behind the mix position.  To me and I'm sure 99.99% of the rest of us here it wouldn't be but if thats what they like I won't argue.  I do the same thing at home in my living room.  If I am really listening intently and want to hear the full power of the bass I sit in the center on the couch with the back to the wall.  If I get up and go out of the room the whole house isn't rumbling with bass.  At a reserved seating event it would be a different story but I don't think that the great majority of us here are doing those.  

By the way, I would most likely go with "B" except stacked on the floor instead of the stage.  From your description I beleive this would put the horns right at head level at the very back of the space.  I don't see the point in trying to aim over the heads of the furthest listeners and considering the lower levels in the front those horns would be way too high for those up close.  
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Vince Byrne on June 01, 2007, 07:35:14 pm
Tim Brackett wrote on Fri, 01 June 2007 12:35

Flying subs against the ceiling can give the same half-plane loading as ground stacking and if there are rig points in the center there is no reason they can't be center clustered either.  This could be the best placement in some rooms.

Might not work with a drop ceiling though. Laughing

I'm with you. Done right it could rock.  

On the other hand it's probably more common to find church installs with subs 10 feet off the ceiling as part of a center cluster with 60Hz and 120Hz anamolies everywhere ...

Peace,
Vince
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Aaron Seymour on June 03, 2007, 11:41:44 am
Alright...I ran the "A" set up.  Sounded better than the last time there on the low end....thanks for the suggestions.  The band were extremely loud rock bands so I did have a time getting the vocals on top of the guitars but I managed.  Worst thing about the day is it was close to 100 degrees and I only brought two bottels of water (didn't expect that heat) and forgot to drink more.  I'm freaking beat today and all achy from dehidration.
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Paul Hill on June 04, 2007, 10:50:45 am
Thanks for the update Aaron. I have a similar gig coming up this weekend so I'm gonna do a similar setup to yours.
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Cory 'Rooster' McKinnon on June 04, 2007, 04:15:35 pm
Aaron Seymour wrote on Sun, 03 June 2007 10:41

Alright...I ran the "A" set up.  Sounded better than the last time there on the low end....thanks for the suggestions.  The band were extremely loud rock bands so I did have a time getting the vocals on top of the guitars but I managed.  Worst thing about the day is it was close to 100 degrees and I only brought two bottels of water (didn't expect that heat) and forgot to drink more.  I'm freaking beat today and all achy from dehidration.



I'm glad to hear it worked out.   Cool  Very Happy  Cool
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Aaron Seymour on June 04, 2007, 05:02:19 pm
The girls in bikinis showing up and dancing onstage was a nice diversion too.  I'll post a pic after I download from the camera.
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Aaron Seymour on June 04, 2007, 10:36:21 pm
Alright...in being as pro as possible here is a picture of my set up.  You can see the mains on the stage and the subs coupled down below.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k170/villican/girls.jpg

...and in this one you can see the mains in relationship to the head level of the front row....and that they are being used for a beer stand.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k170/villican/newfb.jpg

...welcome to Austin and a typical gig for me.  Very Happy  
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Peter Etheredge on June 04, 2007, 10:44:30 pm
Aaron Seymour wrote on Mon, 04 June 2007 21:36

Alright...in being as pro as possible here is a picture of my set up.  You can see the mains on the stage and the subs coupled down below.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k170/villican/girls.jpg

...and in this one you can see the mains in relationship to the head level of the front row....and that they are being used for a beer stand.

http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k170/villican/newfb.jpg

...welcome to Austin and a typical gig for me.  Very Happy  



You know we had a "post your racks" thread awhile ago and seeing as I don't see any of these mains or subs that you mentioned I think that this belongs in that thread.

Or as I just not seeing them?  I keep looking and looking but I'm not finding them.  Maybe I'm not looking in the right places or something.  I get the feeling that's the case.

Very Happy
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Bennett Prescott on June 04, 2007, 10:44:54 pm
Women in bikinis, guy with a mullet and his beer in the air... classic.
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Aaron Seymour on June 04, 2007, 10:52:01 pm
Bennett Prescott wrote on Mon, 04 June 2007 21:44

Women in bikinis, guy with a mullet and his beer in the air... classic.


Laughing It was a biker rally....we are all lucky we got the good end of the 50/50 odds of who would be out in a bikini!

BTW - That mullet may be a woman!   Shocked
Title: Re: My first question
Post by: Tony "T" Tissot on June 05, 2007, 01:06:30 am
What subs?

(By the way Bennett - that's not a "mullet" in Texas. It's an outlaw do.)