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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Ian Stuart on April 18, 2011, 08:36:47 AM
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Haha, what a fucking night tonight has been!
So this tosser rock band comes through my club and I'm doing a mix for them.
The bands manager rushes towards me during the bands break.
The guy approached me smiling and starts yapping on about the mix, telling me how amazing it is to see a guy "doing it properly". He told me that he "loved what I did with the guitars and cymbals" and how "the bass sits just right". He bought me a drink and gave me a pat on the back. He also told me that he has been with the band for years and they had never sounded that way before.
See, the thing about this is, the band were so loud that I stripped the mix back to vocals and kick drum. There wasn't anything else in there, I stopped caring and made a few phonecalls outside that I needed to make. everything that he had talked about was natural in the room and from their amps.
On the other hand, the band were up and down. One minute they were happy, the next something different. Fucking kids these days.
Lately, I just sit back and laugh about this kind of shit. It's truly the best medicine.
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See, the thing about this is, the band were so loud that I stripped the mix back to vocals and kick drum.
You used your ears and did the right thing.
Congratulations.
Andre
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Sounds about normal...
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Like I just said in another thread, the use of the word "musician" is too overused. I would just call those kids "performers" and be done with it.
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And calling them retarded is probably offensive to the mentally challenged. I don't consider myself very PC but I am uncomfortable with that word used as a pejorative, while most pejoratives are probably best left between the lines.
JR
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And calling them retarded is probably offensive to the mentally challenged. I don't consider myself very PC but I am uncomfortable with that word used as a pejorative, while most pejoratives are probably best left between the lines.
JR
Indeed. Particularly when "clueless seat-wetter" is typically more applicable to the "performer."
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What can you do hey.
I try to discuss stage volume with the bands, most are pretty good, but every now and then they just don't listen, or sneak the volume up a bit by bit. Other than stop the whole show and ask them to turn down, I just bring them down in the mix the best I can.
Like you said, sometimes you end up with kick and vocals. I just shrug and take my money at the end of the night. It's so much nicer having one of those really fun great sounding gigs, but sometimes you just do what you can.
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Yep, that's at least half of my gigs. Vocals and kick Drum.
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And calling them retarded is probably offensive to the mentally challenged. I don't consider myself very PC but I am uncomfortable with that word used as a pejorative, while most pejoratives are probably best left between the lines.
JR
I agree, but no-body calls the mentally challenged 'retards' anymore. I would never use that word on someone who didn't deserver it. I'd like to take this word back from it's traditional definition. We should write a letter to the dictionary companies and have the definition changed to "a clueless seat-wetter critical of sound at a club".
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watts a musician ?
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Haha, what a fucking night tonight has been!
So this tosser rock band comes through my club and I'm doing a mix for them.
The bands manager rushes towards me during the bands break.
The guy approached me smiling and starts yapping on about the mix, telling me how amazing it is to see a guy "doing it properly". He told me that he "loved what I did with the guitars and cymbals" and how "the bass sits just right". He bought me a drink and gave me a pat on the back. He also told me that he has been with the band for years and they had never sounded that way before.
See, the thing about this is, the band were so loud that I stripped the mix back to vocals and kick drum. There wasn't anything else in there, I stopped caring and made a few phonecalls outside that I needed to make. everything that he had talked about was natural in the room and from their amps.
On the other hand, the band were up and down. One minute they were happy, the next something different. Fucking kids these days.
Lately, I just sit back and laugh about this kind of shit. It's truly the best medicine.
Thats why its called SOUND REINFORCEMENT
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Haha, what a fucking night tonight has been!
So this tosser rock band comes through my club and I'm doing a mix for them.
The bands manager rushes towards me during the bands break.
The guy approached me smiling and starts yapping on about the mix, telling me how amazing it is to see a guy "doing it properly". He told me that he "loved what I did with the guitars and cymbals" and how "the bass sits just right". He bought me a drink and gave me a pat on the back. He also told me that he has been with the band for years and they had never sounded that way before.
See, the thing about this is, the band were so loud that I stripped the mix back to vocals and kick drum. There wasn't anything else in there, I stopped caring and made a few phonecalls outside that I needed to make. everything that he had talked about was natural in the room and from their amps.
On the other hand, the band were up and down. One minute they were happy, the next something different. Fucking kids these days.
Lately, I just sit back and laugh about this kind of shit. It's truly the best medicine.
Just a suggestion. You might want to be careful what you may say, or how you say it about anyone in a forum or particularly this forum. I've noticed that PSW gets indexed by google quite well and when I google my name it most likely links the searchers to my posts. You may not want to work with them again but you may want to keep your reputation up to par. Just saying. Thought it was a worthy point to bring up incase you may be concerned about the negative impact it might potentially have.
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And calling them retarded is probably offensive to the mentally challenged. I don't consider myself very PC but I am uncomfortable with that word used as a pejorative, while most pejoratives are probably best left between the lines.
JR
I agree, but no-body calls the mentally challenged 'retards' anymore. I would never use that word on someone who didn't deserver it. I'd like to take this word back from it's traditional definition. We should write a letter to the dictionary companies and have the definition changed to "a clueless seat-wetter critical of sound at a club".
Thanks for clarifying your intent... and while that matters, the perception of the listener/reader matters too.
There are no good words to use for pejorative insults.
As others have noted, there are more readers than posters here. You own what you post
JR
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As others have noted, there are more readers than posters here. You own what you post
JR
There has been time I've searched for engineers and led me to this forum. I'd hate to see that band look for the OP to seek him out for work and then be very disapointed about this post. I'm sure that is unlikely but it is still possible.
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You own what you post
JR
And vice versa.......
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There are no good words to use for pejorative insults.
What other kind of insult is there?
;)
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There are no good words to use for pejorative insults.
What other kind of insult is there?
;)
Gratuitous, you idiot!!!!
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Many different kinds of insults, but i agree "pejorative insult" is somewhat redundant. I guess it is insulting of me to not expect everybody to grasp what pejorative means without the extra qualifier as a clue.
JR
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...I stopped caring and made a few phonecalls outside that I needed to make...
Does that mean you didn't really give them what they paid for? Aren't you on "their team" while you work for them?
Perhaps you should have spent a few minutes during the break (with the whole band present) explaining how they are ruining their own show by being too loud for the room. That the instruments are far too loud for you to control in the PA. Ask them if they want you to proceed with only bringing vocals up to meet the instruments. If they say yes, then you have their permission to stop trying so hard.
I realize they hired you because you are the audio expert and they are not. They are relying on you to work some magic and make them sound all pro. But, you can only work within the laws of physics and do so much with overkill volume. I would have at least leveled with them on your struggles. That way everyone goes away with some understanding of why the show was a burn.
They may be rookies. Maybe no one has ever explained to them what kind of cooperation a soundman needs from them. Just a suggestion.
(I am not Mr. Perfect. I have had the same exact scenario hundreds of times. I probably didn't handle it so well either.)
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And calling them retarded is probably offensive to the mentally challenged. I don't consider myself very PC but I am uncomfortable with that word used as a pejorative, while most pejoratives are probably best left between the lines.
JR
My day job is working with the Mentally challenged. I run a paper shredding work program that gives them the chance to have a job and a pay check. Its only when you work in this area do you realize how much we all take for granted. Or how much misunderstanding is out there.
It is fine to say a person has Mental Retardation. This is a doctors diagnosis of the condition. An IQ below 70. The odd thing is to be "Normal" an IQ above 75 is required. This puts some in an area where they can't get help because their IQ is above 70 yet below 75. Some people we see walking the streets may fall into this area.
Being in this field I do sometimes frown on the "R" word. But like words used still today for race descriptions it will hopefully someday be just not used anymore.
The saddest thing is allot of the people I work with look up to us. We drive a car, have a home, go out on the weekends. So many things and freedoms they will never have. Just the controled life they live alone would break many "normal" people. The work record and desire to work would put to shame some of the people I have worked with in the past.
Everyday I go to work I am reminded that I need to earn this.
Its just that simple.
Douglas R. Allen
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Does that mean you didn't really give them what they paid for? Aren't you on "their team" while you work for them?
Perhaps you should have spent a few minutes during the break (with the whole band present) explaining how they are ruining their own show by being too loud for the room. That the instruments are far too loud for you to control in the PA. Ask them if they want you to proceed with only bringing vocals up to meet the instruments. If they say yes, then you have their permission to stop trying so hard.
I realize they hired you because you are the audio expert and they are not. They are relying on you to work some magic and make them sound all pro. But, you can only work within the laws of physics and do so much with overkill volume. I would have at least leveled with them on your struggles. That way everyone goes away with some understanding of why the show was a burn.
They may be rookies. Maybe no one has ever explained to them what kind of cooperation a soundman needs from them. Just a suggestion.
(I am not Mr. Perfect. I have had the same exact scenario hundreds of times. I probably didn't handle it so well either.)
After so many years, I'm still enthusiastic and want to give them the best sound possible. But ultimately, what I have to do is keep the client happy. The client, being the club owner/manager doesn't want to hear any shit. period. either from me or the band so this is risky for me.
I've tried in the past to have kind words to the bands and they've NEVER listened so fuck 'em.
In fact, one time after a kind word, the band casually mentioned to the owner whilst being paid about me "changing their sound". The club owner doesn't understand so he had a word to me at the end of the night thinking that this was a bad thing. I'm not trying to change anything if it's going to jeopardize my position, I'm just here to do my job.
In saying this, I love the more professional bands who keep their stage volume in the correct ball-park. They are also 100% more likely to be happier with their sound at the end of the night because they actually know the difference between myself and every other garden variety sound man (and system setup for that matter).
Honestly dude, been there done that. It's not a big loss to me if one band out of 5 or 6 bands during the night shits themselves on stage. As far as the management can tell, if one band out of the 6 sounds shit and I was mixing the whole time, he knows who to blame.
In saying that, If anyone knows any Jedi mind tricks, I'm all ears and willing to give it a go.
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The saddest thing is allot of the people I work with look up to us. We drive a car, have a home, go out on the weekends. So many things and freedoms they will never have. Just the controled life they live alone would break many "normal" people. The work record and desire to work would put to shame some of the people I have worked with in the past.
Everyday I go to work I am reminded that I need to earn this.
Its just that simple.
Douglas R. Allen
Thank you!
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I don't consider myself very PC but I am uncomfortable with that word used as a pejorative, while most pejoratives are probably best left between the lines.
Looking at the history of words used by science to describe such conditions (idiot, moron, imbecile etc.), I wonder if any such word can avoid taking on a pejorative meaning.
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Like I just said in another thread, the use of the word "musician" is too overused. I would just call those kids "performers" and be done with it.
The smartest musician is dumber that the worst soundman. When will they learn?
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"Muscisians and sound people" -- this is a Venus and Mars situation (hopefully, most of you know what Venus and Mars is).
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"Muscisians and sound people" -- this is a Venus and Mars situation
The smartest musician is dumber that the worst soundman.
Well I have done both professionally over a longer period of time than I care to think about, and I have met as many bad sound people as bad musicians! The not-often-spoken fact is that many sound people are want-a-be's who couldn't cut it as a musician! (Boy, that's gonna make me popular here!)
Just the title of this thread displays a very unhealthy attitude about the whole business!
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Whoa, my first post.
Anyhow, I am in college and work for my schools student union. We have music every Friday night in our little club. And by little I mean 50 people max plus the small bar up stairs. Most (if not all) of the music is college bands. Often times it is a bands first time being mic'd so I mention stage volume and how turning down their amps and maybe even using a lighter stick on the drums can help them sound better out front. The bands that want to sound good listen and usually sound great. Those that don't sound like shit and yes, I end up with a mix of just vocals and kick. It is what it is.
I specifically remember one band where I had completely taken everything out of the mix but vocals and still had trouble getting those up. I finally whipped out my meter and clocked the guitarist at 110dB during a solo. and it was a bad 110dB. Very shrill.
All you can do is try and keep it together and just wait for the next band and do it again.
Well I have done both professionally over a longer period of time than I care to think about, and I have met as many bad sound people as bad musicians! The not-often-spoken fact is that many sound people are want-a-be's who couldn't cut it as a musician! (Boy, that's gonna make me popular here!)
Just the title of this thread displays a very unhealthy attitude about the whole business!
I'm not really much of a musician. I've kind of always been a sound person. I haven't been doing this very long (some people have been doing it longer than I've been alive) but I've learned that as much as my job is making it sound good, it is also about making the band happy (maybe that's why I prefer monitors.) Without them we wouldn't have jobs. Even the shitty ones. I'd much rather mix the same shitty bar band every night than sit behind a desk.
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The smartest musician is dumber that the worst soundman. When will they learn?
Felix,
That's ridiculous... I'm seriously hoping that it was a joke and that I missed it. To identify with an adversarial attitude is to guarantee that outcome, I think.
Was it a joke? or do you only deal with very low level performers? As far as intellect, Oscar Petrerson and Keith Jarrett come to mind without even trying - Or Gary Husband... Gee, I hope I missed it...
Best regards,
Bob Charest
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just to remind everyone, i'm an idiot and i play drums !!!
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just to remind everyone, i'm an idiot and i play drums !!!
But we're talking about musicians, not drummers! ;)
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I prefer the term "unenlightened" musicians. Education. It's a task requiring communication, tact, and personality skills which not all sound people are imbued with, regardless of technical prowess. It's a tough environment to try and teach due to time constraints and the ego walls that need to come down. Sometimes impossible, so you just do damage control.
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just to remind everyone, i'm an idiot and i play drums !!!
But we're talking about musicians, not drummers! ;)
oooohhhhhhh well then i'm a stupid dumbace also !!! isnt that awful ? how could that have happened ? see, you should've got the fivefifty tickets in front !!!
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It is fine to say a person has Mental Retardation. This is a doctors diagnosis of the condition. An IQ below 70.
I'm pretty sure I've met many musicians and stagehands that fall into this category...
as for the techs are failed musicians bit...I became a tech because it was more fun to be backstage/at FOH than on stage for me. Could have had a record deal and lived the rockstar life several times, but passed on it to push buttons and faders.
If I had a dollar for every terrible band I've worked for I could retire right now...twice!
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If I had a dollar for every terrible band I've worked for I could retire right now...twice!
when i retired i bought a set of firestone all terrain radials at a blowout sale they was havin with roll over prices and i only had to do it once !!!
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when i retired i bought a set of firestone all terrain radials at a blowout sale they was havin with roll over prices and i only had to do it once !!!
I don't think I would buy tires at a blowout sale no matter how good the deals were.
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Felix,
That's ridiculous... I'm seriously hoping that it was a joke and that I missed it. To identify with an adversarial attitude is to guarantee that outcome, I think.
Was it a joke? or do you only deal with very low level performers? As far as intellect, Oscar Petrerson and Keith Jarrett come to mind without even trying - Or Gary Husband... Gee, I hope I missed it...
Best regards,
Bob Charest
LOL...The fact that you have to even ask if that was a joke is extremely informative. Oh, and, yeah, you missed it.
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boy , i missed it they was handin out brains !!! i just a ........ drummer !
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Felix,
That's ridiculous... I'm seriously hoping that it was a joke and that I missed it. To identify with an adversarial attitude is to guarantee that outcome, I think.
Was it a joke? or do you only deal with very low level performers? As far as intellect, Oscar Petrerson and Keith Jarrett come to mind without even trying - Or Gary Husband... Gee, I hope I missed it...
Best regards,
Bob Charest
LOL...The fact that you have to even ask if that was a joke is extremely informative. Oh, and, yeah, you missed it.
Hi Felix,
Thanks - I'm glad! Sorry if I was dumb, but then (in the spirit of the thread) I'm a musician! :-)
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Thanks - I'm glad! Sorry if I was dumb, but then (in the spirit of the thread) I'm a musician! :-)
[/quote]
No, you're ok. The best soundmen are musicians. There's more to it than just a good mix. One has to know what is musical. You could have a perfect mix, and everything sound like doggie-do.
If you would have heard what a "soundman" once did to the tone of my fiddle, you would concur.
Musician soundman: mixes the band to the vocals/vocalist.
Engineer soundman: mixes everything to the drums.
(If a "soundman" begins a mix with the drums and not the vocals, he/she is not a soundman.)
ok, flame away...you'll lose the argument.
just, Felix
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(If a "soundman" begins a mix with the drums and not the vocals, he/she is not a soundman.
I guess big Mick doesn't qualify as a soundman then...
And no studio engineer knows anything about mixing a band either than...
I've never seen a good tech start with anything except drums (assuming there ARE drums), seeing as how the rhythm section is the foundation...
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I've seen good engineers start with the drums or the vocals or the strings or the "featured instrument". It depends upon many different parts of the gig, including genre and familiarrity with the venue/system. A good engineer gets the mix right but (just as important) also appropriate to the genre. One size does not fit all.
I will confess that I get a bit skeptical when the engineer at an acoustic jazz gig concentrates on the drums, and then spends 5 secs on the horns.
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I've seen good engineers start with the drums or the vocals or the strings or the "featured instrument". It depends upon many different parts of the gig, including genre and familiarrity with the venue/system. A good engineer gets the mix right but (just as important) also appropriate to the genre. One size does not fit all.
I will confess that I get a bit skeptical when the engineer at an acoustic jazz gig concentrates on the drums, and then spends 5 secs on the horns.
I start with the first person on stage who'll pay attention and actually work with me. That said, I seldom get more than line checks.......
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I will confess that I get a bit skeptical when the engineer at an acoustic jazz gig concentrates on the drums, and then spends 5 secs on the horns.
logic dictates that an instrument with 12 mics on it will take considerably more time than an instrument with one mic on it...
just from a 'time spent on this person' point of view...
a few years ago reverend horton heat posted a blog on myspace in regards to the same thing....why do sound guys spend so much time on the drums and so little time on guitars?
simple answer: there's a lot more mics to deal with on a drum kit than any other instrument on stage. it's not that they're the most important, there's simply more inputs there to deal with and the entire kit should sound like a single instrument as opposed to 12 different ones. That in itself can be quite a challenge sometimes.
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logic dictates that an instrument with 12 mics on it will take considerably more time than an instrument with one mic on it...
just from a 'time spent on this person' point of view...
a few years ago reverend horton heat posted a blog on myspace in regards to the same thing....why do sound guys spend so much time on the drums and so little time on guitars?
simple answer: there's a lot more mics to deal with on a drum kit than any other instrument on stage. it's not that they're the most important, there's simply more inputs there to deal with and the entire kit should sound like a single instrument as opposed to 12 different ones. That in itself can be quite a challenge sometimes.
[/quote] you said it buddy ! 10 mics on my drum kit and it takes time to get the levels even so all the drums are blended together in the mix. thats one of my drum kits in the foto and i play hard rock.
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I guess big Mick doesn't qualify as a soundman then...
And no studio engineer knows anything about mixing a band either than...
I've never seen a good tech start with anything except drums (assuming there ARE drums), seeing as how the rhythm section is the foundation...
[/quote]
I didn't say line check. I said a mix. If you mix everything to the drums, you aren't a soundman. period. sorry.
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I start with the first person on stage who'll pay attention and actually work with me. That said, I seldom get more than line checks.......
[/quote]
Absolutely agree with you. Line checks are one thing, and a mix is another. I'ts just that after the drum line checks and whatever goes with that, they leave the drums at that level and try to mix everything to that.
Everything should be mixed to the vocalist, not the other way around.
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I start with the first person on stage who'll pay attention and actually work with me. That said, I seldom get more than line checks.......
Absolutely agree with you. Line checks are one thing, and a mix is another. I'ts just that after the drum line checks and whatever goes with that, they leave the drums at that level and try to mix everything to that.
Everything should be mixed to the vocalist, not the other way around.
I never always do things the same way.....depending on the situation.
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I never always do things the same way.....depending on the situation.
[/quote]
Agreed.
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I never always do things the same way.....depending on the situation.
Agreed.
[/quote]
My point exactly. And (as any "old-school" jazz musician will tel you) a traditional jazz kit doesn't need 11-16 mics. Quite often you'll see 1 OH and a kick. I'm talking Bruebeck-style jazz, not smooth jazz.
The same mic'ing technique does not apply to every genre.
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I guess big Mick doesn't qualify as a soundman then...
And no studio engineer knows anything about mixing a band either than...
I've never seen a good tech start with anything except drums (assuming there ARE drums), seeing as how the rhythm section is the foundation...
[/color]
I didn't say line check. I said a mix. If you mix everything to the drums, you aren't a soundman. period. sorry.
if you mix everything to one particular instrument PERIOD...
and you said start, not mix
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Lots have been said, but I am going to say what I will.
I check drums first for two reasons:
1. They take the most time. As said before, 8-12 mics. (This doesn't mean they are most important)
2. I start with drums on my console. Ch 1-8. I then check 9 (bass) 10(guitar) and so on... If I can, I like to move from channels 1-Whatever in order. Drums are even my first two sub groups. That doesn't mean I consider them most important.
This means vocals last. Hell, I don't usually check vocals (aside from line check) until they play a song in sound check. Why? Because most vocalists don't actually SING until they are with music. I put my mix together here.
I would like to add that whomever was complaining about checking drums first, the drums are one instrument. If I hear 12 different mics then I know I am in the presence of a bad engineer. If I hear a mix centered around drums it could be a talented engineer, just a bit misguided in the art mix.
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I guess big Mick doesn't qualify as a soundman then...
And no studio engineer knows anything about mixing a band either than...
I've never seen a good tech start with anything except drums (assuming there ARE drums), seeing as how the rhythm section is the foundation...
I've worked with "studio guys" that mix well in the studio but crash and burn in a live setting; Big Mick *does* play an instrument or 2 but does not perform; I start with whomever is on stage at the moment unless there is a specific reason to not do so (like IEM mix building... I just follow along).
YMMV and all that...
Tim Mc
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and you said start, not mix
[/quote]
I said mix. You're quoting two sources and crediting one. But, whatever.
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watt do you call a drummer that plays wittout drome(drum) sticks ? slaphappy !!!
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I start with the first person on stage who'll pay attention and actually work with me. That said, I seldom get more than line checks.......
Yup. Summer Festival Season, here we go!!
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Lots have been said, but I am going to say what I will.
I check drums first for two reasons:
1. They take the most time. As said before, 8-12 mics. (This doesn't mean they are most important)
2. I start with drums on my console. Ch 1-8. I then check 9 (bass) 10(guitar) and so on... If I can, I like to move from channels 1-Whatever in order. Drums are even my first two sub groups. That doesn't mean I consider them most important.
This means vocals last. Hell, I don't usually check vocals (aside from line check) until they play a song in sound check. Why? Because most vocalists don't actually SING until they are with music. I put my mix together here.
I would like to add that whomever was complaining about checking drums first, the drums are one instrument. If I hear 12 different mics then I know I am in the presence of a bad engineer. If I hear a mix centered around drums it could be a talented engineer, just a bit misguided in the art mix.
I always try to do vocals first! Why? Open vocal mics on stage will alter the sound of everything else as they pick up as little of everything. Seems kinda backwards to set everything to perfection and then open up a bunch of mics that will alter the entire balance of what's going on on stage.
Keyboards and other stuff that is unable to make sound on their own also get checked early as those musicians are screwed without sound from the system.
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I always try to do vocals first! Why? Open vocal mics on stage will alter the sound of everything else as they pick up as little of everything. Seems kinda backwards to set everything to perfection and then open up a bunch of mics that will alter the entire balance of what's going on on stage.
Keyboards and other stuff that is unable to make sound on their own also get checked early as those musicians are screwed without sound from the system.
I always do my mic check with most mics open. I work with the same rig often enough and in the same space that I can pretty much set my gain trim about where I want it. Plus I always ring out my monitors before the band even gets there so I already have a bit qued up in the wedge too.
I like to get the band to play at least a half song so I can account for all of the stage volume before I get a crowd in and everything changes even more.
That said, I'm glad we're on the same page about mic checking with mics muted (or open as the case may be.) ;)