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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => SR Forum Archives => The Basement FUD Forum Archive => Topic started by: Mark Jastrzebski on December 31, 2010, 12:07:24 AM

Title: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Mark Jastrzebski on December 31, 2010, 12:07:24 AM
Is it me or is this hard to believe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN40LMi0_xA&feature=sub
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Matthew Haber on December 31, 2010, 12:22:04 AM
While I happen to not be much of a SL fan, I can understand where he is coming from in this instance. I have never toured but I would imagine that having to deal with a different mixer every night would be a pretty big pain in the butt. If you a touring with a board that has all your mixes already on it, I would imagine it isn't really practical to use a house board even if the house board is much higher end than what you have. For theatre work (which is what I do), I would take an M7 over any 48 channel analogue Midas regardless of how much outboard you give me since I want to have scene recall for pretty much every parameter everything.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Phil LaDue on December 31, 2010, 12:24:44 AM
It's called advertising.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Justice C. Bigler on December 31, 2010, 01:00:52 AM
Mark Jastrzebski wrote on Thu, 30 December 2010 23:07

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN40LMi0_xA&feature=sub


Hey Paul Gilbert, 1975 called, they want their in-ear-monitors back  Laughing

I'm a StudioLive hater, but I'd rather have it than a Venice 320... Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Michael_Gazdziak on December 31, 2010, 01:01:21 AM
This is very similar to the "Leave it on the truck" thread from a little bit ago.  The tour accountant probably wouldn't be too happy if the gear they acquired for the tour wasn't being used in favor of the house equipment.  

I wonder how long they waited, how many venues with unimpressive house rigs, before they shot the video with the StudioLive next to a Midas, for maximum effect.  
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on December 31, 2010, 01:48:48 AM
Mike Gazdziak wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 00:01

This is very similar to the "Leave it on the truck" thread from a little bit ago.  The tour accountant probably wouldn't be too happy if the gear they acquired for the tour wasn't being used in favor of the house equipment.

This is probably an endorsement deal, which means the band is probably required to use the StudioLive unless circumstances make it difficult or impossible.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on December 31, 2010, 02:03:24 AM
Mike Gazdziak wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 07:01

This is very similar to the "Leave it on the truck" thread from a little bit ago.  The tour accountant probably wouldn't be too happy if the gear they acquired for the tour wasn't being used in favor of the house equipment.  

I wonder how long they waited, how many venues with unimpressive house rigs, before they shot the video with the StudioLive next to a Midas, for maximum effect.  


Probably not very long being that two of the guys in the video stated it was the first date of the tour.

I'd like them to get back to us after 20 gigs.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Don McMeckan on December 31, 2010, 02:59:23 AM
I met Ace a couple of times very briefly when he was working for Tower of Power. The tour they did with Tom Jones about 4 or 5 years ago, Tom Jones' FOH guy had a PM5D, Ace wanted a PM 4000. My how times have changed!

Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Bennett Prescott on December 31, 2010, 10:02:29 AM
Justice C. Bigler wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 01:00

I'm a StudioLive hater, but I'd rather have it than a Venice 320... Rolling Eyes

Me too, but that was no Venice 320. There was also some pretty cash outboard. That video was like watching someone get excited about a Prius.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Dick Rees on December 31, 2010, 10:50:53 AM
Mark Jastrzebski wrote on Thu, 30 December 2010 23:07

Is it me or is this hard to believe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN40LMi0_xA&feature=sub



It's called ADVERTISING..........
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Tim Weaver on December 31, 2010, 11:02:12 AM
I wonder how many SL24's are on the truck as backups? Laughing

If multi tracking live, and quality monitoring is something you're going to spend your own cash on this is the way to go.

 http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/soundcraft_digital_consol es_used_by_flyleaf_for_their_current_us_tour/

These guys put some thought into this rig and it shows. This is a fantastic sounding console package with more flexibility than you would ever use. While it is a lot larger than the SL24, it is quite a compact console package still....


Edit: While I know this piece is ad copy from Soundcraft but I personally know this group, and they really did spend their own money on this setup and spec'd every piece of of the recording and console setup without the help of corporate sponsorship. Just thought I would head that train off track before it ever started.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Vinny D'Agostino on December 31, 2010, 11:04:55 AM
I like Paul Gilbert, but I really hate these cheesy Ad's everyone seems to be doing lately  Crying or Very Sad
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Callan Carnahan on December 31, 2010, 11:36:11 AM
Bennett Prescott wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 10:02

Justice C. Bigler wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 01:00

I'm a StudioLive hater, but I'd rather have it than a Venice 320... Rolling Eyes

Me too, but that was no Venice 320. There was also some pretty cash outboard. That video was like watching someone get excited about a Prius.

Great comparison  Laughing  Question: Why would you take Presonus' built-in comps over a rack of Klark comps and gates?

Answer: Endorsement contract requirements. That SE probably hated the fact that he had to endorse a board that costs a little more than twice of what one of those DN500's costs  Rolling Eyes

Kind of a cheesy ad, though, all things aside. But damn does Paul Gilbert love his big ol' cans!
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on December 31, 2010, 11:44:47 AM
Callan Carnahan wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 17:36

Bennett Prescott wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 10:02

Justice C. Bigler wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 01:00

I'm a StudioLive hater, but I'd rather have it than a Venice 320... Rolling Eyes

Me too, but that was no Venice 320. There was also some pretty cash outboard. That video was like watching someone get excited about a Prius.

Great comparison  Laughing  Question: Why would you take Presonus' built-in comps over a rack of Klark comps and gates?

Answer: Endorsement contract requirements. That SE probably hated the fact that he had to endorse a board that costs a little more than twice of what one of those DN500's costs  Rolling Eyes

Kind of a cheesy ad, though, all things aside. But damn does Paul Gilbert love his big ol' cans!


If they were hell-bent on multi-track recording wouldn't sticking with the exsiting mixer be the quickest and easiest way to do it in every venue?

I have actually used a 01v96 in a venue that had a MH3 with outboard for the simple reason of not stepping on the other act's toes.  Worked fine for me, and I assume them, too.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Greg Cameron on December 31, 2010, 01:07:56 PM
Don McMeckan wrote on Thu, 30 December 2010 23:59

I met Ace a couple of times very briefly when he was working for Tower of Power. The tour they did with Tom Jones about 4 or 5 years ago, Tom Jones' FOH guy had a PM5D, Ace wanted a PM 4000. My how times have changed!


When I saw Tom at the dinner theater in Vegas several years ago, a PM4000 is exactly what they had at FOH. Great show. Tom is one of the best live shows I've ever been to I'd have to say. That little ol' man can sure belt it out after all these years. Probably gets laid proper on a regular basis by much younger fans judging by the crowd response.

Greg
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Mike Christy on December 31, 2010, 01:44:55 PM
It pretty clear to me that they are ( going to try) using the SL for recording only, and they say nothing of actually engaging any of the onboard comps. No one in their right mind would do that (hard squishing) for tracking, but then the way MP3s sound nowadays, why not?
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Don McMeckan on December 31, 2010, 02:35:32 PM
Tom Jones with TOP was one of the first shows n our new arena.  am a HUGE TOP fan, but was blown away by Tom's show. Sings all styles, perfect pitch control, and made fun of the whole throwing the panties on the stage.

Ace's mix , unfortunately, was mostly distortion. Probably a function of the PM 4000 going through a couple channels on the PM5D, and trying to get past the limiting in the system, but it could be any number of things.

Thanks,       Don
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: John Cameron on December 31, 2010, 04:08:17 PM
Mike Christy wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 13:44

It pretty clear to me that they are ( going to try) using the SL for recording only, and they say nothing of actually engaging any of the onboard comps. No one in their right mind would do that (hard squishing) for tracking, but then the way MP3s sound nowadays, why not?


You can select the direct firewire outs to be pre fat channel.

John
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Jason Phair on January 01, 2011, 04:22:03 PM
Don McMeckan wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 14:35



Ace's mix , unfortunately, was mostly distortion. Probably a function of the PM 4000 going through a couple channels on the PM5D



Right, because Digital = Distortion, right?
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Don McMeckan on January 01, 2011, 05:51:31 PM
Jason Phair wrote on Sat, 01 January 2011 21:22

Don McMeckan wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 14:35



Ace's mix , unfortunately, was mostly distortion. Probably a function of the PM 4000 going through a couple channels on the PM5D



Right, because Digital = Distortion, right?



OR, the PM5D channels being low, and Ace trying to get more SPL when none was forthcoming! ( There was no one manning the PM5D during their set. )

The only analog mixer I own is a Peavey 16 x 6 monitor mixer, which could be older than you! Of course, you would have to be 30 yrs. or younger.


Thanks,        Don



Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Cole R. Lofink on January 02, 2011, 12:55:12 PM
Bennett Prescott wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 10:02

Justice C. Bigler wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 01:00

I'm a StudioLive hater, but I'd rather have it than a Venice 320... Rolling Eyes

That video was like watching someone get excited about a Prius.


It's probably the first digital console he's ever seen....."I remember my first beer".
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Nick Aghababian on January 02, 2011, 02:42:56 PM
I've worked with Ace before when he came through with Colin Hay and it sounded great. I've also worked with the Toysonus and I don't like it for sonic reasons only (aka stuff that 95% of people don't give a shit about). It's  just a tool to mix sound however good or bad that sound is, and come on, it's Paul Gilbert.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Steve Payne on January 02, 2011, 04:56:52 PM
Bennett Prescott wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 10:02[/quote


That video was like watching someone get excited about a Prius.


Laughing  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing
Love it!
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: John Chiara on January 03, 2011, 02:24:04 AM
:[/quote] Question: Why would you take Presonus' built-in comps over a rack of Klark comps and gates?

[/quote]
Ummm.....because the Klark comps and gates suck?
Yep....I said it...sorry... Cool
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Evan F. Hunter on January 03, 2011, 02:48:26 AM
Jason Phair wrote on Sat, 01 January 2011 15:22

Don McMeckan wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 14:35



Ace's mix , unfortunately, was mostly distortion. Probably a function of the PM 4000 going through a couple channels on the PM5D



Right, because Digital = Distortion, right?



He was probably talking about clipping the individual channels at the inputs/mic pres, which on digital or analogue equals distortion.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Jason J Raboin on January 03, 2011, 09:53:28 AM
I have had my SC48 sit next to an H3000, XL4, etc..   Consistency is king.  The extra time that the band would have to be on stage dialing in the other console isn't worth it to me or them.

I've even had my SC48 sit next to another SC48.  Unless your SC48 has Massey plug ins, and a mac mini hooked up for multi-tracking with a KVM switch, we're using mine.

There is also the production reimbursement to think about.  Most artists who carry production get a separate, non commissioned payment from the promoter because they do not need to rent gear, hire extra techs, etc.  Deciding to use the house gear at the last minute isn't as easy a decision as some people on this board make it out to be.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 03, 2011, 10:02:04 AM
Jason  J Raboin wrote on Mon, 03 January 2011 08:53

I have had my SC48 sit next to an H3000, XL4, etc..   Consistency is king.  The extra time that the band would have to be on stage dialing in the other console isn't worth it to me or them.

I've even had my SC48 sit next to another SC48.  Unless your SC48 has Massey plug ins, and a mac mini hooked up for multi-tracking with a KVM switch, we're using mine.

There is also the production reimbursement to think about.  Most artists who carry production get a separate, non commissioned payment from the promoter because they do not need to rent gear, hire extra techs, etc.  Deciding to use the house gear at the last minute isn't as easy a decision as some people on this board make it out to be.


That is, indeed, a valid concern for the artist or whoever is renting gear to the artist.  It is also a concern for the one-off provider who provides a service that includes consoles, snakes, etc., and the slime-ball promoters who expect a discount because the headliner is carrying desks.

Yes, I've had those phone calls, and no, I don't yield... but it's one more way to squeeze the local firms out of the last bit of profitability they might enjoy.

There are no easy answers, but I fully support an act carrying desks for the sake of repeatability.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Bennett Prescott on January 03, 2011, 12:02:12 PM
Evan F. Hunter wrote on Mon, 03 January 2011 02:48

He was probably talking about clipping the individual channels, which on digital or analogue equals distortion. Especially if they had XLR in through the mic pres. And Digital sounds worst when it clips IMO.

Evan,

Your new light is on.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Stavross (Sam Buck) on January 03, 2011, 12:45:31 PM
I bet their TM is the Shamwow guy.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on January 03, 2011, 01:58:10 PM
Bennett Prescott wrote on Mon, 03 January 2011 18:02

Evan F. Hunter wrote on Mon, 03 January 2011 02:48

He was probably talking about clipping the individual channels, which on digital or analogue equals distortion. Especially if they had XLR in through the mic pres. And Digital sounds worst when it clips IMO.

Evan,

Your new light is on.


Yeah, but...

Bennett, not jumping on you personally here as I saw this thread weer coming when the PM5D comment was first posted:

This is a typical LAB moment, though; one of the "juniors" words something slightly wrong and all the "seniors" get to mock and taunt the wording rather than stay focused on the actual message.

I'd say anyone who's been around the block has seen the situation where one mixer is being fed into another and there are either noise or distortion issues due to the fact that at the time when the gain was set on the second mixer, the signal present on the output of the first mixer wasn't indicative of what it turned out to be during the show.  This is the reason for half the DJ-related problems sound people keep complaining about, too.

Yes, it CAN work perfectly fine to cascade one mixer into another input, but there might be gain issues either before the input stage of the second mixer or within it.  Sometimes this can be corrected smoothly mid-show.  Sometimes not.

I fail to see how it's such a stretch of the imagination that this is what whoever posted about the PM5D meant.

Happy new year everyone!

Kristian  



Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Don McMeckan on January 03, 2011, 03:45:27 PM
Kristian Johnsen wrote on Mon, 03 January 2011 18:58

Bennett Prescott wrote on Mon, 03 January 2011 18:02

Evan F. Hunter wrote on Mon, 03 January 2011 02:48

He was probably talking about clipping the individual channels, which on digital or analogue equals distortion. Especially if they had XLR in through the mic pres. And Digital sounds worst when it clips IMO.

Evan,

Your new light is on.


Yeah, but...

Bennett, not jumping on you personally here as I saw this thread weer coming when the PM5D comment was first posted:

This is a typical LAB moment, though; one of the "juniors" words something slightly wrong and all the "seniors" get to mock and taunt the wording rather than stay focused on the actual message.

I'd say anyone who's been around the block has seen the situation where one mixer is being fed into another and there are either noise or distortion issues due to the fact that at the time when the gain was set on the second mixer, the signal present on the output of the first mixer wasn't indicative of what it turned out to be during the show.  This is the reason for half the DJ-related problems sound people keep complaining about, too.

Yes, it CAN work perfectly fine to cascade one mixer into another input, but there might be gain issues either before the input stage of the second mixer or within it.  Sometimes this can be corrected smoothly mid-show.  Sometimes not.

I fail to see how it's such a stretch of the imagination that this is what whoever posted about the PM5D meant.

Happy new year everyone!

Kristian  





Thanks Kristian, that is exactly what I meant in my original comment on Ace's mix. I guess I was giving him the benifit of the doubt on proper gain structure in the PM 4000.

However, I was not the system tech, just a concert goer, so who knows what ,if any , problems there were.

I talked to Tom Jones' FOH tech briefly after the show while they were tearing down, he said the room sounded much different empty than full.

Just to be clear TOP at Dimitriou's in Seattle was an excellent mix, clear and undistorted, so I was doing some Speculatin'!

Thanks,      Don
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Greg Cameron on January 03, 2011, 04:20:53 PM
Don McMeckan wrote on Mon, 03 January 2011 12:45

I talked to Tom Jones' FOH tech briefly after the show while they were tearing down, he said the room sounded much different empty than full.


I find that to be the case about 100% of the time. Nothing like a room full of warm meat sacks and warmer air to really clean up the sound. In my particular room, the difference is massive. During sound checks, the venue staff tends to whine about things being too loud and not all that intelligible. They are correct. Stage volume is a big part of the problem. Get several hundred warm bodies in there, and it's a whole different ballgame. I can actually give the system some gas and push up thing in the mix that would otherwise sound harsh in an empty room. Everything sounds more tight. If it were at all feasible, I'd cancel shows that didn't sell well enough to fill the venue more than halfway Wink

Greg
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Michael Ace Baker on January 04, 2011, 03:17:25 PM
Howdy fellas,

Ace here....don't want to start any trouble.....just thought I'd make a few points.

First of all, what's wrong with the Prius?

Secondly, Jason had it right when he said that consistency is key....when you are doing a European "rock club" tour, you are dealing with a different pa, challenging rooms, and sometimes, a House Tech that doesn't understand English. Bringing my own console gave me a great starting point every day. If somebody doesn't understand that concept, I'm guessing that they haven't done much touring.

Thirdly, Bennett Prescott....you sell speakers and system tech.....I'm guessing that means that you don't actually "mix" bands....let me ask you this: What if I was working with a band that was playing that big Rock Otočec concert that is on the ADRaudio website?....And what if, when I advanced the show, I told them that I NEEDED to use V-DOSC only.....since they are the best...??? Wouldn't you get on the phone and tell me that I should give your speakers a try at least?......So why would you perpetuate this mindset that Midas is the only choice?

And lastly, Cole Lofink.....no, it wasn't my first digital console....although it MAY have been, if I had only worked with your company, Sonus.....I saw that you rent mostly Allen and Heath 24 channel analog consoles.....your "concert system" features a M7CL....curiously, no Midas. It seems to me that a company like yours could benefit from owning a couple StudioLive's....inexpensive, small, multi-tracking capabilities....or are you just too attached to that the Allen and Heath sound?

I will be at NAMM at the PreSonus booth talking about my tour with the StudioLive at 4 pm on Thurs., Fri., and Sat.....If anyone has any questions about my choice or experience with the console, I will be happy to talk about it.

Oh.....and I don't remember any distortion in Vancouver....but I DID have some feedback in Florida in 2007.

Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Bennett Prescott on January 04, 2011, 03:30:19 PM
Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 15:17

Thirdly, Bennett Prescott....you sell speakers and system tech.....I'm guessing that means that you don't actually "mix" bands....let me ask you this: What if I was working with a band that was playing that big Rock Otočec concert that is on the ADRaudio website?....And what if, when I advanced the show, I told them that I NEEDED to use V-DOSC only.....since they are the best...??? Wouldn't you get on the phone and tell me that I should give your speakers a try at least?......So why would you perpetuate this mindset that Midas is the only choice?

Hey Ace, welcome to the LAB!

I do mix, certainly not as frequently as you do, but a couple dozen times a year.

Obviously I believe that the products ADRaudio makes are some of the best in the world, and I do whatever i can to introduce people to them. One would assume that, at a large festival, one would use whatever PA was provided. Certainly the advance proceedings at that festival found the ADRaudio L103 line arrays to be acceptable to all, although I was not involved. A half million dollars worth of PA that everyone is going to use is a very different situation than a console costing a few thousand dollars that just you are going to use.

I don't think I have ever suggested that Midas is the only choice. While I like their gear, I think they've stopped making all the gear I really like. I have no experience on the new Pro series or the XL8. Besides, I really don't like the Venice, but that doesn't mean I have a problem with Midas. I just think that one product is crap.

I appreciate your promotional position with PreSonus and I'm glad that you can get the product to do what you want, and are excited about it. It is not for me.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Michael Ace Baker on January 04, 2011, 03:37:57 PM
Can I ask why the StudioLive is not for you?
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Dick Rees on January 04, 2011, 03:44:52 PM
Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 14:37

Can I ask why the StudioLive is not for you?


index.php/fa/34577/0/

Uh-oh.........
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Cole R. Lofink on January 04, 2011, 03:45:50 PM
Hi Michael,

Good to see you on the forms. I'm waiting for Bennett, to post a that picture of the chill pills, LOL. Know one here is attacking you personally. A good amount of gear bashing and shi*t talking goes on around here, it is just part of this form. I completely agree with you that my company could benefit from a StudioLive 24, it seems like a kick ass little console for the price. I'm sure your a good engineer, you got a gig and a gear endorsement, so life must be pretty good. I hope you stick around this form as it can always benefit from more professionals.

I understand where your coming from an H3K isn't always the right tool for the job. For you the consistency of the Studiolive beats out the quality of the Midas. For me the price of the A&H beats out the cost/features of a Midas.
BUT would I rather have a Midas.....YES!
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Bennett Prescott on January 04, 2011, 03:59:49 PM
Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 15:37

Can I ask why the StudioLive is not for you?

If I had to pick one reason, it would be the same complaint I have with all the low-market digital, not enough physical controls or space. That is certainly much less of an issue with a band that you know and have set up, but I almost never have the luxury of running the same act on the same desk more than once in a row.

I also hate to see it going into applications where a more capable desk is needed, but because this is now available for what it costs to hire an engineer to run it for a few days, the StudioLive is substituted. Of course, trying to fight against market forces is a losing battle.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Michael Ace Baker on January 04, 2011, 04:11:30 PM
Bennett, in your own words, "your new light is on".

The StudioLive is nothing BUT physical controls....once you set your effects and initial settings in the screen, you don't have to look at it again for the rest of the show. EVERYTHING is a button, a fader, a knob.....have you ever even used the desk?....I'm guessing not.

It's just strange to me that a guy who has never used the console would go on a website and criticize it.....that doesn't seem odd to you?

Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Bennett Prescott on January 04, 2011, 04:17:58 PM
Michael,

I should have been clearer. I have used the StudioLive 16. Can I adjust an aux on one channel while adjusting the EQ on another? How about adjusting the EQ on two channels simultaneously? Can I sweep up variable high passes at the same time?

The extra second or two it takes to select the channel I want to affect can be significant. When I have four front line SM58s that need to be ready now, how quickly can I get in my EQ, dynamics, gain, and high pass settings? Furthermore, how can I see what those settings are for each channel at the same time?
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: John Cameron on January 04, 2011, 04:20:44 PM
Every tool has its use, I am a studiolive 24.4.2 lover but keep in mind I just upgraded from the original Yamaha 01V. I’ve been doing more and more live recordings and found myself bringing a split snake and a rack of MOTU 8-pre’s. I was able to sell that rack when I got the studiolive. For what I do it is the best tool I could find for the price. I will never say it’ll do a better job than a Midas or Digico but for the price it probably can’t be beat.
I agree that some of the controls are a bit hard to navigate on the console but once you get VSL up and running  things are so much more at your fingertips.

As for the sound I think it sounds great, you can be the judge on my first live recording.

http://soundcloud.com/studiolive_24-4-2/studiolive-main-l-r

John
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Lee Brenkman on January 04, 2011, 04:28:40 PM
First off I'm really happy that Ace has checked in here and engaged in some dialog with Bennett.

I have, for a while been using a Yamaha O1V-96 and the cost effective ADA8000 for the bands I work with regularly even when a bigger console is available.  My choice was based on three factors

1) already had it
2) I find the moving faders more useful than the reset prompts on the Presonus
3) other acts on the same bill are often really pleased that I only need 2 input channels on the "big board" instead of 20.

And Bennett does have a valid point when he said

Bennett Prescott wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 13:17

Michael,

I should have been clearer. I have used the StudioLive 16. Can I adjust an aux on one channel while adjusting the EQ on another? How about adjusting the EQ on two channels simultaneously? Can I sweep up variable high passes at the same time?

The extra second or two it takes to select the channel I want to affect can be significant. When I have four front line SM58s that need to be ready now, how quickly can I get in my EQ, dynamics, gain, and high pass settings? Furthermore, how can I see what those settings are for each channel at the same time?


The ability to adjust "two things on two separate channels at the same time" was REALLY important to Richard Thompson's FOH guy when they played at and recorded their recent live album in SF.

That's why, for those nights, the in house Yamaha digital console was replaced by an APB analog board and a rack of dynamic processors.

It's the old "horses for courses" thing.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: John Chiara on January 04, 2011, 04:39:44 PM
John Cameron wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 16:20

Every tool has its use, I am a studiolive 24.4.2 lover but keep in mind I just upgraded from the original Yamaha 01V. I’ve been doing more and more live recordings and found myself bringing a split snake and a rack of MOTU 8-pre’s. I was able to sell that rack when I got the studiolive. For what I do it is the best tool I could find for the price. I will never say it’ll do a better job than a Midas or Digico but for the price it probably can’t be beat.
I agree that some of the controls are a bit hard to navigate on the console but once you get VSL up and running  things are so much more at your fingertips.

As for the sound I think it sounds great, you can be the judge on my first live recording.

http://soundcloud.com/studiolive_24-4-2/studiolive-main-l-r

John


I just talked my church into a Studiolive 24.4.2 for the same reasons. They were set to buy a 16 channel interface for multitrack recording...we have been having issues with other users of the room hitting and changing monitor eq's...and it was gonna be hard to teach volunteers the ins and outs of all the analog patching..etc.. Now we can hopefully set up presets for the 4 worship bands, and any volunteer will have a basic starting point at the push of a scene button. The easy multitrack ability is the no brainer here.

John
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Dick Rees on January 04, 2011, 04:41:19 PM
Bennett Prescott wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 15:17

Michael,

I should have been clearer. I have used the StudioLive 16. Can I adjust an aux on one channel while adjusting the EQ on another? How about adjusting the EQ on two channels simultaneously? Can I sweep up variable high passes at the same time?

The extra second or two it takes to select the channel I want to affect can be significant. When I have four front line SM58s that need to be ready now, how quickly can I get in my EQ, dynamics, gain, and high pass settings? Furthermore, how can I see what those settings are for each channel at the same time?


I own and use both the StudioLive and the Venice consoles.  I will second Bennetts citation of the need to have all controls at hand all the time.  That is often the make/break point for me.

That said, both have their +'s and -'s, both make me $$$ and no matter which one I take out I have a back-up board in the van.....

Edit:

Apostrophectomy
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Michael Ace Baker on January 04, 2011, 05:08:37 PM
Hi Bennett,

So, if your problem is that you prefer to see all channels at all times, then your issue really isn't with the StudioLive console, it's with digital boards in general right? I mean, even the "big boy boards" only let you adjust one channel at a time.....so I'm guessing that you're an analog guy, which is fine....when Earth, Wind and Fire calls and offers you the Monitor gig using their D5 (which they already have In Ear settings dialed in for), you can just tell them that you don't like digital and send them to me.

But just for discussion's sake.....why would you need to change an Aux setting at the same exact time that you are changing an eq setting?....If you are using the StudioLive as a FOH console, your aux sends are mainly for effects or front fills....how many times during a show do you change those?.... maybe once, probably never.

And "4 front line 58's that have to be ready now? .....Really???....THAT'S what you're worried about??.....You can't get that together quickly?.....that's funny. I guess that's why you sell speakers and I mix bands.....Anyway, you'll be happy to know that PreSonus has been kind enough to store "Presets" in the board to help get you up and going....kick, snare, toms, and....you got it....VOCAL!

Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Stavross (Sam Buck) on January 04, 2011, 05:17:16 PM
Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 16:08


Anyway, you'll be happy to know that PreSonus has been kind enough to store "Presets" in the board to help get you up and going....kick, snare, toms, and....you got it....VOCAL!




Presets are great, but for me personally a digital board without recallable preamps is a no go.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Bennett Prescott on January 04, 2011, 05:38:57 PM
Ace,

Earth Wind and Fire is not going to call me. I am sure they already have an engineer, and if they are looking for one I would not apply for the job. I am a passable monitor engineer, but I do not want to do it in the big leagues.

I regularly mix on digital consoles. There are several that will allow me the level of control I desire, my favorite being the Soundcraft Vi series. When more people make digital desks that let me do more than one thing at a time I will like more digital desks. Digital is not the problem, the control surface is.

When I am not tuning systems or directing crew I am mixing openers or babysitting other engineers. It is hard to help another engineer get their house in order when any correction you make takes over the desk. I also mix Artists You Have Heard Of™ in monitor world from time to time, at events that are not proper concerts. They expect a level of service that requires I keep my eyes on them at all times, so being able to look in one place while adjusting in one or two others is a must. When working these types of shows often two engineers are working with the same desk at the same time, one troubleshooting and one mixing, or one mixing the star and one mixing everyone else. I much prefer analog in monitor world for this reason.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on January 04, 2011, 06:39:56 PM
Ace.

Great that you could chime in!

I hope you are at liberty to answer as per your own opinion.

Surprisingly many users of the LAB have reported on Presonus mixers "acting up" and doing funny stuff, like going dead, outputting horrible noises or just freezing for a moment.  

You have obviously been on the road with this mixer:  Were you ever set up with the same mixer for any duration of time, or did you get new ones all the time?  The reason I'm asking is that it would be interesting to know how they stand up to the "rigors of the road" and if they can take the punishment of getting handled over and over, temperature swings, inevitable drops, etc.

Another thing a lot of people have complained about is the lack of moving faders.  I realize one uses encoders above the faders for AUX changes, etc, but for mixing a multi band bill, each having their own soundcheck, wouldn't it be nicer if all the house levels just popped right back where you had them at the end of soundcheck?

Now, for the real question:  Would you put this mixer on your regular rider, knowing fully well that you won't know what the mixer the provider gets you has been through?  Is it THAT reliable?

Best regards from Norway,

Kristian
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Matthew Haber on January 04, 2011, 06:52:53 PM
Kristian Johnsen wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 17:39

I hope you are at liberty to answer as per your own opinion.


What kind of endorsement arrangement would allow for that? Not one that most manufacturers are going to like, IMHO.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Dick Rees on January 04, 2011, 07:00:51 PM
Stavross (Sam Buck) wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 16:17

Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 16:08


Anyway, you'll be happy to know that PreSonus has been kind enough to store "Presets" in the board to help get you up and going....kick, snare, toms, and....you got it....VOCAL!




Presets are great, but for me personally a digital board without recallable preamps is a no go.


Presets are fine.  I ignore all the Presonus ones and made my own, but even then they are just a "shotgun" approach and need tweaking to taste in each situation.  For those who have little or no experience the stock ones may avail.  For wider and varied applications I prefer to dial things in as needed.

The thing that makes me less than comfortable at this stage of the "discussion" is that opinions are being posted by a user who, if not a paid employee of the company, at least derives certain sponsorial benefits and has a somewhat vested interest in spouting the company line.

I thought such posting was not exactly kosher.......
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on January 04, 2011, 07:03:56 PM
Matthew Haber wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 00:52

Kristian Johnsen wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 17:39

I hope you are at liberty to answer as per your own opinion.


What kind of endorsement arrangement would allow for that? Not one that most manufacturers are going to like, IMHO.


If Presonus REALLY believe in their product they won't feel compelled to ask the endorsee (is that a word?) to not speak their mind, would they?

So in a sense, I guess your question is also a test of the product Rolling Eyes
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on January 04, 2011, 07:08:28 PM
Dick Rees wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 01:00

Stavross (Sam Buck) wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 16:17

Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 16:08


Anyway, you'll be happy to know that PreSonus has been kind enough to store "Presets" in the board to help get you up and going....kick, snare, toms, and....you got it....VOCAL!




Presets are great, but for me personally a digital board without recallable preamps is a no go.


Presets are fine.  I ignore all the Presonus ones and made my own, but even then they are just a "shotgun" approach and need tweaking to taste in each situation.  For those who have little or no experience the stock ones may avail.  For wider and varied applications I prefer to dial things in as needed.

The thing that makes me less than comfortable at this stage of the "discussion" is that opinions are being posted by a user who, if not a paid employee of the company, at least derives certain sponsorial benefits and has a somewhat vested interest in spouting the company line.

I thought such posting was not exactly kosher.......


Generally speaking...

Whether I'm preparing for a gig on my computer or fiddling with an anolog desk before soundcheck:  The EQs, etc have to be in some position, anyway, right?  So I figure one way is as bad as the other, but no real need for everything to start "flat", just because.  

For me, this "some" position tends to be how I know from experience that the channel tends to end up given the mic, the source and the musical content.  I haven't made presets yet, but just might after this discussion.

Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Jay Barracato on January 04, 2011, 07:48:19 PM
Well I guess I am going to find out. My school (where I have no official sound related duties) just bought a studiolive 24 to replace a 15+ year old Ramsa analog board. I used to get regular "how do we ..." phone calls about the analog board and I am sure no one in the school system other than me really knows how to use any but the most obvious features on the digital.

We also got a new set of 3 db DVA's plus 1 sub box per side for the auditorium. At least the speakers were professionally installed.

I think I have exactly 3 shows on studiolives, so the jury is still out for me. I haven't really decided if I love it or I hate it, but what I do remember not liking during the shows I did was having to look away from the knobs to see what functions they were set to control. The moving eq channels on the graphics really bothered me. I have similar dislikes about the 01V and LS9. So it may be my analog background showing, but I can understand Bennett's point about the control surface, because any encoder with more than one function really slows me down. That may be a function of practice, but I also think it is related to the consols because I did not hav ethe same problems when learning to use the Digico or the venue boards,
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Michael Ace Baker on January 04, 2011, 07:52:39 PM
Hello Mr. Rees,

I am sorry that I make you feel uncomfortable by weighing in on this discussion, and if you guys would like, I will leave this website and you can carry on discussing this desk without me.

But let me just say this: I don't work for PreSonus. Any piece of gear that they have given to me they were actually giving to the Artist. When I left Tower of Power, I left them the recording rig that PreSonus gave them. The recording rig that they gave me to use for Sammy Hagar lives in Michael Anthony's locker. Besides getting to use the gear while I'm out, I don't get anything. As a matter of fact, the last 3 PreSonus products that I picked up last year were from Guitar Center....not even a discount!

In November, I was in a situation where I had a 40 day European rock club tour. The Artist (Paul Gilbert) was interested in recording all of his shows. I also know that trying to figure out how to run a recording split off of 41 different consoles would be impossible....some boards have 1/4" direct outs, some boards have XLR out, some boards have NO outs and would require 24 XLR "y" cables...it was obvious that if I wanted to multitrack everyday, it would be best to bring a board.

I knew that the clubs that we would be playing in would have small sound booths and that House Engineers were not going to dig me coming in and telling them to move their desk. I also knew that being a small rock club (with a lot of sold out shows), Promoters were not going to let me take up any extra customer seating. Plus....it wasn't my 1st European tour....I knew that there would be stairs.....lots and lots of stairs to carry the gear up and down. I needed something small, something reliable, easy and with multi-tracking capabilities.....when I looked at my options, the StudioLive seemed perfect.

I am happy to report that the desk worked great. It NEVER crashed.....not once. It never froze.....not once. It survived a freezing trailer, smoky Romanian clubs, and bumpy Grecian roads.....no problems.  The House engineers thought it was great that they didn't have to move anything, the band was happy with the consistency of their monitors....soundcheck times were held to a minimum, and NOT ONCE did a paying customer come to the console and say that the mix didn't sound like a Midas.....PLUS, at the end of the tour I was able to hand Paul 80 hours of multi-tracked shows....which made him happy. That is the truth.....100%.

Now if you'd like to continue discussing the StudioLive with people who have never used it, go ahead, I'll stop chiming in......but anybody who'd like to discuss the board with someone who actually used and toured with it, feel free to email me or catch up with me at NAMM......I'll even buy you a shot of tequila if you can tell me a better way I could have done things last November......but it's got to be Cabo Wabo, of course!

I've got to go wash the Prius now....
Ace
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Dick Rees on January 04, 2011, 09:01:52 PM
Ace...

Thanks for the clarification on your relationship with the artist and Presonus.  Even though some of us have been in the business on one side of the mic or the other for over 50 years there are many different "compartments" for musicians and tech folks and we don't always know who's who or has done what without either a little research or a formal introduction.

As I said, I own and use a StudioLive board.  It is what it is and has some very useful features depending on the situation.  Your use for a single artist over a tour and the recording requirement fits the SLive feature set to a "T".  I'm never in that situation but still find the desk handy for quick one-offs where I want to carry a minimum of gear.  I'm looking forward to utilizing the multi-track recording capability this coming year.  For the work that I do with live broadcast and mixing live audio for feed to video cameras I still prefer my analog rack rig as these gigs generally allow me enough time and proper access for loading in.

I would love to use the SLive for the little theater gigs that I do, but the muting of the sound for the (slow) scene changes is a deal-breaker for this use.

It's good to get a report on the road-worthiness.  But for the jobs where all the inputs are mics (folk and classical ensembles/orchestras) I'll still take the pre's in the Midas over most anything I can find.

DR
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Matthew Haber on January 04, 2011, 09:12:09 PM
Dick Rees wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 20:01


I would love to use the SLive for the little theater gigs that I do, but the muting of the sound for the (slow) scene changes is a deal-breaker for this use.


Agreed. I think the SL could see pretty widespread acceptance among the GL2400/community theatre crowd if they could get this fixed and add moving faders. They could even add a few hundred bucks to the price tag for this added functionality and have it still fit within a reasonable price point for this market.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Bennett Prescott on January 04, 2011, 09:21:08 PM
Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 19:52

...and NOT ONCE did a paying customer come to the console and say that the mix didn't sound like a Midas.

To be fair, Ace, if anyone can prove to me that has ever happened to them while mixing on any console, I will buy them a bottle of tequila. Patron Anejo, Cabo Wabo whatever, or Corazon. First come, first served, of course... it's the winter.

You are not the only one touring with this console. Last time I saw it was at monitors, mixing in-ears, shortly after the 24.4.2 came out. This was for an Act Your Kids Have Heard Of™.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on January 04, 2011, 09:26:13 PM
Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 18:52

I knew that the clubs that we would be playing in would have small sound booths and that House Engineers were not going to dig me coming in and telling them to move their desk. I also knew that being a small rock club (with a lot of sold out shows), Promoters were not going to let me take up any extra customer seating. Plus....it wasn't my 1st European tour....I knew that there would be stairs.....lots and lots of stairs to carry the gear up and down. I needed something small, something reliable, easy and with multi-tracking capabilities.....when I looked at my options, the StudioLive seemed perfect.

You point out a number of logistical advantages to a small mix console with these capabilities.

I assume it is correct that PreSonus supplied the desk for the tour under a pretty typical endorsement arrangement.

If you could have had any other desk or gear package under a similar arrangement, but still had the same amount of labor and same venues/logistics, would you have picked any other product, for example, SC48?  Is it your statement that the portability of the SL made it a very compelling choice vs any other possible setup?

Any cons or moments that made you wish for a different desk or additional equipment?
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Dave Bjornson on January 06, 2011, 10:39:20 PM
Bennett Prescott wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 20:59

Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 15:37

Can I ask why the StudioLive is not for you?

If I had to pick one reason, it would be the same complaint I have with all the low-market digital, not enough physical controls or space. That is certainly much less of an issue with a band that you know and have set up, but I almost never have the luxury of running the same act on the same desk more than once in a row.

I also hate to see it going into applications where a more capable desk is needed, but because this is now available for what it costs to hire an engineer to run it for a few days, the StudioLive is substituted. Of course, trying to fight against market forces is a losing battle.

O please let me tell you why they're not for me!!!
I own two which I purchased without evaluating for a last minute show, and I've never recorded ONE SHOW successfully. Dropouts galore, on different tracks at different times, tested with multiple drives and laptops tweeked for multimedia use.  Cross your fingers when you plug in the firewire cable as it freezes both my desks over 50% of the time. God forbid you try and actually link the consoles together, as the odds go down from there. After 10 shows, the faders on the older console already feel quirky compared to the new one. Add in the 2 second mute on scene change, cludgy rubber buttons and the on/off non-variable switching of FX returns to Auxes,  and I think you have a real loser product. Mine are both delegated to the "community talent show rig". Worst purchase of 2010. YMMV
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on January 07, 2011, 12:06:49 AM
Dave Bjornson wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 04:39

Bennett Prescott wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 20:59

Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 15:37

Can I ask why the StudioLive is not for you?

If I had to pick one reason, it would be the same complaint I have with all the low-market digital, not enough physical controls or space. That is certainly much less of an issue with a band that you know and have set up, but I almost never have the luxury of running the same act on the same desk more than once in a row.

I also hate to see it going into applications where a more capable desk is needed, but because this is now available for what it costs to hire an engineer to run it for a few days, the StudioLive is substituted. Of course, trying to fight against market forces is a losing battle.

O please let me tell you why they're not for me!!!
I own two which I purchased without evaluating for a last minute show, and I've never recorded ONE SHOW successfully. Dropouts galore, on different tracks at different times, tested with multiple drives and laptops tweeked for multimedia use.  Cross your fingers when you plug in the firewire cable as it freezes both my desks over 50% of the time. God forbid you try and actually link the consoles together, as the odds go down from there. After 10 shows, the faders on the older console already feel quirky compared to the new one. Add in the 2 second mute on scene change, cludgy rubber buttons and the on/off non-variable switching of FX returns to Auxes,  and I think you have a real loser product. Mine are both delegated to the "community talent show rig". Worst purchase of 2010. YMMV


Wow.

Quick question.

Does this mean that when the artist asks "can I have reverb in the monitors" the answer is either "yes" or "no"?
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Dick Rees on January 07, 2011, 10:03:36 AM
Dave Bjornson wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 21:39


O please let me tell you why they're not for me!!!
I own two which I purchased without evaluating for a last minute show, and I've never recorded ONE SHOW successfully. Dropouts galore, on different tracks at different times, tested with multiple drives and laptops tweeked for multimedia use.  Cross your fingers when you plug in the firewire cable as it freezes both my desks over 50% of the time. God forbid you try and actually link the consoles together, as the odds go down from there. After 10 shows, the faders on the older console already feel quirky compared to the new one. Add in the 2 second mute on scene change, cludgy rubber buttons and the on/off non-variable switching of FX returns to Auxes,  and I think you have a real loser product. Mine are both delegated to the "community talent show rig". Worst purchase of 2010. YMMV


IME the problems with the recording feature not working and the board locking up as a result are just as likely to be from the computer as the unit itself.  Or to put it another way, the two units (comp and desk) won't talk to each other.  Mac users seem to have fewer if any problems here, but PC users (I'm one) have a fight on their hands.  

The way it has been explained to me is that the many selectable parameters in a PC are difficult to write program for when creating the recording interface while the Mac platform has fewer variables with which to cope, ergo fewer failures.  I'm naive enough to give this some credence.  There was a thread on setup difficulty started by Mary America.  He has since gotten it up and running and the last I heard had it working with a PC......which he purpose built strictly for recording.  It does that and nothing else.  Of course, building computers is his profession so his skills are tailor-made for the task.  Not something that your average soundie could do without a tutor.  Tom Reid and a few other Labsters could probably help me out with an explanation with more experience behind it.

Ta.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Steve Payne on January 07, 2011, 11:32:04 AM
Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 15:17

Howdy fellas,

Ace here....don't want to start any trouble.....just thought I'd make a few points.

First of all, what's wrong with the Prius?



Hiya Ace,
  I won't touch the rest of this discussion, other than to say: Glad the Presonus deal is working out for you.

But, really, what's wrong with a Prius!!

   My wife owned one for about a year and a half, so I got a lot more up close exposure than I needed.  Granted, I am a "car guy", but please, a Prius for gawd's sake!!!  The Prius provides the most divorced, alienated, totally unsatisfying driving experience I have ever endured. Granted, it creates the illusion of being good to the environment and being cheap to operate.  A nearsighted, short term smoke and mirrors trick at best. How long will the batteries last?  How will they be disposed of?  How much will it cost to replace them?  How much will it cost to repair any other part of this extremely complicated system?

   But much important than any of that stuff -what a total POS driving experience.  No key.  No satisfying engine rumble (or at least purrrr!)  No gear shift.  A back up camera so you won't have to look in your rear view mirrors or over your shoulder to see what's behind you.  A freaking back up beep, beep, beep INSIDE the car to remind you that you are going backwards (but not outside to warn the unaware pedestrian that you are about to back over them)....and there is NO option to disengage this stupid, useless feature.
BEEP,BEEP,BEEP,BEEP....oh, I must be in reverse, thank's for that.  Also love the cartoon animation that occupies half the dash, letting you know if you are running of the battery powered motor or the anemic 4 cylinder booster engine.  Mission critical information at it's best!

   Steering, brakes, accelerator are all completely divorced of any feel for what they are doing.
 
   In a year and a half, the sole redeeming feature of this miserable mode of transportation (it does not DESERVE to be called a car) was dribbling gas into the tank at the the gas station.  A benefit paid for dearly by every other negative attribute.

   That's what's wrong with a Prius.

Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

Cheers.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on January 07, 2011, 11:36:43 AM
Steve Payne wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 17:32

Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 15:17

Howdy fellas,

Ace here....don't want to start any trouble.....just thought I'd make a few points.

First of all, what's wrong with the Prius?



Hiya Ace,
  I won't touch the rest of this discussion, other than to say: Glad the Presonus deal is working out for you.

But, really, what's wrong with a Prius!!

   My wife owned one for about a year and a half, so I got a lot more up close exposure than I needed.  Granted, I am a "car guy", but please, a Prius for gawd's sake!!!  The Prius provides the most divorced, alienated, totally unsatisfying driving experience I have ever endured. Granted, it creates the illusion of being good to the environment and being cheap to operate.  A nearsighted, short term smoke and mirrors trick at best. How long will the batteries last?  How will they be disposed of?  How much will it cost to replace them?  How much will it cost to repair any other part of this extremely complicated system?

   But much important than any of that stuff -what a total POS driving experience.  No key.  No satisfying engine rumble (or at least purrrr!)  No gear shift.  A back up camera so you won't have to look in your rear view mirrors or over your shoulder to see what's behind you.  A freaking back up beep, beep, beep INSIDE the car to remind you that you are going backwards (but not outside to warn the unaware pedestrian that you are about to back over them)....and there is NO option to disengage this stupid, useless feature.
BEEP,BEEP,BEEP,BEEP....oh, I must be in reverse, thank's for that.  Also love the cartoon animation that occupies half the dash, letting you know if you are running of the battery powered motor or the anemic 4 cylinder booster engine.  Mission critical information at it's best!

   Steering, brakes, accelerator are all completely divorced of any feel for what they are doing.
 
   In a year and a half, the sole redeeming feature of this miserable mode of transportation (it does not DESERVE to be called a car) was dribbling gas into the tank at the the gas station.  A benefit paid for dearly by every other negative attribute.

   That's what's wrong with a Prius.

Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

Cheers.


What did a 02R cost when it came out?  And how was the feature set compared to a digital mixer of today?

New tech has to start somewhere.  Hybrids/electrics will get there IMO.  And some design features in whatever car you and I buy 10 years from may be based on the failures of the Prius.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Steve Payne on January 07, 2011, 11:41:41 AM
Life's short, enjoy the ride.

Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Andy Peters on January 07, 2011, 01:13:13 PM
Dick Rees wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 08:03

IME the problems with the recording feature not working and the board locking up as a result are just as likely to be from the computer as the unit itself.  Or to put it another way, the two units (comp and desk) won't talk to each other.  Mac users seem to have fewer if any problems here, but PC users (I'm one) have a fight on their hands.  

The way it has been explained to me is that the many selectable parameters in a PC are difficult to write program for when creating the recording interface while the Mac platform has fewer variables with which to cope, ergo fewer failures.  I'm naive enough to give this some credence.  There was a thread on setup difficulty started by Mary America.  He has since gotten it up and running and the last I heard had it working with a PC......which he purpose built strictly for recording.  It does that and nothing else.  Of course, building computers is his profession so his skills are tailor-made for the task.  Not something that your average soundie could do without a tutor.  Tom Reid and a few other Labsters could probably help me out with an explanation with more experience behind it.


Shorter Dick Rees:

FireWire on Windows has always been a disaster.

-a
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Dave Bjornson on January 07, 2011, 01:23:05 PM
Kristian Johnsen wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 05:06

Dave Bjornson wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 04:39

Bennett Prescott wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 20:59

Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 15:37

Can I ask why the StudioLive is not for you?

If I had to pick one reason, it would be the same complaint I have with all the low-market digital, not enough physical controls or space. That is certainly much less of an issue with a band that you know and have set up, but I almost never have the luxury of running the same act on the same desk more than once in a row.

I also hate to see it going into applications where a more capable desk is needed, but because this is now available for what it costs to hire an engineer to run it for a few days, the StudioLive is substituted. Of course, trying to fight against market forces is a losing battle.

O please let me tell you why they're not for me!!!
I own two which I purchased without evaluating for a last minute show, and I've never recorded ONE SHOW successfully. Dropouts galore, on different tracks at different times, tested with multiple drives and laptops tweeked for multimedia use.  Cross your fingers when you plug in the firewire cable as it freezes both my desks over 50% of the time. God forbid you try and actually link the consoles together, as the odds go down from there. After 10 shows, the faders on the older console already feel quirky compared to the new one. Add in the 2 second mute on scene change, cludgy rubber buttons and the on/off non-variable switching of FX returns to Auxes,  and I think you have a real loser product. Mine are both delegated to the "community talent show rig". Worst purchase of 2010. YMMV


Wow.

Quick question.

Does this mean that when the artist asks "can I have reverb in the monitors" the answer is either "yes" or "no"?

Correct.  I've come up with a couple of workarounds which burn subs to gain a little control.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Dave Bjornson on January 07, 2011, 01:38:05 PM
Dick Rees wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 15:03

Dave Bjornson wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 21:39


O please let me tell you why they're not for me!!!
I own two which I purchased without evaluating for a last minute show, and I've never recorded ONE SHOW successfully. Dropouts galore, on different tracks at different times, tested with multiple drives and laptops tweeked for multimedia use.  Cross your fingers when you plug in the firewire cable as it freezes both my desks over 50% of the time. God forbid you try and actually link the consoles together, as the odds go down from there. After 10 shows, the faders on the older console already feel quirky compared to the new one. Add in the 2 second mute on scene change, cludgy rubber buttons and the on/off non-variable switching of FX returns to Auxes,  and I think you have a real loser product. Mine are both delegated to the "community talent show rig". Worst purchase of 2010. YMMV


IME the problems with the recording feature not working and the board locking up as a result are just as likely to be from the computer as the unit itself.  Or to put it another way, the two units (comp and desk) won't talk to each other.  Mac users seem to have fewer if any problems here, but PC users (I'm one) have a fight on their hands.  

The way it has been explained to me is that the many selectable parameters in a PC are difficult to write program for when creating the recording interface while the Mac platform has fewer variables with which to cope, ergo fewer failures.  I'm naive enough to give this some credence.  There was a thread on setup difficulty started by Mary America.  He has since gotten it up and running and the last I heard had it working with a PC......which he purpose built strictly for recording.  It does that and nothing else.  Of course, building computers is his profession so his skills are tailor-made for the task.  Not something that your average soundie could do without a tutor.  Tom Reid and a few other Labsters could probably help me out with an explanation with more experience behind it.

Ta.

Thanks for the tip Rick, but my three Mac laptops work fine with:
Protools, Logic, DP/MOTU, Qlab, and a host of other FW driven, more taxing apps.
I've tried different operating systems, different drives, changed the order of the devices etc. In my opinion It's just NOT A RELIABLE PRODUCT. The problems are not repeatable.  What's worse is the opinion on their forum that these problems are "to be expected" with a new product. Bullshit!!! It's unfair for me to have to beta test their product for them. If you can't power up a piece of gear 10 times in a row successfully, I can't use it in a professional setting.
End of rant.
Title: design swerve
Post by: Art Welter on January 07, 2011, 02:06:38 PM
Kristian Johnsen wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 09:36

Steve Payne wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 17:32

Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 15:17

Howdy fellas,

Ace here....don't want to start any trouble.....just thought I'd make a few points.

First of all, what's wrong with the Prius?



Hiya Ace,
  I won't touch the rest of this discussion, other than to say: Glad the Presonus deal is working out for you.

But, really, what's wrong with a Prius!! ...


   Steering, brakes, accelerator are all completely divorced of any feel for what they are doing.
 
   In a year and a half, the sole redeeming feature of this miserable mode of transportation (it does not DESERVE to be called a car) was dribbling gas into the tank at the the gas station.  A benefit paid for dearly by every other negative attribute.

   That's what's wrong with a Prius.

Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

Cheers.


What did a 02R cost when it came out?  And how was the feature set compared to a digital mixer of today?

New tech has to start somewhere.  Hybrids/electrics will get there IMO.  And some design features in whatever car you and I buy 10 years from may be based on the failures of the Prius.

Just saying.

Steam power preceded electric power by about sixty years, and electrics preceded gas powered autos by about twenty years.Electric vehicles have been around since the 1830s, I'm not holding my breath regarding the "new tech".

By the way, one guy working out of his garage in Minneapolis in around 1992 built a hybrid using off the shelf parts from his day job at Tenant (they make electric and fuel powered cleaning equipment), and a kit VW Kharman Ghia that did better than 60 mpg, and would beat the pants off a Prius. Total costs IIRC were less than $20,000.

Meanwhile, the big three USA auto manufactures were asking for billions in government funding for "research" to achieve that same goal...
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Bennett Prescott on January 07, 2011, 05:08:34 PM
Steve,

Tell us what you really think!
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Steve Payne on January 07, 2011, 05:10:56 PM
aw, you know Bennet, it's the winter and I've just got waaaay to much time on my hands.  Twisted Evil
Title: Re: design swerve
Post by: Kristian Johnsen on January 07, 2011, 05:13:00 PM
Art Welter wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:06

Kristian Johnsen wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 09:36

Steve Payne wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 17:32

Michael Ace Baker wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 15:17

Howdy fellas,

Ace here....don't want to start any trouble.....just thought I'd make a few points.

First of all, what's wrong with the Prius?



Hiya Ace,
  I won't touch the rest of this discussion, other than to say: Glad the Presonus deal is working out for you.

But, really, what's wrong with a Prius!! ...


   Steering, brakes, accelerator are all completely divorced of any feel for what they are doing.
 
   In a year and a half, the sole redeeming feature of this miserable mode of transportation (it does not DESERVE to be called a car) was dribbling gas into the tank at the the gas station.  A benefit paid for dearly by every other negative attribute.

   That's what's wrong with a Prius.

Laughing  Laughing  Laughing

Cheers.


What did a 02R cost when it came out?  And how was the feature set compared to a digital mixer of today?

New tech has to start somewhere.  Hybrids/electrics will get there IMO.  And some design features in whatever car you and I buy 10 years from may be based on the failures of the Prius.

Just saying.

Steam power preceded electric power by about sixty years, and electrics preceded gas powered autos by about twenty years.Electric vehicles have been around since the 1830s, I'm not holding my breath regarding the "new tech".

By the way, one guy working out of his garage in Minneapolis in around 1992 built a hybrid using off the shelf parts from his day job at Tenant (they make electric and fuel powered cleaning equipment), and a kit VW Kharman Ghia that did better than 60 mpg, and would beat the pants off a Prius. Total costs IIRC were less than $20,000.

Meanwhile, the big three USA auto manufactures were asking for billions in government funding for "research" to achieve that same goal...



So what's your point?

Many people are surprised to hear how long electric vehicles have been around.

And cars generally gave the same mileage in 1970 as today.  The difference is that now we want bigger, safer and more comfortable which burns up (literally) the gains of the new combustion engine technology.

Compare a mobile phone of the '80 to the ones of today.  The transmitter wattage is still 2 watts (here at least), but compare the battery size and standby time.  Battery tech is improving.


Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Moby (Mike Diack) on January 07, 2011, 08:08:21 PM
Steve Payne wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 05:32

....really, what's wrong with a Prius!!
Cheers.


Hey, it's the only car you can use as a whole house UPS
http://priups.com/
Brought to you by the bloke who invented some of pro-audio's best loved toys.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Chris Davis on January 08, 2011, 01:17:21 PM
Moby (Mike Diack) wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 20:08

Steve Payne wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 05:32

....really, what's wrong with a Prius!!
Cheers.


Hey, it's the only car you can use as a whole house UPS
http://priups.com/
Brought to you by the bloke who invented some of pro-audio's best loved toys.



What about when the wife has the car?  Or is this just something for single guys?  Laughing I think I'll stay with our "expensive whole house generator".  It has been about ten years and no power outages beyond ten seconds. Cool

Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Michael Ace Baker on January 10, 2011, 03:00:06 PM
Hi Dave,

Sorry to hear that you're having problems.....sounds frustrating.

I've never tried to link up 2 boards together, so I'll defer to your opinion on that, but as I've already mentioned, I've had many hours of recording (26 channels at a time, 1 hour of Soundcheck and 2 hours of show), and never had a drop out. I used 2 different consoles (1 in L.A. and 1 in Europe), and the PCAudioLabs Rok Box to record. I would record straight to the computer's hard drive and then dump to an independent hard drive after the show.

I didn't have any problems with faders growing quirky and I actually like the rubber buttons.....but I guess that's a "taste" thing.

If you've just had enough with trying to get the StudioLive to work and you are fine with just using the SL as the "community talent show rig", then I guess that's that.....but perhaps you may want to consider getting the folks at PreSonus on the phone and figuring out what your recording issue is, because I had nothing but success with it.



Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Dick Rees on January 10, 2011, 03:23:20 PM
Michael Ace Baker wrote on Mon, 10 January 2011 14:00

 I used 2 different consoles (1 in L.A. and 1 in Europe), and the PCAudioLabs Rok Box to record. I would record straight to the computer's hard drive and then dump to an independent hard drive after the show.




Which model Rok Box?

Capture or Studio One?

More info, please.
Title: Re: Presonus StudioLive over Midas?
Post by: Tim Weaver on January 10, 2011, 11:59:02 PM
I've used exactly 2 SL16's and both had issues. One has a bad subgroup fader and all the faders don't track exactly right with the "locate" lights.  The other one failed to boot up properly and has locked up occasionally during use. I guess you could say I've experienced a %100 failure rate with the studiolive consoles. Thats enough for me....