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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Brian_Henry on March 27, 2017, 05:22:13 PM
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Hi All:
I am in a 3-piece hard rock band that routinely plays small and medium size bars/rooms and occasionally an outdoor party (up to 200 people). We carry our own PA which is currently a pair of K12s on stands fed from an A&H Mixwizard.
Instruments are vocals, guitar, bass and drums. Currently, indoors, the PA is only carrying vocals, kick and toms, although guitar/bass are also miced for monitoring (drums/vox and bass/vox use IEMs, guitar uses a wedge). For outdoors, coming up this summer, I would like the PA to be able to reinforce guitars/bass as well. FYI, the guitarist's wedge is oversized and low-quality and will eventually be replaced, but this is secondary to the PA. Guitarist and bass do not use enormous amplifiers.
I am trying to plan an upgrade strategy. We are willing to spend for good equipment and I have been looking at QSC and JBL SRX800 offerings. I am looking for some advice on:
1) what is our weakest point / what to do next. Gut feeling is subs and I dont know if I should stick with QSC and use KW181s or if I should move to the SRX line.
2) if tops should eventually be upgraded to SRX or KW152/153 (pushing the K12 to monitors or side fill duty when needed) or if we should just double up on K12s for larger/outdoor gigs.
3) Could it be we don't need anything?
Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks!
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Hi All:
I am in a 3-piece hard rock band that routinely plays small and medium size bars/rooms and occasionally an outdoor party (up to 200 people). We carry our own PA which is currently a pair of K12s on stands fed from an A&H Mixwizard.
Instruments are vocals, guitar, bass and drums. Currently, indoors, the PA is only carrying vocals, kick and toms, although guitar/bass are also miced for monitoring (drums/vox and bass/vox use IEMs, guitar uses a wedge). For outdoors, coming up this summer, I would like the PA to be able to reinforce guitars/bass as well. FYI, the guitarist's wedge is oversized and low-quality and will eventually be replaced, but this is secondary to the PA. Guitarist and bass do not use enormous amplifiers.
I am trying to plan an upgrade strategy. We are willing to spend for good equipment and I have been looking at QSC and JBL SRX800 offerings. I am looking for some advice on:
1) what is our weakest point / what to do next. Gut feeling is subs and I dont know if I should stick with QSC and use KW181s or if I should move to the SRX line.
2) if tops should eventually be upgraded to SRX or KW152/153 (pushing the K12 to monitors or side fill duty when needed) or if we should just double up on K12s for larger/outdoor gigs.
3) Could it be we don't need anything?
Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks!
I work with a band who made a similar move. They originally had two QSC KW181 subs under two QSC K12 tops. I mixed them for an outdoor show once and the 12" tops just weren't up to the job. The KW181 are great subs IMO, and would be fine for what you are discussing. At a minimum, if you stick with QSC, you would want to go with the 15" KW152 tops. The band I work with went with the QSC KW153 3-way tops over the subs and that can handle most all the indoor/outdoor shows they play. The 3-ways may be a tad overkill for your needs. The JBL PRX or SRX800 are also fine speakers.
Adding subs and bigger tops will greatly improve your sound and give you the ability to play most any of the types of shows you describe. You'll be able to hear and feel the kick drum and bass guitar, and get the vocals out there in any setting.
If you have the funds, it would be a really nice upgrade that should meet your long-term needs nicely!
-Rob
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Hi All:
I am in a 3-piece hard rock band that routinely plays small and medium size bars/rooms and occasionally an outdoor party (up to 200 people). We carry our own PA which is currently a pair of K12s on stands fed from an A&H Mixwizard.
Instruments are vocals, guitar, bass and drums. Currently, indoors, the PA is only carrying vocals, kick and toms, although guitar/bass are also miced for monitoring (drums/vox and bass/vox use IEMs, guitar uses a wedge). For outdoors, coming up this summer, I would like the PA to be able to reinforce guitars/bass as well. FYI, the guitarist's wedge is oversized and low-quality and will eventually be replaced, but this is secondary to the PA. Guitarist and bass do not use enormous amplifiers.
I am trying to plan an upgrade strategy. We are willing to spend for good equipment and I have been looking at QSC and JBL SRX800 offerings. I am looking for some advice on:
1) what is our weakest point / what to do next. Gut feeling is subs and I dont know if I should stick with QSC and use KW181s or if I should move to the SRX line.
2) if tops should eventually be upgraded to SRX or KW152/153 (pushing the K12 to monitors or side fill duty when needed) or if we should just double up on K12s for larger/outdoor gigs.
3) Could it be we don't need anything?
Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks!
Welcome!
Hard Rock = Loud + drums'n'bass IMO
Loud + drums'n'bass = subs + clean mains at loud SPL
I think Debbie should voice her thoughts as she has more experience than I. But off the cuff, I'm going to say Move towards getting SRX8xx series.
Get subs first, then get mains.
Reason is subs will allow your entire system to sound more full at the start (yes you can mix & match brands just fine) then when you get mains the SRX series mains will easily sound better than the K12's at loud volumes.
Depending on what you do most, the 828 will run cheaper than 2x 818 but wont be as portable. Choose between those two. You might not even need the 828/2x818's for the crowd size. You might just want the 1x 818; but I don't think so given hard rock = loud ;)
Then I'd get the 2x 812 for mains.
Boom you've gotten a great easy to setup system for fairly cheap.
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I once did a show to a raceway grandstand with a 3 piece band, using only a pair of cheap Behringer 15" powered tops and Mackie powered subs. It "worked" but it must have been like listening to a boom box at 100 feet.
The K12 is an OK speaker but there are better ones to be had for what you are trying to achieve. One thing you could consider is putting the K12s on monitor duty and replacing your whole front PA. I agree that subs will greatly improve the punch of drums and bass instruments, especially outdoors, and better tops will improve the range and intelligibility of your vocals. The QSC KW series and JBL SRX800p series are good candidates for an upgrade, should you choose to pursue it. The Yamaha DSR 112 also gets a lot of high marks around here, which would pair well with the Yamaha DSX18 if you're trying to keep consistent in the brand in your mains.
I also agree with the advice above that 2- 18s a side of subs of this quality will give you noticeably more oomph than a single 18 per side, especially outside.
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Hi All:
I am in a 3-piece hard rock band that routinely plays small and medium size bars/rooms and occasionally an outdoor party (up to 200 people). We carry our own PA which is currently a pair of K12s on stands fed from an A&H Mixwizard.
Instruments are vocals, guitar, bass and drums. Currently, indoors, the PA is only carrying vocals, kick and toms, although guitar/bass are also miced for monitoring (drums/vox and bass/vox use IEMs, guitar uses a wedge). For outdoors, coming up this summer, I would like the PA to be able to reinforce guitars/bass as well. FYI, the guitarist's wedge is oversized and low-quality and will eventually be replaced, but this is secondary to the PA. Guitarist and bass do not use enormous amplifiers.
I am trying to plan an upgrade strategy. We are willing to spend for good equipment and I have been looking at QSC and JBL SRX800 offerings. I am looking for some advice on:
1) what is our weakest point / what to do next. Gut feeling is subs and I dont know if I should stick with QSC and use KW181s or if I should move to the SRX line.
2) if tops should eventually be upgraded to SRX or KW152/153 (pushing the K12 to monitors or side fill duty when needed) or if we should just double up on K12s for larger/outdoor gigs.
3) Could it be we don't need anything?
Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks!
You will need good subs for outdoor events. Figure about 3x the amount of power for outdoor use, as you would use for indoors. Drums are loud, but they will get lost in the stage volume in outdoor shows. As mentioned previously, consider the JBL SRX line for your subs. For tops, don't waste your money doubling up on the K12's. Those are great speakers, but not really designed to be used in a "cluster" or "group", unless you need coverage more than greater output. Look at the Yamaha DSR line. We use the DSR15 for smaller outdoor events; they are great and sound "full".
You may want to consider used speakers if your budget is limited.
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Thanks for the replies so far. I am not determined to stick with a single brand, but I do want to move toward the best gear for our needs in a stepwise fashion. If that means pairing SRX subs with the K12 for a while, that is not a problem for me. Sounds like investing in subs is the first step.
I'm a little confused about the above in that one mentioned 2 x single 18" and another 2x double 18". Is 2 x single 18" adequate indoors but inadequate outdoors?
I love the idea of the 828 from a cost/performance standpoint, but they are massive! Would a single 828 even work in a bar setting and, if so, center or off-center placement?
Moving the K12 to monitors in the long run was my thought as well. But would KW15x or SRX8xx be overkill indoors?
I will take a look at the Yamaha offerings too. I am less familiar with their line.
Re: used, I will likely consider that. QSC has a great warranty but does it transfer with a used sale? How is JBL with warranty service?
Also, I know no one has mentioned it yet, but thought I should mention I would like to stick with powered boxes.
Thanks!
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But would KW15x or SRX8xx be overkill indoors?
Not at all. I get a lot of mileage out of 4 KW181s and 2 KW153s. I leave the 181s stacked and strapped, roll in/out, small rooms I power just one per side. The 153s sit on top. Small footprint, roll in/roll out; custom undercover NY soft cases for the stacked subs.
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I run 2 kw181, 2 yorkville ls700p (when more sub is needed), 2 kw153, 6 k12 for monitors. I have used a few of the srx8xx line, and the yammy dxr.
Here is my take:
--The kw181 sub is the best in it's class IMO. srx828p is too big, but sounds good. I need quick load in and load out, and I need to be able to unload by myself when I get home. 828 was out for me.
--dxr/dsr go a little louder tan the qsc k12, but I only use those for monitors, so that didnt matter to me.
--The srx tops sound a little better maxed out than the kw's, a bit "warmer" if you will. Being that I went with the 153's, I wanted to match the subs as I rarely run them wide open anyway, and the difference is slight.
--If looking to use multiple tops, out of qsc, jbl and qsc, the kw152 would be your best bet as they have a 60 degree horizontal dispersion so you can couple them. The other choices are 75 degree or more, so when you put them next to each other you run into comb filtering, sometimes severe comb filtering. There are other options such as rcf etc, but those arent readily available in my area so I have never heard or tried them, but they recieve solid marks from others I trust.
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2 single 18 subs should be adequate for most average size bars. I frequently use two for rock bands. Depending on the configuration of the room, I sometimes cluster them together and sometimes not. But think of coverage more in terms of room size than number of people. It takes more subs to fill a larger room with sound. I wouldn't attempt to do a large room or a large outdoor area with less than 4 single 18's (or 2 double 18's). If your outdoor gigs are few and far between, you could always rent a few extra subs just for those shows.
As far as top boxes, four won't get much louder than 2. Unlike subs, clustering tops usually causes more problems than it solves. You can only gain a coverage (dispersion) advantage when pointing them all in different directions. In order to get the mains louder, you quite simply need boxes that can go much louder. Unfortunately, that usually requires a higher-end product.
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IMO, you need to approach this in stages .... unless you have a big budget right now.
First, there is nothing terribly wrong with a pair of K12's.
Stage one:
SUBS!!! First and foremost, get a pair of KW181's. They have great output, and will let you get WAY more output from your K12's. Keep this in mind. Getting subs is going to WAY more than double your volume output you are capable of today from just your tops. Cutting out the lows from the K12's will let them do what they do well and handle the mids and highs. This is the single biggest thing you should do. All other moves from here are going to feel small in comparison.
Stage 2: Get better tops.
Note, this isn't going to feel "night and day" like stage one did, but it will be a "noticeable" improvement. Just getting better tops isn't necessarily going to give you more output though. IMO, a single K12 may hang well with a single KW181. Replacing the K12 with either a DSR112 or an SRX812p will sound "better", and might give you a boost in your low mids (punch), and it might give you a little better vocal clarity. As I stated in the beginning of this paragraph, this isn't going to be a night and day upgrade, but rather an incremental update ..... and here is why.
Having only a pair of subs, either a DSR112 or an SRX812p will out-run a single KW181. In order to get significantly more volume, you will need to go to stage 3..... MORE SUBS.
Stage 3: Even MORE subs.
At this point, you will be using your K12's for monitor duty and your mains will be able to handle another pair of subs before they run out of gas. Get another pair of KW181's. Here is why...
Having 4 KW181's is a very flexible system. Honestly, for MOST bars, a pair of DSR112's over a pair of KW181's is going to be more (much more in some cases) than you need to fill the room. I have a similar rig and I have only had one inside room (about 110 ft x 130 ft) where I was tickling the limiters with my rig..... and the dance floor was really pumping.
When you play a larger club, or outdoors, you could likely cover 200 people outside with that system in most cases. If you are playing an outside venue where you would need more than this system, it is VERY likely that the venue would be providing the sound system that would be professionally installed by a local sound company for such a gig.
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Agree with the DSR112 or SRX812 over 2 to 4 single 18s. I use DSRs over 4 single 18s and it gives me flexibility to bring 2 for a bar or 4 for outdoors or a large room. While double 18s like SRX828 are more cost effective you may not always need them. Caveat that many folks find that tipping them into a van actually easier than picking up a single 18 and loading it. Also, having one double 18 on one side and your 12 on a stick on the other side without a sub usually won't be a problem in a bar and will sometimes reduce cancellation and sound louder.
A rock band in a bar makes a lot of midrange noise. Having good tops like the DSRs or SRXs will still help with vocal intelligibility.
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Re: used, I will likely consider that. QSC has a great warranty but does it transfer with a used sale? How is JBL with warranty service?
Yes - the QSC warranty is transferable. You would need to have a copy of the original sales receipt from the person whom you purchased the used QSC equipment from, as well, the person selling the equipment would need to provide a sales receipt. Send all this to QSC and the warranty gets transferred to you.
I'm not sure about JBL.
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Looks like its clear that subs are the next step! I was going to pull the trigger on some used KW181s locally, but now I wonder if I would be happier with 818s in the long run? I could see myself in the future with 2x 818 and 1x 828 which would be the ultimate in flexibility and more cost effective than 4x818 or 4xKW181.
If I were to end up with SRX tops down the line, will I wish I had SRX subs too or am I likely to still be happy with KW181s in that case? How much of this is taste vs actual product performance?
Is there any reason I'd be happier with 818 over 181 in the long run or is a taste issue too? At this point, my budget will allow for immediate purchase of 1 or 2 sub boxes. I really don't want to commit to a specific future top at this point.
Stephen mentions the midrange issue and that will be important to me. Especially since I have to mix from the stage and have little opportunity to audition the mix. The more clarity I can get out of the box the better.
Sorry to hem and haw, just want to make the right decisions!
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At this point, my budget will allow for immediate purchase of 1 or 2 sub boxes.
Sorry to hem and haw, just want to make the right decisions!
What is your budget, exactly. And what is your transport situation?
For rock I'd go with the biggest loudest subs I could afford and could transport.
You mentioned in an earlier post about the SRX828p's being huge, but they're pretty standard for a dual 18. Do you have the capability to haul a couple of dual 18's or larger horn boxes? A dual 18 would typically take up similar room in a vehicle as two single's, but you may be like me in that i could only fit two single 18's in my SUV in a specific orientation and still have room for the rest of the PA. A dual 18 would've taken over the whole vehicle.
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Looks like its clear that subs are the next step! I was going to pull the trigger on some used KW181s locally, but now I wonder if I would be happier with 818s in the long run? I could see myself in the future with 2x 818 and 1x 828 which would be the ultimate in flexibility and more cost effective than 4x818 or 4xKW181.
If I were to end up with SRX tops down the line, will I wish I had SRX subs too or am I likely to still be happy with KW181s in that case? How much of this is taste vs actual product performance?
Is there any reason I'd be happier with 818 over 181 in the long run or is a taste issue too? At this point, my budget will allow for immediate purchase of 1 or 2 sub boxes. I really don't want to commit to a specific future top at this point.
Stephen mentions the midrange issue and that will be important to me. Especially since I have to mix from the stage and have little opportunity to audition the mix. The more clarity I can get out of the box the better.
Sorry to hem and haw, just want to make the right decisions!
The KW181 and SPX818sp spec out very similar in size, weight and output, and I'd expect preferences to be all over the map if you were to do a search here. Both will do a serviceable job within their capabilities. The larger 3 way tops like the KW153 and the SRX835p will generally perform well in intelligibility and general "hi-fi ness" but you may not notice enough of a difference as compared to a 12" or 15" two way box.
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Patrick, we travel with a full size pickup with a cap, and due to the fact I like to use road cases for a lot of gear, there probably isn't room for a 828 at the moment and 2 1x18 might fit better. I am seriously considering getting a 5x8ish trailer though so I am trying not to let size dictate this too much. The worst part of the truck is lifting to the gate height so a trailer would be a dream come true for that reason alone. Budget is flexible and I am willing to wait to afford the right gear. I can find used KW181's for $1k ish locally if that's any indication of my budget.
It looks like the 181s can be had cheaper than the 818s and if the difference is minimal in a real life setting, that may make the decision for me between those two. But, the 828 is tempting as it offers serious bang for the buck compared to both those 1x18s. You are correct that dimensionally a pair of 1x18s is not much different than a 2x18.
Rick, I think I would certainly notice the difference, but I am a recording engineer, lol! However, since I'm on stage and not at FOH, subtleties won't be as much of a big deal to me. However, I have found that even local drunks can tell when something sounds better (and won't hesitate to tell you so). The difference is they just don't know what it is or why!
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Patrick, we travel with a full size pickup with a cap, and due to the fact I like to use road cases for a lot of gear, there probably isn't room for a 828 at the moment and 2 1x18 might fit better. I am seriously considering getting a 5x8ish trailer though so I am trying not to let size dictate this too much. The worst part of the truck is lifting to the gate height so a trailer would be a dream come true for that reason alone. Budget is flexible and I am willing to wait to afford the right gear. I can find used KW181's for $1k ish locally if that's any indication of my budget.
It looks like the 181s can be had cheaper than the 818s and if the difference is minimal in a real life setting, that may make the decision for me between those two. But, the 828 is tempting as it offers serious bang for the buck compared to both those 1x18s. You are correct that dimensionally a pair of 1x18s is not much different than a 2x18.
Rick, I think I would certainly notice the difference, but I am a recording engineer, lol! However, since I'm on stage and not at FOH, subtleties won't be as much of a big deal to me. However, I have found that even local drunks can tell when something sounds better (and won't hesitate to tell you so). The difference is they just don't know what it is or why!
The QSC subs have a smaller profile, but pound really hard. If money is limited, go with 2 subs first. I do think you will not be happy in the long term if you stay with 12" tops. They're fine in smaller rooms, especially with subs, but not so much for bigger rooms or outdoor shows.
If you have the ability and they are available, you might want to try renting some subs and bigger tops to get an idea of the difference from your current rig.
-Rob
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IMO JBL wins, difference lies in the HF. SRX800P is 3 inches while QSC KW is 1.75 inches just like the K series. The SRX800P is what you consider top of the line prosumer and a step below entry level touring. The QSC KW is basically the K series in wood enclosures and a slightly more powerful amp. Not sure if it matters to you but the JBL integrated V5 tunings which is in line with their touring line. Since the SRX835 is 60 by 40, it is able to be splayed should you need more coverage.
The matching subs is no contest either, SRX818SP got louder than the QSC KW181 while getting deeper/lower.
Source: A/B'd at a music store that had them in stock.
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Buy what you need for most of your shows, rent for the outdoors ones. It makes absolutely no sense to own all the gear to do an occasional outdoor show that will be overkill for anything else and will sit in storage.
I'd start off with 1 QSC KW181 - by not having your kick and toms go through your K12's you'll gain a lot more headroom, and this way you can see how much one improves the sound now that you can have bass, kick and low toms through a sub instead of the top speakers. As you expand, add another KW181 if you feel you need more bass. For a lot of bars, this set up could be fine.
Once you've gotten to where you really need to get more out of your tops, then look at the KW153 and move the K12's to monitors.
What I would recommend upgrading before the KW153's would be your mixer. The MixWiz is an excellent analog mixer, but with all of the digital options out there now, you could get a lot more functionality (4+ bands of parametric eq per channel and on mains and aux sends, dynamics, etc.) in a lot smaller space. Being able to high pass and low pass your drums alone will help clean up the sound in ways you can't with your two sweepable mids. There are lots of options out there; for our band I have the Mackie DL1608 which works great for me, but check them out to find out what's right for you.
Hope this helps!
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Yup, fully expecting that Rob. Will do subs fist, then move on to tops when resources are there. I like the rent to try idea, but honestly, I usually set up in haste and then am on stage, so I wouldn't really get a chance to see what is up with my own ears :(
Not too familiar with the DSP on the JBL. Will look into it.
Thanks for the data point on the subs guys.
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Good point Ned about outdoor equipment. Maybe I just need to charge more for gigs lol.
I used to use a digital mixer before I moved to the MW. I just didn't like the workflow. I am more comfortable with an analog console and some choice pieces of rack gear. To be fair, the digital mixer wasn't great (Yamaha 01v).
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I've been using a pair of KW181's with Yamaha DXR15 tops. Usually use this system for venues around 200-300 people and haven't yet needed to push them to their max.
I find the DXR tops are clearer and sound better when being driven harder. The Yamaha DSR's are a step up again!
My only complaint with the DSR112's is the handle is on the top of the cabinet which makes it more awkward to mount on a pole.
The QSC KW tops are not just the K series in a wooden box. They use different drivers, amps and DSP according to support at QSC.
One other range of speakers worth looking at are RCF. I heard the 735a's over the 8003 subs and this setup sounded massive. From what I've heard, I would expect the RCF 8003 subs to noticeably out perform the QSC KW181's whilst not weighing much heavier or costing more! They are a little bigger though!
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Hi Brian-
The big-dog QSC is a decent sub but some users prefer the JBL. Debbie Dunkley and a couple other Lounge participants have posted at both length and depth about them and topic creep brought into the discussion some other speakers as well. These are worth the read as they covered logistics, sonic (audible) impressions, power consumption and other minutia.
We're a mostly JBL shop and I'm still not sure what I think of the SRX828sp (and probably its 818 lil bro). To me it's like JBL traded some 'punch in the chest' for 'why are my pant legs ruffling in a breeze?' They feel like they go lower but don't quite have the impact I've associated with JBL subs. I need to spend some time to build up input EQ presets, probably.
That said the general advice you've received so far is spot on. Subs will make the most obvious difference; new tops will be less obvious but useful (you can re-purpose your existing tops if you don't sell them); and purchase gear to do your indoor shows and hire in (or have the promoter hire in) the sound for your bigger/outdoor gigs. Outdoors you'll find it takes about 3x the subbage of indoors and unless that outdoors show is pretty small you'll find out just how fast you can run out of top box coverage and/or output, too.
One other consideration in selecting tops & subs - if you want the patch and play simplicity of a "system" you may need to stay in the same brand and model line. Some brands put the sub/top crossover into the sub, others into the top. Some have the crossover output available and others give you a loop-thru of the input signal. Just something to think about.
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Single 18s sound like a better fit, but as you mentioned getting them up onto the gate requires a hefty deadlift. A dual 18" or tall horn loaded sub is actually easier because you can lean-tilt-lift it. But if it don't fit or takes up too much space that don't matter.
I've never mixed on the KW181's, but have heard and played through them and they sounded fine. And since there are so many out there you will likely always have used options if you want to add to the stack down the road. I learned quickly with my current JBL PRX700 system that the tops can outrun the subs pretty easily, if I were playing 'real' rock music I'd definitely want to be doubled up (or more) on the subs. Particularly if the venues were outside. Something to consider is that if you need it you could probably rent more KW181 for particular shows. I know several providers in my area have them, plus guitar center also rents them. Can be pricey but you can pass that cost onto the client.
Patrick, we travel with a full size pickup with a cap, and due to the fact I like to use road cases for a lot of gear, there probably isn't room for a 828 at the moment and 2 1x18 might fit better. I am seriously considering getting a 5x8ish trailer though so I am trying not to let size dictate this too much. The worst part of the truck is lifting to the gate height so a trailer would be a dream come true for that reason alone. Budget is flexible and I am willing to wait to afford the right gear. I can find used KW181's for $1k ish locally if that's any indication of my budget.
It looks like the 181s can be had cheaper than the 818s and if the difference is minimal in a real life setting, that may make the decision for me between those two. But, the 828 is tempting as it offers serious bang for the buck compared to both those 1x18s. You are correct that dimensionally a pair of 1x18s is not much different than a 2x18.
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Uhaul 5 x 8 is my friend here how ever in the DC inside the beltway parking is painfull with a trailer.
I pay the insurance and let uhaul worry on maintenance and license problems.
Rent the big system to try out the sound of a speaker set you want to work towards. How many shows are outdoors and need the bigger system?
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I don't have experience with these speakers, I'm still on level down, but I can second the comment about getting a digital mixer.
I've only recently learned on an LS9 in the last few years but got an XR18 for band and having all those FX, EQ, and dynamics available helped clean up sound massively.
The workflow takes some getting used to, but isn't hard to learn. If you want faders get an X32 (which I may cave and get eventually).
Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk
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Thanks all for the thoughtful replies. Thanks Tim for mentioning the plug and play aspect. As I need quick setup, I probably should choose to be ending up with a matched set. I didn't think about crossover location issue if I mix and match brands.
We don't play too many outdoor shows. We have three booked for the summer (so far). So rental is probably to way to go for outdoor shows that are on the larger side. Two of the three are small, but one is a block party which the organizer has billed as 150-200 people and I'm a little worried about reinforcement. This was booked without thought to cost for additional PA, unfortunately.
Looks like I need to give this some more thought (and try to listen if possible) as what subs I choose may dictate my next set of tops. I truly appreciate all the help!
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Thanks all for the thoughtful replies. Thanks Tim for mentioning the plug and play aspect. As I need quick setup, I probably should choose to be ending up with a matched set. I didn't think about crossover location issue if I mix and match brands.
We don't play too many outdoor shows. We have three booked for the summer (so far). So rental is probably to way to go for outdoor shows that are on the larger side. Two of the three are small, but one is a block party which the organizer has billed as 150-200 people and I'm a little worried about reinforcement. This was booked without thought to cost for additional PA, unfortunately.
Looks like I need to give this some more thought (and try to listen if possible) as what subs I choose may dictate my next set of tops. I truly appreciate all the help!
You've been given some great advice here. There are some really great sounding powered speakers available to us today. I own or have worked with everything discussed. Here's my brief impressions:
I too think it is a good idea to have a matched, single brand system.
KW181 - great sounding sub, and fairly small. The only downside is I'm not as big of a fan of their matching KW tops, which don't have the warmth and clarity of an SRX or Yamaha top.
SRX818 - also great sounding sub, gets plenty loud and deeper than my PRX sub's, but as one poster stated it sometimes lack that "punch" I'm looking for. I'm still learning with this PA and haven't used much EQ if any. My SRX system is (1) 815 over 818 per side, and is plenty adequate for even outdoor shows of 600-800. I do a summer concert in the park series with this system - sounds great. The 815 tops are fantastic but heavy. You'll need HD extension poles with these. I think if I were buying today I would get the 12" tops in lieu of the 15's.
Yamaha DXS18 - There is one in a club were I run the house system, and it reminds me of my SRX818, except not as warm sounding. It's really loud and deep though. The tops are K12's, which make fantastic monitors IMO. I also have a bunch of DSR112's which I use for floor monitors. They get crazy loud and are very clear and linear to my ears, but I prefer the JBL sound for mains. A pair of DSR's over the DXS18 sub's would make for a great sounding system, and it would have a much lower cost than the SRX stuff.
JBL PRX800 - You should be looking at this as well. I was going to sell mine (600 series) after purchasing the SRX last year, but in the end I kept it, and it actually get's used more. It is really light weight, and sounds great for small clubs with crowds up to 200-250. I run a 615 over a 618xlf per side.
Double 18's - I would certainly have dual 18's per side if I had room to transport them. If you do buy a trailer, then I highly recommend dual 18's. With all of the systems noted above, they would all sound better for rock music with dual 18's. There have been occasions that I ran a single stack, with both 18's under one top, and it really sounded fantastic. I need to get a trailer myself! As mentioned, the SRX 828 cab is the most economical route for this.
Mixwiz - Was a great board for it's time, but the small digital boards just plain sound better, and are more capable in a smaller, lighter package. I went from a Mixwiz to the suggested Mackie DL1608 4 years ago, and never looked back. The EQ's on each channel and output are really full-featured, and just a delight to use. I only use the parametric EQ's on the outputs now, which IMO are far better than the graphic EQ's (also available). Compression & gate on every channel, effects, etc - you no longer need a processing rack. There are many other great digital boards available as well, as others have mentioned. The A&H Qu series comes to mind if you want physical faders.
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Thanks Steve, yes everyone's replies have really great!
I will look more in depth at the Yamaha line as well. And maybe I will hold off on making a decision until I decide if we will be getting a trailer in the near future re that 2x18" idea.
My concern about digital mixers has always been that I didn't think they sound as good as the analog desks, but sounds like the times have changed that (I disliked the pres on the 01v). The Qu16 has a feature which allows for onboard recording to USB without a laptop. That would be huge for me as I was looking at one of those JoeCo BBR boxes for recording from direct outs (I'm currently taking 8 tracks to a zoom R16, which I do not care for at all). The Qu costs less than one of those boxes. If the Qu indeed sounds better than my MW, then it might be a no brainer. Is the A/D conversion on the Qu series mixers decent?
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Thanks Steve, yes everyone's replies have really great!
I will look more in depth at the Yamaha line as well. And maybe I will hold off on making a decision until I decide if we will be getting a trailer in the near future re that 2x18" idea.
My concern about digital mixers has always been that I didn't think they sound as good as the analog desks, but sounds like the times have changed that (I disliked the pres on the 01v). The Qu16 has a feature which allows for onboard recording to USB without a laptop. That would be huge for me as I was looking at one of those JoeCo BBR boxes for recording from direct outs (I'm currently taking 8 tracks to a zoom R16, which I do not care for at all). The Qu costs less than one of those boxes. If the Qu indeed sounds better than my MW, then it might be a no brainer. Is the A/D conversion on the Qu series mixers decent?
I don't have any real experience with the Qu series, so hard to say. It might be wise to post a new thread for your mixer needs. I am very certain that my Mackie sounds better than my Mixwiz did. It might be the added tools on every channel, and the EQ being easier to really dial in that makes it sound better, but it just does. I have to think the A&H boards have even better components than my low-cost Mackie.
Be sure to contact Mike Pyle on this forum for speaker pricing.
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Thanks Steve. I will once I decide how I am going to move forward.
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The tops are K12's, which make fantastic monitors IMO. I also have a bunch of DSR112's which I use for floor monitors. They get crazy loud and are very clear and linear to my ears, but I prefer the JBL sound for mains.
They use K12s as mains, and the monitors are DSR112???!!!!
They must like it crazy flipping loud onstage then............... ;D ;D ;D
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Patrick, we travel with a full size pickup with a cap, and due to the fact I like to use road cases for a lot of gear, there probably isn't room for a 828 at the moment and 2 1x18 might fit better. I am seriously considering getting a 5x8ish trailer though so I am trying not to let size dictate this too much. The worst part of the truck is lifting to the gate height so a trailer would be a dream come true for that reason alone. Budget is flexible and I am willing to wait to afford the right gear. I can find used KW181's for $1k ish locally if that's any indication of my budget.
Get yourself a trailer. Go 5x10, a bit bigger than you think you need so there's a bit of room to grow. Get a ramp door at the back and you will wonder why you didn't do it sooner. I lifted (with help) a pair of LS800p's on to the back of my truck for years. Always had to get help "just for 2 minutes" to load the subs on the truck, and to take them off. Now I can do it all on my own.
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Dave would you mind posting a picture of this if you have time ?
We have a bunch of kw stuff and always looking for faster in and out. often doing solo shows.
single 153 over 2 181's is a great ratio imo.
Not at all. I get a lot of mileage out of 4 KW181s and 2 KW153s. I leave the 181s stacked and strapped, roll in/out, small rooms I power just one per side. The 153s sit on top. Small footprint, roll in/roll out; custom undercover NY soft cases for the stacked subs.
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We don't play too many outdoor shows. We have three booked for the summer (so far). So rental is probably to way to go for outdoor shows that are on the larger side. Two of the three are small, but one is a block party which the organizer has billed as 150-200 people and I'm a little worried about reinforcement. This was booked without thought to cost for additional PA, unfortunately.
If it's in an area zoned residential I wouldn't worry about it.
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It is. And since I will not be buying new mains by then, I won't! Goal is to have a sub or two by then. And now I really getting into the idea of a GU16.
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They use K12s as mains, and the monitors are DSR112???!!!!
They must like it crazy flipping loud onstage then............... ;D ;D ;D
No, the club has k12's as mains. The DSR's are mine. The club's monitors are Mackie SRM 550's.
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Ah, I figured it was something like that 😬
Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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No, the club has k12's as mains. The DSR's are mine. The club's monitors are Mackie SRM 550's.
Thought you may have bumped your head there for a minute ;)
That makes sense.
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I did a last minute show yesterday at a club that is bringing back live music. They have a pair of K12's mounted up high, with a single KW181 below, right on the stage lip. The room is small (250), and the band is back in the corner. I was quite surprised at how good it sounded. I had no trouble getting a great mix during the first song. We had (4) K12's for monitors as well. The KW181's really sounded great in this room. The only problem I had was lack of headroom. It was a nice mix, but not that loud, and there was nothing left to give from the K12 tops. The band was a Rolling Stone tribute act.
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Dave would you mind posting a picture of this if you have time ?
We have a bunch of kw stuff and always looking for faster in and out. often doing solo shows.
single 153 over 2 181's is a great ratio imo.
Sorry for the delay... snapped some photos at the job tonight.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-0udqk8alQlOXlZNDctQVppWHc?usp=sharing
or/same/@
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/kw181/FullSizeRender%20(39).jpg
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/kw181/FullSizeRender%20(38).jpg
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/kw181/FullSizeRender%20(37).jpg
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/kw181/FullSizeRender%20(41).jpg
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/kw181/FullSizeRender%20(40).jpg
These angle iron frames are too big... the ding dong at the fabricator forgot to deduct the width of the angle iron from the inside dimension. :) Free works for me. Also is a photo of my pig tail I made to to link both.
Will try and find a good photo of the 153s stacked on them from the job.
I pref the sound of the 181 when sitting on the floor... but for most of my jobs they thumb OK in this single man config.
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Sorry for the delay... snapped some photos at the job tonight.
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/kw181/FullSizeRender%20(39).jpg
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/kw181/FullSizeRender%20(38).jpg
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/kw181/FullSizeRender%20(37).jpg
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/kw181/FullSizeRender%20(41).jpg
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/kw181/FullSizeRender%20(40).jpg
These angle iron frames are too big... the ding dong at the fabricator forgot to deduct the width of the angle iron from the inside dimension. :) Free works for me. Also is a photo of my pig tail I made to to link both.
Will try and find a good photo of the 153s stacked on them from the job.
I pref the sound of the 181 when sitting on the floor... but for most of my jobs they thumb OK in this single man config.
All pics give me an access denied error, fyi...
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
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All pics give me an access denied error, fyi...
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Working fine for me, (Chrome on Win7), are you using anything like a scriptblocker that may be more aggressive then necessary perhaps?
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All pics give me an access denied error, fyi...
Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
Try.... https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-0udqk8alQlOXlZNDctQVppWHc?usp=sharing
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Try.... https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-0udqk8alQlOXlZNDctQVppWHc?usp=sharing
Thanks Dave
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You've been given some great advice here. There are some really great sounding powered speakers available to us today. I own or have worked with everything discussed. Here's my brief impressions:
I too think it is a good idea to have a matched, single brand system.
KW181 - great sounding sub, and fairly small. The only downside is I'm not as big of a fan of their matching KW tops, which don't have the warmth and clarity of an SRX or Yamaha top.
SRX818 - also great sounding sub, gets plenty loud and deeper than my PRX sub's, but as one poster stated it sometimes lack that "punch" I'm looking for. I'm still learning with this PA and haven't used much EQ if any. My SRX system is (1) 815 over 818 per side, and is plenty adequate for even outdoor shows of 600-800. I do a summer concert in the park series with this system - sounds great. The 815 tops are fantastic but heavy. You'll need HD extension poles with these. I think if I were buying today I would get the 12" tops in lieu of the 15's.
Yamaha DXS18 - There is one in a club were I run the house system, and it reminds me of my SRX818, except not as warm sounding. It's really loud and deep though. The tops are K12's, which make fantastic monitors IMO. I also have a bunch of DSR112's which I use for floor monitors. They get crazy loud and are very clear and linear to my ears, but I prefer the JBL sound for mains. A pair of DSR's over the DXS18 sub's would make for a great sounding system, and it would have a much lower cost than the SRX stuff.
JBL PRX800 - You should be looking at this as well. I was going to sell mine (600 series) after purchasing the SRX last year, but in the end I kept it, and it actually get's used more. It is really light weight, and sounds great for small clubs with crowds up to 200-250. I run a 615 over a 618xlf per side.
Double 18's - I would certainly have dual 18's per side if I had room to transport them. If you do buy a trailer, then I highly recommend dual 18's. With all of the systems noted above, they would all sound better for rock music with dual 18's. There have been occasions that I ran a single stack, with both 18's under one top, and it really sounded fantastic. I need to get a trailer myself! As mentioned, the SRX 828 cab is the most economical route for this.
Mixwiz - Was a great board for it's time, but the small digital boards just plain sound better, and are more capable in a smaller, lighter package. I went from a Mixwiz to the suggested Mackie DL1608 4 years ago, and never looked back. The EQ's on each channel and output are really full-featured, and just a delight to use. I only use the parametric EQ's on the outputs now, which IMO are far better than the graphic EQ's (also available). Compression & gate on every channel, effects, etc - you no longer need a processing rack. There are many other great digital boards available as well, as others have mentioned. The A&H Qu series comes to mind if you want physical faders.
Pretty much do this as well. For smaller gigs use prx615s w 618xlf. Great system. Use SRX 725s and 728s. Setting up a chance to hear the srx835s, to possibly use with the 728s. 728s are hard to beat.
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Pretty much do this as well. For smaller gigs use prx615s w 618xlf. Great system. Use SRX 725s and 728s. Setting up a chance to hear the srx835s, to possibly use with the 728s. 728s are hard to beat.
There's a single 728 at one of the local clubs I work at, and man that thing sounds great. I need to get a trailer!
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There's a single 728 at one of the local clubs I work at, and man that thing sounds great. I need to get a trailer!
I wouldn't have a dozen of them if they sucked. Trying to see if I can get at least 6 more... waiting to hear back yes or no from JBL. :)
-Ray
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I wouldn't have a dozen of them if they sucked. Trying to see if I can get at least 6 more... waiting to hear back yes or no from JBL. :)
-Ray
The SRX 7XX series was a really good line all the way around IMO. The 715, 722, and 728 being the stars of the show in my book.
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Hi All
Still working on finding a trailer. If that works out I will likely start with a single 828 as that seems to be the obvious choice for a 2x18.
In the meantime, I ponied up and ordered a Qu16.
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Hi All
Still working on finding a trailer. If that works out I will likely start with a single 828 as that seems to be the obvious choice for a 2x18.
In the meantime, I ponied up and ordered a Qu16.
I own/use a QU-16 and QU-24..... Since you are used to a Mixwizard (of which I have two in my inventory) you will have little trouble transitioning to a QU.
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Patrick, we travel with a full size pickup with a cap, and due to the fact I like to use road cases for a lot of gear, there probably isn't room for a 828 at the moment and 2 1x18 might fit better. I am seriously considering getting a 5x8ish trailer though so I am trying not to let size dictate this too much. The worst part of the truck is lifting to the gate height so a trailer would be a dream come true for that reason alone. Budget is flexible and I am willing to wait to afford the right gear. I can find used KW181's for $1k ish locally if that's any indication of my budget.
From a business standpoint I would not opt to buy a trailer unless there is no other way to carry a rig that will cover 80% of your gigs.
I use a 2006 Ford Expedition (with a carrier...similar to: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200622234_200622234 ) to transport sound gear for 80-90% of my sound gigs. I rent a trailer for the larger gigs and pass the cost of the trailer onto the client.
Parking (and double-parking) a vehicle plus trailer can be a pain...
When I entered the sound-for-hire business I wanted to do the venture with the highest profit margin...I had set aside funds to purchase a trailer (Wells Cargo, with brakes, etc) but found that I would not need a trailer for most of my work...
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From a business standpoint I would not opt to buy a trailer unless there is no other way to carry a rig that will cover 80% of your gigs.
I use a 2006 Ford Expedition (with a carrier...similar to: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200622234_200622234 ) to transport sound gear for 80-90% of my sound gigs. I rent a trailer for the larger gigs and pass the cost of the trailer onto the client.
Parking (and double-parking) a vehicle plus trailer can be a pain...
When I entered the sound-for-hire business I wanted to do the venture with the highest profit margin...I had set aside funds to purchase a trailer (Wells Cargo, with brakes, etc) but found that I would not need a trailer for most of my work...
I dunno, there are plenty of providers that find trailers to work best from a business standpoint. I have done both...consider this. I had a Ford E250 that was bursting at the seams with our equipment. When the motor blew (and not worth fixing from a financial standpoint) I was faced with getting a new trailer for $3k that costs less than $50 a year to plate and insure and with far more extra space and headroom than my previous van, or a van that I'd be lucky to find a good working one for that price, costs $500 a year to plate and insure, needs oil changes and other maintenance, and unless I got a box van or one of those new tall vans I can't stand up inside it. Parking and maneuvering a trailer is the only downside, if you have a tow worthy vehicle already (that is a "sunk cost" and you are using for other purposes besides the sound equipment) I will bet the trailer is cheaper all around for most at the lounge level. This is a whole nother thread though, and if money was no object I'd be driving an extended length Sprinter.
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Hi All
Still working on finding a trailer. If that works out I will likely start with a single 828 as that seems to be the obvious choice for a 2x18.
In the meantime, I ponied up and ordered a Qu16.
Good luck with the trailer. It has been my best investment to date. I originally figured that a 5x 8 would work. Then I realized my truss was in 10' sections so I looked at a 5x10 trailer that would fit my needs. When I was talking to the salesman I asked how much a V-Nose would cost and it was $200 extra. He said for the same $200 I could just make the trailer 5x12 which would give me a bit of room for expansion.
For me, the number one feature or spec was that it had to fit inside my garage. That way I'm able to leave it loaded between gigs. So I had to go new, with the 5x12 and no roof vent. That gave me the clearance. Keeping it in the garage saves a good hour at the beginning and the end of a gig since I don't have to unload it. It keeps it out of the 95F and the -31F. Plus having it stored outside is a security risk. In my town everyone has a disc grinder and could steal it if they wanted to. If they REALLY wanted to they could drive a truck through my garage door and then take it from there as well. But that's immaterial.
The nice thing about ordering new is that I was able to add features like 2 rows of E-Track at specific heights that work for my gear. I also ordered a threshold plate that covers the space between the trailer floor and the ramp door when it's down. The ramp door makes it so I'm a one man operation, no help needed but it is appreciated.
Makes life a lot easier. Springs vs torsion was a long debate. I went with springs. The only thing I would do different is to get dual axles instead of a single axle, but at the time money was an object and where did it end
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z398/robare99/sound/A5BAAC11-0D26-4EE5-A62A-5CB56603AE3A.jpg) (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/robare99/media/sound/A5BAAC11-0D26-4EE5-A62A-5CB56603AE3A.jpg.html)
I too have a love of roadcases and everything straps down nicely.
I can haul:
2 LS800p's
2 Unity15's
4 YX12's
1 YX15
1 NX750p
4 Martin Minimac Profiles in a trunk
4 a chauvet Intimidator Spot Duos in a trunk
20 wash lights (Blizzard 3NX & Fab5's)
Truss stands
2 lengths of 8' 11"x2" triangle aluminum truss
Mic stands, mics, distro, feeder cable, backdrop and even a couple guitars, etc. Etc.
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z398/robare99/sound/AFB00E9F-CEEE-45AF-9E26-816DA1E181BC.jpg) (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/robare99/media/sound/AFB00E9F-CEEE-45AF-9E26-816DA1E181BC.jpg.html)
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Van versus trailer - either one will work if you make it work for you. I've opted for the van route over the past decade and have no complaints. In a standard wheelbase utility van (mine is a Chevy Express 1500) you get a little over 4ft x 9ft of clear storage, so enough for your basic SoS rig or small corporate event. What I've also done with my van is build custom racks over the wheel wells to hold my speaker stands, mic stands, cable ramps, utility ramp, generic SOOW, and miscellaneous lighting stand parts. This makes a HUGE difference in the amount of gear you can haul since the fiddly things aren't taking up room that could better be filled by a road case or loudspeaker.
A few downsides to the van worth considering though - no ramp built into the back door, so you'll either have to supply your own (which is what I did) or lift everything in and out. For my average sound or light rig I only have a handful of single items over 100 pounds in weight, so not a big deal in my case, whereas if you're using 200+pound speakers this really isn't a great option. You also don't have a lot of vertical stacking capability. Again, for a basic SoS rig you probably don't need that but even lifting anything around 80 pounds inside the back of the van is hard since you can't stand up all the way. Trailers don't have this problem and you can stack to the ceiling provided you can secure everything properly. As Rob also mentioned, trussing is really a nonstarter in the back of a van for all but the smallest kits. I put mine on a roof rack.
All of that said, I still love just driving a van! It's so much easier navigating inner city streets and one-way loading areas. When I eventually graduate to a larger sound system I'll have no choice but to get a trailer, but until then I'm happy with my van! I rent a Budget Truck for the small percentage of jobs that need more equipment than what my van can haul. Good luck!
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I had a ramp trailer when I was playing and bringing sound gear a lot. It was a boon. Probably saved 30-45 minutes at each end of load in/load out by being able to just roll stuff in and run a strap across it. Hobbling around inside my E150 is a pain.
Now that I'm not doing as much I've sold the trailer and built floor plates for the van so I have a perfectly flat surface to roll things around on. And gotten a folding wheelchair ramp. I actually find it easier to use the side door of the van instead of the back as there isn't as much going in and out hunched over. Beginning to keep my eye out for another trailer though. Sure was nice.
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I had a ramp trailer when I was playing and bringing sound gear a lot. It was a boon. Probably saved 30-45 minutes at each end of load in/load out by being able to just roll stuff in and run a strap across it. Hobbling around inside my E150 is a pain.
Now that I'm not doing as much I've sold the trailer and built floor plates for the van so I have a perfectly flat surface to roll things around on. And gotten a folding wheelchair ramp. I actually find it easier to use the side door of the van instead of the back as there isn't as much going in and out hunched over. Beginning to keep my eye out for another trailer though. Sure was nice.
Yes, we used the side door of the van to tilt our subs in, worked a lot better than tilting them in the back and having to push them all the way to the front. By the time we got rid of the van, it was chock full of speakers, lighting stands and trusses, and all the other pieces plus my bass rig, and we had to methodically place each piece in a certain position and order to fit.
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I don't have a van but do have a full size pickup. Lifting road cases into it really sucks.
I have a lot of experience with trailers from hauling race cars so maneuvering a 5x10 will be no problem and being able to roll stuff in will be fantastic on the back. Plus, I would be able to pull it with our SUV rather than the truck so the rig won't be too long. I'd rather not trade the truck for a van because I use it for a number of other purposes.
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Now that I have moved to the QU16, does this render my DRPA2 useless (I know some of you will say it was useless already)? I had previously been using it as an AFS failsafe (since I mix from stage) and its PEQ to store my system tuning curve. I could theoretically use the LR mix PEQ for this purpose and use the LR GEQ for venue corrections.
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I have a digital mixer, and one of the nice features is being able to save a different scene for the various halls etc that we play at.
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Now that I have moved to the QU16, does this render my DRPA2 useless (I know some of you will say it was useless already)? I had previously been using it as an AFS failsafe (since I mix from stage) and its PEQ to store my system tuning curve. I could theoretically use the LR mix PEQ for this purpose and use the LR GEQ for venue corrections.
I am a firm believer that system control should NOT be done at the console regardless of the console type. The way some folks carry on about getting rid of a 1 space, 6 lbs item you'd think it was poisonous or radioactive...
Because if the precious new digital mixer takes a dive and you pull out the old MixWiz, you're screwed. Because if you need to substitute a rented mixer with more inputs or the band brings their own console (or tablet-mixed L/R feed from monitors), you're screwed.
You can still save any venue-specific EQ in the mixer if you desire, but aligning and driving subs/tops/fills is best done outside the console.
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I am a firm believer that system control should NOT be done at the console regardless of the console type. The way some folks carry on about getting rid of a 1 space, 6 lbs item you'd think it was poisonous or radioactive...
Because if the precious new digital mixer takes a dive and you pull out the old MixWiz, you're screwed. Because if you need to substitute a rented mixer with more inputs or the band brings their own console (or tablet-mixed L/R feed from monitors), you're screwed.
You can still save any venue-specific EQ in the mixer if you desire, but aligning and driving subs/tops/fills is best done outside the console.
I tend to agree with Tim on this.
If you are using unpowered speakers, then you need to have an amp rack anyway. It just makes sense that the cross-over be in that rack so that you can just run the stereo out from the mixer to the cross-over and leave all the amp wiring for the 3 way or 2 way cross-over all in the back of a rack. The alternative is that you have a bunch (up to 3) XLR cables running from your mixer out to your amp rack.
If you are using powered speakers, it is highly likely that you have no need for a cross-over of any type and should simply run your L/R out from your mixer directly to the speakers.
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Thanks for the responses. Wasn't trying to eliminate for weight/space, but if it served no purpose, not reason to have it in the signal chain. Looks like the DRPA2 should remain simply for the PEQ settings I store in it for reasons listed by Tim. AFS is a bonus.
I plan to continue on the powered speaker route. In the short run, it may or may not be useful as a crossover when I add the subs. If I upgrade the tops down the line, they would likely match the subs, so onboard crossovers would be the first choice.
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Thanks for the responses. Wasn't trying to eliminate for weight/space, but if it served no purpose, not reason to have it in the signal chain. Looks like the DRPA2 should remain simply for the PEQ settings I store in it for reasons listed by Tim. AFS is a bonus.
I plan to continue on the powered speaker route. In the short run, it may or may not be useful as a crossover when I add the subs. If I upgrade the tops down the line, they would likely match the subs, so onboard crossovers would be the first choice.
Hi Brian,
If you buy subs with a cross-over built in, then running the tops full range from the HP output of the subs works quite well (and is how I run my rig).
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Hi Scott,
I do plan to do just that, thanks!
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Hi Everyone,
In the end, I decided to purchase a single SRX828sp to start. So the obvious next question, what is typically the best bet for positioning a single 2x18? In my application, I will not have much time to fiddle around with moving things about.
In general, when playing indoors, I would like most of the energy focused near the band and away from the bar areas, which in some cases are quite nearby. However, I would like vocals to remain intelligible throughout the room.
When outdoors, I would like a more even coverage of the entire program.
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Hi Everyone,
In the end, I decided to purchase a single SRX828sp to start. So the obvious next question, what is typically the best bet for positioning a single 2x18? In my application, I will not have much time to fiddle around with moving things about.
Simple answer? Anywhere.
Longer answer? It depends.
What you need to know?
-Corner loading typically will make the bass louder across some areas (especially another corner/near walls).
-Middle front of stage, will make the bass louder for anyone directly in front of the stage; but it uses up space in front of the stage (dance area)
-Side stage, messes with people's brains on symmetry visually, won't sonically sound much/any different than center stage, gives more room to dance.
Anywhere you place the sub will result in phase issues around crossover; there's virtually no way to get around that. So there's a point where it really doesn't matter.
In general, when playing indoors, I would like most of the energy focused near the band and away from the bar areas, which in some cases are quite nearby. However, I would like vocals to remain intelligible throughout the room.
When outdoors, I would like a more even coverage of the entire program.
This is accomplished via the mix and mains placement. Not sub placement.
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Thanks Nathan I was kind of expecting an answer like that. Re the vox, I'm aware but since everyone always asks what the goal is I thought I'd throw that in there.
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Thanks Nathan I was kind of expecting an answer like that. Re the vox, I'm aware but since everyone always asks what the goal is I thought I'd throw that in there.
Wasn't trying to be discourteous (I don't think that you think I was, just sayin' incase anyone thinks so).
Do you have some drawings of typical places you play? Maybe that can give a better idea and we can halps moar?
Main thing with single subs or doing subs on only one side is people think it's weird/unsymmetrical/doesn't look right.
But who cares. Listen with your EARS not your eyes (-Ivan).
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Nathan, not at all! I mean I was kind of expecting an "it depends" lol!
I am certainly not opposed to an asymmetric setup. In fact there is one place I have been experimenting with placing tops other than flanking the band. I appreciate the offer on the drawings. I'll try to find a moment to sketch a couple up. Thanks!
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Not at all. I get a lot of mileage out of 4 KW181s and 2 KW153s. I leave the 181s stacked and strapped, roll in/out, small rooms I power just one per side. The 153s sit on top. Small footprint, roll in/roll out; custom undercover NY soft cases for the stacked subs.
Dave,
When you get a chance, can you send me a pic of your set up? It sounds like something I might want to consider. I'm particularly interested in how you secure the tops to the sub stack during a show.
John
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I've since sold this setup so I cannot take any updated pics but here two some that should connect the dots...
top un-strapped in this photo...
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/kw1.jpg
in the wild...
http://dbmisc.s3.amazonaws.com/153_181_stack_strap.jpg
The subs are strapped to dolly board. I laced a single ratchet strap from below up through the handles of the stacked subs (not over top) and linked together at the ratchet below - so it was clean and out of sight. This allowed the padded covers to slip on as-is. The dolly board was custom angle iron with 4 locking casters.
The tops attached the same way - ratchet strap looping the handles of the 153s around the subs below. Care to tighten and later losen each side together to keep it from tipping but really this wasn't an issue. If you pop'd the ratchet at the end of the night without some on the other side the top would wiggle and "walk" maybe a 1/2 inch.
Tops and bottom strapped together into a single monolithic stack.
It was solid. I am sure a lawyer and half this board will tell me I was negligent and should be in prison. It worked for me for years, no issues. Looks more extreme in photos than real life. YMMV.
BTW - the custom Undercover NY for the stacked subs are sitting in storage, no good offer will be turned down! They were $380 new and in lovely condition. :) The dolly boards cost $50/each + casters from my local fabrication shop - build/buy your own.
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Tops and bottom strapped together into a single monolithic stack.
It was solid. I am sure a lawyer and half this board will tell me I was negligent and should be in prison. It worked for me for years, no issues. Looks more extreme in photos than real life. YMMV.
Looks alright to me, so long as those wheels lock well. If someone really wanted to, they could probably knock it over. Bolting it to the ground would be the only way to stop that happening, so I think your approach is entirely reasonable.
Chris
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So, the K12s have a HPF at 100 using the Ext Sub setting. I can set the DSP in the SRX828 to a 100 LFP and use the direct out on one K12 to feed the sub (or vice versa).
My question is, would I gain anything by using the DRPA2 for crossover duty instead?
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So, the K12s have a HPF at 100 using the Ext Sub setting. I can set the DSP in the SRX828 to a 100 LFP and use the direct out on one K12 to feed the sub (or vice versa).
My question is, would I gain anything by using the DRPA2 for crossover duty instead?
Ability to time align them is one thing. I use to think this mattered a lot more than I do now with front loaded subs. The mis-alignment distance is almost inperceivable to the ear. More impact by delaying mains to backline IMO. I took my DR out of my signal chain on most of my setups and think they all sound better because of it.
If you're not using the limiter or the EQ or the AFS or any other of the useless features of the driverack, I see no reason to leave it in.
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Hi Scott,
The main feature I am still using is the parametric EQ. Per Tims suggestion earlier, I still store my system tuning there. Since I am still using K12s as mains, the only other place I could potentially store that is in the mixer. My plan was to remove the DR when I eventually upgrade the mains to matching SRX boxes as I would then be able to store system EQ in the speaker DSP.
I was going to ask about alignment. My thoughts were there would not be much benefit in small rooms where I cannot get ideal sub placement. If I were to place the sub on one side with one of the mains, would there be any benefit to attempting to align for, say, a mid dance floor listening position? I don't see how this would work well with the sub being different distances from both mains.
Regarding alignment of mains to the back line, how much will this matter when the back line is only 6' back from the mains and the stage is comparatively wide?
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Regarding alignment of mains to the back line, how much will this matter when the back line is only 6' back from the mains and the stage is comparatively wide?
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More than you would think. I typically have a 8-10' backline offset, and can definitely hear the difference in clarity with delaying to the mains.
You don't have to worry about vocals or anything that isn't generating significant sound on stage, but time aligning the drums and amps to the mains REALLY helps.
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More than you would think. I typically have a 8-10' backline offset, and can definitely hear the difference in clarity with delaying to the mains.
You don't have to worry about vocals or anything that isn't generating significant sound on stage, but time aligning the drums and amps to the mains REALLY helps.
Once again, you can make that alignment valid for only 1 spot in the room, for 1 source and 1 PA speaker.
If the listeners are centered and further back than the PA is spread apart, you can *kind of* think of it as planar, even though each source is spherically radiating. When you get closer to the stage the individual sources and their distance relationship to the PA speakers and various places in the audience area becomes the predominate factor. Fixing THAT for one spot means making it worse somewhere else (and maybe that's okay, or not).
We had an act through recently that put a small powered speaker on top of the bass rig which was right next to the drum riser. The front fills & PA were aligned to that source, and then everything else (off stage hangs, subs) were aligned to the main PA. The BE did some delay on a couple of inputs as well to pull it together more. Since I couldn't A/B the band with/without the delay alignment I can't say how much or how little improvement there might have been, but overall I though he had a good mix and if that alignment helped him turn the knobs the right amount or push all the right buttons then his time was properly used.
In smaller rooms where there are multiple reflections - some early, some late and almost all of them at nearly equal levels - I'm not sure how much finesse is required once you get within a millisecond or so.
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More than you would think. I typically have a 8-10' backline offset, and can definitely hear the difference in clarity with delaying to the mains.
You don't have to worry about vocals or anything that isn't generating significant sound on stage, but time aligning the drums and amps to the mains REALLY helps.
I agree 100%. I tend to mic eveything even in small rooms just to fatten the sound up a tad and I know I can hear 6' on the kick. I specifically recall a gig I did in a hotel ballroom with a small stage where I just couldn't seemed to get vocal clarity in the mix. I happen to notice I never delayed the mains, took a stab at the distance and punched in the delay and instant clarity. First time I had ever done that in the middle of a set. The vocals themselves didn't change any but the tightening up of the backline to the PA made them instantly pop out by giving them room in the mix. It was so dramatic I was tempted to A/B it live to experience it again and again. The band must have heard it too because more than one member mentioned the room mix suddenly getting better.
Some people like to delay each individual item, but considering most of the time the backline items are already pretty much aligned with each other I usually just delay the LR and call it a day. Exception being delaying snare top to OHs. I am convinced most mediocre mixes I hear could be improved dramatically with just by delaying the mains and some judicious use of HPF and LPFs.
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In smaller rooms where there are multiple reflections - some early, some late and almost all of them at nearly equal levels - I'm not sure how much finesse is required once you get within a millisecond or so.
Hi Tim, are you saying that you believe alignment in small rooms is not a worthwhile activity, generally speaking, or am I misreading this?
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Hi Tim, are you saying that you believe alignment in small rooms is not a worthwhile activity, generally speaking, or am I misreading this?
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No, I'm saying it's even more an imprecise exercise than when you do it in bigger rooms with a more spread out audience.
If it's going to be be "wrong" everywhere but 1 place in the room, how "wrong" can it be and still be an improvement? If you've got a typical L/R speaker placement and the stage isn't in a corner you can use the measured distance between the loudest thing on stage and the mains. Now, where do you stand and which main speaker do you measure to? See where I'm going with this?
In smaller rooms what I have done is very simple: I stand between the mains, about as far back as the L/R speakers are apart, and measure the distance to the snare drum or guitar amp or kazoo amp or whatever, and then maintaining the same distance from the stage & standing on-axis with a mains PA speaker, measure to it. Subtract, convert to milliseconds and enter the delay for L/R; presuming the subs are already aligned with the tops, add the same amount of delay to them as well. That's the starting point and you may add a couple more ms. (or not, if you can't tell the difference when the punters show up).
The thing is in small rooms the reflections from ceiling, walls and various furnishings like bars and banquettes are typically within the 6dB-12dB range for combing - with both the origin sounds and the other reflections. For the folks who are within the *critical distance* of the PA and also getting direct stage SPL there is benefit to such alignment. For the audience who hears primarily either the stage or PA, not so much, and for those punters beyond the *critical distance*, it probably makes little difference (but how much it might help is determined by factors we can't predict in our discussion here).
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Ok I see what you are saying. So, since you mention alignment w the sub, I assume that is worthwhile too. What would you recommend as an alignment procedure between sub and tops in my situation where I am using one sub and it is placed to one side or the other? I would think aligning it to one top could make things unpredictably worse in it alignment w the other side (frequency dependent).
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Ok I see what you are saying. So, since you mention alignment w the sub, I assume that is worthwhile too. What would you recommend as an alignment procedure between sub and tops in my situation where I am using one sub and it is placed to one side or the other? I would think aligning it to one top could make things unpredictably worse in it alignment w the other side (frequency dependent).
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That's why I used the conditional language. ;) IF you have a non-traditional sub placement...
Do this: play some pink noise through the subs and note the measured SPL (C weight, long). Turn off the sub and play pink in the mains LF and set the level to match the subwoofers. Turn the subs back on and walk the coverage area, listening for areas with really wacky nulls. If you can adjust your L/R delay via remote, add delay to the mains until the null changes frequency and then go back and listen in an area where you were previously happy... Now you probably won't be...
There is a lot of energy in the *acoustic crossover*, which is the part of the spectrum where 2 adjacent pass bands contribute equal amounts of energy. The acoustic crossover is almost never the same frequency as the electrical crossover, BTW. The acoustic crossover region is the bandwidth over which the 2 adjacent pass bands have energy within 12dB of each other, and often this region is over an octave wide. If you can make those 2 transducers play nice with each other in the phase relationship one can achieve more usable (and better sounding) output in that region.
It's a time thing, really.. 8)
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Ok, yeah I get that. I am going to set up in the driveway tomorrow and attempt to get a baseline tuning. Thanks!
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Put together a good mic package and IEM system, and hire the house gear.
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I have a great mic package and an IEM rig. As far as hiring foh gear, the horses have bolted so not much sense in shutting the stable door :)
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Here is a drawing of a bar we are playing tonight (I'm aware its far from ideal - we try to maintain lower stage volume here.). Hoping for some advice on speaker positioning. I don't have room dimensions but the stage is approx 20' wide and I think the room is on the order of 25x50. The ceiling is 8' except over the stage where it is quite a bit higher. The stage is elevated about 8". The only real reasonable positions for mains are at A, B and C. I have used the A/B config and the B/C config in the past. B/C reduced volume at the bar and gave slightly more even coverage even though it looks at bit wonky. But now I need to locate the SRX828 and my initial thought is to place it vertically at B or C with a top stacked above. I'd appreciate any ideas. Thanks!
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Put the sub at location B.
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Thanks Tim
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Where to people dance or otherwise listen to the band? I've done the single top at B as well. You could have a second speaker at A but turn it down and point it towards C. Speaker at B pointed at the left corner of what I presume is an entrance. Folks at the bar will hear, just not as much HF. Figuring that people around the bar have other agendas ;) you're directing the best sound at the folks right in front of you.
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Combination at this place. A number of people dance in the area in front of the stage and many more listen from all sides of the bar. Not the greatest room but a great crowd to play to.
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Where to people dance or otherwise listen to the band? I've done the single top at B as well. You could have a second speaker at A but turn it down and point it towards C. Speaker at B pointed at the left corner of what I presume is an entrance. Folks at the bar will hear, just not as much HF. Figuring that people around the bar have other agendas ;) you're directing the best sound at the folks right in front of you.
This is exactly how I would do it as well.
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So, set up the sub at B. Top stacked above and another at C on a stick. Both angled slightly inwards firing down the length of the room. I could not really assess because I was on stage but several usual audience members noted the improvement. Tops are high passed at 100 so I think the extra headroom helped quite a bit. Thanks all for the advice
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Perfect timing :)
https://www.merlijnvanveen.nl/en/study-hall/133-where-to-time-align-center-sub
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Hi All,
Just reporting back that I am very happy with the srx828. So much so I'm considering srx tops (edit: 2-way) by the end of year, much sooner than I had anticipated. Do you consider this a definite step up from the K12s with respect their costs? I know they sound quite a bit better but doing a reality check here from a spending perspective. Half the impetus to do this moving at least one K12 to wedge duty. The other half would be better quality output particularly at higher SPL.
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Hi All,
Just reporting back that I am very happy with the srx828. So much so I'm considering srx tops (edit: 2-way) by the end of year, much sooner than I had anticipated. Do you consider this a definite step up from the K12s with respect their costs? I know they sound quite a bit better but doing a reality check here from a spending perspective. Half the impetus to do this moving at least one K12 to wedge duty. The other half would be better quality output particularly at higher SPL.
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The SRX powered tops are fantastic (I have the 815's). They will provide a ton of output and do it very nicely with little to no EQ needed. There is absolutely no comparison to a K12. I like K12's on monitor duty. With a pair of SRX tops over the 828 sub and K12's on monitors, you will have an enviable rock system that will work in any small club and is suitable for small outside concerts of 500 or more.
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Thanks Steve, appreciate the feedback.
I am leaning toward the 812 due to size. I don't see a substantial difference in performance between it and the 815 on paper. Is there any in practice? Steve, why did you choose the 15" woofer?
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A bigger driver can move more air, and will have more headroom (all other things being equal) towards the bottom of its range. Since you're crossing to a sub, that's not a huge concern for you, but still, a 15" will put out more at 100Hz than a 12".
I'd see if you can get a demo and figure out if the 12" + sub will be enough for you.
Chris
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Thanks Steve, appreciate the feedback.
I am leaning toward the 812 due to size. I don't see a substantial difference in performance between it and the 815 on paper. Is there any in practice? Steve, why did you choose the 15" woofer?
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The 15 is a personal preference, which provides more punch IMO. I mostly mix rock bands, and I use 2-way 15's over single 18 subs (have 2 small systems). Most here would probably recommend the 812p, which will also be very good IMO.
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Thank you Steve. I will do a search as I'm sure 812v815 has been discussed at length already!
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