Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on April 26, 2010, 06:26:57 PM
I'm actually looking for some HELPFUL suggestions.
What do you guys do when a band cancels a gig you are to run sound for, or what do you do to prevent this from happening? I'm tired of getting cancellations the night of, on the way to, or 4 days before. Sometimes its the bands, sometimes its "the venue double booked us" line of crap, etc. What can I do to prevent this while still being reasonable. I understand things come up, and there are exceptions, but what is the best thing to do in a situation like this? I dont want to write the band off entirely. In fact, one band that has done this (tonight specifically and not the first time) hires only me to run their sound, they dont want anyone else...but its really damn irritating when I get cancelled and I could have booked something else and my bills get paid.
Discuss please. I would like some precautions and repercussions.
Post by: Greg Cameron on April 26, 2010, 06:34:48 PM
Greg
Post by: Bruce Gering on April 26, 2010, 06:41:20 PM
Most gigs I run involve about 50% labor in my quote, usually 2-3 guys, sometimes just myself. 50% is about right, but anything is good. Also, it depends on the relationship with the band that you have as to bring it up in the first place. If it's once in a blue moon and they are regulars...let it slide.
Post by: Bruce Gering on April 26, 2010, 06:58:40 PM
| Greg Cameron wrote on Mon, 26 April 2010 17:34 |
Insist on a 50% deposit up front. That way you're not empty handed if things fall apart. Greg |
...and you will not get that work either, not in a small market/show. but it's all market based even for deposits. Most bands on the small club level in small markets, and even some a step above that, would never pay in advance for the simple fact that they are not collecting any advance ticket sales and that the income for shows comes in a show to show basis.
As the pay scale escalates, so does the need for deposits on shows.
Ben, this is an area where you employ some people skills and it gets interesting. You have to weigh in the factors to arrive at a logical plan on how to handle it. Best of luck to you and I suggest you communicate with the band about the lost revenues and have the figures ready to prove your point.
Post by: Charlie Zureki on April 26, 2010, 07:02:49 PM
| benjamin fisher wrote on Mon, 26 April 2010 17:26 |
I know, dont book them anymore. Or, suck it up. I'm actually looking for some HELPFUL suggestions. What do you guys do when a band cancels a gig you are to run sound for, or what do you do to prevent this from happening? I'm tired of getting cancellations the night of, on the way to, or 4 days before. Sometimes its the bands, sometimes its "the venue double booked us" line of crap, etc. What can I do to prevent this while still being reasonable. I understand things come up, and there are exceptions, but what is the best thing to do in a situation like this? I dont want to write the band off entirely. In fact, one band that has done this (tonight specifically and not the first time) hires only me to run their sound, they dont want anyone else...but its really damn irritating when I get cancelled and I could have booked something else and my bills get paid. Discuss please. I would like some precautions and repercussions. |
Ben, there is no discussion, if you want to be professional, you need to act professional. That means, with a contract, and some money up front as a non returnable, booking fee that will be applied to the full quoted price that you charge.
If they can't abide by your terms, then find new clients.
Good Luck, and get professional.
Cheers,
Hammer
ps. remember: "Business is business and friendship is friendship, but when money is involved.....It's F'n Business baby!"
Post by: Todd Black on April 26, 2010, 07:46:01 PM
Post by: Jeff Wheeler on April 26, 2010, 07:50:38 PM
This was all earlier this month, but I seriously doubt this band will use me again. I don't care, because they only play 1 or 2 nights a month and their cancellation rate was about 30%.
My understanding is the cancellations pretty much all came from band drama, and I don't need to deal with that shit. I understand if it's not within their control -- venue cancels, weather, illness, whatever; but I have work to do and money to earn, and I have zero respect for band drama interfering with my income.
Post by: Steve Hurt on April 26, 2010, 08:19:34 PM
If it's a particular club where a double booking happens, don't take gigs at that club without a deposit and tell the band exactly why you are asking for a deposit. Some clubs have a habit of this.
Also agree with Bruce, in my area, asking for a deposit for a bar sound gig, means you don't work.
Bar gigs are talked about as the dregs of sound for a reason!
(and bar gigs are most of what I do)
Post by: Dick Rees on April 26, 2010, 08:29:45 PM
| Steve Hurt wrote on Mon, 26 April 2010 19:19 |
Bar gigs are talked about as the dregs of sound for a reason! (and bar gigs are most of what I do) |
I think they opened for my band once......
Post by: Mike Reilly on April 26, 2010, 09:59:57 PM
| benjamin fisher wrote on Mon, 26 April 2010 18:26 |
I know, dont book them anymore. Or, suck it up. I'm actually looking for some HELPFUL suggestions. |
But these are really your only options - in the medium to long view, that is.
Which is to say, you have to think hard about whether the advantages of working with a particular band (number of gigs, income, connections with venues & festivals & other bands, so on & so forth) outweigh the lack of work & income when they cancel on you.
If so, then you essentially suck it up. If you gripe at them (in a professional manner, of course) it's possible that they might voluntarily slip you a few bucks, or pay you extra on your next few gigs, or try to make it up to you in some other way.
If it's not worth it, then just flat out tell them, "I'm sorry, you're unreliable clients and I can't continue to book jobs that fall through at the last minute."
In the short view, if you haven't gotten a deposit, you're SOL, and I agree with Bruce that getting deposits for bar band gigs is unlikely.
| Quote: |
hires only me to run their sound, they dont want anyone else... |
This is flattering, but flattery doesn't pay the electric bill. Don't make too much of this.
Post by: James Feenstra on April 26, 2010, 11:57:17 PM
you cancel 48 hours or less before a gig, I still get paid at least half because I've already scheduled my time for whoever is hiring me
for touring, if the run gets canceled a week or less before I actually go out, I still get my first weeks pay considering I've probably advanced the better part of the tour by then and should be paid for my time
Post by: Duane Massey on April 27, 2010, 12:34:53 AM
Post by: Stuart Pendleton on April 27, 2010, 10:17:42 AM
I was carrying a heavy rig at the time (more than this geezer could move alone) and had to pay help every night from my fee. Helpers wanted pay even if the gig was cancelled, exactly like we want. The deal with the bands that I decided to stay with went like this:
I will lay off my helper. A minimum of one and generally two of the band will arrive when I do on my schedule and assist with all load in, lifting, placement, and will learn to follow my instructions and assemble the rig with me, to include lighting. At the end of the night, a minimum of one and generally two will stay until my trailer door is closed and will learn to carefully dismantle and pack the gear. They learned to roll cords my way, and where every item was packed.
My load in/out time was cut in half (that was 2-3 hours per show.) They learned a respect for what I do and provide, and why I charge the rates I do (which are cheaper than many here, but more than bands like.) I made more money per show because expenses dropped and I invested less time. At the end of the year, the cancellations were offset by the extra revenue when shows went as planned.
Then I picked the band that worked the best with me, did the most help, and paid the most, and most importantly had the best chance of long term success.) I told them my company would give them an exclusive service contract if they kept me busy, held up their end of our deal, and kept politics, grief, and misery to a minimum.
By the end of the first year with them, the band had improved and the rates for the band went up a LOT (we started doing playing for more than twice what we were getting before.) The band just started raising my pay because they realized the effort I put in and because they could afford it (I get from 25% to 200% more each night now.) They also attributed much of their success to my PA/lights and didn't want to lose their advantage. If someone threw a tip on the floor, they also gave it to me ($100 bill more than once extra at the end of the night...)
Make them share the work when times are good so that when they are bad, you won't hurt as much from it. Sorry this was so long, but maybe you can come up with a "deal" with the bands that are the most reliable and seem to have the most future (read that as best chance of paying off on your investment.)
Good luck and I hope you can sort this out. If you can take the legal contract route with deposits, you have to be inventive.
Post by: Jayson Sladen on April 27, 2010, 11:47:28 AM
Anything less than this you are asking to be messed about, and setting out your stall as amateur, in my opinion.
Good luck.
Post by: Ryan McLeod on April 27, 2010, 12:30:43 PM
Post by: Greg Cameron on April 27, 2010, 02:41:22 PM
| Bruce Gering wrote on Mon, 26 April 2010 15:58 | ||
...and you will not get that work either, not in a small market/show. but it's all market based even for deposits. Most bands on the small club level in small markets, and even some a step above that, would never pay in advance for the simple fact that they are not collecting any advance ticket sales and that the income for shows comes in a show to show basis. |
And there's the rub. It sounds like the OP is losing out either way regularly. Damned if he does request a deposit or if he doesn't. I guess that's when it's time to decide if it's worth it or not. Really, if the gigs are that small, I suspect a 50% deposit is a relatively small dollar amount. If they can't cough it up, walking away might be in his best interest if the show is sketchy to being with. The venue I do the majority of my business at isn't that big, ~500 capacity. But I usually don't have problems collecting deposits when requested. Fortunately, it is a small town and I usually don't need one.
Greg
Post by: Scott Smith on April 27, 2010, 04:19:28 PM
| Greg Cameron wrote on Tue, 27 April 2010 14:41 |
And there's the rub. It sounds like the OP is losing out either way regularly. Damned if he does request a deposit or if he doesn't. I guess that's when it's time to decide if it's worth it or not. |
All markets are not the same! It just depends... and it may depend on how "hungry" you are for work, especially if someone else will meet the local needs.
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on April 27, 2010, 04:42:17 PM
I've seriously considered enforcing deposits a long time ago, but these bands in this local bar scene are not only poor to begin with, but they are making chump change from the bars. I cant start a revolution, so this is just how it is. I will probably lose 90% of my gigs if I charge a deposit. Great idea, but wont work.
I need to let these bands know what this does to my schedule/pay when they cancel, and from now on make more of an effort to inform the bands of this when they first book a date with me. I need to make sure they know what happens to ME when they cancel. And anyone with half a heart will understand, musician or not. Business has been slow enough as it is, so finding a last minute replacement is little to none (of course when I already have two gigs back to back like last weekend
)Trust me, as someone mentioned, I am NOT flattered that one particular band only uses me for sound, but it is a good thing for me. Then again if they like me that much they better start doing something to make me want to keep coming back or else they will have to find someone else.
James, you say you get paid atleast half due to your "48hr policy". You enforce this how? Just like any other clause in any sort of "contract", how do you enforce it without making it into a bigger deal than what it is. KEEPING IN MIND that these are shitty bar gigs.
Thanks for everyones posts, I'm thinking it all over.
Post by: Dick Rees on April 27, 2010, 05:03:38 PM
Post by: Bill McIntosh on April 27, 2010, 09:57:43 PM
That way they see we both have skin in the game. It may not make a difference in your case, but is something to consider.
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on April 28, 2010, 11:15:33 AM
Post by: Dick Rees on April 28, 2010, 11:17:54 AM
| benjamin fisher wrote on Wed, 28 April 2010 10:15 |
I guess its just the bar band scene. Another reason I need to upgrade and get out of it...but where to go next... |
Nowhere but up.......
Post by: Dave Rickard on April 28, 2010, 11:20:08 AM
| benjamin fisher wrote on Tue, 27 April 2010 14:42 |
James, you say you get paid atleast half due to your "48hr policy". You enforce this how? Just like any other clause in any sort of "contract", how do you enforce it without making it into a bigger deal than what it is. KEEPING IN MIND that these are shitty bar gigs. Thanks for everyones posts, I'm thinking it all over. |
Put your "business hat" on. You enforce it by not booking with them again until it is paid. Why work at forming an alliance with deadbeats? Is that what you want your business to be?
If you lose that client, find a better client. If there are no better clients, then your market can't support your business.
You're in Columbus right? Maybe your market is saturated with other fine companies who are established? Maybe you haven't established the chops and gear to support better gigs?
This is a business, and if you can't operate with a reasonable business model in your market, then it's not viable.
You've got some tough thinking to do.
----------------
We use the 50% non-refundable deposit for gigs that don't yet have a history with us. I would immediately move this client to "deposit status". Keep the status quo with other bands if it's working fine.
Good luck.
Post by: Dave Dermont on April 28, 2010, 11:48:32 AM
| Bill McIntosh wrote on Tue, 27 April 2010 21:57 |
My contract specifies a deposit, which I vary (or even waive) depending on the client. If they cancel, no refund. But to be fair, if I cancel or don't complete the event, they are entitled to a full refund. That way they see we both have skin in the game. It may not make a difference in your case, but is something to consider. |
One question.
How is holding on to someone's money, then giving it back if you breach a contract having 'skin in the game'?
Just wondering.
DD
Post by: Stuart Pendleton on April 28, 2010, 12:05:42 PM
But more so, I think he had a "talking point" without a lot to back it up when push comes to shove.
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on April 28, 2010, 12:56:55 PM
Post by: Adam Schaible on April 28, 2010, 01:12:11 PM
| Stuart Pendleton wrote on Wed, 28 April 2010 11:05 |
Dave, I thought that too but having to refund it all if he doesn't complete the gig was mentioned. If he means he does 3 hours of a 4 hour show and the console dies without a backup, so he cancels and refunds all the deposit and worked 3 hours for free, then maybe he has something in the game. But more so, I think he had a "talking point" without a lot to back it up when push comes to shove. |
Agree'd. Lots of vendors do this though -- it's straw man. I do require a deposit for bar bands unless they are booked within a week of the gig and I have the date open - mainly because by the time I can get a check in the mail or meet up with them the date is only a day or two away. My depsoit is pretty small though, if I'm charging $500 I might ask for $50. You'd be surprised how far a $20 check in the mail will push them.
Not that the $20 makes much of a difference to you, but it's more than money. They are more likely to remember their responsibilities to you and are more likely to read the agreement. If they cancel on you once, up the deposit. Think of it like a bank with overdraft. The first one or two is cheap but then they get expensive.
If they push back about the deposit, it's ok to waive or reduce it, but be honest and respectful. If they can't swing $20 as a band, then they may not be worth it to you overall.
Also, my prices are on the low side ($250-$300 for a 1 over 1 bar rig) but some of the best advice I got on here -- get one or two of the band members to help you load in and out. I don't want to do the work by myself and this policy lets me do what I enjoy, and do less of what I hate (loading). This will let you make more overall and you'll be more connected with the members, and most of them don't mind.
Post by: Ned Ward on April 28, 2010, 04:32:31 PM
On corresponding with the bands, how man times do you check in with them after booking a date to confirm?
While it may not solve all your cancellations, it may be helpful if you're being booked more than 2-3 weeks out to call them or meet with them as a reminder - can be to ensure they haven't added a second drummer, baliphone section, etc. but also reminds them about the gig in a good way vs. a nudge way. Remember, many, not all musicians are creative folks, but not necessarily the best with dates and numbers...
We do a similar thing when our band books a bar - we call 1 week prior to confirm the show, and then to get details on when we can load in, who will be there, etc. When I set the date in my iPhone, I add an alert 1 week prior to call and another 2 days prior to get all our gear together.
This may help you out on limiting cancellations, but also can build stronger rapports with the bands.
Post by: (BJ) Benjamin Fisher on April 28, 2010, 04:47:16 PM
Adam, I will probably start doing a small $25-50 deposit unless I've been working with you and you have had no hiccups. This has got to stop!
Post by: Bill McIntosh on April 28, 2010, 09:20:13 PM
| Stuart Pendleton wrote on Wed, 28 April 2010 12:05 |
Dave, I thought that too but having to refund it all if he doesn't complete the gig was mentioned. If he means he does 3 hours of a 4 hour show and the console dies without a backup, so he cancels and refunds all the deposit and worked 3 hours for free, then maybe he has something in the game. But more so, I think he had a "talking point" without a lot to back it up when push comes to shove. |
Your first point is correct, although I have not had to refund yet. Call it marketing, since I was thinking more about 2 or 3 day corporate events than bar gigs.
Maybe it's not of any value, but no one has complained about it yet. However, if my gear fails and screws up the event -- it's my bad for not doing proper preventative maintenance.