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Church and H.O.W. Forums for HOW Sound and AV - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Church and HOW Forums => Church Sound => Topic started by: Asaph Ace on May 24, 2013, 01:43:37 am

Title: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Asaph Ace on May 24, 2013, 01:43:37 am
What installation type of speakers do you recommend? i already check the JBL AE series but i never reviews about it. I checked their passive PRX too! is there any brand or specific model do you guys recommend for a church? must be affordable too! :) 
Title: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Jeff Foster on May 24, 2013, 10:20:58 am
What installation type of speakers do you recommend? i already check the JBL AE series but i never reviews about it. I checked their passive PRX too! is there any brand or specific model do you guys recommend for a church? must be affordable too! :)

The type of speakers that I would recommend are totally dependent on what you plan to do with them, where they will be located, what your seating arrangement is like, what your acoustics are like, etc. etc.   I will not, and can not, give you a good recommendation without knowing anything about your environment and how you plan to use them.

That said, we use (and love) the JBL AE series speakers.  They work great for our needs.  I've got a few installed in our main worship center, and I've also installed other AE speakers at our summer camp in the chapel.

I would say the AE series is one of the most overlooked speaker series for permanent installs.  Like you found, there are very few reviews on any of them.   However, I've never heard anyone complain about them.  As long as they fit the environment, they are an excellent option.
Title: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Brad Weber on May 24, 2013, 10:37:13 am
What installation type of speakers do you recommend? i already check the JBL AE series but i never reviews about it. I checked their passive PRX too! is there any brand or specific model do you guys recommend for a church? must be affordable too! :)
Interesting that you mention the JBL AE series as there are multiple models and versions in that series, a direct reflection that the proper solution can vary depending on the situation.
 
Jeff is absolutely right.  There are vast variations in the expectations and goals of different houses of worship/praise.  The related physical spaces also differ greatly in size, shape, acoustics, aesthetics, where speakers can be located and so on.  The definition of what "affordable" represents can also vary significantly.
 
Whether stated or not, recommendations offered without sufficient basis are often actually addressing what the respondent would do in their situation, which may or may not have much relevance to your situation and thus may or may not actually be applicable.
Title: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 24, 2013, 09:17:39 pm
Here are the steps for choosing the correct loudspeaker.

You cannot skip steps

1:  Determine possible loudspeaker hang locations and what type of system you are looking for-Mono-stereo LCR etc.  UNDERSTAND what the differences and limitations of each type of system are.  This is VERY important.

2: Determine what coverage patterns are needed for the type of system and possible hang locations.

3:Determine how loud the system needs to be-BE REALISTIC! 

4:Determine what the budget for loudspeaker-amps-processing-cabling is.  It doesn't matter what the rest of the system is comprised of.

5: NOW you can start to look for loudspeakers that have the proper coverage-SPL output (Be sure to consider LISTENABLE SPL-NOT just how loud it can get-it doesn't matter how loud it can go if it doesn't sound good) AND are within budget.

6: Now that you have narrowed it down-you can start the "fun" process in trying to determine which loudspeaker sounds better.  Remember that different people think different things sound better.

You CANNOT choose a loudspeaker that "sounds good" in the music store and think it will work for you room.  You HAVE to do all the "boring stuff" first.  IF you want a successful system.

If you just want to stick a particular speaker in a room because somebody "recommended it", then go ahead-but just be ready to defend the choice to the people that are paying for it.
Title: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Frank DeWitt on May 25, 2013, 10:43:38 am
Here are the steps for choosing the correct loudspeaker.

You cannot skip steps


Ivan,  I am submitting for comment 2A  and 5A

1:  Determine possible loudspeaker hang locations and what type of system you are looking for-Mono-stereo LCR etc.  UNDERSTAND what the differences and limitations of each type of system are.  This is VERY important.

2: Determine what coverage patterns are needed for the type of system and possible hang locations.
2A:  Model the room in software.

3:Determine how loud the system needs to be-BE REALISTIC! 

4:Determine what the budget for loudspeaker-amps-processing-cabling is.  It doesn't matter what the rest of the system is comprised of.

5: NOW you can start to look for loudspeakers that have the proper coverage-SPL output (Be sure to consider LISTENABLE SPL-NOT just how loud it can get-it doesn't matter how loud it can go if it doesn't sound good) AND are within budget.
5 A  Insert these speakers in the model and run the software and check coverage.

6: Now that you have narrowed it down-you can start the "fun" process in trying to determine which loudspeaker sounds better.  Remember that different people think different things sound better.

You CANNOT choose a loudspeaker that "sounds good" in the music store and think it will work for you room.  You HAVE to do all the "boring stuff" first.  IF you want a successful system.

If you just want to stick a particular speaker in a room because somebody "recommended it", then go ahead-but just be ready to defend the choice to the people that are paying for it.

Frank
Title: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 25, 2013, 04:05:40 pm
Ivan,  I am submitting for comment 2A  and 5A

1:  Determine possible loudspeaker hang locations and what type of system you are looking for-Mono-stereo LCR etc.  UNDERSTAND what the differences and limitations of each type of system are.  This is VERY important.

2: Determine what coverage patterns are needed for the type of system and possible hang locations.
2A:  Model the room in software.

3:Determine how loud the system needs to be-BE REALISTIC! 

4:Determine what the budget for loudspeaker-amps-processing-cabling is.  It doesn't matter what the rest of the system is comprised of.

5: NOW you can start to look for loudspeakers that have the proper coverage-SPL output (Be sure to consider LISTENABLE SPL-NOT just how loud it can get-it doesn't matter how loud it can go if it doesn't sound good) AND are within budget.
5 A  Insert these speakers in the model and run the software and check coverage.

6: Now that you have narrowed it down-you can start the "fun" process in trying to determine which loudspeaker sounds better.  Remember that different people think different things sound better.

You CANNOT choose a loudspeaker that "sounds good" in the music store and think it will work for you room.  You HAVE to do all the "boring stuff" first.  IF you want a successful system.

If you just want to stick a particular speaker in a room because somebody "recommended it", then go ahead-but just be ready to defend the choice to the people that are paying for it.

Frank
Of course the w comments you added are the same thing.  You can "model the room" but unless you put a speaker in the model-an "empty model" tells you almost nothing.

Yes if you do a FULL EASE model-with the correct surfaces and model down to 6" or less-you can get an idea of things like reverb time etc-but that tells you nothing about a loudspeakers performance.

In my "step 2" I was assuming "perfect" coverage angles.  Now whether or not the particular loudspeakers actually HAVE that coverage (on more than the spec sheet) is often quite a different matter.

But at least you start off with things like "do I need a 100 or a 60 speaker to cover a particular area.  And how low (in freq) does that coverage need to extend?  Of course that starts to limit the physical size of the loudspeaker.
Title: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Asaph Ace on May 26, 2013, 12:42:34 am
Thanks for the quick guide and infos guys but i am actually totally aware about it! :) i just want to know the list of brands and speakers that you guys can recommend so i can check them out! Affordability and sound! I just checked the Electro voice EVF series by the way, pretty sick but same as jbl ae series... i cant find reviews about it
Title: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 26, 2013, 10:51:20 am
Thanks for the quick guide and infos guys but i am actually totally aware about it! :) i just want to know the list of brands and speakers that you guys can recommend so i can check them out! Affordability and sound! I just checked the Electro voice EVF series by the way, pretty sick but same as jbl ae series... i cant find reviews about it
There are all sorts of different brands and different cabinet designs.

If we were to all list the various ones that have worked for particular installs over the years-it would be quite a list indeed.

Install is NOT a one size fits all type of thing.  Each particular case needs a different solution.

You could 2 identical sized rooms yet need a number of different products would be "right" for the particular customer.  How loud do they need it?  How much money are they willing to spend.

Yet the coverage requirements would remain the same.
Title: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Brad Weber on May 27, 2013, 01:36:45 pm
If you just want to stick a particular speaker in a room because somebody "recommended it", then go ahead-but just be ready to defend the choice to the people that are paying for it.
I was involved in a university perfoming arts project where we had to go before a committee to get funding approved.  We knew we had a challenge as the internal AV group really wanted the budget for themselves so they could then treat the music performance spaces like a classroom and spend the rest elsewhere.  There was a lot of other information presented but as part of the presentation we showed the EASE models we has used to look at various system options and how we arrived at the particular approach and products proposed.  The head of the finance committee turned to the internal AV representative and asked them why they never saw supporting information like that from them.  Not only did they approve the full funding, but a bit later they limited the internal AV group to supporting classrooms and not being involved in the campus special function venues.
Title: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Costa Lakoumentas on May 27, 2013, 01:55:06 pm
There are all sorts of different brands and different cabinet designs.

If we were to all list the various ones that have worked for particular installs over the years-it would be quite a list indeed.

Install is NOT a one size fits all type of thing.  Each particular case needs a different solution.

You could 2 identical sized rooms yet need a number of different products would be "right" for the particular customer.  How loud do they need it?  How much money are they willing to spend.

Yet the coverage requirements would remain the same.

I couldn't agree more. The right system for worship often has less to do with the product than the design. In fact this rule applies across the whole spectrum of sound systems whether they be for reinforcement or playback.

Consider that in every acoustic space you have a limited number of variables, all of which will impact the quality of sound delivered to the listener. The venue itself will determine the reverberation, total room volume, distance to the listener and ambient noise levels. Any loudspeaker must work within these fixed parameters to deliver the kind of performance that is deemed acceptable.

The system designer can then select loudspeakers that best match the intended application while working within the constraints of the physical space. The system design best suited to the space may well be a point source, which will demand one type of speaker. Or, it may be a distributed system with a L/R localization pair, in which case another type of speaker would be in order.

Unfortunately what we see rather often is that one brand or model that was used successfully in one installation becomes through word of mouth the go-to solution for other applications. Sometimes it works out just right, while at other times it's either overkill or falls woefully short of expectations. The best advice is to seek out help from someone who knows how to design a system properly and forget about specific models or brands until you have a better understanding of what it will take to meet the technical need.

Best regards,

Costa
Title: Posting Rules
Post by: Mac Kerr on May 27, 2013, 02:01:09 pm
I couldn't agree more.

Please go to your profile and change the "Name" field to your real first and last name as required by the posting rules displayed in the header at the top of the section, and in the Site Rules and Suggestions (http://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Forum Announcements section, and on the registration page when you registered.

Mac
Title: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: TJ (Tom) Cornish on May 28, 2013, 07:36:50 am
Thanks for the quick guide and infos guys but i am actually totally aware about it! :) i just want to know the list of brands and speakers that you guys can recommend so i can check them out! Affordability and sound! I just checked the Electro voice EVF series by the way, pretty sick but same as jbl ae series... i cant find reviews about it
I don't think you were listening.
Title: Re: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Caleb Dueck on May 28, 2013, 12:00:45 pm
The right system for worship often has less to do with the product than the design. In fact this rule applies across the whole spectrum of sound systems whether they be for reinforcement or playback.

+100

If there could be a universal, authoritative list of qualified AV companies that focus on House of Worship - questions of "is xyz item good for my application?" could be answered by a link to the list. 

In our experience (House of Worship design/build), clients that come to us asking for _______ brand find out what they really are looking for is a performance/capabilities level.  Often the best solution isn't what they asked about.
Title: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Chris Penny on May 28, 2013, 08:46:25 pm
To me this is all about selecting the right tool for the job.

The issue here is we aren't too sure what the job is, so we can't recommend a tool for it.

For example, there is no point in recommending a hammer when what you actually need is a screwdriver.
Title: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Ivan Beaver on May 29, 2013, 07:34:20 am
To me this is all about selecting the right tool for the job.

The issue here is we aren't too sure what the job is, so we can't recommend a tool for it.

For example, there is no point in recommending a hammer when what you actually need is a screwdriver.
EXACTLY!  FIRST you HAVE to define what is needed-THEN and ONLY THEN can you START to look for the right tool.

Although I have seen a hammer used as a screwdriver-just pound those screws in-MUCH faster than with a screwdriver. I had an old boss that used to put the screws in the back of guitar cabinets this way.

 YES it "kinda" works-but you ruin the threads and it is not as strong-but it "gets it out the door" faster.

But of course the right tool would have provided better results-with a little bit more effort.
Title: Re: Re: What House of Praise speakers do you recommend?
Post by: Brad Weber on May 31, 2013, 09:13:48 am
In our experience (House of Worship design/build), clients that come to us asking for _______ brand find out what they really are looking for is a performance/capabilities level.  Often the best solution isn't what they asked about.
Yep, it is very common for people to think of an audio system in terms of the physical components but when it comes time to assess the results and pay for the system that assessment is almost always based on functionality and performance.  It's common at the end of a system install to hear "it doesn't do this thing we wanted" or "it doesn't sound right" but for it to have been the gear rather than those goals that were defined upfront.
 
At least in my experience, one reason many firms avoid the house of worship market is just such issues, some churches do a very poor job of defining their goals and expectations up front and then acceptance of and payment for the system gets messy due to goals and expectations that are only then identified.  People tend to think of audio systems in terms of the stuff rather than what it does or allows you to do, at least until the stuff is there and doesn't do those things.