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Title: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 06, 2017, 04:08:13 am
In the summer I do a weekly rooftop day party, 3pm to 9pm. All DJ, all current hip hop. To say the venue gets packed would be an understatement. This, plus the physical layout dictates a less than optimal setup, with speakers basically at opposite ends of a long narrow rectangular area. The venue provides a QSC system with 2 K12s on speaker stands for tops and 2 KW181s for subs. I supplement their system with another KW181 that I have access to, so it's a pretty well matched and balanced system. Yes a fourth KW181 would be ideal but that's beyond the scope of this post.

The promoter has expressed his disappointment in the volume we are able to get out of this system. I have a feeling it's actually just the tops that are holding it back, as the sub level is pretty thick and consistent throughout the space. I'm thinking of upgrading just the tops for this coming season, and as I already have JBL SRX712s powered by QSC PL380 and DR260 processing, that would be the most cost effective solution. I would of course need to charge extra for bringing my own equipment, so I want to ensure that the difference between the current K12s and my SRXs is very noticeable and sufficient to justify this.

My other option would be to go with a set of Yamaha DSR112s, based on the feedback I've gotten from this forum. However that would require a purchase, and as I currently have no other use for a pair of DSR112s, as nice as they are, I'd prefer to stick with equipment I already own.

So let's say for argument's sake that the K12 is a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, and the new JBL SRX812p is a 10. Where would we put the SRX712 and the DSR112 in between those two?

Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Stephen Kirby on January 06, 2017, 04:18:24 am
The 712s will eat the K12s for breakfast, lunch and dinner.  3" HF driver vs. 1.75".  Neither the 712s or DSRs will make a bunch of mid bass if the music needs it.  But both will go much louder cleanly as tops.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 06, 2017, 04:25:53 am
Here's a video showing the layout of the venue. You can see one of the speaker positions at 1:14, and the other speaker position is at the opposite end. A second later is a good top view of the venue so you can see about how large the area is.

https://youtu.be/3m1FE-9SZvs?t=72
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Mike Monte on January 06, 2017, 07:24:10 am
In the summer I do a weekly rooftop day party, 3pm to 9pm. All DJ, all current hip hop. To say the venue gets packed would be an understatement. This, plus the physical layout dictates a less than optimal setup, with speakers basically at opposite ends of a long narrow rectangular area. The venue provides a QSC system with 2 K12s on speaker stands for tops and 2 KW181s for subs. I supplement their system with another KW181 that I have access to, so it's a pretty well matched and balanced system. Yes a fourth KW181 would be ideal but that's beyond the scope of this post.

The promoter has expressed his disappointment in the volume we are able to get out of this system. I have a feeling it's actually just the tops that are holding it back, as the sub level is pretty thick and consistent throughout the space. I'm thinking of upgrading just the tops for this coming season, and as I already have JBL SRX712s powered by QSC PL380 and DR260 processing, that would be the most cost effective solution. I would of course need to charge extra for bringing my own equipment, so I want to ensure that the difference between the current K12s and my SRXs is very noticeable and sufficient to justify this.

My other option would be to go with a set of Yamaha DSR112s, based on the feedback I've gotten from this forum. However that would require a purchase, and as I currently have no other use for a pair of DSR112s, as nice as they are, I'd prefer to stick with equipment I already own.

So let's say for argument's sake that the K12 is a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, and the new JBL SRX812p is a 10. Where would we put the SRX712 and the DSR112 in between those two?

My thoughts: If you are going to make an upgrade to the rig it better be significant to the promoter's ears and eyes.  You may be able to find speakers that sound better and are the approximate same size, weight as the K12's (41lbs, etc.) but the truth of the matter is that if the promoter sees another same-approximate-size cabinet (no matter how much better it sounds) he will not "see" it as an upgrade.

41lb. k12 speakers on sticks in a crowded space creates liability concerns.  Larger speakers will increase the risks... (a pair of my yorkville tx4's would fit the bill nicely...but at 80lbs each....?).
You state that you will provide the upgrade, not the venue...which is fine, but now "you" will become liable if a speaker topples and someone gets hurt.

My post is not much help but may give you food for thought.

All in all it looks like a sweet gig though! 




     
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 06, 2017, 11:37:34 am
Mike thanks for insight on how important looks are, and the additional considerations. You're right, there's some liability issues, and I'll need make sure I can get the venue to sign off on a liability waiver, as the speaker-on-a-stick setup would be no different with any of the cabinets.

I've gone to considerable lengths to position everything in such a way as to avoid having our rather spirited guests cause harm to the equipment or themselves. One side of the speakers is set up in a sort of pen, completely enclosed by stairway railings and a crowd control barrier, see the attached pic. The speaker stand you see on the far end has since been barricaded by re-positioning one of those huge heavy planters, tucking the stand in behind it, and placing the third sub in front. There's also a super sturdy projector mounting stand that I place on the far side of that stand (in the picture there's a led par on it), so it's pretty well protected on all 3 sides.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 06, 2017, 01:03:26 pm
Here's a better picture of the far speaker location. It's tucked in behind that planter about as well as it can be. Speaker stands are Ultimate Support TS80Bs and they are still in excellent condition after two seasons. I do have to check for loose bolts every week.

Quote
My thoughts: If you are going to make an upgrade to the rig it better be significant to the promoter's ears and eyes.  You may be able to find speakers that sound better and are the approximate same size, weight as the K12's (41lbs, etc.) but the truth of the matter is that if the promoter sees another same-approximate-size cabinet (no matter how much better it sounds) he will not "see" it as an upgrade.

To me, if I can provide significantly better sound at the same size and weight that's a win. The SRX712s are rather unassuming in the looks department, so I'm going to check with the promoter to clarify exactly what his expectations are.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Dave Garoutte on January 06, 2017, 05:08:30 pm
If you have the safety factor, pick up the speakers another 5 feet and tip them down.
More even coverage and all the energy will hit the crowd.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Mike Monte on January 06, 2017, 06:25:21 pm
Mike thanks for insight on how important looks are, and the additional considerations. You're right, there's some liability issues, and I'll need make sure I can get the venue to sign off on a liability waiver, as the speaker-on-a-stick setup would be no different with any of the cabinets.

I've gone to considerable lengths to position everything in such a way as to avoid having our rather spirited guests cause harm to the equipment or themselves. One side of the speakers is set up in a sort of pen, completely enclosed by stairway railings and a crowd control barrier, see the attached pic. The speaker stand you see on the far end has since been barricaded by re-positioning one of those huge heavy planters, tucking the stand in behind it, and placing the third sub in front. There's also a super sturdy projector mounting stand that I place on the far side of that stand (in the picture there's a led par on it), so it's pretty well protected on all 3 sides.

The sub/speaker within the railing wrap is well-protected...unless a yahoo decides to hop up on the sub and dance....  A skirt on the speaker pole (standard DJ wedding technique) would discourage this...





Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Ivan Beaver on January 06, 2017, 06:44:52 pm
The 712s will eat the K12s for breakfast, lunch and dinner.  3" HF driver vs. 1.75". 
You cannot simply take the size the HF diaphragm as meaning it is much louder.

You MUST also consider at what freq you are talking about.

While it is "basically true" that a larger diaphragm will be "louder", the freq at which they are louder must often be "thrown away with eq.

This will be at the lower end of the HF response.

HOWEVER at the higher freq, often the smaller diaphragm will be LOUDER than the larger diaphragm.

This is due to several factors.  One is the simple weight of the larger diaphragm.

Another is the self inductance of the voice coil of the larger coil.

Basically it acts as its own low pass filter-because the inductance is larger.

Of course there are many factors that can make one driver louder or quieter than another.

Generally the larger diaphragms are better for lower freq, while smaller diaphragms are better for higher freq.

There are a lot of "it depends" involved here.

It could be that you are correct in saying that one cabinet "will eat" the other, but there is more to it than just the HF diaphragms size.  That is just 1 of many factors that determine SPL output and quality.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Michael Thompson on January 07, 2017, 04:33:24 am
You cannot simply take the size the HF diaphragm as meaning it is much louder.

You MUST also consider at what freq you are talking about.

While it is "basically true" that a larger diaphragm will be "louder", the freq at which they are louder must often be "thrown away with eq.

This will be at the lower end of the HF response.

HOWEVER at the higher freq, often the smaller diaphragm will be LOUDER than the larger diaphragm.

This is due to several factors.  One is the simple weight of the larger diaphragm.

Another is the self inductance of the voice coil of the larger coil.

Basically it acts as its own low pass filter-because the inductance is larger.

Of course there are many factors that can make one driver louder or quieter than another.

Generally the larger diaphragms are better for lower freq, while smaller diaphragms are better for higher freq.

There are a lot of "it depends" involved here.

It could be that you are correct in saying that one cabinet "will eat" the other, but there is more to it than just the HF diaphragms size.  That is just 1 of many factors that determine SPL output and quality.

While I would consider a 712m or DSR112 to be an upgrade over the K12's, I highly doubt either will offer the increase in level that the club owner is looking for.  It seems more like you just need more rig for the gig, be it more cabs distributed or louder cabs at a select area, going from one mid-priced 12" 2way to another probably isn't going to get you the desired result IMHO.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 07, 2017, 08:50:54 am
Quote
If you have the safety factor, pick up the speakers another 5 feet and tip them down.
More even coverage and all the energy will hit the crowd.

I keep the bottoms of the cabinets about 5.5' high, which is probably a bit on the conservative side. I think I can get another foot of height out of the stands. I'll try that and the tilt down orientation. The TS88B would get me just over 9'. Anything more than that and I'd need a Global Truss ST132 or similar, which just seems like overkill.

Quote
The sub/speaker within the railing wrap is well-protected...unless a yahoo decides to hop up on the sub and dance....

The biggest issue is keeping drinks off the stacked subs as they make a nice table for anyone standing nearby. Next biggest issue was girls that wanted to dry hump them, solved by putting stanchions in front. I haven't yet had anyone trying to climb up onto them but anything can happen.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Mike Monte on January 07, 2017, 09:12:53 am
I keep the bottoms of the cabinets about 5.5' high, which is probably a bit on the conservative side. I think I can get another foot of height out of the stands. I'll try that and the tilt down orientation. The TS88B would get me just over 9'. Anything more than that and I'd need a Global Truss ST132 or similar, which just seems like overkill.

The biggest issue is keeping drinks off the stacked subs as they make a nice table for anyone standing nearby. Next biggest issue was girls that wanted to dry hump them, solved by putting stanchions in front. I haven't yet had anyone trying to climb up onto them but anything can happen.

"I haven't yet had anyone trying to climb up onto them but anything can happen."  It's only a matter of time before it does....  Sometimes you have to "out-punt" a punter.   A yahoo (punter) would probably think that dancing on a speaker would make a great selfie....

I have seen (on other forums) other DJ's make a cover (out of plywood, painted, etc.) that sits on the sub (with a hole for the speaker pole) that creates a sloped surface that drinks cannot sit on.

Best to be proactive.


 
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Bill Hornibrook on January 07, 2017, 03:40:31 pm
To me, if I can provide significantly better sound at the same size and weight that's a win. The SRX712s are rather unassuming in the looks department, so I'm going to check with the promoter to clarify exactly what his expectations are.

Speaking as a club DJ who plays a lot of today's music, I think bringing your SRX tops will definitely be noticed. I've DJed on K12s, and they do not appreciate being pushed. I haven't DJed on SRX-712s but have on 715s and they thrived on it - never losing their composure at high SPLs.

I'd like to see four K181s. I think your 712s will outrun just three.

Regarding patrons on subs, the club I'm currently employed in has large laminated signs on the tops of each sub saying "Do not stand or place drinks on Subs!" That's the first line of defense, and actually does a pretty good job. For those who ignore the signs, security catches them. There's four in the room, and the primary job of one is to monitor the dance area.

Ladies twerking on subs is allowed as long as they don't climb on them. I wouldn't want to lose that. It makes my night go by much faster :D

Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Dave Garoutte on January 07, 2017, 09:48:19 pm
I've had people put their drinks on the no drinks sign.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Bill Hornibrook on January 07, 2017, 10:12:40 pm
^ That's why they're laminated lol. They're not foolproof (and I mean that literally) but they do stop quite a bit of that kind of stuff.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Jay Marr on January 08, 2017, 12:51:47 pm
I've had people put their drinks on the no drinks sign.

Me too.

That's when I accidentally kick them off....
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Rob Spence on January 08, 2017, 01:49:29 pm
Speaking as a club DJ who plays a lot of today's music, I think bringing your SRX tops will definitely be noticed. I've DJed on K12s, and they do not appreciate being pushed. I haven't DJed on SRX-712s but have on 715s and they thrived on it - never losing their composure at high SPLs.

I'd like to see four K181s. I think your 712s will outrun just three.

Regarding patrons on subs, the club I'm currently employed in has large laminated signs on the tops of each sub saying "Do not stand or place drinks on Subs!" That's the first line of defense, and actually does a pretty good job. For those who ignore the signs, security catches them. There's four in the room, and the primary job of one is to monitor the dance area.

Ladies twerking on subs is allowed as long as they don't climb on them. I wouldn't want to lose that. It makes my night go by much faster :D
I agree on 4 of the subs. Btw, make sure all the polarity switches are in the same position. I once didn't and they cancelled pretty good.

Higher and aimed down. ST132s are much more stable, sturdy and go higher. That makes for better sound and more safety. More safety isn't overkill.

Make slant tops for the subs. Solves the drinks and climbing.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 08, 2017, 02:21:35 pm
Me too.

That's when I accidentally kick them off....

I was working a show in a club Wildwood, NJ where the customers would use any kind of flat surface as a place for their drinks (mostly a stand-up venue).  I tipped the wait staff to remove them from my mixer (covered, with a NO DRINKS sign on it) for a couple days, then they refused my money.  It seems they did well from selling replacement drinks and if a customer objected to its removal they just pointed to the sign.

I will try to explain this in simple terms:  The *public* doesn't give a fuck about your precious subwoofers, PA speakers, monitor wedges, amp racks, mics or consoles.  It's just furniture or props provided for their good time.  How dare you challenge their full and unfettered enjoyment of your stuff!  The effect is multiplied after a couple of alcoholic beverages.

All of the talk about making stuff drunk-safe is either spot on or wasted effort, depending on how you look at it and where your live/work.  Here in Kansas, a drunk person swinging from the PA and having the speakers land only on the drunk would likely result in a small, if any settlement - provided you meet the "reasonable person" test regarding your efforts to keep your rig from falling over.  In other jurisdictions you or your insurer might be paying out big time $$ because some drunk asshole hurt himself in spite of your best efforts.  You *can* significantly reduce the attraction of idiots to your system but chances are most of the effective deterrents are ugly, expensive or offensive and therefor not acceptable to your venue or client.

The pubic are clueless, unobservant and generally stupid.  Public drunk or on stimulants are even worse.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Richard Penrose on January 08, 2017, 03:28:06 pm
I have a foam acoustic tiles with spiked pyramids on top of my subs with a "No food or drinks" sign on top and I've STILL had two ocassions where a drunk person tried to balance a drink on top of the spikes unsuccessfully!! The first time this happened the drink fell down the back of the sub into the mains board behind them which resulted in a blackout onstage! However, generally this has significantly reduced people putting drinks on the subs!
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 08, 2017, 03:33:39 pm
Yes a fourth KW181 would be ideal but that's beyond the scope of this post.

I'd like to see four K181s. I think your 712s will outrun just three.

I agree on 4 of the subs.

Well it seems like we can all agree that 4 subs would be best.  :)

Come to think of it, this season I will have access to one more KW181, but it would be a bit of a hassle to get to each week. Remember, so far I haven't been getting paid to supply equipment. Maybe I can use the third sub I've been bringing, this newly available fourth, and my SRXs to complete a more compelling upgrade package deal.

When I took over the job, the previous tech was renting the event his two KW181s, which the venue ended up buying from him. When he was going over the setup with me, he recommended that I use both of them and 2 K12s to make the promoter happy, even though in his opinion it was "way overkill". I guess people have different ideas of how much is enough.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 08, 2017, 03:58:25 pm
Btw, make sure all the polarity switches are in the same position.

I run them all normal polarity, normal mode, gains at 3:00 so about +5. K12s are in external sub mode, with gains at 12:00. To my senses this provides a good balance for our bass heavy hip hop. With these gain settings the tops will hit the limiters before the subs will, so I've got a bit of headroom left in the subs if/when I start using the SRX tops. I'm hoping to get several more dB out of the system with what I can offer, compared to what the venue supplies.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Lyle Williams on January 09, 2017, 04:12:03 am
Looking at the photo, with tops at close to head height, you'll be killing the bar staff while the people near the camera still want you to turn it up.  :-)
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 09, 2017, 04:50:29 am
Looking at the photo, with tops at close to head height, you'll be killing the bar staff while the people near the camera still want you to turn it up.  :-)

Yeah that second picture actually isn't so good, you can't tell the position of the speaker relative to the bar.  It's actually a good 6 to 8 feet out from the bar front, plenty enough for servicing the customers. Let's never forget how we are getting paid.  :)

It actually works out quite well, with the near and far speakers basically pointed inwards at opposite ends of the long narrow space. The bar doesn't get blasted from that speaker so they can hear the drink orders and each other. The near speakers are almost directly under the DJ setup on the balcony, so the DJs can feel the bass along with the monitor right beside them.  And the levels are reasonably consistent from end to end, falling off the most at the bar.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Jim McKeveny on January 09, 2017, 08:06:12 am

Roughly speaking, +3db of output = +3db of co$t. Has promoter factored in that calculus?
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 09, 2017, 11:17:51 am
Roughly speaking, +3db of output = +3db of co$t. Has promoter factored in that calculus?

^^^ THIS ^^^

Particularly since this is likely to end up requiring new equipment purchases in order to make the promoter happy.

After looking at the pics, though, I wonder if more SPL is really appropriate, rather than a redistribution of the SPL.  This looks like a meat market hookup gig.  The people there will need to be able to communicate verbally ("Your place or mine" doesn't translate well to texting).  The promoter may desire *more* but the customers may not.  That's not Paul's problem (in theory) but you can be sure that when attendance falls off he will get the blame if there is even a single SPL complaint.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Rob Spence on January 09, 2017, 11:22:07 am
I run them all normal polarity, normal mode, gains at 3:00 so about +5. K12s are in external sub mode, with gains at 12:00. To my senses this provides a good balance for our bass heavy hip hop. With these gain settings the tops will hit the limiters before the subs will, so I've got a bit of headroom left in the subs if/when I start using the SRX tops. I'm hoping to get several more dB out of the system with what I can offer, compared to what the venue supplies.

I mentioned it because in moving and placing the subs, one switch got moved.

Several dB needs to be more than 3 to even notice. More than 6 should have an effect. Look at the spec sheets to see if what you propose will achieve your goal.
K12s are ok but not great. At high levels they don't sound so good.
Much of what people feel in dance music is in the low mids (above subs and below the hf driver). A 15" or dual 12" cab may bring more happiness.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Jim McKeveny on January 09, 2017, 12:19:09 pm
There are always substantial conflicts:

"What is needed?" = "How cheap can we get away with?" Zero reputation-building here, and lots of gear abuse potential. Promoter pushes all responsibility back on vendor. Use prophylactics.

"Work with me" = "Share all of my (?) risk", "Cash Flow Problem", or both.

"Do what is ideal" = "Open Checkbook". Unicorn client.

I know I sound cynical, but I am above ground, cash-positive, and have a coterie of satisfied cohorts.





Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Lance Hallmark on January 09, 2017, 01:29:59 pm
I agree to what most have written:
Get speakers higher.
DSR112s will sound better, especially at high volume, than the QSCs but will not make a noticeable increase in overall SPL, that would take bigger cabinets like EV QRX212 or higher output boxes like Danley SM80s or JTR Noesis.
I would say 4 subs minimum for the type of party and number of patrons. Higher output subs would be optimal but the QSCs should suffice. More is always better for DJ music  :P
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 09, 2017, 01:35:56 pm
Roughly speaking, +3db of output = +3db of co$t. Has promoter factored in that calculus?

That's why I'm trying to prepare them for. If I can bring 2 more subs, and a pair of tops that, while not the best for the job, will get them another clean 4 to 6 dB over the K12s, I think that would justify them paying enough to make it worth my extra time and effort. I guess I'll just have to try it and see how it goes. At least it won't require any purchases.

Particularly since this is likely to end up requiring new equipment purchases in order to make the promoter happy.

A 15" or dual 12" cab may bring more happiness.

Tim and Rob that's exactly what I'm thinking. So if they're still not happy with the system with what I can provide at minimal cost to them, then I will have to suggest an upgrade more along these lines.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Bill Hornibrook on January 09, 2017, 06:40:20 pm
As a general rule as a DJ I prefer tops with 15"s over 12"s. But I don't know if I'd go out and buy a pair just for this gig. Try going with what you've got first Paul... like your 712s.

Between 2010 and 2015 I had a gig very similar to this - though not nearly as upscale. It was for a young adult club that made their back lot into an outside venue during the summer.

The setup was different though. The owner only hired DJs with sound systems,  and left it up to the DJs as to what to bring for a set price. There were a couple who thought they could get by with no subs. They lasted one night.

Ultimately the gig fell to three of us, with me doing most nights. I'd bring pretty much everything, but it was super easy to set up. I'd just back the van into the space, and up it would go.

Here's an old video from 2011. I was using four custom B&C 18" subs at the time. Looks like I hadn't starting tilting the tops downward yet. Once I started doing that, it helped intensify the sound in the dance space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz3q4GozhnQ

Warning: It the sight of women rubbing their privates on subs, or a woman lying on her back on subs spreading her legs while a man jumps her repulses you as professionals, please don't watch.

It's what the gig was, and I miss it. The old owner sold the club, and the new owner just didn't want to go through the legal hurdles required to run an outside venue after 10pm.




Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Steve Garris on January 09, 2017, 09:48:09 pm


Here's an old video from 2011. I was using four custom B&C 18" subs at the time. Looks like I hadn't starting tilting the tops downward yet. Once I started doing that, it helped intensify the sound in the dance space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz3q4GozhnQ



Ha! That looks like fun Bill. I prefer live bands but those DJ's really have the young, party market these days. Best of luck to ya man.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Bill Hornibrook on January 10, 2017, 12:56:16 am
Thanks Steve I'm still doing this practically every weekend - just not in this outdoor venue. Of course right now that back lot is buried under two feet of snow, but anyway...

I've read a couple of posts wondering why the owner would want things louder. I know that in my case initially it was to attract attention to the club. We were in a downtown area zoned commercial, and he wanted the sound heard out on the streets.

As time went on it started attracting attention of the wrong kind, and we had to be a little more reasonable. But for this age group, you really can't be too loud. In the 10 years I've been doing this, I don't think I've ever heard anyone under the age of 25 ask me to turn it down.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 10, 2017, 01:31:39 am
I've read a couple of posts wondering why the owner would want things louder.
...
But for this age group, you really can't be too loud. In the 10 years I've been doing this, I don't think I've ever heard anyone under the age of 25 ask me to turn it down.

Bill your experience matches up well with mine. It seems loud enough for the first few hours, then as it gets more crowded and the levels get pushed up, those K12s hit the limiters and that's it. It would be nice to have that headroom just for the last couple of hours, I think another clean 6 db or so would make all the difference.

One thing that helps is that I control the master volume through a Mackie 1202. This enables me to keep the DJs from running at max for the whole event. Only when it starts getting lit do I open it up. Sometimes I'll get a text from the promoter asking if there's any more, and it would be quite satisfying to text back, "Yes here you go, this is what that extra money gets us".
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Lance Hallmark on January 10, 2017, 11:17:24 am
Bill your experience matches up well with mine. It seems loud enough for the first few hours, then as it gets more crowded and the levels get pushed up, those K12s hit the limiters and that's it. It would be nice to have that headroom just for the last couple of hours, I think another clean 6 db or so would make all the difference.

One thing that helps is that I control the master volume through a Mackie 1202. This enables me to keep the DJs from running at max for the whole event. Only when it starts getting lit do I open it up. Sometimes I'll get a text from the promoter asking if there's any more, and it would be quite satisfying to text back, "Yes here you go, this is what that extra money gets us".

When playing prerecorded dance music it is most effective when the sound envelopes the patrons and they are feeling the bass (a lot of bass).  I just made changes at my regular gig (which I wanted to do a year ago) and added additional subs, higher quality tops, & lighting. The last three nights have doubled business at the back bar (where the higher volume music is now focused) and went from a partially full dance floor to full all the way to close. Bringing the sound from reasonably loud to louder but more balanced totally changes the vibe of the venue.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Steve Garris on January 10, 2017, 12:39:14 pm
Thanks Steve I'm still doing this practically every weekend - just not in this outdoor venue. Of course right now that back lot is buried under two feet of snow, but anyway...

I've read a couple of posts wondering why the owner would want things louder. I know that in my case initially it was to attract attention to the club. We were in a downtown area zoned commercial, and he wanted the sound heard out on the streets.

As time went on it started attracting attention of the wrong kind, and we had to be a little more reasonable. But for this age group, you really can't be too loud. In the 10 years I've been doing this, I don't think I've ever heard anyone under the age of 25 ask me to turn it down.

Nice, I wish I could not get told to turn it down LOL.

FWIW, If you want louder boxes then I would recommend you step beyond those mentioned and look at the JBL SRX-800 powered series. I run at a club with K12's, and I have a PRX system and those DSR boxes as well, but if I want maximum volume and still great sound, I go to my SRX boxes. I don't have this whole thread in memory so someone might have already mentioned this. Contact Mike Pyle on this forum for really great prices.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 10, 2017, 12:40:49 pm
When playing prerecorded dance music it is most effective when the sound envelopes the patrons and they are feeling the bass (a lot of bass).  I just made changes at my regular gig (which I wanted to do a year ago) and added additional subs, higher quality tops, & lighting. The last three nights have doubled business at the back bar (where the higher volume music is now focused) and went from a partially full dance floor to full all the way to close. Bringing the sound from reasonably loud to louder but more balanced totally changes the vibe of the venue.

I think this is the essence, if you will...

Paul's gig is late afternoon to early evening and appears to be more of a "social" than party or night club operation.  Vibe is better than raw SPL, I think, but in theory the promoter/owner knows his crowd and what will get more patrons or get them to stay longer.  If we do what we're asked and it screws up the customer base we can only hope the promoter remembers we did what was requested.

While I'm still capable of remembering such youthful exuberance, I recall thinking on a number of occasions that the music was too damn loud to try out my well-rehearsed pick up lines, but... I'd never let my buddies know I thought the music was too loud, either.

So long as someone is willing to pay for the service it's usually foolish to refuse their money.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Jonathan Betts on January 10, 2017, 12:57:28 pm
A properly setup SRX 712m can do just as much or more damage than a 812p.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 10, 2017, 01:15:48 pm
Paul's gig is late afternoon to early evening and appears to be more of a "social" than party or night club operation.  Vibe is better than raw SPL...

Yes it's not a nightclub per se, and I understand exactly what you mean with creating the vibe instead of the all out sonic assault. That's why I monitor the level throughout the event, and usually between 6 and 7 I'll gradually open it up.

... but in theory the promoter/owner knows his crowd and what will get more patrons or get them to stay longer.

I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way, but last season our event was so successful that we were often at capacity, and holding the line to get in. And instead of getting them to stay longer, during the last half hour or so we actually have the DJs start to mellow it out, to encourage people to start leaving. This way we don't dump 300 people into the street all at once, which helps prevent fights from breaking out.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 10, 2017, 01:19:23 pm
A properly setup SRX 712m can do just as much or more damage than a 812p.

Thank you Jonathan, that's what I specifically wanted to know!

And I really appreciate all the other insights and advice, so thanks to everyone.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Jonathan Betts on January 10, 2017, 01:25:16 pm
You have a QSC PL 380 correct? We power ours with Crown ITech 4000/6000's, so you should be good to go.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Paul Miller on January 10, 2017, 01:53:59 pm
You have a QSC PL 380 correct? We power ours with Crown ITech 4000/6000's, so you should be good to go.

I've got PL380s, 340s, and a 325. The current processor is a DriveRack 260. I could biamp the 712s, but as I don't usually try to wring every last drop out of them during their normal use as stage monitors, I just run them passive.
Title: Re: QSC K12 VS. JBL SRX712 OR Yamaha DSR112
Post by: Tim McCulloch on January 10, 2017, 02:04:18 pm
I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way, but last season our event was so successful that we were often at capacity, and holding the line to get in. And instead of getting them to stay longer, during the last half hour or so we actually have the DJs start to mellow it out, to encourage people to start leaving. This way we don't dump 300 people into the street all at once, which helps prevent fights from breaking out.

Enviable position, actually!