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Title: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Brian Jojade on March 18, 2021, 02:27:53 pm
I'm working with a customer that wants to spread some speakers along about a 3 block area, and wants to be able to wirelessly broadcast to the speakers. They have battery operated JBL EON one pros that they will be using.

I was thinking just using an IEM would work great, since the receiver would be battery operated, and I could just velcro it to the speaker, but wondering if any would have the ability to reliably broadcast about 3 blocks away.

Any experience?
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Brian Adams on March 18, 2021, 03:33:54 pm
I've done this, but I only had to go across the street, so it's not quite the same thing. If you have a directional antenna, you might be able to get about a block or so, but I doubt you'd get over 2. You could always set it up and test it, but unless the transmitter antenna and the receiver are elevated, people standing in between will reduce the range, making it hard to test effectively.

If you could put the transmit antenna in the middle, you might stand a better chance of making it work, depending on how directional it is. From the middle, you could also use 2 transmitters with directional antennas, on different frequencies, one going each way.

Let us know how it works out. I'll be curious.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Dave Garoutte on March 18, 2021, 03:46:57 pm
I've fed remote speakers 300 feet or so with senny e500g3.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Keith Broughton on March 18, 2021, 05:11:33 pm
I'm working with a customer that wants to spread some speakers along about a 3 block area, and wants to be able to wirelessly broadcast to the speakers. They have battery operated JBL EON one pros that they will be using.

I was thinking just using an IEM would work great, since the receiver would be battery operated, and I could just velcro it to the speaker, but wondering if any would have the ability to reliably broadcast about 3 blocks away.

Any experience?
How big are the blocks?
An actual measurement would be helpful and is it line of sight to the speakers?
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Kent Clasen on March 18, 2021, 05:56:21 pm
I'm working with a customer that wants to spread some speakers along about a 3 block area, and wants to be able to wirelessly broadcast to the speakers. They have battery operated JBL EON one pros that they will be using.

I was thinking just using an IEM would work great, since the receiver would be battery operated, and I could just velcro it to the speaker, but wondering if any would have the ability to reliably broadcast about 3 blocks away.

Any experience?

We have done this doing the same with directional antennas mounted high and receivers on top of tripod mounted speakers.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Mike Pyle on March 18, 2021, 09:06:29 pm
I use Sennheiser SK100G3  bodypack transmitters & EK100G3 bodypack receivers for wireless remotes. I don't know how much distance they would cover but you could use a set to relay from one speaker placement to the next. Sennheiser and others offer short cables that are prewired to use line level in & out.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Brian Bolly on March 19, 2021, 02:54:43 am
We have done this doing the same with directional antennas mounted high and receivers on top of tripod mounted speakers.

This.

@Brian:

I find the Shure IEM units are easier than Sennheiser because you can change the antenna on the pack, if you're going strictly with IEM units.   Shure has a guide on its application here. (https://service.shure.com/s/article/point-to-point-wireless-using-a-shure-psm-system?language=en_US)

If you have access to some older Shure UHF-R units and a Shure PSM900 P9T, there is a Point-To-Point mode (https://service.shure.com/s/article/point-to-point-wireless-with-uhf-r-receiver-and-p9t-transmitter?language=en_US) that can be deployed with this setup.  Again, directional antennae are recommended on both ends.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Caleb Dueck on March 19, 2021, 05:21:29 am
I'm working with a customer that wants to spread some speakers along about a 3 block area, and wants to be able to wirelessly broadcast to the speakers. They have battery operated JBL EON one pros that they will be using.

I was thinking just using an IEM would work great, since the receiver would be battery operated, and I could just velcro it to the speaker, but wondering if any would have the ability to reliably broadcast about 3 blocks away.

Any experience?

If you can test first, even just walking down the street with a Rx listening to music and the Tx antenna up high - that would help.  I'll let others with more experience with reflections off parallel buildings chime in. 

I've informally tested microphones like this in open areas (golf tournament) and gotten much longer range than expected.  How that translates to city streets - I don't know. 

Had something semi-related happen today.  I was listening to FM radio in my SUV, at a stop light, facing almost directly toward the antenna, a few miles away.  Reception was strong.  A semi truck came to a slow stop behind me, and my reception dropped drastically.  I inched ahead a few feet, and the signal came back strong. 

The other issue is time delay.  If the speakers have coverage overlap - it's going to sound phasey, especially if there is supposed to be a 'time 0' somewhere. 
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Mike Caldwell on March 19, 2021, 09:08:47 am
Sennhesier IEM work well for audio links and Sennheiser wireless mic receivers will link to the IEM transmitters so you can use external antennas at both ends.
With LPDA antennas at both ends and a clear line of site 600 feet is do able.
I've used the body pack receivers setting in the top handle pocket of my powered
speakers for small delay fills at 200 feet with no issues.

Actually I'm working on a very similar project for a city to extended their downtown music
and just tested my Sennheiser system to 450 feet where the amp would be located.
This would be a permanent install system so I'm going to need some weather proof antennas.
I'm also looking at audio over IP solutions.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Dave Garoutte on March 19, 2021, 12:32:56 pm
Sennhesier IEM work well for audio links and Sennheiser wireless mic receivers will link to the IEM receivers so can use external antennas at both ends.
With LPDA antennas at both ends and a clear line of site 600 feet is do able.


The OP said he wants battery powered, like his speakers.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Russell Ault on March 19, 2021, 02:57:26 pm
The OP said he wants battery powered, like his speakers.

The Senny RXs are 12V; car battery? :D

-Russ
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Dave Garoutte on March 19, 2021, 04:24:24 pm
The Senny RXs are 12V; car battery? :D

-Russ
Oops, read it wrong.  I have sent IEM Tx to Wireless mic Rx in a powered situation, and thought that's what I read.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Brian Jojade on March 21, 2021, 07:00:02 pm
How big are the blocks?
An actual measurement would be helpful and is it line of sight to the speakers?

Rough total distance for the line is about 1500 feet.  Longest distance from transmission point would be just under 1000 feet.

The 'previous' solution that was used for music along the street was in ground 'rock' speakers in planters.  It worked, but road reconstruction has broken that solution. They don't have the ability to re-cable that, so now we're trying to come up with a wireless solution.

Battery operated isn't 100% required for this setup, but for flexibility, and being able to use the system for other possible events, battery operation would be super convenient.

Some latency isn't that big of a deal, since the speakers are going to be at relatively low volume and spread far enough apart.  Think more background music than focused rock concert levels.  We're actually looking now at an IP based solution that would let us either run over a WIFI network or even over the internet to get the job done.

This is one of those case scenarios where it would be REALLY awesome if the FCC would make a couple of frequencies available in the FM band that could be licensed for temporary use.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Riley Casey on March 21, 2021, 07:27:57 pm
Can you relocate your source location to reduce the maximum transmission range?

Rough total distance for the line is about 1500 feet.  Longest distance from transmission point would be just under 1000 feet.

...
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Brian Jojade on March 21, 2021, 10:20:41 pm
Can you relocate your source location to reduce the maximum transmission range?

Not effectively.  All of the possible options are still looking at a 1000 foot max transmission.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Mike Caldwell on March 21, 2021, 10:36:27 pm
I have made 1000 foot plus audio hops with a Sennheiser IEM transmitter and a Sennheiser wireless mic receivers. LPDA's at both ends about 12 feet in the air.
That was over open ground not down a city street though.

Here is the IP audio solution I'm looking at for the project I mentioned earlier.

https://www.barix.com/product-categories/audio-encoding/instreamer/ (https://www.barix.com/product-categories/audio-encoding/instreamer/)

https://www.barix.com/devices/exstreamer/exstreamer-100-105-110-120/ (https://www.barix.com/devices/exstreamer/exstreamer-100-105-110-120/)
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on March 22, 2021, 04:56:39 am
Do you have solid mobile phone coverage there?
Sounds like a job for some cheap smartphones running a teams/zoom-meeting.
Share audio to all participants from a computer at foh.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: MattLeonard on March 29, 2021, 11:24:49 pm
I do this sort of thing often at a more budget level - using the Alto Stealth Pro kit (yeah, I know it's Alto - but I have had zero issues with it).  It claims 200' line of sight range, which reflects my success in unobstructed environments.

The packs all run on a 12v wall wart - but I bought a simple 12v-to-5v USB cable, and then use common USB battery backs (for charging a phone) taped to the receivers. With battery-powered speakers, I've now got a fully wireless setup that can span 400' down a block.

When I need more than battery-powered speakers, I have various 12v battery/1500 watt inverter rigs that easily run a pair (or more) of delays all day long.




I'm working with a customer that wants to spread some speakers along about a 3 block area, and wants to be able to wirelessly broadcast to the speakers. They have battery operated JBL EON one pros that they will be using.

I was thinking just using an IEM would work great, since the receiver would be battery operated, and I could just velcro it to the speaker, but wondering if any would have the ability to reliably broadcast about 3 blocks away.

Any experience?
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Dan Patterson on March 30, 2021, 10:38:56 am
Hell-o All; I have worked on several of these projects with various degrees of success. The spread of main street America program is one of the drivers of this movement. My best success was using the now discontinued Neutrik Xirium pro. At that time (pre pandemic) Neutrik worked with me to map a downtown area and place the transmission antenna and receivers. we shot to powered speakers using custom undercover covers . the transmitters and receivers were I.P. rated. the biggest challenge was downtown commercial traffic (13'6"). If the receivers weren't above that they would drop signal for a moment as truck traffic flowed thru.  As this network cant be expanded this city is transitioning to a 70v system.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Brad Harris on March 30, 2021, 02:39:22 pm
What about a 1-5w FM transmitter?

We do this for city marathons where the coverage is quite large (ie, city communities)

Brad
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Henry Cohen on March 30, 2021, 03:52:10 pm
What about a 1-5w FM transmitter?

Not legal.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Tim McCulloch on March 30, 2021, 07:50:06 pm
What about a 1-5w FM transmitter?

We do this for city marathons where the coverage is quite large (ie, city communities)

Brad

Not legally in the USA... YMMV in Canada or elsewhere.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Jason Glass on March 30, 2021, 10:18:20 pm
What about a 1-5w FM transmitter?

We do this for city marathons where the coverage is quite large (ie, city communities)

Brad

That is unacceptably illegal everywhere in the USA.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Brian Jojade on March 30, 2021, 11:42:00 pm
What about a 1-5w FM transmitter?

We do this for city marathons where the coverage is quite large (ie, city communities)

Brad

Yes, the initial outlay to make this happen certainly would fit into the budget.  However, the potential 6 figure fine that could come with it would cause a bit of financial strain.  I do wish the FCC would make temporary licenses available in markets to do this sort of thing, but I doubt that will ever happen.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Brad Harris on April 08, 2021, 02:38:25 pm
What about a 1-5w FM transmitter?

We do this for city marathons where the coverage is quite large (ie, city communities)

Brad

Up here it is (with permit/license), so that leads me to an OT question... What are you guys doing for "drive in" style events?


Brad
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Pete Erskine on April 08, 2021, 05:51:38 pm

I was thinking just using an IEM would work great, since the receiver would be battery operated, and I could just velcro it to the speaker, but wondering if any would have the ability to reliably broadcast about 3 blocks away.


Use Unity intercom over cellular connection. latency is very low and you can send up to 64 separate feeds to the various towers.  Each tower will need  a cell phone running on power.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Brian Jojade on April 09, 2021, 10:17:23 pm
Project update:

I picked up a few Axis C8033 devices. They are only a couple hundred each.  Aside from firmware being WAY out of date on them (one came with 1.9 and the other 1.8, with the current version being 10.x) after updating, configuration on a local network is dead simple.  Set up one as a 'leader' and the others show up and get connected.

Out of the box, it was set with an audio buffer that had 120ms delay.  I found in the advanced settings where I could drop that to 0, and now there's almost no perceptible latency at all.  Impressive!

Next step, to make things wireless, I attached them to a pair of Ubiquity isostations, which I've used in the past for wireless hops of about this length, and so far, everything is working as expected.

I should be able to stick them up on tripods for the event and call it a day.

But, then, here's where the fun comes in.  I was able to also configure them as SIP devices and tie them into my phone system.  Latency of the phone system is roughly 100ms, which is totally acceptable for this sort of distance.  Now, if I can find an internet connection, I can connect to the broadcast.  Very very cool little devices.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Russell Ault on April 09, 2021, 11:11:33 pm
{...} Now, if I can find an internet connection, I can connect to the broadcast. {...}

Cellular data?

-Russ
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Brian Jojade on April 19, 2021, 11:09:41 am
Cellular data?

-Russ

Yep, it works off cellular, or just pick up WIFI from a neighboring business.  Easy as can be.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Tim Burkhart on April 20, 2021, 09:06:08 am
I've done this sort of thing quite a bit. Lectrosonics makes the best equipment for this type of link that I have seen anywhere. It is quite bulletproof.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Doug Fowler on April 20, 2021, 04:10:04 pm
I've fed remote speakers 300 feet or so with senny e500g3.

I have done about 600 ft. line of sight with a helical and it was 5 by 5 at the receiver.  I'm pretty sure it could have gone quite a bit farther.
Title: Re: Long range in-ear monitor solution
Post by: Tim McCulloch on April 20, 2021, 04:50:59 pm
I have done about 600 ft. line of sight with a helical and it was 5 by 5 at the receiver.  I'm pretty sure it could have gone quite a bit farther.

We cheated and used a Lectro IFB transmitter and Lectro receiver, helical on the receive and LPDA on transmitter (or was it the other way around? It's been a few years)... about 1000 feet or so.  With clear line of sight I would not be surprised by 1500 or more.