Mark Steven Lewis wrote on Thu, 26 July 2007 19:54 |
In earlier discussion, it was generally agreed that the push pull driver configuration minimizes the 2nd order distortion, correct? If so, it doesn't seem very hard to apply this to the LAB horn. Does this make sense? |
Quote: |
If this works, is it worth the effort? Thanks for consultation. |
Josh Billings wrote on Mon, 30 July 2007 01:04 |
I've owned both and i would take the LABs any day. They are smaller, put out the same SPL (Honestly can't notice a difference) and they are cheaper to make. |
Josh Billings wrote on Tue, 17 July 2007 05:21 |
Maybe i'm doing something wrong but i've never experienced the LABs outperform a JBL Dual 18 (SRX). I know they are supposed to be able to...maybe only in groups of 4. I know that's supposed to be the magic number -Josh Billings |
Josh Billings wrote on Tue, 17 July 2007 05:21 |
Maybe i'm doing something wrong but i've never experienced the LABs outperform a JBL Dual 18 (SRX). I know they are supposed to be able to...maybe only in groups of 4. I know that's supposed to be the magic number -Josh Billings |
Ivan Beaver wrote on Tue, 31 July 2007 07:59 |
Now that we are back on the cooling plug issue-again- what happens on the outdoor shows in the summer with a hot sun shinning on the plates? Don't they get pretty hot just sitting there-therefore putting heat back INTO the driver with the driver acting as a heat sink for the cooling plug? Of course if they are protected from the sun by say another cabinet, then how well do they radiate the heat by not having accesss to open air, therefore reducing the effectivness. Were the tests done with the plugs covered up with another cabinet or laying on the ground, and not just standing out in free air? |
Ivan Beaver wrote on Tue, 31 July 2007 06:59 |
Now that we are back on the cooling plug issue-again- what happens on the outdoor shows in the summer with a hot sun shinning on the plates? Don't they get pretty hot just sitting there-therefore putting heat back INTO the driver with the driver acting as a heat sink for the cooling plug? Of course if they are protected from the sun by say another cabinet, then how well do they radiate the heat by not having accesss to open air, therefore reducing the effectivness. Were the tests done with the plugs covered up with another cabinet or laying on the ground, and not just standing out in free air? |
Ivan Beaver wrote on Tue, 31 July 2007 06:59 |
Now that we are back on the cooling plug issue-again- what happens on the outdoor shows in the summer with a hot sun shinning on the plates? |
Josh Billings wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 00:04 |
I'd really love to see some TH-115s & Original LAB Subwoofers against the 12pis actually -Josh |
Josh Billings wrote on Tue, 31 July 2007 18:04 |
I'd really love to see some TH-115s & Original LAB Subwoofers against the 12pis actually -Josh |
Tom Danley wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 09:53 (about the LABhorn) |
Your objection was in the initial design phase, I know at least one person found them entertaining and saved your posts, perhaps they will post them and refresh your memory. |
Tom Danley wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 09:53 (about past Prosound Shootouts) |
As a look at the archives (here) from last year would show, you were, at the time, unwilling to go into detail about what you were going to do, your replies to me were cryptic at best, you turned down an offer to have a TEF machine and operator because he is a friend of mine and it wasn’t clear if you were going to have much in the way of competitive products there. |
Tom Danley wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 09:53 |
You have to understand, this is a business, it costs money to ship speaker and equipment to “other peoples” shoot outs and there has to be a plausible business justification to go. |
Tom Danley wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 09:53 |
So, if your keen to have my stuff there, get someone with a TEF machine or something just as reliable and accurate, get some commercial subwoofers in addition to Jeff’s and the Basmaxx to test and compare to. Get some popular touring sound subwoofers. In other words, make it something that makes sense for us to do. |
Tom Danley wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 09:53 |
It would be logical to bring a couple SH-50’s to put above the subs too don’t you think? |
Tom Danley wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 09:53 |
The possible subs would be the TH-115, TH-215, TH-50, a new one and possibly even the Matterhorn in case you go for most/lowest bass from “one box”. |
Tom Danley wrote on Wed, 01 August 2007 09:53 |
I don’t know if it would be fair to compare the TH-115 to the Pi, it is half the size and weight, yet its measurements suggest it would still be ok. |
Todd Michael wrote on Thu, 16 August 2007 08:47 |
Wayne if I know you you will now reply with a response saying how this is not how it happened and it was taken out of context, and that I am saying this just because of the relationship I have with Tom. But in my opinion I think anyone that has followed this LAB project from the start up to now it is very clear that you did nothing but try and shoot holes in the design right from the word go. And now here we are years later and you have a product (which I am sure is very good) which is very similar. Yes you can argue the benefits of your push/pull design and heat sinking all you want but the foundation of your design is based on the LAB sub. |
Wayne Parham wrote on Thu, 16 August 2007 16:15 |
So what exactly is it that causes such a reaction from the Danley camp? Why is it that every time the cooling plug or 12Pi basshorn subwoofer comes up here that at least one of you that are associated with Tom Danley jumps on to try and squelch it? |
Wayne Parham wrote on Thu, 16 August 2007 16:15 |
It's like you didn't like the fact that my 12Pi had some good ideas, like you have a bad case of the "wasn't invented here" syndrome. |
Vince Byrne wrote on Thu, 16 August 2007 17:18 |
I have no reason to believe your cooling plug and 12Pi don't work as advertised, but they stand on the shoulders of the original LABsub work that Tom gifted to the DYI community and which you so soundly and rather rudely rejected. And now you profit from it too, and advertise it in the forums the LABsub was conceived in. Personally, I would be pissed. |
Wayne Parham wrote on Thu, 16 August 2007 18:29 |
Have you ever looked at the Renkus-Heinz CoEntrant horn and compared it with the Unity horn? They are virtually identical. |
Wayne Parham wrote on Thu, 16 August 2007 18:29 |
Or how about the old Jensen Transflex? Any similarity to the Tapped Horn? |
Wayne Parham wrote on Thu, 16 August 2007 18:29 |
The 12Pi is completely different than the LABhorn. It uses a different flare, different throat, different front and rear chambers and different driver configuration. It uses the same drivers, but the drivers in the 12Pi are modified. It uses a spiral fold, but so did my 1970's 10Pi, which was a 40Hz basshorn. |
Wayne Parham wrote on Thu, 16 August 2007 18:29 |
So why then would you credit my work as standing on the top of Tom's work, any more than any other work stands on the top of work done before it? |
Wayne Parham wrote on Thu, 16 August 2007 18:29 |
I "met" Tom Danley online in about 2001. Actually, my first encounter was with Mark Seaton. These guys were saying the Unity horn was better than any other horn, and attacking other designs. |
Wayne Parham wrote on Thu, 16 August 2007 18:29 |
Worse still, what I'm saying about the cooling plug and push-pull drive has great technical merit, yet they've done everything they could to squelch it. So please don't talk to me about rejecting concepts out of hand and publicly. |
Pascal Pincosy wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 00:02 |
Hey Vince, This has all been rehashed and re-rehashed to death. Over and over and over again. |
Todd Michael wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 07:42 |
What I "bashed" was you and your attitude towards the LAB sub from day one. It is well documented that you were not a fan of the design or the designer right from the word go. |
Todd Michael wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 07:42 |
And here you are now with a very similar design and you have never given any credit (that I have seen) to Tom for the work he has done. |
Todd Michael wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 07:42 |
I think you should go back and read the AA posts again about what you would build specifically for the LAB, NOT HOME HI-FI, we were not talking about home Hi-Fi applications and I made that very clear. |
Todd Michael wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 07:42 |
Your answer was a bunch of direct radiator cabinets loaded with JBL drivers. |
Todd Michael wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 07:42 |
You said that one of the biggest design targets was that it had to be portable and you thought bass horns like the LAB sub were too big to be portable, then you make the 12pi which is even bigger! |
Todd Michael wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 07:42 |
Next to Tom I'm pretty sure I have done more work with the Unity design than anyone else so I am very aware of its similarities to previous designs. |
Todd Michael wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 07:42 |
Like I said in my first post you can argue about your push/pull drivers and heat plugs all you want. I am very aware of their benefits and I did not discredit them or the work you have done designing them, again I think you are missing the point. |
John Roberts {JR} wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 09:15 |
I continue to be amazed at how much energy people spend trying to change the opinion and behavior of others. I haven't yet mastered changing my own. It is not surprising that people will have a personal perspective, perhaps colored by self interest. This is just being human. The past is past and can't be changed with any amount of hand wringing. Perhaps we can get back to talking about something new or different, and not rehashing the same old nonsense. |
Pascal Pincosy wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 13:04 |
And round and round the broken record goes. Now Wayne will retort with his views on why the cooling plug's testing was great. This is nothing new. We have heard it all for at least a year now. |
Ivan Beaver wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 12:10 |
It is not mine (nor Tom's) suggestion that the cooling plugs do not work. I sure they do help. |
Ivan Beaver wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 12:10 |
It is my thoughts that they do not add all the benefit that is claimed. |
Ivan Beaver wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 12:10 |
Yes I assume it is possible to achieve the results you have regarding the power handling increase that you have claimed. That is not to dispute. |
Ivan Beaver wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 12:10 |
What I have a problem with (as stated in earlier threads) is the test procedure used. You were using a continuous source and music is far from that. Music has a higher crest factor than you were using, so the tests were not representative of the real world conditions. SO the idea that now the driver can handle that much extra music power (and the peaks associated with it-those are the real danger) I feel is in error. |
Pascal Pincosy wrote on Fri, 17 August 2007 13:04 |
It's clear to me that these arguments have little to do with science and a lot to do with bruised egos on both sides. If you guys had all stuck to discussing the facts and the science, and left out the ad hominum in the first place, we wouldn't be here today. |
Tim McCulloch wrote on Thu, 23 August 2007 15:30 |
30 years ago *we* got our start the really old-fashioned way: at the library. It's the lack of preparation that probably chaps my ass more than any other single thing. Posting a few questions on internet forums is NOT research, studying, or preparation, although it might lead to that... |
Grant Rider wrote on Wed, 29 August 2007 10:32 |
Good suggestion. Check the air in your tires. |
Tom Danley wrote on Tue, 09 October 2007 23:49 |
I have sent speakers to shootouts before and think proper measurements and side by side comparisons vital in getting to reality. Personally Wayne and I seemed to exhibit a certain “friction” which goes way back and my daughter has surgery that weekend so I couldn’t go anyway. I was thinking of sending a new box but the first samples, while impressive sounding, were I felt too far short of the computer model. I (hope) figured out what wasn’t right and have a second set in the works. These boxes should in a stack of 4 have about 10dB of forward directivity gain in addition to sensitivity and a lower cutoff, but hey, they aren’t measured yet. |
Ivan Beaver wrote on Fri, 26 October 2007 06:21 |
The 2nd version of that model Tom was talking about works much better. It is 30Wx48Tx26 deep (smaller than a lab sub and easy to move and great truck pack). Output @30Hz with 2.83V input is over 102dB. Combine that with 2000watt RMS power and you have an idea that it will get VERY loud and low! |