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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => HistoryOfConcertSound.org => Topic started by: duane massey on May 20, 2012, 04:57:41 PM
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Back in the early days a lot of the mixers that were in use were one-of-a-kind or handbuilt by the "sound company". I know we built some strange creatures, and I used a few built by others.
What were some of your strangest encounters, either your own or from others?
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Back in the early days a lot of the mixers that were in use were one-of-a-kind or handbuilt by the "sound company". I know we built some strange creatures, and I used a few built by others.
What were some of your strangest encounters, either your own or from others?
I was in the business for about 6 years or more before I owned a "real" console. I was using homemade consoles before that. And when I say homemade-I hand drew each circuit path on the circuit boards-etched them in the bathtub and drilled each hole by hand. Not to mention pressing on each letter of each control one at a time. So "Bass" took 4 letter presses-on each channel.
Of course the consoles were limited in functionality-such as a 3 band eq and 4 auxes per channel. But that was plenty back then.
I also built my own lighting consoles and dimpaks and actually ran into one of them sitll being used several years ago.
I have no idea about the audio consoles-but I really doubt they are still around. But they served me well-while I had them.
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Ivan, when did you start building your own consoles?
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Ivan, when did you start building your own consoles?
My first one was a 4 channel with volume-bass and treble with a master volume on the output-no auxs.
The chassis was gottten from my first guitar amp-(a Kay 35 watt with a sinlge 12" speaker). I blew it up before I realized how important impedance was. It didn't like driving something like a 1/2 ohm load. The amp version that I had only had 2 inputs and volume and tone control. But I removed the covering and there were all these holes (for upper level models) sitting there just waiting to be used.
That would have been back in late 1976.
Next was a 6 channel with volume bass middle and treble per channel and 1 aux.
Around 1981 came a 12 channel that had several auxes. I started-but never finished a 24 channel console that was "going to be great". It had a noise problem I never could work out-so many hundreds of hours went into the trash. THAT was a hard thing to throw away-but I needed the room. The faceplate was made from an old rack door. It took quite awhile to drill all those holes.
My first "real" console was a Biamp 1621. I used that for MANY a gig. Simple and easy to use-worked great.
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We had a small family business that morphed into a sound and lighting company, started in 1970. The first mixer we built used several Archer 4-channel hi-Z mixers that we deconstructed and built into a chassis. We used slide controls, because we saw a picture of a UK console that had sliders, and used those ugly colored plastic knobs. The first (and last) act to use it was Osibisa. The engineer was really nice and used the mixer without any negative comments, but after the show he said "You should be aware that the the slider should go up in volume when you raise it. I haven't used many consoles with sliders, but the other ones were like that". Now THAT was embarrassing, not to mention the 75' high-impedance snake. This was 1971, in a college gym here in Houston.
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The second board I ever built was a 10 in by stereo out, circa 1967... I built it for Wendy Carlos (Switched on Bach) and the engraving was all done in Olde English type as was the third board (1969), an 18 by 7 out console... all used Spectra-Sonics preamps.. a risky situation with RF problem potential in New York City. We survived just fine...The first(1964) was a 12 by 4 using Dynakit preamps and Altec compressors on each input... not a very good board...
bob schwarz
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We did actually go into small-scale production of consoles, amps, speakers, etc, and built some decent consoles for the lower$$ market. Did everything in-house except the anodizing of the aluminum. Spent many many hours hours drilling PCBs, loading PCBs, wiring the internal parts, building snakes with multi-pin connectors, punching aluminum plates, silk-screening, etc. As I said, a small family business, but with very few outside employees. I DO NOT miss those days, but I'm glad I did it.
There was one sound company locally that showed up for a gig ( I was playing at this one) with a console that was at least 6' long. Wouldn't let anyone near it at first, and they kept raising the back up and wiggling things in it. I finally got close enough to see the top, and saw that it was all plywood with one row of round knobs spaced 6" apart. Later that day they all went on break, but left the back open on it, so naturally I had to peek inside. They had a whole row of Shure mic mixers laying inside with "L" pads between the mic connections and the inputs on the mixers. I still don't know how it worked at all.
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Does anyone remember Terry Kane, from New Orleans? He built a few compact mixers with clear plexiglass faceplates.
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. Spent many many hours hours drilling PCBs, loading PCBs, wiring the internal parts, building snakes with multi-pin connectors, punching aluminum plates, silk-screening, etc. As I said, a small family business, but with very few outside employees. I DO NOT miss those days, but I'm glad I did it.
Agreed. But I do miss building gear. I still do it from time to time (on a smaller scale) for things in which there is no commericial products available. And no market for them-but we need from time to time.
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Agreed. But I do miss building gear. I still do it from time to time (on a smaller scale) for things in which there is no commericial products available. And no market for them-but we need from time to time.
If you miss building equipment... build more of it, you will get it out of your system soon enough.. And these days get good magnifying glasses...
JR
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If you miss building equipment... build more of it, you will get it out of your system soon enough.. And these days get good magnifying glasses...
JR
+1 ;D
Hammer
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If you miss building equipment... build more of it, you will get it out of your system soon enough.. And these days get good magnifying glasses...
JR
Back when I was doing this a lot-my eyesigt was fine. Now I need glasses-even to read the numbers on the IC's
It's not like I miss it a whole lot-more that I enjoy doing it every now and then.
You know-have an idea-work through the possible issues-then build it and test it. It is great when it works the first time-but I do enjoy the challenge (sometimes) of it not working right off-and then the troubleshooting part of it.
I still enjoy having a problem and then finding out the answer. It's when you can't find the answer that it gets frustrating.
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+++1 on eyesight. I'm trying to scrape together enough $$ for cataract surgery, and even then I'm still gonna need reading glasses.
I enjoy solving problems, but sometimes even seeing the problem is a challenge. I would say "At least I still have my hearing", but the continuous ringing in both ears would make me a liar as well. Getting old sucks, but it's better than the alternative.
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I used to fill up notebooks with design ideas, but finally stopped because it is unpleasant to be reminded of so many wasted ideas. As a wise man once said it's all mental masturbation if you don't reduce it to practice.
We are in a golden age of technology that makes a lot of these "I wish I could make this" possible (think cheap microprocessors). I still don't do many side projects, while I agree developing new stuff is the fun part of this business (any business). Sometimes I apply my nonlinear thought process to non-audio matters. I've added a ground effects package to my lawnmower (reinforced rubber sheeting) so I can get good suction and mulching with a higher deck height, and recently plumbed the bypass water from my RO filter, to get free flush water for my bathroom toilet (yes I'm single). 8)
JR
PS: Duane good luck with the getting old thing... you are not alone. Getting old is not for wimps.
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Back in the early days a lot of the mixers that were in use were one-of-a-kind or handbuilt by the "sound company". I know we built some strange creatures, and I used a few built by others.
What were some of your strangest encounters, either your own or from others?
Around Minneapolis there were several console builders in the 1970s.
My first "real" console, circa 1976, was an 18 channel Straight Up Systems board designed by Mark Wingo. I built the exterior from Honduras Mahogany, it featured a drink rack the width of the console beneath the rotary volume faders.
It had a 5 channel drum sub-master section, 4 auxes, and stereo main outputs.
The drum sub had it’s own pan controls, so for drum solos one could rotate the two seperately and get some weird pan positions for all the drums with just two knobs.
All Bourns potentiometers, that board is still in occasional use last I checked.
In 1978-9 Mill City Systems built a monitor console to my specifications, kind of a cross between a Yamaha PM1000 and a Stevensen Interface monitor console.
Stevensen was to my knowledge, the first USA company making dedicated monitor consoles with 8 aux sends.
Jim Giesler lost most of his remaining hair figuring out how to make the Mill City monitor board's features conform to my ergonomic requests.
It had an 8 position input pad, Jensen input transformers, 3 way tone with 8 switchable mid frequencies and 8 mixes. It was as strong as a Midas, 24 all steel individual channels. We had incorporated all the best features of the desks (other than parametric EQ, more difficult and knob intensive) current at that time.
As many board of the time, It was a one of a kind unit, stolen in 1985 with a complete system including a used Midas console that had just made it across the pond. We had just installed multi connectors for inserts and effects on the back of the Midas, I never got to mix on it in the week before it went on tour.
The Mill City Monitor console channels circuit boards each were imprinted with "custom made for Art Welter", that board probably never could have been fenced.
I recovered much of the speaker system and the splitter snake in 1994, I still wonder about the fate of those two desks.
The most interesting looking consoles of that erra were a pair of "Captain Nemo" desks built for Anicom (After Now Communications) in the late 1970's.
Like Clair's flip top console of that era, the Captain Nemo desk had parametric EQ, a rarity at the time.
The outstanding feature which led to it's nickname was triangular shaped channels allowing the bottom to be just little over the Penny & Giles fader width, while wider at the top allowing all the many knobs to have room to grab.
The pair of desks were 40 channels when linked, but the 40 channel and 10 sub and main faders only took up about 38 inches in width, while the upper portion of the console arced out in a semi circle. The board could be split so Anicom could do two 20 channel shows simultaniously. 16 channel boards were plenty for most groups back then.
Picture a pizza pie cut in half, a small semi-circle cut out of the flat side, then sliced into 50 slices and you have the visual. The semicircular Captain Nemo board had a steep up angle reminiscent of a Greek ampitherater.
The triangular channel feature should have caught on, all the 800 or so knobs and faders were within easy arm’s reach without having to move from the sweet spot at the helm of the Captain Nemo desk.
As was typical of many consoles of that era, grounding and connector problems were rife, the Captain Nemo boards were hard to keep functional and frequently buzzy, clients would request "anything that works" over what was viewed at the time as kind of a science fiction nightmare.
I can remember tales of Albert L. of Audio Analysts in search of sonic purity spending untold thousands of dollars and hours trying to eliminate transformers from from the audio chain.
Although it would work in the shop, in the field one off tolerance resister or capacitor out of thousands in a pair of Soundcraft desks could still make the entire system buzz.
The rest of us were resigned to buying expensive high quality input and splitter transformers and lift pin 1 on all the monitor inputs to avoid radio noise and ground loop hums and buzz.
It still amazes me that a pair of commonslob cheap & cheerful consoles costing less in today’s inflated money than the price of a 1975 era set of transformers can now be linked with simple “Y” cord connection and not make any noise.
Art Welter
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I can remember tales of Albert L. of Audio Analysts in search of sonic purity spending untold thousands of dollars and hours trying to eliminate transformers from from the audio chain.
Although it would work in the shop, in the field one off tolerance resister or capacitor out of thousands in a pair of Soundcraft desks could still make the entire system buzz.
The rest of us were resigned to buying expensive high quality input and splitter transformers and lift pin 1 on all the monitor inputs to avoid radio noise and ground loop hums and buzz.
It still amazes me that a pair of commonslob cheap & cheerful consoles costing less in today’s inflated money than the price of a 1975 era set of transformers can now be linked with simple “Y” cord connection and not make any noise.
Art Welter
The young guys getting into the field today-have no idea how hard it was to produce decent audio back then.
It often took quite a bit of work to get the noise down to an "acceptable" level. I remember many battles myself.
Anybody who has ever tried to hook a passive White eq up without teminating it-was in for an "interesting" experience in trying to eq a system.
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I came from more of a studio background than live sound. Building custom gear for studios was very common. I knew at least two working studios in CT using DIY home brew consoles as their primary audio path. I rented a house for a while with a roommate who rolled his own recording console (without any help from me).
I was designing production recording consoles by the late '70s but the first company I worked with (LOFT) went belly up before delivering many finished units. They had orders but couldn't manage the business side of running a company adequately (I was just the circuit design guy).
Live sound (IMO) has often followed more of a MASH surgery strategy, of doing whatever it takes to get passable sound from a given location and situation. Studio operation was more about investing time to ring out a room to get noise levels down, while the technology made dramatic leaps forward in the '70's and '80s. Some would argue that recent improvements have been more refinements on technology, while the sound quality available to live sound has improved quite a lot, since then. The sound quality of the good old days was not as good as the memories.
JR
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The young guys getting into the field today-have no idea how hard it was to produce decent audio back then.
It often took quite a bit of work to get the noise down to an "acceptable" level. I remember many battles myself.
Anybody who has ever tried to hook a passive White eq up without teminating it-was in for an "interesting" experience in trying to eq a system.
Properly terminated, White EQs sound great, the underrated USA equivalent of Klark Technic.
I remember the rotary knob 1970s Whites that had 1/6 octave centers for the bottom octave (or two?) we don't need no stinkin' parametrics.
Later, I owned several of the dual 27 band White 4700 analog audio circuit, digital control units, they seemed to sound as good as the older Whites, and other than the crappy Alesis analog single space dual 1/3 octave EQ from that early 80's period, they were the only single space dual 1/3 octave unit on the market.
Started using Klark Technic EQs on subgroup inserts back in the '70s, when I tried doing the same with the White 4700's, no matter what termination scheme I tried, the noise floor was just plain bad.
They were dead clean driving amps and crossovers, but after days of trying everything in the book, including transformers, finally gave up on them for use in inserts.
I hung on to the Whites and Klark Technic DN 27s until purchasing the Alesis DEQ 830, eight good sounding 1/3 octave digital EQs in a single rack space.
The density available with digital devices is amazing.
Another interesting console from our younger days was the Paragon, each channel had a built in compressor/limiter and noise gate. The console was huge, wider than a standard truck width (90 inches back then) and weighed literally a half ton in a road case. Though the built in dynamic processing was decent, most users still required a rack full of insert gear for their "pet sounds".
The Paragon drew so much current that it required at least a 6/4 AC cable to prevent "brown out" at the console if you were going 250 feet, the standard USA "big boy" snake length.
The snake and AC weighed almost as much as the console.
The Paragon was an example of one of the many consoles that nearly required a full time tech and some spare channels and power supply to insure all the channels and their features actually worked from show to show.
Now the new Midas designed Behringer X32 can do far more than a Paragon, arguably sounds better, costs about as much as a single Paragon spare channel did, and I could carry a pair of X32 under my arms.
Art
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Another interesting console from our younger days was the Paragon, each channel had a built in compressor/limiter and noise gate. <snip>
The Paragon was an example of one of the many consoles that nearly required a full time tech and some spare channels and power supply to insure all the channels and their features actually worked from show to show.
(Bad) dream rig for system techs would be a fully loaded Paragon and 20 amp racks full of CyberLogic.
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I, and probably many others, would love to see some pictures of these home grown beauties, if you guys have any. I'm just old enough to have seen a few, but anyone younger than, say forty, might have a bit of time wrapping their mind around some of these creations. Thanks!
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I can only relate my experiences in the Texas Gulf Coast region, but there was not a market for live sound consoles (as we now know them) until the early 70's. What few "sound companies" that even attempted live sound cobbled together whatever they could piece together, mostly used studio or radio gear, and almost always DIY by trial & error. I remember a show with Billy Preston (we opened the show and did the sound) when we thought we were really ahead of the game when we mounted some paging horns on pieces of plywood and used them for stage monitors. Preston's band had never used monitors before, and were completely tickled. This was probably 1973. We were actually building consoles by then, and I think we had a 16ch with bass and treble, as well as a built-in 7-band graphic. The console was all transistors (pre-IC's) and actually worked reasonably well (at least the sliders weren't backwards).
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(Bad) dream rig for system techs would be a fully loaded Paragon and 20 amp racks full of CyberLogic.
Ah... Cyberlogic. Why don't I miss those amps?
Anyone remember Malatchi consoles? The McCune consoles? Stephenson Interface?
Mac
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I remember Stephenson Interface. There were 2-3 of those floating around in the late 70's in the Houston area.
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How about a slightly different twist on the console theme.
I had a bad habit of taking normal consoles and turning them into monitor consoles.
I will post some photos when I find them
Typically I would put pots where the faders were. Usually 5 would fit. Then the other aux controls were wired pre so they were seperate.
I have had 3 such consoles over the years.
The First one I didn't actually do-the others I did.
1st Kelsey 20channel turned into a 20x6 monitor console.
2nd VERY RARE. At one time Kustom (the roll and pleated company) made a "professional" console-right before they went out of business in the late 70's.
From what I was told (who know how correct this is), there were only 7 consoles like this made. I owned 4 of them and knew where a 5th was. These were 24channels-a 5 band eq on each channel (using true LCR filter sets)- variable high and low pass filters on each channel and a limiter on each channel/
I turned one of them into a 24x8. The others sold as scrap.
The biggest "undertaking" for a monitor console was turning a Mackie 32x8 into a 32x12 monitor console. This involved actually cutting off about 1/3rd of the circuit and a lot of rewiring. This was about a 2 month project.
I know that a couple of years ago this console was still being used.
I did quite a few gigs with these various consoles over the years.
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Ivan, we built a 14x6 monitor console w/built-in splits in the mid 70's. Probably sold 6 or so. I also modified a Kelsey for monitor use, used it along with a (ahem) Carvin mixer for a while (after we quit building consoles).
For our own use we built a really goofy onstage monitor mixer/power amp rack that had individual rows of sliders for each mix out. Rack was 60" tall and weighed a ton, and was painted bright, bright orange.
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I've got two of the original Ashly "Starship" consoles here in the shop.
Parametrics, compression, and crossover built right into the outputs, and you can lift it with one hand.
Unbelievably ahead of his time, Billy was.
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Ah... Cyberlogic. Why don't I miss those amps?
Anyone remember Malatchi consoles? The McCune consoles? Stephenson Interface?
Mac
I was going to mention Malatchi (Malachi?). They made one with all slider control, right? They were made somewhere in Boulder County I think.
I had a "Nep-Tune" graphic eq that seemed to have the same engineering behind it. MEQ-230s were a step up.
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I was going to mention Malatchi (Malachi?). They made one with all slider control, right? They were made somewhere in Boulder County I think.
I know they were from Colorado. they were popular in the theater for a brief time. I haven't been able to find any information. They also made a 1RU 4ch stereo mixer.
Mac
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How about a slightly different twist on the console theme.
I had a bad habit of taking normal consoles and turning them into monitor consoles.
John Wendt was the "king" of this type of mod and sold PM1000 modules that had 8 rotary pots in place of each channel's linear faders. He went on to consult on circuit design and noise reduction for Ramsa/Panasonic consoles, among others.
I first saw a Stephenson Interface mixer when I workd for Bearsville Sound in 1974-75 and I later mixed many shows on the monitor board they made when I worked for Sun Sound Audo in NoHo MA, 10 years later and as part of our C rig.
In about 1976 I came close to having a console made by two electronic design guys who set up shop in Waterbury CT and later went on to design for Acoustic (as in: bass amp systems).
There was a small handfull of sound companies out my way that modified Tascam Model 5 consoles for stage monitor duty. Not very good.
warning: slight swerve ......
The first time I ventured far enough into the "big time" to use (other than every now and then) a very well designed/made monitor console was when Sun Sound bought a TAC 40x12 stage monitor mixer that had just been shipped from Great Britain to Hartford CT. I drove our 22' box truck down to pick it up and, as we prepared to get it into the truck, I noticed the sound of things rolling around inside the crate. We cracked the crate open, removed the large cardboard box and found that they (TAC) had poorly attached the beefy rack-mount power supply (in its own box) on the inside of this box. It had broken free and over the duration of its trip the power supply had slid repeatedly around and "shaved" off evey single rotary control (and being a stage monitor mixer, there were lots of these), not to mention denting some of the metal work.
100% trashed. Covered by insurance but they took 6 months to come pick the carcass up.
Major bummer !
But the power supply was in pretty good shape ;-)
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Didn't Malatchi have some kind of kicking horse logo on the consoles?
Interface consoles were the real deal.
I mixed monitors on a PM1000 that had submaster switches replaced w/pots to make it 16x4 monitor.
Trouper boards?? Tangent??
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A big NY/NJ/CT band - Rat Race Choir - had a "quad" club sound system in the 70's-80's controlled by bolted-together Shure M67's. It was amazing for its day, but in retrospect it probably had a frightening FR, noise floor, etc...
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Back in the early days a lot of the mixers that were in use were one-of-a-kind or handbuilt by the "sound company". I know we built some strange creatures, and I used a few built by others.
What were some of your strangest encounters, either your own or from others?
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I remember "short loaded" consoles: 26 inputs in a 32 frame, etc. The really poor/optimistic soundguys wouldn't even spring for the factory strip "blanks" to close up the console. Usually the rest of the rig was similarly & "creatively" compromised.
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I remember seeing alot of Old neptune consoles ( I have a gl2200 in a old neptune case), as well as a few troupers, Some old Studiomasters, lots of old tapcos, a few biamps ( not as many as you think for the NW) and a weird rack mount Malachi. Later it was a suprisingly large amount of peavey Mark 4's and a few yamaha's with the ocational sound craft or Hill console.
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Ah... Cyberlogic. Why don't I miss those amps?
Anyone remember Malatchi consoles? The McCune consoles? Stephenson Interface?
Mac
Yes; Used a Stephenson Interface console.Brings back Memories!
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I, and probably many others, would love to see some pictures of these home grown beauties, if you guys have any. I'm just old enough to have seen a few, but anyone younger than, say forty, might have a bit of time wrapping their mind around some of these creations. Thanks!
In the 1980s and before, with import licensing in place in NZ, unless you were in broadcasting, gummint, had truckloads of money or friends in high places, building it yourself was THE ONLY option.
Here are a couple of the many I built :
One big (this was half of it)- http://homepages.kcbbs.gen.nz/moby/ARMixer.JPG
One small- http://homepages.kcbbs.gen.nz/moby/tmix.JPG
and one somebody else built in the 1960s that came to live with me (the mixer is the top bit, the 1300w tube amp below)- http://homepages.kcbbs.gen.nz/moby/bigamp.JPG
M
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In the 1980s and before, with import licensing in place in NZ, unless you were in broadcasting, gummint, had truckloads of money or friends in high places, building it yourself was THE ONLY option.
Here are a couple of the many I built :
One big (this was half of it)- http://homepages.kcbbs.gen.nz/moby/ARMixer.JPG
One small- http://homepages.kcbbs.gen.nz/moby/tmix.JPG
and one somebody else built in the 1960s that came to live with me (the mixer is the top bit, the 1300w tube amp below)- http://homepages.kcbbs.gen.nz/moby/bigamp.JPG
M
Hey Mike, have you seen this one on Trademe at the moment http://www.trademe.co.nz/music-instruments/pa-pro-audio-dj-equipment/mixers/auction-489960750.htm
:)
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I was designing production recording consoles by the late '70s but the first company I worked with (LOFT) went belly up before delivering many finished units. They had orders but couldn't manage the business side of running a company adequately (I was just the circuit design guy).
JR - Where was LOFT located? We had one of their boxes at Malaco in the late 70's. I think it was called a "Delay Line / Flanger" or somthing like it. I remember liking it quite a bit. It did some things none of our other boxes would do, and sounded better than the Eventide Flanger that was so popular at the time. IIRC, John Fry at Ardent had suggested we look into getting it.
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JR - Where was LOFT located? We had one of their boxes at Malaco in the late 70's. I think it was called a "Delay Line / Flanger" or somthing like it. I remember liking it quite a bit. It did some things none of our other boxes would do, and sounded better than the Eventide Flanger that was so popular at the time. IIRC, John Fry at Ardent had suggested we look into getting it.
Loft was located in Manchester CT. just outside Hartford.
Yup the Loft 440 and later Loft 450 delay line/flanger were nice sounding studio efx... but digital delay kind of killed the market for analog delay lines.
JR
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Certainly not bizarre or goofy but with the sad death of Neil Muncy I will mention using one of his creations, the SS ( Suburban Sound ) 3 mixer. A band I knew named Grits back in the day had built their own 1" eight track studio ( I'm talking early to mid 70s back in the day here ) and the mixer was an SS3 supplemented by a pair of API compressors and EQ modules. They brought the mixer out for their live gigs as well. My own system was still at the Tapco mixer level so being able to get the use of the SS3 occasionally was a real treat. Melcor potted op amps, sealed Allen Bradley pots, that thing was built like a tank.
It also gave me a life long appreciation for the idea that audio equipment does NOT have to have dead black control surfaces to be worthwhile. ;D
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Back in the early days a lot of the mixers that were in use were one-of-a-kind or handbuilt by the "sound company". I know we built some strange creatures, and I used a few built by others.
What were some of your strangest encounters, either your own or from others?
In 1979 we took on Johnny Cash. At the time, we had a second monitor console which was one of the early Ashly consoles with everything built in (mentioned in a reply elsewhere on this topic).
After seeing a John Wendt modified PM1000 monitor console (28 x 8 ) which had the bus pots at the top of the channel strip, and then seeing a Midas monitor console, I launched into two console mods (PM1000 16x6) for us with the bus pots in place of the channel slider.
One of these consoles was a very early serial number 302 and had the stepped attenuator channel sliders and was pretty useless as a house console.
The channel gain became a rotary pot in the physical location of the former pan pot. Two sliders were added to the headphone and talkback modules in place of the former rotary echo send masters.
We used quality cermet rotary pots, but ultimately they became noisy,
We used these two consoles for quite a while, the one on the Cash show was replaced by a Soundcraft and the one on the other system was replaced by a Yamaha MC3208.
One of these still works, and I keep it in my museum.
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Not particularly old but definitely goofy is this nine channel all valve (tube) mixer I built for a friend about ten years ago.
Two inserts per channel and four auxiliaries. No EQ (this is used for recording final stereo mixing rather than live).
(http://stevesmithphoto.webs.com/V-MIX-1.jpg)
(http://stevesmithphoto.webs.com/V-MIX-3.jpg)
Steve.
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Not particularly old but definitely goofy is this nine channel all valve (tube) mixer I built for a friend about ten years ago.
Two inserts per channel and four auxiliaries. No EQ (this is used for recording final stereo mixing rather than live).
(http://stevesmithphoto.webs.com/V-MIX-1.jpg)
(http://stevesmithphoto.webs.com/V-MIX-3.jpg)
Steve.
FINALLY, some pics!!! ... ;D
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Around Minneapolis there were several console builders in the 1970s.
Dredging up an old thread, but that's what this section is all about, right ;) ?
In '75-ish, we bought this little beauty from Anicom Sound in Minneapolis:
(http://www.alwaysakumal.com/images/Kicks Console 001.jpg)
3 sections of Allen + Heath 8 channel mixers linked together. I remember the directly soldered pots were problematic. Think I still have that crossover somewhere...
Dave
P.S. Not me in the photo - that was our light guy.
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The first monitor console I worked on was a "one off" 24x8. The gain was simple 3 way toggle switches. The channel EQ was 2 band with 3 selectable frequencies for each. The hi-pass was also a 3 way toggle switch. Perhaps the most unusual feature though was that is had built in graphic EQ's on each of the 8 outputs...well sort of. It actually only had three sliders for each EQ, but below each of those was a rotary switch that allowed you to select from 10 or 12 center points. It was actually pretty neat when you had good wedges that only needed a small notch here and there.
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I have been a pro audio dealer since 1972. We were dealers for both Stephenson Interface and Moms Wholesome Audio which we installed in numerous Big Daddy's Lounges around the southeast. We also installed half a dozen Midas for them.
Jerry Cameron from Cameron Sound was our local pioneer sound company and one of the consoles he built was based on API parts. The ZZ Top console had 24 550a's and 8 553's with 312 mic pre cards and 325 line output cards. API was kind enough to sell us both 440 faders and these strange summing blocks which were two boards which summing resistors were mounted between followed by a 2520. It sounded incredible but was EXTREMELY heavy.
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I have been a pro audio dealer since 1972. We were dealers for both Stephenson Interface and Moms Wholesome Audio which we installed in numerous Big Daddy's Lounges around the southeast. We also installed half a dozen Midas for them.
Jerry Cameron from Cameron Sound was our local pioneer sound company and one of the consoles he built was based on API parts. The ZZ Top console had 24 550a's and 8 553's with 312 mic pre cards and 325 line output cards. API was kind enough to sell us both 440 faders and these strange summing blocks which were two boards which summing resistors were mounted between followed by a 2520. It sounded incredible but was EXTREMELY heavy.
I worked at Southern Audio in Miami for Jim Wright, the summer of my Freshman year in college, 1982.
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Not exactly old but lem had the ultimix, a digital mixer with a true analog layout even down to having no mix recall at all.
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Not exactly old but lem had the ultimix, a digital mixer with a true analog layout even down to having no mix recall at all.
Worst of both worlds?
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Btw...I still have a Trouper expander,new in the box.
I also have White Instruments octal socket based filters to plug into BGW amps. Prior to DSP I thought it might be cool to have power amps that handled band restricted program material.
And a whole bunch of BGW spare modules I can't throw away.
Jerry Cameron was from a generation of Ham radio engineers that figured there wasn't anything he couldnt make...his rig was powered by Phase Linear 700's with 400's for HF and Mac2300's for LF
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I also have White Instruments octal socket based filters to plug into BGW amps. Prior to DSP I thought it might be cool to have power amps that handled band restricted program material.
I have a rack mount chassis that used the white eq filters.
I like to show it to people as how it used to be done.
You figure out what freq you need cut-how wide etc, then ORDER IT and wait for it to arrive.
Stick it in, then figure out if you need another filter and so forth until you get the system eqed weeks later
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IIRC...the White notch filter tuning master was Dr Boner
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Here's a pic from 1975. This was the album cover of our first release, and we used a pic of an older console built by our small company, Amphion, (probably 1973-4) instead of conventional artwork because (a) it tied in with the album title, "Ruff Mix", and (b) we couldn't afford real artwork.
At the top of the console partially visible were the 7-band eq's on the outputs. There were also provisions (although not installed on this unit) for a three-way (tri-amp) send from the console. Unit had a spring reverb and a mil-spec connector for a 16ch snake.
Lots and lots of hand wiring. No IC's, all transistors, built mostly out of ignorance because we truly didn't know better.
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built mostly out of ignorance because we truly didn't know better.
You can learn a lot with that technique.
Steve.
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You can learn a lot with that technique.
Steve.
That is where I got most of my sound education. Trial and error. LOTS of error.
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That is where I got most of my sound education. Trial and error. LOTS of error.
Me too. I think it's the best way.
Managers at work are always going on about 'right first time' as if it's some sort of mark of great competence, but probably because it looks good on a spreadsheet.
I am always telling them about one of my heroes, Edwin Land, inventor of Polaroid photography. He absolutely hated getting a solution straight away as it didn't teach him the parameters of the process. If you get it wrong many times, changing one thing at a time by a small amount until you narrow down the process, you will know what's going on. If you hit a working solution straight away, you don't know if you are in the middle of its tolerance or at one of the edges.
Steve.
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Me too. I think it's the best way.
Managers at work are always going on about 'right first time' as if it's some sort of mark of great competence, but probably because it looks good on a spreadsheet.
I am always telling them about one of my heroes, Edwin Land, inventor of Polaroid photography. He absolutely hated getting a solution straight away as it didn't teach him the parameters of the process. If you get it wrong many times, changing one thing at a time by a small amount until you narrow down the process, you will know what's going on. If you hit a working solution straight away, you don't know if you are in the middle of its tolerance or at one of the edges.
Steve.
But to many people-simply "working" is just fine.
But they never realize how good it "could be". Or they have never experienced better and think that "everything" is like that.
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Me too. I think it's the best way.
Managers at work are always going on about 'right first time' as if it's some sort of mark of great competence, but probably because it looks good on a spreadsheet.
I am always telling them about one of my heroes, Edwin Land, inventor of Polaroid photography. He absolutely hated getting a solution straight away as it didn't teach him the parameters of the process. If you get it wrong many times, changing one thing at a time by a small amount until you narrow down the process, you will know what's going on. If you hit a working solution straight away, you don't know if you are in the middle of its tolerance or at one of the edges.
Steve.
Characterizing something and zeroing in on a solution are wonderful. These days the "fail fast, fail hard" credo is used to excuse random flailing rather than trying to understand something.
Back in the days of modular synths I worked in a music store and tried to teach people how to use them. Someone would yank a patch cord out of one socket and stick it into another and it would stop making any sound at all. I would ask them why they did that. If they replied that they thought that the output of this would modulate that and maybe sound like this, then I would help them trace back the signal path and see where their inventively went astray and then help them see what the sound they were after could do. But all too often I would get a blank "I wanted to see what it sounded like." with no idea what they had done. I'd send them home with some basic patch diagrams and wait for them to come trade it in over the next couple months.
These days Silicon Valley seems to have two parallel paths. Throw everything against the wall and see what sticks. And, once something sort of sticks, mitigate every risk possible so that nobody can be blamed for it not staying up there.
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Certainly not bizarre or goofy but with the sad death of Neil Muncy I will mention using one of his creations, the SS ( Suburban Sound ) 3 mixer. A band I knew named Grits back in the day had built their own 1" eight track studio ( I'm talking early to mid 70s back in the day here ) and the mixer was an SS3 supplemented by a pair of API compressors and EQ modules. They brought the mixer out for their live gigs as well. My own system was still at the Tapco mixer level so being able to get the use of the SS3 occasionally was a real treat. Melcor potted op amps, sealed Allen Bradley pots, that thing was built like a tank.
It also gave me a life long appreciation for the idea that audio equipment does NOT have to have dead black control surfaces to be worthwhile. ;D
Neil Muncy and I became good friends over the last few years of his life. He was a great guy and very smart...our industry owes him a lot just for identifying and correcting the Pin-1 Problem.
I ended up servicing at least four SS-3 mixers which are still in use in studios here in Toronto. The folks that own them still swear by them. Here's the original sales brochure for them.
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Neil Muncy and I became good friends over the last few years of his life. He was a great guy and very smart...our industry owes him a lot just for identifying and correcting the Pin-1 Problem.
As someone essentially said earlier in this vintage thread after there'd been no replies for a couple years, it exists as a history repository so periodic revival is probably OK.
That's cool you got to know him. He came and gave a presentation to our AES Section (Pacific Northwest -Seattle-) in about 1989 or so about the Pin 1 problem. He needed some RFI sources, and I took my Spectrum Controls lighting dimmer, which put out huge RFI even after installation of some chokes, and I was proud/humiliated that he was quite impressed at how much BS it was putting out.
I will actually never forget the awesomeness of that meeting. He started just after 7:30pm with his presentation, and it was completely riveting to everyone in the room. We went from one thing to another to another to another, and were all on the same page in being fascinated by what he was telling us. And he seemed to enjoy being with us and was eager to share his knowledge, which, as you suggest, was ground-breaking at the time and is now accepted practice.
We got to a place where it seemed like it might be a good time to stop for a break and looked at the clock, and it was 12:30AM!
We've never had another meeting like that.
I took his words to heart, and that week went into my 25+ Carver PM-whatever-they were (1250? 2.0? some mixture of those) and put in little jumpers from pin 1 to chassis and never had any more hum/buzz problems with them.
I always wished we have him back again, but it wasn't to be. You're lucky in getting to know him.
Edit: Oh, hey, this is in the History of Concert Sound thread. Of course it can be added to years later.
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As someone essentially said earlier in this vintage thread after there'd been no replies for a couple years, it exists as a history repository so periodic revival is probably OK.
That's cool you got to know him. He came and gave a presentation to our AES Section (Pacific Northwest -Seattle-) in about 1989 or so about the Pin 1 problem. He needed some RFI sources, and I took my Spectrum Controls lighting dimmer, which put out huge RFI even after installation of some chokes, and I was proud/humiliated that he was quite impressed at how much BS it was putting out.
I will actually never forget the awesomeness of that meeting. He started just after 7:30pm with his presentation, and it was completely riveting to everyone in the room. We went from one thing to another to another to another, and were all on the same page in being fascinated by what he was telling us. And he seemed to enjoy being with us and was eager to share his knowledge, which, as you suggest, was ground-breaking at the time and is now accepted practice.
We got to a place where it seemed like it might be a good time to stop for a break and looked at the clock, and it was 12:30AM!
We've never had another meeting like that.
I took his words to heart, and that week went into my 25+ Carver PM-whatever-they were (1250? 2.0? some mixture of those) and put in little jumpers from pin 1 to chassis and never had any more hum/buzz problems with them.
I always wished we have him back again, but it wasn't to be. You're lucky in getting to know him.
Edit: Oh, hey, this is in the History of Concert Sound thread. Of course it can be added to years later.
Neil told me a story about doing a tour of the west coast with his "dog-and-pony-show" about the Pin-1 problem. He was somewhere, maybe San Francisco, doing his demo and when he switched to the "doesn't have the Pin-1 problem" example mixer, a locally supplied Mackie, it buzzed and hummed like crazy. On closer examination, it turned out that all of the jack hardware was loose (and therefore wasn't making a good chassis connection). When they tightened that up, it was quiet.
Later, up the coast in Woodinville, WA, he popped in to the Mackie factory and mentioned this incident to Greg Mackie. Greg said "Just a minute..." and went out to the factory floor. When he came back, he was holding one of the nut drivers (I forget whether they were electric or pneumatic) that they used to tighten all of the 1/4" jacks. In any case, it turned out that the clutches in these tools were worn out and so not tightening the nuts to the proper spec.
I wonder if your presentation was on that same trip.
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As someone essentially said earlier in this vintage thread after there'd been no replies for a couple years, it exists as a history repository so periodic revival is probably OK.
That's cool you got to know him. He came and gave a presentation to our AES Section (Pacific Northwest -Seattle-) in about 1989 or so about the Pin 1 problem. He needed some RFI sources, and I took my Spectrum Controls lighting dimmer, which put out huge RFI even after installation of some chokes, and I was proud/humiliated that he was quite impressed at how much BS it was putting out.
I will actually never forget the awesomeness of that meeting. He started just after 7:30pm with his presentation, and it was completely riveting to everyone in the room. We went from one thing to another to another to another, and were all on the same page in being fascinated by what he was telling us. And he seemed to enjoy being with us and was eager to share his knowledge, which, as you suggest, was ground-breaking at the time and is now accepted practice.
We got to a place where it seemed like it might be a good time to stop for a break and looked at the clock, and it was 12:30AM!
We've never had another meeting like that.
I took his words to heart, and that week went into my 25+ Carver PM-whatever-they were (1250? 2.0? some mixture of those) and put in little jumpers from pin 1 to chassis and never had any more hum/buzz problems with them.
I always wished we have him back again, but it wasn't to be. You're lucky in getting to know him.
Edit: Oh, hey, this is in the History of Concert Sound thread. Of course it can be added to years later.
Mr. Mortensen Sir! Dan if I may.
Approximately 18 months prior to Mr. Muncy's death, I'd heard, probably here on the LAB, that he was seeking donations of broadcast studio and / or transmitter gear to be used as display items in a museum he was affiliated with and hoping to open somewhere in the heart of downtown Toronto. From my past, I owned two PRISTINE McCurdy Radio Industries, NEVER installed anywhere, broadcast consoles; Two MINT CH12 Turntables and one lightly used HH12 (Home Hysteresis 12) turntable with all three installed in a row including SME arms and Stanton cartridges on a more than solid Arborite surfaced stand supported by detachable, custom welded, 2" square tubular steel chromed legs with adjustable leveling feet. I boldly wrote Mr. Muncy asking for an address where I could deliver all of this gear along with approximately 40 modules for the larger stereo console (a 4370 If I'm recalling correctly) all originally supplied factory manuals and drawings (A long time friend was a former MRI employee) a mint, never installed 9 input mono console complete with documentation but sans any internal modules and one used, but still operational, tube from the finals of either our Gates or GE 10 Kw transmitter. Mr. Muncy provided an address and we agreed upon a date and approximate time. I found myself backing into his home's driveway and knocking on a basement window as directed. Mr. Muncy exited from a side door wearing slippers to survey what I was delivering, then hollered in his side door for an associate to join him. Thus I found myself unloading my stuffed van into the hands of Mr. Muncy and the brains behind Surgex (an Australian fellow) followed by an invitation to join them in Mr. Muncy's air conditioned basement for a cooling beverage of my choosing. Thus followed more than two of the best, most educational / memorable hours of my life; To me, he was Mr. Muncy upon my arrival but he was most emphatically Neil when I departed. I can't recall his beverage of choice (Vodka martinis possibly) but he remained startled by my consumption of straight orange juice, ice water and skim milk by the time he was serving sandwiches, finger foods and snacks all around. Thinking about it, I must've been there for well over three hours by the time we'd emptied my van into one of his garages then escaped from the hot sun to his basement. Before I departed, Neil asked if I could spare him another 30 minutes as he would appreciate seeing my reaction to a presentation he and captain Surgex were rehearsing for a pending AES meeting of the Toronto AES chapter. Spare him my time!?!?!? Hellz bellz! I was MORE than flattered to be asked. Having observed my reactions during their presentation followed by politely pummeling me with queries, further food and beverages were offered which I refused as I had about 60 miles of crowded highways to traverse and a show or maintenance chore to get back to. I'd never attended an AES meeting prior to that point, perceiving their membership to be comprised of folks well above my lowly status; Mr. Muncy, some fellows from Rogers Communications along with Lipshitz and VanderKooy (Sp?) from Waterloo, Ontario's University of Waterloo. About a week later I found a personal invitation from Neil to attend the Toronto AES meeting where he and Captain Surgex were the guests of honor / keynote speakers. I arrived to find the lobby already packed when this unknown stranger (Me) arrived and joined the crowd hoping to gain entry. To say I was surprised would be more than putting it mildly when someone peaked out shortly before the scheduled starting time calling for me BY NAME. The looks on the faces of the remaining throng in the lobby were beyond priceless. Upon entry, clutching my personal invite on the rear of one of Neil's business cards, I was escorted to a vacant seat about a third of he way across the front row.
Such are my memories of Neil Muncy along with a couple of phone calls and my extreme sadness at his passing.
Thanks Mr. Mortensen for invoking happy memories.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
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I wonder if your presentation was on that same trip.
I would have to think so. Our meeting was in the U District of Seattle, and Woodinville is 20-30 min away. I don't remember where he was staying, but there was a motel almost across the street from our then-meeting place and it wouldn't surprise me if he was there.
Mr. Mortensen Sir! Dan if I may.
Of course, Ron. No need to be formal here.
However, it would be easier to read your great stories (and that was a wonderful one) if you used the return key more often to break up that huge wall of text. Even though wading through it is worth it, you'll lose a lot of readers who would otherwise very much enjoy reading what you want to share.
Did that museum ever open up?
Did Neil know Marshall McLuhan, another great Canadian? I've imagined them chatting, and wondered what it would have been like to be a listener.
Thanks again for the great stories, both of you.