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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Lighting Forum => Topic started by: Dave jones1 on February 17, 2021, 04:31:18 pm

Title: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Dave jones1 on February 17, 2021, 04:31:18 pm
I am looking at two different lasers

https://www.beamzlighting.com/product/pandora-600-ttl-laser-rgb/
Red 200mW @ 650nm
Green 50mW @ 532nm
Blue 150mW @ 447nm


And https://www.laserworld.com/en/laserworld-ds/laserworld-ds-1000rgb.html#detail_desc

Red 200 mW / 638 nm
Green 140 mW / 520 nm
Blue 700 mW / 450 nm

Its only going to be used for house parties in a room of around 40 Square meters and people will be standing around 4 meters away from it. The second one looks like it could be too powerful for what I need. The reason I am considering the second one is because I was told that it can produce more colors because the first one is   TTL laser and I have been told that a TTL laser is not as good.
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Don T. Williams on February 17, 2021, 05:06:29 pm
Your displayed name must be your real full name to post on the forum.  Please see the forum rules.  That said - DON'T USE THOSE!!!!!
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Dave jones1 on February 17, 2021, 06:17:01 pm
 
Your displayed name must be your real full name to post on the forum.  Please see the forum rules.  That said - DON'T USE THOSE!!!!!

I changed the name now. Why not use these lasers ? I've seen some videos and they look pretty good
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 17, 2021, 06:26:23 pm

I changed the name now. Why not use these lasers ? I've seen some videos and they look pretty good

They'll look great until you go blind.
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Dave jones1 on February 17, 2021, 06:32:37 pm
They'll look great until you go blind.

Isnt that like any laser at any event though? These ones say they are for small parties so I imagine they are much less powerful than a laser at a proper event.

Is it because of the distance ? Since I'll only be around 3 or 4meters away. I understand at an event people are usually much further away.

I can keep the Beamz one which Is less powerful but I miss out on the full color range of the other one then. I imagine on the software I could just turn down the power of the laser though?
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Steve-White on February 17, 2021, 06:46:10 pm
Isnt that like any laser at any event though? These ones say they are for small parties so I imagine they are much less powerful than a laser at a proper event.

Is it because of the distance ? Since I'll only be around 3 or 4meters away. I understand at an event people are usually much further away.

I can keep the Beamz one which Is less powerful but I miss out on the full color range of the other one then. I imagine on the software I could just turn down the power of the laser though?

Asking what you are asking is an indication that you don't have any awareness of FDA regulations regarding LASER Emissions for entertainment.

Look here sir:  https://www.fda.gov/radiation-emitting-products/home-business-and-entertainment-products/laser-light-shows

To answer your question - yes, way too powerful and extremely dangerous.
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Dave jones1 on February 17, 2021, 07:07:14 pm
Asking what you are asking is an indication that you don't have any awareness of FDA regulations regarding LASER Emissions for entertainment.

Look here sir:  https://www.fda.gov/radiation-emitting-products/home-business-and-entertainment-products/laser-light-shows

To answer your question - yes, way too powerful and extremely dangerous.

There are regulations for eveything.  If every single regulation was followed, no parties or events would exist. Sowmrimes its better to live life rather than follow every single tiny regulation. And regulations are usually very over cautious and don't reflect real life values. I am only doing small house parties with a few people. And looking for the best way to do this. Simply saying not to use a laser is not really a useful answer. It would be more useful to guide me on making it safe or offering an alternative laser with different power. What kind of power would be recommended for a house party of the size I mentioned ? I was also looking at cheaper lasers which are less powerful but don't seem to produce the same effects
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 17, 2021, 07:09:05 pm
There are regulations for eveything.  If every single regulation was followed, no parties or events would exist. Sowmrimes its better to live life rather than follow every single tiny regulation. And regulations are usually very over cautious and don't reflect real life values. I am only doing small house parties with a few people. And looking for the best way to do this. Simply saying not to use a laser is not really a useful answer. It would be more useful to guide me on making it safe or offering an alternative laser with different power. What kind of power would be recommended for a house party of the size I mentioned ? I was also looking at cheaper lasers which are less powerful but don't seem to produce the same effects

Well, you asked and we answered. It's now up to you.
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Steve-White on February 17, 2021, 07:45:13 pm
There are regulations for eveything.  If every single regulation was followed, no parties or events would exist. Sowmrimes its better to live life rather than follow every single tiny regulation. And regulations are usually very over cautious and don't reflect real life values. I am only doing small house parties with a few people. And looking for the best way to do this. Simply saying not to use a laser is not really a useful answer. It would be more useful to guide me on making it safe or offering an alternative laser with different power. What kind of power would be recommended for a house party of the size I mentioned ? I was also looking at cheaper lasers which are less powerful but don't seem to produce the same effects

This site is frequented by experienced professionals.  Notice nobody stepped up and told you "how to".  Consider if you were asking on how to create home made pyrotechnic devices.  Nobody would tell you for a myriad of reasons, liability, lawfulness, etc.  But the main reason would be ethical in nature - 99.99% chance you would injure yourself and others.

The info I provided is the nuts and bolts of it and is fairly straight forward.  Not playing games with you.  The lighting devices you inquired about are dangerous and can cause blindness from a very short exposure.  There is no way that type of equipment can be operated safely or ethically in a home setting by an inexperienced operator and no experienced professional would even entertain the idea.

Look at something like a Chauvet Scorpion Storm FX and maybe some kind of Faze or Haze to go with it.  I use them angled upwards onto the ceiling and they look good.  Also perhaps a couple of small moving head lights such as the Intimidator.  Hit a mirrored ball with a couple of 25W moving head lights and it's spectacular.

We are collectively recommending you stay away from higher powered lasers.  They require licensing and cannot be legally operated less that 10' over a dancing area and a host of other requirements on distance and rigging.

You can build up a nice light show that's both safe for your patrons and legal to operate.

 
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Scott Holtzman on February 17, 2021, 07:48:05 pm
There are regulations for eveything.  If every single regulation was followed, no parties or events would exist. Sowmrimes its better to live life rather than follow every single tiny regulation. And regulations are usually very over cautious and don't reflect real life values. I am only doing small house parties with a few people. And looking for the best way to do this. Simply saying not to use a laser is not really a useful answer. It would be more useful to guide me on making it safe or offering an alternative laser with different power. What kind of power would be recommended for a house party of the size I mentioned ? I was also looking at cheaper lasers which are less powerful but don't seem to produce the same effects


You login to a professional forum consisting of some of the most experienced folks in the world working on tours for artists you have heard on and expect them to emotionally validate you risking your friends eye sites at your house party.  Is something wrong with you?


Either that or you are just schilling for the vendor to spam the URL's to this forum.


In any event, this is utter foolishness.


No, not everyone breaks the rules. 



Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Dave jones1 on February 17, 2021, 10:03:12 pm
Does it really take such professionals to operate a laser though ?  So to operate a simple piece of equipment I need to have a degree in lasers? I feel as if all these professionals are here to discourage people in using lasers to make their job feel more exclusive and more important. I can see why professionals get offended when a simple everyday guy buys a professional laser for home use.  They want their job to be validated by scaring others away from using lasers to give the impression that only professionals  are allowed to use lasers. Its quite sad really, maybe these professionals should find another career if they are so protective over their precious lasers.
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Jeff Lelko on February 17, 2021, 10:29:36 pm
There are regulations for eveything.  If every single regulation was followed, no parties or events would exist. Sowmrimes its better to live life rather than follow every single tiny regulation.

Its quite sad really, maybe these professionals should find another career if they are so protective over their precious lasers.

The fact that you would make such statements to a community of professionals, online, using your (supposedly) real name is all the proof I need to say that you are wholly unqualified to ever handle any equipment that concerns life safety. 

Scott already vouched for the pedigree of the community here.  I don't feel the need to state my credentials here nor explain why I'd be qualified to speak about event safety - to the pubic or in your house for that matter - but since your demeanor is one of sheer recklessness I feel obliged to elaborate since safety is a core value to me and my crews...

I am an accomplished lead pyrotechnician responsible for discharging some of the largest outdoor displays in the state.  The safety of people numbering in the hundreds of thousands rests solely on me.  I follow the regulations - every. single. one.  In many cases I opt to exceed the minimum requirements where I feel appropriate based on my experience and the firing techniques of my choosing.  Licensing and legalities aside I feel a strong moral obligation to put on the absolute safest display possible each and every time.  Life-changing accidents happen in a split-second and I refuse to live with causing such a tragedy because there was something I could have done better. 

Sadly there are many examples of pyrotechnics (and lasers) gone wrong, but I'm sure the victims understand that the operator felt it was better to just "live life" rather than worry, right?
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Steve-White on February 17, 2021, 10:59:15 pm
Does it really take such professionals to operate a laser though ?  So to operate a simple piece of equipment I need to have a degree in lasers? I feel as if all these professionals are here to discourage people in using lasers to make their job feel more exclusive and more important. I can see why professionals get offended when a simple everyday guy buys a professional laser for home use.  They want their job to be validated by scaring others away from using lasers to give the impression that only professionals  are allowed to use lasers. Its quite sad really, maybe these professionals should find another career if they are so protective over their precious lasers.

Take your dimwit comments and go troll somewhere else.
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on February 17, 2021, 11:45:26 pm
The cool factor of a laser also makes the distance from the audience irrelevant.
The light beam is effectively zero degrees, so loses NO power over distance.
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Dave jones1 on February 18, 2021, 05:35:40 am
Take your dimwit comments and go troll somewhere else.

Not really. I came here seeking help from these so called "professionals" about the safest way and best way to operate one of these lasers. Instead of that, the only responses I get are the fan boys saying "don't use it". Imagine if that is how everybody lived their life. There are many risky and dangerous things in life, but people do it anyway. Simply not doing something just because it poses some risks isn't a reason not to do it. There are safe and unsafe ways to do things. For example just look at any type of extreme outdoor activity or extreme sport. Would you tell everybody not to do these just because they have risks ? No you would offer advice and help that person do it in the safest possible way. You wouldn't simply say "don't do any extreme sports or outdoor activities". Another example is alcohol. There are safe and unsafe ways to drink. Instead of simply saying "don't drink" you would instead explain how to drink safely.

Anyway I have been able to find the information I need myself now by emailing the laser company. So here is the solution for anybody needing actual advice and help. With the Laserworld laser its possible to adjust the brightness of all the lasers individually and setup safety zones. So to do this safely a safety zone can be setup for the lower part of the audience which will dramatically reduce the power of the lasers on the lower part. While keeping the lasers with more power on the upper part . Also the overall powerful of all the lasers can be reduced so it can be taken down from 1000mw to a much lower value.

So this super dangerous laser can be changed into soemrbing much safer and less powerful with some  basic settings. You see ? Actual useful information which I can apply. Its shame all these so called professionals were not able to suggest anything like this. These guys are really defensive abiut their job and I'm guessing probably don't like it when somebody with no experience can pretty much do the same thing as them
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Jeff Lelko on February 18, 2021, 06:21:06 am
Not really. I came here seeking help from these so called "professionals" about the safest way and best way to operate one of these lasers. Instead of that, the only responses I get are the fan boys saying "don't use it".

Yes - you asked a question, got a unanimous response, didn't like it, and are going to carry on anyways...  I'm not going to waste time arguing about implied risk since you can't fix stupid, but for the benefit of those who use this site as a valuable resource I feel the obligation to correct many of the misconceptions you have.

...a safety zone can be setup for the lower part of the audience which will dramatically reduce the power of the lasers on the lower part. While keeping the lasers with more power on the upper part . Also the overall powerful of all the lasers can be reduced so it can be taken down from 1000mw to a much lower value.

Absolutely not.  That isn't how laser power works.  Proper safety zones function by either outright masking or the use of a diffraction filter.  This should NOT be interpreted as a safe means for audience scanning.  Safe audience scanning with lasers takes many more factors into account such as scan speed and beam persistence.  This is not a trivial excise and is only permissible in very specific instances.  Beam "power" constantly varies and is not a direct correlation to the safety of anything once you get beyond 5mW.

So this super dangerous laser can be changed into soemrbing much safer and less powerful with some  basic settings. You see ?

Nope.  What you are doing is blatantly illegal, not to mention reckless.  Steve already pointed you to the relevant FDA literature on how to approach lasers safely and also gave you suggestions on safer products that can be used instead.  You have ignored both comments.  Additionally, Laserworld has been accused of poor quality control particularly concerning the IR energy being emitted from their products.  They also lack basic safety features required for compliance with FDA regulations.  Whatever advice they gave you is either outright wrong or was misinterpreted by you - probably a mix of both.  I hope you're still having fun "proving us wrong" when you join the tattooed retina club!
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Matthias McCready on February 18, 2021, 09:44:35 am
There are many risky and dangerous things in life, but people do it anyway.


Yep, and in a past life I used to treat those people in the Emergency Department  ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Daniel Levi on February 18, 2021, 10:32:01 am
I know when I went to see Jean Michel Jarre in Cardiff they had the top section of seating closed off because of laser safety.
Professional/higher power laser effects are for professionals only, and that's for a very good reason. Lasers can and will blind you.
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Dave Garoutte on February 18, 2021, 02:01:21 pm
Make sure you have everyone sign a waiver at the door showing they understand that they could be blinded, and accept that risk.
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: John L Nobile on February 18, 2021, 02:49:57 pm
I've always wanted to use lasers on stage but the dangers and lack of knowledge always stopped me.

Good news is that there are many other effects that can do a similar job. Moving lights have worked for that itch. Maybe a few Sharpies?
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 18, 2021, 03:34:35 pm
I've always wanted to use lasers on stage but the dangers and lack of knowledge always stopped me.

Good news is that there are many other effects that can do a similar job. Moving lights have worked for that itch. Maybe a few Sharpies?

Actually an old video projector works as a fantastic substitute that is completely safe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oComWw9XrNk&ab_channel=Siyoung

I've done this several times using https://www.musicbeam.org/
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Don T. Williams on February 18, 2021, 05:17:49 pm
I was the first person to tell him not to use those lasers.  I didn't have time to explain why.  I guess I should have made the time, but I didn't want him blinding someone before I could explain why.  Now it seems like he doesn't want to hear or know why he should never use those.  What I would have suggested is the purchase of "safe" and inexpensive lasers to use for his party.  With a haze machine they are a great effect for a house party, are probably much less expensive that what Dave either already foolishly purchased (or was considering), and they have many effects already built in.  Blizzard, ADJ, Chauvet, and others (including Ebay) have such devices but even these need to be used safely.  The fact that anyone can buy high powered lasers on Ebay doesn't make them safe!  I can only hope Dave comes around and understands the forum members are not trying to stop him from having fun.  We were only trying to make certain he didn't hurt himself or someone else.  This was not a personal attack.  It was professional advice at his request.  I can only hope he heeds what has been given.
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Jeff Lelko on February 18, 2021, 06:19:44 pm
I've always wanted to use lasers on stage but the dangers and lack of knowledge always stopped me.

Good news is that there are many other effects that can do a similar job. Moving lights have worked for that itch. Maybe a few Sharpies?

I have a half-dozen Elation Sniper Pros in my personal inventory for just such occurrences.  With a 14R lamp, extremely fast scanning, assortment of prisms, and full-color CMY mixing they can pull off some impressive effects.  While obviously not a true laser they're safe to crowd scan with and fire into the sky - no variance or safety precautions needed.  Plenty of output for arena/amphitheater/stadium use too.  They're a neat substitute for when real lasers can't be used for cost or safety reasons...or if you just want a nice unique effect!
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Dave jones1 on February 18, 2021, 09:00:25 pm
I have decided to not purchase the laser after all. I have done a lot of reading and many people are advising against it and I don't want to worry all night during the party. Thank you for advising me on this

 I have a question about an alternative.  I found one that contains a laser. The product description says

CLASS 2 SHOW LASER
"At the top of the bar, next to the two mushroom effects, is a class 2 show laser, which does not need to be registered, nor does one have to be a laser safety officer to use it. The laser produces a large number of red and green dots that move around the room"

Link to item https://www.steinigke.de/en/mpn51741094-eurolite-led-kls-laser-bar-next-fx-light-set.html


It says in the product description that its a class 2 laser which is safe. However in the specifications it says the lasers are 130mw.

After looking here https://www.lasersafetyfacts.com/laserclasses.html It says anything over 5mw is considered a class 3b laser.

So I am confused on how this works exactly. Why are they claiming its class 2? Is it because there are other specs that need to be taken into account other than just the mw?
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Tim Weaver on February 18, 2021, 09:22:03 pm
I have decided to not purchase the laser after all. I have done a lot of reading and many people are advising against it and I don't want to worry all night during the party. Thank you for advising me on this

 I have a question about an alternative.  I found one that contains a laser. The product description says

CLASS 2 SHOW LASER
"At the top of the bar, next to the two mushroom effects, is a class 2 show laser, which does not need to be registered, nor does one have to be a laser safety officer to use it. The laser produces a large number of red and green dots that move around the room"

Link to item https://www.steinigke.de/en/mpn51741094-eurolite-led-kls-laser-bar-next-fx-light-set.html


It says in the product description that its a class 2 laser which is safe. However in the specifications it says the lasers are 130mw.

After looking here https://www.lasersafetyfacts.com/laserclasses.html It says anything over 5mw is considered a class 3b laser.

So I am confused on how this works exactly. Why are they claiming its class 2? Is it because there are other specs that need to be taken into account other than just the mw?

I don't know why they list it as class 2 and 130mw, but I would feel safe using this one for a party. Chances are it's 5mw and the specs are wrong.


You are making a wise choice. Make sure you have fog or haze to get the best out of this setup.
Title: Re: Is this laser too powerful for my house?
Post by: Brian Jojade on February 18, 2021, 11:06:51 pm
I have decided to not purchase the laser after all. I have done a lot of reading and many people are advising against it and I don't want to worry all night during the party. Thank you for advising me on this

 I have a question about an alternative.  I found one that contains a laser. The product description says

CLASS 2 SHOW LASER
"At the top of the bar, next to the two mushroom effects, is a class 2 show laser, which does not need to be registered, nor does one have to be a laser safety officer to use it. The laser produces a large number of red and green dots that move around the room"

Link to item https://www.steinigke.de/en/mpn51741094-eurolite-led-kls-laser-bar-next-fx-light-set.html


It says in the product description that its a class 2 laser which is safe. However in the specifications it says the lasers are 130mw.

After looking here https://www.lasersafetyfacts.com/laserclasses.html It says anything over 5mw is considered a class 3b laser.

So I am confused on how this works exactly. Why are they claiming its class 2? Is it because there are other specs that need to be taken into account other than just the mw?

Without knowing the details of that particular laser, there are one of 2 things.  1. they are lying. It's not really a class 2 laser, and the output exceeds the limit. Yes, there are a LOT of products out there that do that.

2. It's a 130mw source, but the beam is always split into multiple beams and no single beam exceeds the class 2 output.

Regardless, with lasers, the best practice is NEVER direct them into a crowd unless you know with 100% certainty that they are safe to use, and have multiple failsafes in place to prevent injuring someone.  Lasers in they eye can cause small pinpoint damage to the retina that may not be noticeable at first, but each pinpoint of damage will add up.  It takes surprisingly little power for a direct hit to do this damage.

Also, class 2 laser beams are, well, pretty boring without a significant amount of fog or haze.  You're honestly going to get way more bang for your buck using traditional lights.  And, even boring class 2 lasers are annoying as hell when they flash you in the eye.