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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Dan Godwin on April 23, 2019, 07:28:19 PM
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I received a rider for an upcoming performance I'm helping out with. I have a few questions and asked the promoter if I should reach out directly to the musician or go through him with questions. He answered other questions I had, but didn't give direction about the questions. Should I reach out again to the promoter or go directly to the musician? Thanks.
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I always go to the bands road manager whenever I have questions.
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I received a rider for an upcoming performance I'm helping out with. I have a few questions and asked the promoter if I should reach out directly to the musician or go through him with questions. He answered other questions I had, but didn't give direction about the questions. Should I reach out again to the promoter or go directly to the musician? Thanks.
If the promoter booked you (which is probably the case) and the rider was sent to you "via" the promoter ( band/musician emailed the rider to the promoter, the promoter [after reading it carefully...] in turn forwarded it to you) it would be best for you get answers from the promoter (the guy with the check book).
Going directly to the band would be ideal but in reality, if meeting a rider means that you will need to bring (or rent in) more gear (and charge extra for that gear) the promoter will have to agree to it - in writing.
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Should I reach out again to the promoter or go directly to the musician? Thanks.
Out of respect I would contact the promotor one more time, letting them know you will be contacting the band and to see if there is anything else you can do.
"I want to make sure everything goes smoothly for event X, and I have some questions which would be best answered by band x. I know you are busy so unless I hear otherwise from you I will be contacting them tomorrow. Looking forward to working with you, and let me know if there is anything else I can do for you or to prep for the event."
Do the best you can to contact the appropriate individuals. As suggested get a feel for what the promotor is willing to do and what the band needs. If there is a large discrepancy between expectations, certainly reach out, bands can be very accommodating when they know you are doing everything within your ability. Make the promotor aware of any discrepancies, especially before offering items to the band. In such case where expectations are clearly and reasonably laid out and the promotor is unwilling to abide by the rider (ie item x must be provided for the show to go on), this may not be a gig you want to be involved with.
Sometimes a band doesn't get back to you, or a promotor can be cagey about details. As long as you have made your best efforts to communicate and to manage expectations, that is acceptable.
Last week I had solo artist for a small conference, the promotor and I could not get a hold of him for weeks ahead of the event. The night before at 11:00PM the guy finally calls back! Keep in mind I was going to be loading up at 3:00AM. I was able to scramble resources and to get him what he needed, although I would not have if it had not been easy. Due to the communication problems, the promotor will not be using the artist again. Unfortunately the artist lost any future work before he even played a note.
This goes both ways. Make every reasonable attempt to communicate and accommodate.
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I always talk directly with the technical person from the band. I have found that the Promoter only wants to be assured that everything has been worked out with the talent or that we will need to bring in additional equipment and it is going to cost x amount. At that point, the Promoter can decide if they want to incur any additional cost or not.
Bill
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This:
I always talk directly with the technical person from the band. I have found that the Promoter only wants to be assured that everything has been worked out with the talent or that we will need to bring in additional equipment and it is going to cost x amount. At that point, the Promoter can decide if they want to incur any additional cost or not.
Bill
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There is no breach of contract by contacting the band's technical team first. You can tell them exactly what you are bringing and what you were paid to provide. It gives you the opportunity to work out what you MUST provide and what you may NOT NEED to provide. Now if the band is not willing to bend on things that you were not initially instructed to provide, then you can go to the promoter and work out the issues of how things will be billed and paid for beyond what was initially spec'd out. If you talk to the band and they say you MUST have a Neuman U87 for a vocal mic and a full line array side fill setup, you can then go to the promoter and fill them in on what's up. The promoter will then be able to work out further contract deals with the band to either fit the budget or pay to comply with the demands.
Typically when a job goes to bid, the riders are included or at the very least the promoter will include all the differing needs on the request in order to get a good estimate. Technical details like desk swaps, sharing of backline and stage space will usually be the large parts of the demands. The headliner usually sets the pace for what the PA must have and the local and supporting acts get whatever is left in the budget. The only way to know what those parameters are is to have conversations between both the promoter and the band's technical team.
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There is no breach of contract by contacting the band's technical team first. You can tell them exactly what you are bringing and what you were paid to provide. It gives you the opportunity to work out what you MUST provide and what you may NOT NEED to provide. Now if the band is not willing to bend on things that you were not initially instructed to provide, then you can go to the promoter and work out the issues of how things will be billed and paid for beyond what was initially spec'd out. If you talk to the band and they say you MUST have a Neuman U87 for a vocal mic and a full line array side fill setup, you can then go to the promoter and fill them in on what's up. The promoter will then be able to work out further contract deals with the band to either fit the budget or pay to comply with the demands.
Typically when a job goes to bid, the riders are included or at the very least the promoter will include all the differing needs on the request in order to get a good estimate. Technical details like desk swaps, sharing of backline and stage space will usually be the large parts of the demands. The headliner usually sets the pace for what the PA must have and the local and supporting acts get whatever is left in the budget. The only way to know what those parameters are is to have conversations between both the promoter and the band's technical team.
Remember this..."You got the old rider" Go from there.
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Last week I had solo artist for a small conference, the promotor and I could not get a hold of him for weeks ahead of the event. The night before at 11:00PM the guy finally calls back! Keep in mind I was going to be loading up at 3:00AM.
I had a case like that years ago (before the internet) and everything was sent via fax.
I could not get a stage layout or any information.
So the day of the gig I load up my normal setup. The band showed up AFTER door were open, so we are scrambling.
The manager asked why I didn't have things setup via the stage plot. I told him I never got it, when did he send it?
He said right before they left (it was a 5 hour drive). At that time I was at the venue with my system setup waiting on the band to arrive-at their scheduled sound check time.
Sure enough, when I got back to the office, the stage plot was sitting in my fax machine-----------
And the gig went downhill from there-but I won't go there---- We've all had those types of shows where you just want to walk out on the stage and punch the artist in front of the crowd for being an idiot-but I didn't.
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Almost all riders contain a contact number and email for those who have the final say. In terms of sound that is almost certainly the band engineer. He will know what they have specced, what they must have and what they can work with. If at that point they require something you don’t have, they may have it themselves or be able to bring it. If they don’t, then is the time to talk to whoever holds the purse strings and discuss potential additional costs.
Often with riders, you will find that things are out of date. Sometimes line-ups have changed, certain things listed they may be carrying themselves, I.e. ear systems, radios, specific mics and backline. Most things are negotiable, for example, I’m doing cover for a local venue with a small stage, we had an ex chart topping act though a couple of months back wanting 8 mixes on 12 monitors. The stage is very small, they ended up with 4 wedge mixes on 4 wedges and an ear mix. They specced Digico, Midas pro 6, Avid venue or S6l, show went off on a QU 32. Good show, sounded good and they were happy. Even if you have exactly what they ask for on the rider, it’s good practice to ring and check, then, confirm what’s agreed on an email to cover your arse!
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Most things are negotiable, for example, I’m doing cover for a local venue with a small stage, we had an ex chart topping act though a couple of months back wanting 8 mixes on 12 monitors. The stage is very small, they ended up with 4 wedge mixes on 4 wedges and an ear mix. They specced Digico, Midas pro 6, Avid venue or S6l, show went off on a QU 32. Good show, sounded good and they were happy. Even if you have exactly what they ask for on the rider, it’s good practice to ring and check, then, confirm what’s agreed on an email to cover your arse!
That is a good point if you are doing a smaller venue, sometimes when you ask for a rider you are getting a pdf of their standard(only) touring/festival rider meant for 60 foot+ outdoor stages. I was doing sound for a 350 cap club with a known touring act and got forwarded their standard festival rider. Called the promoter and told them that the listed equipment wouldn't physically fit on the stage (8 mixes on 12 monitors + sidefills on a 20 foot wide stage, just like Roland said), they gave me the tour managers phone # and the tour manager said whatever you think is appropriate for the venue we will work with. 4 wedges and everything went smooth. Call and work out the details. Almost everyone you work with wants to make it work otherwise they never would have booked in the first place.
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I have received the standard "tour" rider for 200 seat clubs many times. One was for a female "name you have hear of" with an 11 piece touring band. It stated that the four lighting trusses needed to be flown at 35' and the stage house needed 50' of clearance above the stage. The stage required was larger than the club. A 64 channel mixer was the minimum size for house and monitors. I could go on and on.
She showed up with her guitar, a friend with another acoustic, and a keyboard player. The stage was 12' X 16' with 9' of clearance over the stage. They used 6 inputs!
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I always talk directly with the technical person from the band. I have found that the Promoter only wants to be assured that everything has been worked out with the talent or that we will need to bring in additional equipment and it is going to cost x amount. At that point, the Promoter can decide if they want to incur any additional cost or not.
Bill
^^^ THIS ^^^ - if extra expense is required, then contact the promoter.
I recently had to address a tech rider for a fly gig for an LA tribute band coming for a local Texas festival as the Sat night headliner. Why they were chosen when we have 2 local "tributes" available, idk.
We called them a number of times to confirm backline needs as we had to rent locally and coordinate pickup on Friday and return Monday. We had bands going on Friday, so logistics were a challenge.
They required a Korg Kronos keyboard - a $4500 arranger/synth that runs around $600 to rent.
We got it. The Sat night event was rained out, so we moved everything to a TINY indoor venue at short notice.
The band shows up for sound check and I'm helping the keyboardist set up. The Kronos was not on the default screen so I was asked if "I knew how to get it back to it?" I said "no, but your tech rider said you needed this unit." "Oh no" she goes "that's the other guy! i don't know anything about how to use this unit".
She pulls out a MIDI cable and a external sound unit and used the Kronos as a MIDI controller !! /SMH Seriously!! >:( ???
I plugged the external unit into the PA.
This was after NUMEROUS conversations with the BL !!
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I did a DJ event for a prep school.
They had a DJ coming up to NH from NYC.
The rider required 2 wireless hand held mics. I provide and billed.
When he arrived we hooked up the stuff he traveled with and I asked about sound checking the mics.
He said he didn’t need them. I put a wired SM58 on a desk stand near him.
He didn’t say a work through the PA all night.
Sigh...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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I did a DJ event for a prep school.
They had a DJ coming up to NH from NYC.
The rider required 2 wireless hand held mics. I provide and billed.
When he arrived we hooked up the stuff he traveled with and I asked about sound checking the mics.
He said he didn’t need them. I put a wired SM58 on a desk stand near him.
He didn’t say a work through the PA all night.
Sigh...
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
I try to deliver on spec according to a rider. And I charge for it too, even if it's left unused. For a DJ-set I don't call management and ask if the rider is current. For a DJ in a club it's often not much in the riders I receive, like how can you not have a correct rider if the rider is a few decks, mixer and a wireless? Especially annoying if I had to toss a few other jobs around which are not rider-jobs to meet the rider in this particular job. I guess the joke is somewhat on me because of not reaching out to the management or artist themselves beforehand, but you send a rider. It's small, make sure it's correct. Is it really necessary to contact the artist themselves, that's why they have a management.
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The Kronos was not on the default screen so I was asked if "I knew how to get it back to it?" I said "no, but your tech rider said you needed this unit." "Oh no" she goes "that's the other guy! i don't know anything about how to use this unit".
She pulls out a MIDI cable and a external sound unit and used the Kronos as a MIDI controller !! /SMH Seriously!! >:( ???
I plugged the external unit into the PA.
This was after NUMEROUS conversations with the BL !!
They don't care. If the band leader didn't blow you off outright he was more polite than most.
I've hired in, at great cost, various Special Magic Boxen that are ESSENTIAL to the show, only to have the band's mixerperson blink eyes and ask "what's that?" On one show several years ago the FedEx and rental fees almost double the cost of audio to the promoter, who was understandably unhappy that these precious and required devices went unused (for the most part). Do you think anyone connected with the band gave a shit about this? Nope, not a single person, whether performer, leader, agent or manager gave a flying fuck.
I now encourage promoters to cross out these special requests. One goes so far as to rubber stamp each page of the rider, and over the signatures, the sentence "MUST use provided sound & lights." The agents sign it and when the band wanks over what was provided the promoter points to what the agent agreed to.
They can play the show and sell their merch or they can load the trailer and leave. So far, they've all played their shows.
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They don't care. If the band leader didn't blow you off outright he was more polite than most.
I've hired in, at great cost, various Special Magic Boxen that are ESSENTIAL to the show, only to have the band's mixerperson blink eyes and ask "what's that?"
I've rented in special gear-effects in particular, and have the FOH guy ask me how to use them.
I don't know, YOU requested it. I know how to use MY effects, but YOU should know how to use the ones YOU said you MUST have.
And then they get mad at you for not being able to read their minds, when THEY would not return your calls.
Oh well-it makes for a bunch of interesting stories.
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The worst one that I have had and I know this is a swerve from the topic was as follows. We have to have a Digico SD7 according to the TM. We went over this in 6 conversation including 2 days before the show. We rented one from a National House. We got to the show and I asked the FoH engineer 'What makes this board so special?' He say nothing, what kind of shop do you run. I answered Midas Pro. He said do you have a Pro 2 or Pro X. I told him that we had a Pro 2 and he said that it would have been great to use. We would have charged the client $500 for the Pro 2 with snake. However, because I couldn't get past the TM we had to rent the SD7 for $3,500 plus travel to Chicago and back on two day. We could have saved the client $3,750 if we could have talked to the right person.
Bill
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Thanks for all the replies and the various suggestions. I'm glad the question sparked some interesting conversations and I hope they continue.
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The most ridiculous I ran across was for a fly-in date.
We provided the system and backline. The artist and band was from Iran.
(This was a year before the Gulf War...)
Everything was "reasonable" except for 3 FX processors they "Had to have"
They were "rare" to say the least. No luck tracking them down in town.
So I talked to the promoter, and yup, they needed to be there. I got ahold of the provider at the stop before Montreal, and arranged to fed-ex the processors to us, and we'd pay the extra rental and ship back to the rental house.
Show day comes, and at soundcheck, I ask the "artist" how he want's the processors set up. "I don't care, just give me a heavy reverb in my monitor, and do what you want in the house."
Wow. I had DSP-16, DSP-128, and a Yammi SPX90 that could have worked quite nicely, and save 400 bucks to boot.
As pretty much everyone else has seen, "WE NEED that new mixer from XYZ", and the traveling FOH dude can't even hook it up, never mind make a show...
We've cleared the board. Where's your show file?
"Huh?"
Chris.
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I got a rider for city festival today with an SPX90, a SPX990 and a SDE3000.
Obviously not updated this century.
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I got a rider for city festival today with an SPX90, a SPX990 and a SDE3000.
Obviously not updated this century.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
i'd be fine with those. Well, not the 90. those were icky. but i've done a few [hundred] shows using the other two...
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i'd be fine with those. Well, not the 90. those were icky. but i've done a few [hundred] shows using the other two...
I used to own some of those. They went away when I went digital. You still own SPX900s?
Today, most modern desks have pretty good FX. At the level I work at, I don’t plan to patch rented analog outboard gear as no one would pay for it.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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I used to own some of those. They went away when I went digital. You still own SPX900s?
Today, most modern desks have pretty good FX. At the level I work at, I don’t plan to patch rented analog outboard gear as no one would pay for it.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Own? Nope. Seen in the wild in the last decade? Also Nope. :)
I meant that i had done a bunch of shows with them "back in da day"... That being said, i'm not addicted to using piles of FX just because the desks all have them now. I'm ol' skool enough to still think that if you can't get it to sound good with 2 verbs and a delay, there's something else wrong besides "not enough FX". I see WAY too many plugins piled on to mixes nowadays just because you can....
Oh, and for clarity, the SPX900 was also icky. :) I quite liked the SPX 990 though.
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I got a rider for city festival today with an SPX90, a SPX990 and a SDE3000.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Hey man, it’s part of our SOUND!! If you’re not hip to our “retro-ness” that’s probably why you’re JUST the soundman... (sigh)
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Hey man, it’s part of our SOUND!! If you’re not hip to our “retro-ness” that’s probably why you’re JUST the soundman... (sigh)
"Vintage Digital."
LMFBO.
I can't wait to see the return of the Yomama DMP7 for that real retro sound.
8)
Cheers,
Tim
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"Vintage Digital."
LMFBO.
I can't wait to see the return of the Yomama DMP7 for that real retro sound.
8)
Cheers,
Tim
I've got a "classic" trio sitting around somewhere.
Yammi MC-2404, 1204, and 1608.....
They served me very well, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.... 8)
Chris.
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I see lots of bashing of TM/BE/Management on this thread, which I get as there are many times where communication is poor and unnecessary items are rented or provided and not needed or understood, and it's a wast of time and money, not to mention super frustrating. And old documents....yes that is beyond annoying.
However, it is equally as frustrating to be on a tour and send out up to date documents, be chasing a provider or local promoter and be promised things you need for a show only to get there and not see them.
Many people struggle with this communication and obviously $ and the bottom line is a factor but more often than not when communication is done properly everyone will be happy, even if compromises are to be made on both sides.
JF
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Many people struggle with this communication and obviously $ and the bottom line is a factor but more often than not when communication is done properly everyone will be happy, even if compromises are to be made on both sides.
JF
Compromises are to be expected.
B U T
It's only a compromise if both sides agree to it. Not when one hides in the woods, and says "Hey, you'll take what I give you"
That happens all too often.
Chris.
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I used to own some of those. They went away when I went digital. You still own SPX900s?
Today, most modern desks have pretty good FX. At the level I work at, I don’t plan to patch rented analog outboard gear as no one would pay for it.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
I've got at least one SPX90 in my basement. I loved them for my guitar rig back in the day, so I hold on to it for nostalgic reasons.
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I've got at least one SPX90 in my basement. I loved them for my guitar rig back in the day, so I hold on to it for nostalgic reasons.
full disclosure... i used a REX50 [basically a desk top SPX90] for a few years as my main guitar processor. Still love the Symphonic chorus sound...
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I see lots of bashing of TM/BE/Management on this thread, which I get as there are many times where communication is poor and unnecessary items are rented or provided and not needed or understood, and it's a wast of time and money, not to mention super frustrating. And old documents....yes that is beyond annoying.
However, it is equally as frustrating to be on a tour and send out up to date documents, be chasing a provider or local promoter and be promised things you need for a show only to get there and not see them.
Many people struggle with this communication and obviously $ and the bottom line is a factor but more often than not when communication is done properly everyone will be happy, even if compromises are to be made on both sides.
JF
Hi John-
The requests for something off the wall don't come like they did in the Ye Olde Analogue Dayz but they still happen. The difference is that most of the time the item is genuinely needed and the touring person is happy to see it.
There is terrible communication between agents and the tour. I suspect it's partly because agents do silly things and don't like to be told so...
A decent advance call can make most of the unnecessary rentals go away; unfortunately some promoters make it difficult to contact the appropriate tour personnel because the promoter is afraid the production costs will go up. In this model everyone looses, and that's not the way to put on a show.
Safe travels to you. :)
Tim Mc
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There is terrible communication between agents and the tour. I suspect it's partly because agents do silly things and don't like to be told so...
A decent advance call can make most of the unnecessary rentals go away; unfortunately some promoters make it difficult to contact the appropriate tour personnel because the promoter is afraid the production costs will go up. In this model everyone looses, and that's not the way to put on a show.
Tim Mc
Most promoters in my area fwd the rider sent by the management company and / or TM and fully expect me to contact TM with questions which are usually unanswerable by the promoter.
And do not forget that Page One of the TM Handbooks clearly states: "NEVER, EVER, under any circumstances will you provide an accurate Tech Rider to the Production Company".
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Most promoters in my area fwd the rider sent by the management company and / or TM and fully expect me to contact TM with questions which are usually unanswerable by the promoter.
And do not forget that Page One of the TM Handbooks clearly states: "NEVER, EVER, under any circumstances will you provide an accurate Tech Rider to the Production Company".
Until you find out the one that was letter accurate is the one the venue manager signed without reading.
Yeah it says you agreed to provide 200 amps 3 phase, so I guess you are looking last minute to rent a generator.
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A venue I work with quite frequently is starting to get more B and C level nationals. One of the ones they are currently working on, the artists management won't even open or consider their offer until I provide my tech specs to them. I have the ability, as we all do, to be able to meet any rider if given the requirements.
Is this a common occurrence?
For all the past shows I've done, I've always been given a copy of their rider and negotiated back and forth. And it's never been a problem.
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A venue I work with quite frequently is starting to get more B and C level nationals. One of the ones they are currently working on, the artists management won't even open or consider their offer until I provide my tech specs to them. I have the ability, as we all do, to be able to meet any rider if given the requirements.
Is this a common occurrence?
For all the past shows I've done, I've always been given a copy of their rider and negotiated back and forth. And it's never been a problem.
No. They should provide a rider which either you can or can’t meet. At that point it’s usually a call to the band engineer to find out what they can and will accept, (usually a lot less than on the rider). I’ve heard of some people being difficult about it, but more often than not much can be negotiated. Ultimately everyone wants the show to go ahead because it’s money and everyone wants to earn. 😁
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One of the ones they are currently working on, the artists management won't even open or consider their offer until I provide my tech specs to them.
Is this a common occurrence?
And I wonder why more venues don't have their Tech Specs posted online, so a determination can be made early in the process as to what, if anything, might need to be supplemented?
Is this secret stuff? Fear of inadequacy? A line can always be added to the effect of "full line of supplementary gear available upon request...".
Dave
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I keep an up to date list of gear I have on property with weblinks for my Danley speakers. After I get the bands rider, I email that to the BE. He then knows what we have and can email me any questions and if I'll need to rent any gear for him. Occasionally it's for a FOH/monitor desk upgrade. X32's are beneath some people.
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A venue I work with quite frequently is starting to get more B and C level nationals. One of the ones they are currently working on, the artists management won't even open or consider their offer until I provide my tech specs to them. I have the ability, as we all do, to be able to meet any rider if given the requirements.
Is this a common occurrence?
For all the past shows I've done, I've always been given a copy of their rider and negotiated back and forth. And it's never been a problem.
The entertainment buyer should insist on an appropriate rider as part of artist management's offer. No consideration of booking the act without it, no deal memo initialed.
That said, I suspect the artist (or the production manager or mixerperson) has been burned several times in different ways - a polite way of saying they were lied to and resulted in uncomfortable conversations with the band, management, or both.
Something not in your favor is that your venue doesn't have current "road cred" for presenting higher levels of performers. Until there is track record of production success there will be more scrutiny.
Have fun, good luck.
Tim Mc
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And I wonder why more venues don't have their Tech Specs posted online, so a determination can be made early in the process as to what, if anything, might need to be supplemented?
Is this secret stuff? Fear of inadequacy? A line can always be added to the effect of "full line of supplementary gear available upon request...".
Dave
One of our venues has their tech info on line, another sends it via email. Neither are 100% correct and they were updated less than 45 days ago, kind of like band riders but fresher. ::)
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Something not in your favor is that your venue doesn't have current "road cred" for presenting higher levels of performers. Until there is track record of production success there will be more scrutiny.
So true Tim. it is definitely a smaller venue, mainly getting Wednesday and Thursday route through shows. With the amount of shows they want to do (not many) I think this will be a neverending battle.