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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => The Basement => Topic started by: Micheal Schriner on February 15, 2015, 08:03:46 PM
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CBS has Peavey on undercover boss right now.
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CBS has Peavey on undercover boss right now.
I need to watch more movies, or television, or whatever. Cos I've no idea what you are referring to. lol.
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I've asked my wife to record it for me. Should be interesting.
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I've asked my wife to record it for me. Should be interesting.
I was walking by the TV and saw a microphone clip that was not secured to the stand. It flopped inverted while the singer was sound checking. They cut to the Peavey guy who said we need to work on the quality of our gear. This could be a train wreck PR wise so I did hit the DVR. I am going to watch it later tonight.
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<snip> ...saw a microphone clip that was not secured to the stand. It flopped inverted while the singer was sound checking.
A few years ago I saw this exact same thing happen to Paul Shaffer in the middle of a show, while talking to David. He tried to hide his emotion, but he got a pissed-off expression on his face (I know that look!) and fixed the mic. I suspect that a policy was put in place after that (LocTite, maybe?). It's not like I haven't seen a mic flop over like that before, just not on a high-profile show like The Late Show.
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I watched the show and the microphone slip was far from biggest faux pas, IMO.
Clearly not a scripted show....
JR
PS I used to have an office in plant 3 back in the '80s. The closest thing to rush hour in Meridian used to be when Plant 3 let out. But that was years ago.
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Read the transcript of the show. Not good for Peavey.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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No it painted Harley and the COO as headless and clueless. After giving some money to a couple of employees as charity they ended up closing the plant and those folks were changed to shift work. HR did the layoff Harley and the COO didn't show. They showed the speaker assembly line. Air nailing MI grade pressboard cabinets together was also a less than flattering scene. I was shocked at how bad Peavey was presented.
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Agreed. PR nightmare, and Hartley should be ashamed.
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I found the episode on the CBS website but it won't let me watch it from here. Does anyone know of another site I could wtch it from?
Steve.
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I found the episode on the CBS website but it won't let me watch it from here. Does anyone know of another site I could wtch it from?
Steve.
Steve - I'm watching it on YouTube right now. Search "Undercover Boss Peavey" and find a 42min result. Works fine on my UK 1st gen iPad!
The rest of the results (mostly 50+ mins) are just dodgy links to streaming. PM me if you can't find the working version.
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Agreed. PR nightmare, and Hartley should be ashamed.
I know a rep that was hired away from a good regional rep firm to work for Peavey factory direct. He left after being there only a short time because, in his words, "they are now only an importer". That's a shame.
Lee
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Steve - I'm watching it on YouTube right now. Search "Undercover Boss Peavey" and find a 42min result.
Found it (eventually). Thanks.
Steve.
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I saw it too. Was Harman a sponsor?
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Found it (eventually). Thanks.
Steve.
Glad to be of help. I spent so long trying to find a working link, I ended up only able to watch up to the farcical gig in the shop at first. Thankfully it's now still working.
I didn't see anywhere that explained what excuse they used for the cameras to follow him, after they moved on to the factory floor - did I miss something, or would regular viewers know the type of techniques used to explain their presence to the unwitting staff members?
Obviously staff knowing they're being filmed changes their behaviour, though it didn't stop them blaming the Peavey mic, when the issues with the gig seemed more to do with poor technique.
As per previous comments - from what I saw so far, it doesn't do Peavey any favours from a PR perspective. I guess it was quite ballsy to risk doing the show in the first place, so credit where it's due!
I would love to see Uli Behringer do the same at "Behringer City" - but after the recent Panorama Apple exposé, that's probably unlikely. It would be funny to see footage from the console department, where in the background a big counter ticks over to 1,000,001 and a huge cheer goes up ;)
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Can anyone tell me what a Peavey Media Matrix is? That's what that gal was testing. I've never heard of it.
It looked like she was assembling the boards in a chassis, testing them, and then disassembling them and putting them in a plastic sealer on a rolling rack. The whole process looked horribly inefficient, and Hartley's CEO son-in-law seemed to have no clue as to what they were even doing.
If Hartley thought this would be good promo for his company he was horribly mistaken.
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Can anyone tell me what a Peavey Media Matrix is? That's what that gal was testing. I've never heard of it.
It looked like she was assembling the boards in a chassis, testing them, and then disassembling them and putting them in a plastic sealer on a rolling rack. The whole process looked horribly inefficient, and Hartley's CEO son-in-law seemed to have no clue as to what they were even doing.
If Hartley thought this would be good promo for his company he was horribly mistaken.
Networked Audio Control System Looked to be this.
http://www.peaveycommercialaudio.com/products.cfm/mm/Audio-Networking/CAB-Series/CAB-4n-CM2
I don't think even Radio Shack could have blown it this much.
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If Hartley thought this would be good promo for his company he was horribly mistaken.
Definitely a big mistake to agree to making the programme when business is not good.
Steve.
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It was brutally hard to watch, made the whole organization look like tools.
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Can anyone tell me what a Peavey Media Matrix is? That's what that gal was testing. I've never heard of it.
Yup that was probably a BOB (break out box) for the computerized sound system controller. One of the few products that makes sense to assemble in the US. The install customers need timely delivery and the SKUs are not low cost.
That was not an entry level job (IMO). and the board that he fried while testing was probably worth more than a days pay if he was an actual employee.
She seemed competent but even she didn't know what it was.
It looked like she was assembling the boards in a chassis, testing them, and then disassembling them and putting them in a plastic sealer on a rolling rack. The whole process looked horribly inefficient, and Hartley's CEO son-in-law seemed to have no clue as to what they were even doing.
Those were anti-static bags and you could see the anti-static strap on Cortlands arm. That is the proper way to handle them. Those boards were probably fabricated outside and needed to be tested before final assembly or perhaps for sale as repair parts.
If Hartley thought this would be good promo for his company he was horribly mistaken.
They say there's no such thing as bad publicity but I think that show might qualify.
Ironically perhaps this doesn't reflect Peavey's business success. How many large scale US manufacturing operations are there left in the MI sound business? But why showcase that very unpopular reality on national TV? The workers are not idiots so have seen this play out in slow motion over the last couple decades.
This wouldn't be news if it didn't happen to Peavey on national TV. Can't put that one back inside the bottle.
JR
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I was less than impressed with the fallaparticle board cabinets Jon. I seem to remember pine being used in the old days gone by. Maybe not for everything, but for most. I tend to think now that I've defended Hartley a little too long now. What a shame.
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I was less than impressed with the fallaparticle board cabinets Jon. I seem to remember pine being used in the old days gone by. Maybe not for everything, but for most. I tend to think now that I've defended Hartley a little too long now. What a shame.
Yep, while I was glad that they're throw-away spec was pretty good (1/32"), what does it matter if the cab is particle board?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I've only owned 1 peice of Peavey gear. A huge 9 channel mixer with huge rotary volume knobs. That was the 70's. I don't miss it.
I only see Peavey with country and bluegrass acts up here (Canada). Is that the case south of this border?
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It was enough of a train wreck that CBS released a statement.
http://www.cbs.com/shows/undercover_boss/news/1003833/
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I felt really bad for the poor guy who had been offered a better paid position elsewhere and Gray asked him to stay. He did so in part it seemed out of loyalty - then lost his job when they closed the plant.
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I was less than impressed with the fallaparticle board cabinets Jon. I seem to remember pine being used in the old days gone by. Maybe not for everything, but for most. I tend to think now that I've defended Hartley a little too long now. What a shame.
Considering the quality of raw lumber nowadays, particle board isn't a bad option if you can't afford to use 13 ply marine grade Baltic birch. The particle board is also more dense and of greater consistency than raw lumber. It is also less likely to warp. Just keep it out of the rain , high humidity, and Insane Clown Posse shows.
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Considering the quality of raw lumber nowadays, particle board isn't a bad option if you can't afford to use 13 ply marine grade Baltic birch. The particle board is also more dense and of greater consistency than raw lumber. It is also less likely to warp. Just keep it out of the rain , high humidity, and Insane Clown Posse shows.
Certainly the statements you make are true of MDF, is it also true of basic particle board? I know what you mean about the quality of dimensional lumber. Especially when you have to grab it at the big box stores.
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Particle board, and especially MDF rely on the fasteners more than the glue. It's quite easy to tear apart an MDF joint, as the material fails right below the depth that the glue soaked in to. Particle board isn't much better. And neither can take a panel blow like plywood.
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About 22 minutes in: "Everything has spun out of control as a general lack of communication."
That is the million dollar phrase, right there. Address the communication issue, and things can begin coming back together. Fail to address that, and there's no hope.
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Peavey released a statement
http://peavey.com/news/article.cfm/action/view/id/816/cat/2/article.cfm
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Peavey released a statement
http://peavey.com/news/article.cfm/action/view/id/816/cat/2/article.cfm
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About 22 minutes in: "Everything has spun out of control as a general lack of communication."
That is the million dollar phrase, right there. Address the communication issue, and things can begin coming back together. Fail to address that, and there's no hope.
I beg to disagree. Unless communication means something different than I understand it to mean. If you have an unwelcome message (like number of employees is shrinking) there is no good way to deliver that message. More a matter of employee relations a variant on public relations both areas where Peavey appears weak. The ugly news needs to be sugar coated and carefully crafted.
Even though it is no fault of management or the employees, I blame the customers who so warmly embraced offshore built products. Trust me I was in those trenches when the early shots were fired and watched gung-ho dealers beg to keep manufacturing in the US while their own customers were buying offshore products from competitors. Peavey did not want to go offshore, but had no choice.
300 employees is a small fraction of peak employment while I was working there, but more than an import operation as some have suggested. However only a small fraction of Peavey's value product portfolio make sense to build here. Peavey sells world-wide and there is no way to be price competitive building stuff here. The US dollar has appreciated 10% in just the last few months. Not a good time for US exporters.
As I've already posted Media-matrix makes sense, and some American made guitars make sense. I suspect there will be some other big ticket, low volume SKUs, but Peavey is not a big ticket company so I don't expect a lot of those.
I honestly have no idea why they were still making cheap PA cabinets in Meridian. In my recollection it was cheaper to bring those in from China decades ago. Perhaps that was a matter of pride, trying to make a last stand made-in-USA SKU on an extremely mature and efficient production line (the wood shop kicked ass). Please don't be shocked that Peavey also sells some cheap entry level speakers. Who do think Peavey's customers are?
Employees, like that lady who was over the PCB testing area and who worked there for 25 years has seen many co-workers get laid off. Far more than still remain, so it is understandable she has a foreboding attitude about the future. That is just common sense and she didn't sound like an idiot.
For communication between management and employees, let me share one of my old Peavey anecdotes from during my time there that may be instructive. I was always visiting the factory floor and generally open about sharing future plans so factory management would not be surprised by future changes and have some ownership in the whole process. With Peavey's mature product line it is not unusual to have a product refresh every 5-6 years and I was working on a next generation small mixer line, probably a year away from hitting the production floor while the current mixer line was still selling well. The minute I mentioned to that factory manager that the mixers were scheduled for ultimate replacement they became relegated to his lowest priority. Almost literally from that mention, those mixers were in perpetual back-order and the factory failed to meet every production schedule for just those SKUs. I can't count how many dollars we lost in un-filled orders for those mixers that were selling strong at the time. By being in constant back order for almost a year, we gave away market share to our competition since the customers were not going to wait months for a commodity mixer. Arghhh in hindsight I really wish I was less honest with that factory manager. He was managing his personal pain. Why invest effort into an orphan SKU. He believed he was doing the right thing, ignoring my pleading, but it was the wrong thing for the good of the company.
To bring this back on topic, being a little too honest with employees during the last couple decades of globalization would just chase off even more of the best and brightest from the factory. I appreciate that this may not sound warm and fuzzy to readers, but it is business reality during this transition to offshore manufacturing. Peavey customers do not buy those products because they are made in MS, never did and never will. They buy them because they are cheap and do the job.
I continue to question what was Peavey thinking to bring in that reality show at this stage of Peavey's corporate evolution. Looking toward the future, Media matrix remaining built in the US is logical and the Hollywood office makes even more sense for brand management in this post "mom and pop" distribution world. I still don't understand the low end speaker line segment, and perhaps it was difficult to find a work area in Meridian that wouldn't recognize Cortland (and that one did recognize him). It looks like they tried to focus on future growth areas, but following the show format dragged the story in an unfortunate lay-off centered direction.
Again I am not defending Peavey. They deserve all the bad press they incurred for mishandling this huge marketing opportunity, You can't buy TV publicity like that, but they will be paying for it for years.
JR
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I'm not defending Peavey nor the workers... just an observation...
A big dissolution among the people of the US is that most (not all!) believe in equal results, not equal opportunity. It's too bad those plant workers lost their jobs, but it's not Peavey's responsibility to provide their workers with a living... it's the responsibility of the workers.
Having worked for several small companies (in the past) and having their doors close, I realized the responsibility of my "well-being" is on my shoulders, not my employer's. Peavey is doing exactly what they need to do to save the company. It is a shame when people lose their jobs, but as they say, "it''s nothing personal, it's only business."
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I appreciate your input John - especially because you used to work for the company.
My biggest question about the Media Matrix segment was why after basically assembling the circuit boards in one, she took them back out and put them away. Why wasn't she doing the final assembly right there?
There may be a logical explanation, but what she was doing looked crazy in the show.
Just a little personal experience with Peavey products - after some input from this forum (including you John) I bought an IPR2-7500DSP power amp about six months ago. It's been running subs five nights a week ever since with no issues whatsoever, and sounds great. While certainly not cheap, it is a good value.
I think that's the direction that would work for Peavey going forward. Don't make everything under the sun. Find products that they do well no matter what the price point, and concentrate on that.
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Peavey is doing exactly what they need to do to save the company. It is a shame when people lose their jobs, but as they say, "it''s nothing personal, it's only business."
I agree. However disappointing it might be to reduce the workforce, not doing it would probably result in no company at all.
I assume Peavey is still privately owned. Back in 1984 I wrote to Hartley as part of a college project about company shares. He replied with a lot of useful information but told me that Peavey had no public ownership.
I think that's the direction that would work for Peavey going forward. Don't make everything under the sun. Find products that they do well no matter what the price point, and concentrate on that.
I agree with that too. When everyone else can make the same 'everything under the sun' products cheaper than you can, it's time to think about making something else. There's no future in being a 'me too' company.
Steve.
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I have owned very few Peavey products over the years - not because I chose not to but it has just worked out that way. However, 2 of them come to mind. Hubby owned a Peavey bass combo with Black Widow 15" many years ago in the UK and he loved it. It was driven hard till he finally sold it .
I now own a PV14 mixer as my little analog back-up and I love it also. It is built like a tank, has decent FX and works like a champ.
I hear the IPR range of amps is very good.
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I appreciate your input John - especially because you used to work for the company.
My biggest question about the Media Matrix segment was why after basically assembling the circuit boards in one, she took them back out and put them away. Why wasn't she doing the final assembly right there?
I'm pretty sure she said they were testing the boards... I suspect these boards were either assembled by a contract manufacturer or by Peavey in a large batch, while the final products are probably assembled to order as needed. So it is prudent to test the PCB in advance of using them to identify any that need rework or larger manufacturing problems. Creating a stock of known good PCBs.
The absence of a dedicated test fixture suggests to me that this is probably a pretty low volume SKU. Back while I was working there Peavey had a several person ATE (automatic test equipment) group working full time to support manufacturing in the several factories.
It is probably not a coincidence that Peavey decided to highlight Media Matrix in a segment, and Cortland played his part as a bumbling high level executive. No doubt trying to make the workers look good by comparison.
The real surprise is asking a 25 year veteran employee those particular questions and expecting good answers.
There may be a logical explanation, but what she was doing looked crazy in the show.
They could have explained it better. It looked normal to me, but I am familiar with manufacturing.
Just a little personal experience with Peavey products - after some input from this forum (including you John) I bought an IPR2-7500DSP power amp about six months ago. It's been running subs five nights a week ever since with no issues whatsoever, and sounds great. While certainly not cheap, it is a good value.
I think that's the direction that would work for Peavey going forward. Don't make everything under the sun. Find products that they do well no matter what the price point, and concentrate on that.
I saw nothing in that show that suggested they weren't already doing that, ignoring the low end pa cabinet that I still can't explain, other than going for a good visual with a smooth running production line. If he was trying to find a company work area where he wouldn't be recognized that was a failure too.
JR
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Personally, I found the leadership at Peavey, especially Hartley, to be aloof and more concerned about 'fixing' perception and image than actually fixing problems.
The Peavey I used to know and love is nearly gone, run into to the ground by a self-deluded herd of dinosaurs irrevocably out of step with their customers.
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I beg to disagree. Unless communication means something different than I understand it to mean. If you have an unwelcome message (like number of employees is shrinking) there is no good way to deliver that message. More a matter of employee relations a variant on public relations both areas where Peavey appears weak. The ugly news needs to be sugar coated and carefully crafted.
I understand the need to carefully craft communications; you don't want your best employees to jump ship because that will only sink you faster. What I gathered is that there were too many surprises: management flinging decisions upon production without warning. Employees treated as automatons getting orders rather than being given a voice in improving the situation. Of course, that requires being honest with your employees, and some will jump ship anyway. Letting your employees know the state of things and seeking their input -- honestly, not under the cloak of a show like "undercover boss" -- can be beneficial. The employees featured on the show kind of implied that management failed to seek their input. Twenty-five years is a huge investment by the employee in the company; to ignore their input is a waste of their knowledge and talent. Yes, you should carefully craft your communications, but sugar-coating will come across as lying and that destroys trust.
I don't know about a medium-sized manufacturer like Peavey, but in most small businesses the owner bears the greatest risk. Sure, when times are good, the owner rakes in the dough. But when times are tough, they are the first to take a pay cut. I know of several small business owners who were in that very situation through the recent boom and the bust: when the real estate market was on a rocketship to the moon, they were raking in huge amounts of money. Then when it tanked, they were living off of their savings, even paying their employees out of their personal savings accounts, in order to keep the business alive in hopes of hanging on until recovery. Some failed. Some held on, but I would say very few flourished during that time. Most are now able to balance their books, but barely: they still are trying to recover their businesses to the point where they and their employees can once again see growth and get back their savings and their perks & benefits.
I think the growth of overseas manufacturing is not only due to labor costs, but labor in combination with transportation. Even at $3.00/gallon for fuel in the last few years, when compared to paychecks it is still cheaper than fuel in the 70's when it was a few dimes/gallon. That means that the manufacturing plus shipping from overseas has been less than the cost of manufacturing here. When fuel prices were nearing their peak, pushing $4/gallon, there was some hope that it, combined with increased demand for benefits by foreign labor, would make it cost effective to reshore production. With the recent drop closer to $2, it kind of puts that hope on hold. (Of course, overseas shipping uses forms of fuel other than gasoline or diesel, but using gasoline and diesel as the example makes it more understandable to most readers, and there is a correlation between gasoline and bunker fuel prices.)
Another significant factor is automation. If you're going to make a machine do a job once done by a human, it's often cheaper to build a whole new factory rather than retool existing factory space that isn't laid out optimally for machines. And were you to retool an existing factory, you might have to stop production for several months, and that would HURT. If you're going to build a new factory, when you consider that %25-50 of the cost can be in environmental remediation, government-mandated infrastructure improvements, and various paperwork to meet myriad regulations (in addition to debt service) -- things that do absolutely nothing to produce revenue -- it gets mighty attractive to build that factory in a country where you can just build it.
So in Peavey's case, the competition built their factories overseas and they didn't. They were able to hang on for a while, and we can credit dedicated, efficient employees (and possibly low debt, but I don't know) for that, but the writing was on the wall: because of factors of labor, transportation, and regulations there was no way they could compete with onshore production. Like the small business owner, rather than making radical changes they opted to stay the course hoping that things would recover. Economic reality is finally catching up with them.
When it makes economic sense to build automated factories in the US, it will happen. Just remember that our current regulatory environment requires expenses that have no return on investment.
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Personally, I found the leadership at Peavey, especially Hartley, to be aloof and more concerned about 'fixing' perception and image than actually fixing problems.
Huh ?? Peavey's main problem at the moment is exactly the "perception". If Hartley was more concerned about that he might not have done the show, or managed the outcome better..
The Peavey I used to know and love is nearly gone, run into to the ground by a self-deluded herd of dinosaurs irrevocably out of step with their customers.
That's not very kind.
I actually know the man and won't go there.
JR
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Huh ?? Peavey's main problem at the moment is exactly the "perception". If Hartley was more concerned about that he might not have done the show, or managed the outcome better.. That's not very kind.
I actually know the man and won't go there.
JR
I have not spent much time with Hartley-but did have a VERY ENJOYABLE hour or so in my office talking about my "wall of amps" and amplifier history. I had a BLAST :)
It was one of two "personal time spent with giants" that have left a permanent impression (and knowledge gained) on me for life.
From the rest of my visit with Hartley-I got the impression that he is a very REAL person-who cares about his company and the people who work for him-and was concerned about keeping jobs for US/local people if at all possible.
He takes the company very personally. He built it from nothing as an engineer-not a business person.
My impression could be wrong-but I got the impression that he genuinely cares about the people who work for him.
This is not always the way it appears from the outside-especially on an edited TV program.
Obviously I don't have very much experience with him (as you do), but I do have great respect for him and what he has done. Be it right or wrong.
BTW-during my visit I asked a question that got him a bit "upset".
I asked what the story with Earth amps was (and showed him catalogs that I had of both Earth and Peavey products from the 70s and compared them) and he told me.
I won't print what he said about the owner of Earth (not pretty). But it did answer a question I had been wondering about for a couple of decades.
It is real easy to "armchair quarterback" business practices, but often the real story is different.
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I understand the need to carefully craft communications; you don't want your best employees to jump ship because that will only sink you faster. What I gathered is that there were too many surprises: management flinging decisions upon production without warning. Employees treated as automatons getting orders rather than being given a voice in improving the situation. Of course, that requires being honest with your employees, and some will jump ship anyway. Letting your employees know the state of things and seeking their input -- honestly, not under the cloak of a show like "undercover boss" -- can be beneficial. The employees featured on the show kind of implied that management failed to seek their input.
In case you haven't been paying attention, globalization has dramatically changed the manufacturing calculus over several decades. First it was japan being the low cost manufacturer 70s-80s (I literally went to Peavey to defend US manufacturing against the Japanese who had already spanked the the domestic consumer audio business). Then Taiwan and So. Korea out-cheaped Japan. Finally China out-cheaped the other Pac Rim Tigers. The US was playing the cheapest game a few hundred years ago when all we had to do was be cheaper than Europe. By the time I left Peavey they were sending me to China to work with contract manufacturers as partners.
Twenty-five years is a huge investment by the employee in the company; to ignore their input is a waste of their knowledge and talent. Yes, you should carefully craft your communications, but sugar-coating will come across as lying and that destroys trust.
I already posted one anecdote about me being too honest with a factory manager (and that was a manager). I could tell you stories about suggestions I've received from line workers, but it does make them feel better if you look like you are listening to them and promise to think about it. More often then not, by walking around the factory I would catch and stop them from doing pretty stupid stuff. One time i caught line workers hammering knobs onto tight pot shafts with the heavy handle end of the tool made to help them press them on gently. The manufacturing engineer was standing there and smiling as he watched this go on. I asked the ME if he was getting many failures at final QA due to broken pots and the light bulb finally lit up. I don't blame them for not knowing better, but the tool was designed so they could safely press on the tight knobs without breaking things. Afterwards the ME shared with me that the line worker at that line station had arthritic wrists so it was hard for her to push on the knobs. I suggested putting her in a different position on that line that did not hurt her wrists. This is all very common sense but sometimes factory workers and managers do not see even the little picture let alone the big picture.
I don't know about a medium-sized manufacturer like Peavey, but in most small businesses the owner bears the greatest risk. Sure, when times are good, the owner rakes in the dough. But when times are tough, they are the first to take a pay cut. I know of several small business owners who were in that very situation through the recent boom and the bust: when the real estate market was on a rocketship to the moon, they were raking in huge amounts of money. Then when it tanked, they were living off of their savings, even paying their employees out of their personal savings accounts, in order to keep the business alive in hopes of hanging on until recovery. Some failed. Some held on, but I would say very few flourished during that time. Most are now able to balance their books, but barely: they still are trying to recover their businesses to the point where they and their employees can once again see growth and get back their savings and their perks & benefits.
Hartley has been running the business for 50 years and has seen massive change in the MI industry not always from the top of the mountain. he has enjoyed much success and hard times too, now is not exactly what I would call good times but probably not the worst (while it may be the worst PR snafu ever).
When I started working there in the mid '80s Peavey factories could not build the product fast enough and they had several months worth of constant factory back-order. Before I left the world had changed with Peavey no longer the lowest cost product, and the strong mom and pop dealer base no longer able to tell their customers what to buy. Maybe it was my fault? I was there...mea culpa. ;D
I think the growth of overseas manufacturing is not only due to labor costs, but labor in combination with transportation. Even at $3.00/gallon for fuel in the last few years, when compared to paychecks it is still cheaper than fuel in the 70's when it was a few dimes/gallon. That means that the manufacturing plus shipping from overseas has been less than the cost of manufacturing here.
I don't know if that was ever true but an important data point is not just the shipping here to service US markets but shipping to the rest of the world. When China opened up it was far cheaper to service Europe and the rest of the world from China than from here. FInally the question became is it worth tooling up one product for two production lines?
A second very important factor is that all the component vendors have long since relocated to China, so trying to build stuff anywhere else in the world adds weeks to the production lead time. Longer lead times means less accurate forecasting and lost efficiencies. Not to mention tying up capital on parts in transit.
When fuel prices were nearing their peak, pushing $4/gallon, there was some hope that it, combined with increased demand for benefits by foreign labor, would make it cost effective to reshore production. With the recent drop closer to $2, it kind of puts that hope on hold. (Of course, overseas shipping uses forms of fuel other than gasoline or diesel, but using gasoline and diesel as the example makes it more understandable to most readers, and there is a correlation between gasoline and bunker fuel prices.)
Shipping is not the only factor affected by fuel prices. Electricity prices are another factor in factory costs, while it is difficult to ignore recent changes in the cost of mandated employee benefits. Robots don't consume health care or take vacations. Ironic perhaps that the head of Hon Hai (big apple CM) has promised to employ one million robots within the next decade or so. :o
Another significant factor is automation. If you're going to make a machine do a job once done by a human, it's often cheaper to build a whole new factory rather than retool existing factory space that isn't laid out optimally for machines. And were you to retool an existing factory, you might have to stop production for several months, and that would HURT. If you're going to build a new factory, when you consider that %25-50 of the cost can be in environmental remediation, government-mandated infrastructure improvements, and various paperwork to meet myriad regulations (in addition to debt service) -- things that do absolutely nothing to produce revenue -- it gets mighty attractive to build that factory in a country where you can just build it.
I don't see that... advanced automation generally operates in a smaller footprint than old lines while really advanced processes require clean rooms and environmental controls. Again all the component makers are still over there.
At some point we will have 3D printers making the components, so you just dump raw material in one end of the factory and finished goods poot out the other end, but not in my lifetime.
So in Peavey's case, the competition built their factories overseas and they didn't. They were able to hang on for a while, and we can credit dedicated, efficient employees (and possibly low debt, but I don't know) for that, but the writing was on the wall: because of factors of labor, transportation, and regulations there was no way they could compete with onshore production. Like the small business owner, rather than making radical changes they opted to stay the course hoping that things would recover. Economic reality is finally catching up with them.
Since I have seen the low cost manufacturing centers shift from country to country, building and owning a factory in China may not be an asset after the next shift to a lower cost region. They are already building automobile and TV set factories in Africa. Wages in China have increased dramatically since I last visited there. In my judgement China will not always be the low cost manufacturer. Better to stay nimble and use contract manufacturers (like apple and other very successful companies). (While this is double top secret Peavey was in advanced planning to build a factory in China while I was still working there. For reasons I won't go into that plan never came to fruition.)
When it makes economic sense to build automated factories in the US, it will happen. Just remember that our current regulatory environment requires expenses that have no return on investment.
Far be it for me to pass up an opportunity to pee on government over reach, so I'll just say Ja mon.
JR
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This is not always the way it appears from the outside-especially on an edited TV program.
I think that Hartley had a genuine need to find out what was "really" going on in the company, because of the communication problems I mentioned previously. Somewhere along the line they lost genuine communication back from the production employees -- a communication link that is vital to the health of any company. I'm not going to bother trying to guess why that link was lost. They probably saw Undercover Boss as a means of getting some genuine communication. Unfortunately, I think they were a little late on rebuilding that link, and as a result broke a lot of trust and created a lot of hardship and hard feelings. Hopefully they can rebuild trust with their remaining employees; it will be hard work. At least that's what I get out of the show.
Any "reality" TV show is not reality. They are all edited to highlight the drama, because the drama is what keeps people glued to the set, and people glued to the set is good for business, because they can sell more expensive advertising time. There are a lot of "reality" shows that are heavily scripted; I'm guessing that Undercover Boss isn't so much. Even so, as Ivan says, it's not always the way it appears. While the show cast a bad light on Peavey, I see some glimmer of hope but I recognize the reality of business.
From the show, it sounds like the announcement to close Plant 3 was filtered down through middle management. In my opinion, Courtland or Hartley should have called a company meeting and delivered that news personally. That would have gone a long way to reestablishing trust and reopening genuine communication.
JR, I appreciate your insights, and I'm venturing to guess that you know Peavey's situation better than anyone else here. While many of us are armchair quarterbacking, you were actually on the field.
Far be it for me to pass up an opportunity to pee on government over reach, so I'll just say Ja mon.
I was trying to be careful to not insert a political opinion, lest I run afoul of the forum censors. :-)
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I think that Hartley had a genuine need to find out what was "really" going on in the company, because of the communication problems I mentioned previously. Somewhere along the line they lost genuine communication back from the production employees -- a communication link that is vital to the health of any company. I'm not going to bother trying to guess why that link was lost. They probably saw Undercover Boss as a means of getting some genuine communication. Unfortunately, I think they were a little late on rebuilding that link, and as a result broke a lot of trust and created a lot of hardship and hard feelings. Hopefully they can rebuild trust with their remaining employees; it will be hard work. At least that's what I get out of the show.
You are repeating yourself. I won't repeat my rebuttal.
Hartley even said on screen that he was trying to disengage from running the business and let Cortland run it. (FWIW Hartley typically delegated running the day to day operations to a strong #2. He was the big idea guy.)
Any "reality" TV show is not reality. They are all edited to highlight the drama, because the drama is what keeps people glued to the set, and people glued to the set is good for business, because they can sell more expensive advertising time. There are a lot of "reality" shows that are heavily scripted; I'm guessing that Undercover Boss isn't so much. Even so, as Ivan says, it's not always the way it appears. While the show cast a bad light on Peavey, I see some glimmer of hope but I recognize the reality of business.
UB was not scripted but they are riding this layoff event for all the drama they can squeeze out of it. At one point Peavey had some something like 2,000 employees. What about the 1,700 no longer working there? In the history of Peavey this recent layoff wouldn't even be a footnote if it wasn't showcased on national TV.
From the show, it sounds like the announcement to close Plant 3 was filtered down through middle management. In my opinion, Courtland or Hartley should have called a company meeting and delivered that news personally. That would have gone a long way to reestablishing trust and reopening genuine communication.
huh...all touchy feeley aren't we? A question nobody asked is why were there only 100 people working in a building a 1/4 mile long? When plant 3 let out, it used to cause the closest thing to rush hour traffic seen in Meridian.
JR, I appreciate your insights, and I'm venturing to guess that you know Peavey's situation better than anyone else here. While many of us are armchair quarterbacking, you were actually on the field.
I have been off that team for 15 years now but I find the amount that people "think" they know about Peavey the man and the company from that one TV show is remarkable.
I was trying to be careful to not insert a political opinion, lest I run afoul of the forum censors. :-)
What are they going to do.. put us on a TV show ?
JR
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I finally found some time to watch the episode and I think it would have been better for Peavey if it wasn't broadcast. Didn't it say at the end that they were still working on fulfilling the promises they made to the employees? That was 4 months later.
Our resort was the subject of an episode of undercover boss Canada a few years ago. We came across a lot better. I've always thought that the episode was edited to make us look our best but after seeing the Peavey episode, it doesn't seem that the company has any say.
I didn't like the fact that the owner was watching from a motor home. It seemed more like he was spying. I also didn't like the fact that the executives didn't tell them in person that the plant was closing.
Around here we are well informed as to how our company is doing and what future plans and ideas are. Maybe that's more of a Canadian business practice. Maybe not but it is in my world and we all respect our bosses for that.
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JR, Thank you for taking the time to share some of the inside of Peavey. I have used Peavey products for years-they filled a need at our church and were the right combination of rugged/price/performance for us. I enjoy the history-both business and tech and the insight it provides-maybe might even learn a few things.
I will pass judgement on Hartley and his actions after I have built a more successful business than he has (not likely).
(FWIW, Ford was bringing in raw materials at one end of the plant and putting out finished product decades before 3D printers came about!!)
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Huh ?? Peavey's main problem at the moment is exactly the "perception". If Hartley was more concerned about that he might not have done the show, or managed the outcome better.. That's not very kind.
I actually know the man and won't go there.
JR
JR, I make no claim to know Hartley or his kin personally and will happily defer to you on any assessment of his character, but I can say that seeing him sit in an air conditioned RV while saying "you'll hear complaints, oh boo hoo woe is me..." struck me the wrong way.
There have been so many opportunities for Peavey to regain former glory that have been squandered, so many products undelivered or under-performing (EBN series speakers, Impulse 12D), that it is hard to keep the faith in the brand.
Last I heard, the previous heir-apparent Joe grew weary of Hartley's "my-way or the highway" and is now at QSC designing the products that could have revived Peavey.
My biggest complaint about the Peavey *brand* at present is a real lack of anything that really suits my needs aside from their IPR series power amps.
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I'm far from the new kid on the Peavey block having grown up with the brand from it's beginning through today. Peavey's problem, as pointed out by JR, has always been a matter of perception, however, the perception has never been that of lacking quality, but the perception that the Peavey brand was a target brand for the masses.
Guess what sports fans, the brand is now and always has been targeted towards the entry level masses, but it has always been a brand of entry level high, quality hardware, for a reasonable price. I personally have owned my share Peavey brand hardware through the years including an all in one PA with column speakers that lasted me for 4 hard years of touring the deep south in the mid 70's. I never had a problem, the sound was just fine, and was retired in 1978 having done the job 100's of times over without failure. I've owned and still own some Peavey monitors. Little 12" furry beasts that have had the living shit kicked out of them more times than I can remember, and still alive as a cabinet filled with JBL components almost 30 years later.
So am I a fan boy of Peavey? Yes, and no. I appreciate Hartley for the company he has created, and for the hardware they sell. I also understand his passing of the torch to his son in law, but regardless, it's Hartley's legacy and his complacent attitude through the entire painful episode was just contrary to everything I had learned about Peavey, through their conception until now. The program won't sway me from my opinion of Peavey as a company, and they will remain a recommended favorite to those just starting out, HOWEVER, Hartley and his son in law need a kick in the balls.
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I don't have a whole lot to add to this thread, but if Courtland showed up in my office in his disguise for that Undercover Boss thing, I would have laughed and asked if he was practicing for Halloween. I am truly amazed that the guy he first met at the store in Hollywood didn't make him on the spot (this is evidenced by his later commentary about the supposed quality of the microphones).
Incidentally, I personally built that sound system in the Hollywood store. I'll tell you one thing for sure, when it is used correctly, it works really, REALLY well. The fact that the guys operating the system don't know what they are doing and then they blame the feedback on the supposed quality of the microphones just blows my mind, but you can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Everyone in this forum can imagine what kind of havoc would be wrought by throwing some musicians and sales people at their sound system.
The unit that Courtland smoked the circuit board in was indeed a CAB 4n. It is a configurable network I/O box. It can be set up with either Dante or CobraNet for the networked audio and the I/O configuration is 16 channels, configurable in groups of four for Mic Input, Line Input, and Line Output. The final configuration of the unit is not known until a customer orders one. They were just testing the boards there in the circuit board manufacturing area to make sure they had good working parts to send over to assembly where they would get put together into chassis. Finally I/O cards are fitted to the units when an order comes in. So, yes, overall it is not a very efficient system, but it is relatively low volume product.
I find it entertaining to read everyone's comments. I swear some people must have completely lost their sense of humor. Why wouldn't pops (who is good at working with his hands) give sonny a hard time when he can't do something as simple as assemble some circuit boards for testing? Regardless, I have great respect for both Hartley and Courtland. They are both far better men than this TV show portrays.
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The problem appeared that there was no one who had a clue operating the system. Anyone who thinks feedback is caused by a bad mic and swapping it will fix it, should not be anywhere near a board.
Incidentally, I personally built that sound system in the Hollywood store. I'll tell you one thing for sure, when it is used correctly, it works really, REALLY well. The fact that the guys operating the system don't know what they are doing and then they blame the feedback on the supposed quality of the microphones just blows my mind, but you can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Everyone in this forum can imagine what kind of havoc would be wrought by throwing some musicians and sales people at their sound system.
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It doesn't matter who built the system or what it sounded like after it was put together. It was that guy's job to make sure the band had a working system, and to make adjustments as needed. It appeared to me he had little or no knowledge of how the system worked or should have worked, and very little if any background with pro sound. He's not suited for the job, and if he was my employee he would have been fired on the spot.
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Thanks Josh... Somebody who was there that day in Hollywood said the band (#kansascitybankroll ) rocked.
While UB is not scripted, it seems like there is a definite formula the shows all follow. The undercover suit in disguise always finds something an employee does to correct and/or complain about. Blaming the gear does not reveal much familiarity with live sound, and is not how you promote Peavey microphones on national TV. ::)
I see the method behind showcasing the Hollywood location and Media-Matrix while the show format and mishandled employee interactions dragged the whole enterprise off the road surface and into the ditch. The editing and gotcha journalism at the end didn't help (well maybe it helped UB at Peavey's expense).
Good Luck...
JR
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Bob, the guy operating the sound system is the store manager. He should know all about how to use the gear as he has been in music store sales for a really long time. It really is inexcusable that he did such a poor job that night.
JR, dragged off the road and into the ditch is a nice way to understate what happened. Hahaha!!!
Yes, I'm sure this will result in ratings for the TV show, unfortunately at the company's expense. That is the part that really sucks.
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Bob, the guy operating the sound system is the store manager. He should know all about how to use the gear as he has been in music store sales for a really long time.
I would disagree.
I know a number of people in audio sales-who have done it their whole life, but "for the most part" still don't have a handle on the basics and when left to "do it themselves" they are often in trouble.
I do agree you would "think/hope" they should know how to operate gear.
I will admit that "selling" is an art form-especially when done right. Finding the customers buttons, pushing them the right way etc.
I hate the "salesmen" who try to sell something just to sell it-whether or not it is right for the customer.
But when you are trying to "do good" by the customer and get a relationship with them, then "selling techniques" can be a good thing.
I know one guy who is very good and some of the things he comes up with to make various people "feel good" and not throw others under the bus is quite remarkable.
And his techniques have turned some "competition" into customers.
Selling is NOT my thing-probably the reason why my businesses (that I owned) never did well. It was not because of the job I/we did, but rather because of selling and basic business practices.
Of course I am VERY HAPPY that they failed. If they had not, I would not be in the position I am now.
So in some cases-a failure is actually a GOOD thing. And you learn a lot from them-sometimes the hard way.
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So in some cases-a failure is actually a GOOD thing. And you learn a lot from them-sometimes the hard way.
Failure can be very useful. One of my heroes is Edwin Land, inventor of Polaroid instant photography.
He would get annoyed if he found the solution to a problem straight away as that didn't tell him what the variables were and how they affected the process.
By failing a few times before success he knew the parameter he could work with.
Steve.
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Let's push through this shit. Designing and prototype work is not the same as presenting a finished product to the potential buyers. Training is the key to success for both sales and field engineers. If that bozo had been properly trained he wouldn't have made the statements he made concerning mics and other bullshit. If he's the manager he's a poor excuse for one. If he didn't know the product, then he should have had someone there that does know the product, that could have spotted potential issues before the presentation, not during, and not afterwards. Failing after being trained is not an option, and if Peavey didn't or doesn't train their sales and support teams in the field then they have failed.
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Let's push through this shit. Designing and prototype work is not the same as presenting a finished product to the potential buyers. Training is the key to success for both sales and field engineers. If that bozo had been properly trained he wouldn't have made the statements he made concerning mics and other bullshit. If he's the manager he's a poor excuse for one. If he didn't know the product, then he should have had someone there that does know the product, that could have spotted potential issues before the presentation, not during, and not afterwards. Failing after being trained is not an option, and if Peavey didn't or doesn't train their sales and support teams in the field then they have failed.
Training is an expense that seems to be an area where companies try to save money. We used to have training sessions here when we got new software and systems and employees. I haven't seen any sessions in years or just a quick intro course.
Seems to be that on the job training is what they choose. You miss the basics.
I expect salespeople to know the product but I can't say that I've met many that know how to use it lately.
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Damn you guys, I had to go back and watch that segment again. Looking at it closely the sound tech should have been checking the batteries and getting the sound system set up, "before" the band showed up not after. Instead he was playing his own tracks for the "contest" camera crew there filming them. His eyes were not on the ball.
I know Kenny the guy running that showcase and IMO he is a musician more than an experienced sound man, as he should be to do that job well which is more about relating to musicians than microphones. I spent some time on the road with him when he was the Peavey rep in SOCAL. He has played in bands and knows his way around a mixer but I expect every show is a new day with different gear on stage so stuff happens. Blaming it on a Peavey mic may have been the easiest way to get the kibitzer off his back, so he could focus on troubleshooting the problem. The sound tech should have been able to get the system working without his manager's participation. I suspect that was not the sound bite Kenny wanted his national TV cameo to be. ::)
I made feedback on purpose for several years at trade shows for Peavey when I was pimping FLS eq so it all seems pretty simple to me, but it is far from trivial for most normal humans, especially ones that are not experienced sound engineers (like you guys).
If that show was looking to check off the box, for employees dropping the ball they got their wish, I doubt the event was the complete disaster that clip presented it as. It seems remarkable to me that the employee who dropped the ball on prepping the gear for the demo, got singled out for "queen for a day" treatment at the end. Which was it hero or zero? It looks like another gymnastic stretch to check off boxes to meet the show formula.
I repeat I am not trying to excuse Peavey while I feel like they got shown in an unusually bad light. They deserve some blame for inviting that close inspection in this environment. One has to wonder if they ever watched that show?
JR
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Wow, I watched the Peavey episode and thought... yup, a train wreck. I can't help thinking that a Company that has seen economic pressures from all sources, (as they claimed in the video) wouldn't seek help from it's employees? The stepson never walked through the plant? (does Harley?) He never took an interest in exactly what employees do? Management showing an interest in how or how well, or input from the employees, is like found Gold to the employer. Respected and valued employees can make or break a company. They tend to have cost saving ideas. Them being more productive is a major cost saving benefit. Just walking through the plant and waving hello can give the employee the impression that the management cares for them..... whether they do or not..
What were the decisions behind hiring employees for their "Flagship Store", who seem so inept and, most importantly, disinterested in their jobs? If they're doing shows there constantly, they should have limits and levels pretty much dialed in. The guy that commented about the mic..? I'm guessing he'll be gone soon.
Hammer
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Damn you guys, I had to go back and watch that segment again. Looking at it closely the sound tech should have been checking the batteries and getting the sound system set up, "before" the band showed up not after. Instead he was playing his own tracks for the "contest" camera crew there filming them. His eyes were not on the ball.
I know Kenny the guy running that showcase and IMO he is a musician more than an experienced sound man, as he should be to do that job well which is more about relating to musicians than microphones. I spent some time on the road with him when he was the Peavey rep in SOCAL. He has played in bands and knows his way around a mixer but I expect every show is a new day with different gear on stage so stuff happens. Blaming it on a Peavey mic may have been the easiest way to get the kibitzer off his back, so he could focus on troubleshooting the problem. The sound tech should have been able to get the system working without his manager's participation. I suspect that was not the sound bite Kenny wanted his national TV cameo to be. ::)
I made feedback on purpose for several years at trade shows for Peavey when I was pimping FLS eq so it all seems pretty simple to me, but it is far from trivial for most normal humans, especially ones that are not experienced sound engineers (like you guys).
If that show was looking to check off the box, for employees dropping the ball they got their wish, I doubt the event was the complete disaster that clip presented it as. It seems remarkable to me that the employee who dropped the ball on prepping the gear for the demo, got singled out for "queen for a day" treatment at the end. Which was it hero or zero? It looks like another gymnastic stretch to check off boxes to meet the show formula.
I repeat I am not trying to excuse Peavey while I feel like they got shown in an unusually bad light. They deserve some blame for inviting that close inspection in this environment. One has to wonder if they ever watched that show?
JR
JR,
I'll always be a Peavey fan, good product for the right job and all, but I was actually angered to see the total incompetence displayed by the store manager. This is supposed to be a flagship site, and every viewer in the USA has been left with the feeling incompetence at Peavey rules the day.
What they need now is a 1hr segement on "How it's made.", and hopefully they can show what Peavey is really made of. Fucking Hartley has pissed me off.
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The shortcomings in cost effectiveness of domestic manufacturing will not be resolved by a group hug with employees in Meridian. This is not some marginal single digit percentage cost miss. While this TV show has pushed back employee relations a bunch. I have always wondered how cherry picking a small handful of employees for special treatment and rewards would be received by all the other employees who got nada? Not like this was all kept secret.
Charlie how do you think your employees would appreciate only one or two getting the big bonuses? I suspect most workers would prefer a modest raise for everybody instead.
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Peavey has been making musical equipment in MS for 50 years and has been a pioneer at automating multiple aspects of that manufacturing over those decades. Peavey was first to use a copy lathe to machine guitar necks with more accuracy and lower cost, etc.
No amount of wishing will overcome the global displacements for low and semi-skilled labor. If there was a practical way to keep manufacturing domestic they would have done it. I was in those trenches and this battle was lost decades ago.
I left some 15 years ago and I wanted to see the Peavey brand move more upscale to support premium prices and escape the severe cost competition. Easier said than done. I have only seen a small handful of brands pull that off. It's incredibly hard to change the image of such an established brand.
arghhh.
JR
PS: I used to walk around the factory (at least some of them) all the time. Hartley walking around the factory today would be too disruptive, but he was the factory 50 years ago.
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JR,
I'll always be a Peavey fan, good product for the right job and all, but I was actually angered to see the total incompetence displayed by the store manager. This is supposed to be a flagship site, and every viewer in the USA has been left with the feeling incompetence at Peavey rules the day.
What they need now is a 1hr segement on "How it's made.", and hopefully they can show what Peavey is really made of. Fucking Hartley has pissed me off.
Hello Bob, et al..
I get some strange impressions from Hartley. The "daddy won't let go" syndrome of the Company, (gotta micro-manage everything) and, I somehow get the impression that he feels since he started the Company, that he has the right to drive it into the ground. But...??
Hammer
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JR,
I'll always be a Peavey fan, good product for the right job and all, but I was actually angered to see the total incompetence displayed by the store manager. This is supposed to be a flagship site, and every viewer in the USA has been left with the feeling incompetence at Peavey rules the day.
What they need now is a 1hr segement on "How it's made.", and hopefully they can show what Peavey is really made of. Fucking Hartley has pissed me off.
You're angry... How do you think they feel?? I quit and was escorted out of the building by guards 15 years ago and I'm angry.
In my judgement that TV show and how they edited real events does not present an accurate or fair picture of the company, while it is not a complete fiction, it was spun to create some drama and ratings for the show.
For the record Peavey does not have a reputation for being generous with employees, and as the economics turns against domestic manufacturing how can anybody be shocked by adjustments to retain profitability.
If Peavey did not lay off workers over the last decade plus, the news would be about filing bankruptcy.
JR
[Edit- I've seen enough videos about Peavey factory tours and how it made to last several lifetimes. Go to their website if you are thirsty for that. Don't hold your breath for that ever showing on national TV, not enough drama.... /edit]
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Hello Bob, et al..
I get some strange impressions from Hartley. The "daddy won't let go" syndrome of the Company, (gotta micro-manage everything) and, I somehow get the impression that he feels since he started the Company, that he has the right to drive it into the ground. But...??
Hammer
Remarkable how much people think they know from watching that show.
I worked there for 15 years and Hartley was anything but a micro-manager. He refused to manage at all and always had a strong #2 to run the operations side. Hartley was the new product and big idea guy.
I believe him when he said he was trying to disengage from running the day to day business. I don't want to speak out of school and without first hand information, but the president of the company is his wife Mary, and the COO is her son. Neither grew up in the industry or have actual industry experience other than working at Peavey.
Watching his COO in action I can imagine some need to stay engaged, while I don't want to believe Cortland is as bad as presented by that TV show. Hartley has worked hard for 50 years and deserves a break, I don't think he will enjoy calm seas anytime soon.
JR
PS: It is interesting how the bright spotlight of national TV exposure has generated so much heat and so little light. I feel sorry for all the good employees still there, tarred by this unfortunate exposition.
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Remarkable how much people think they know from watching that show.
I worked there for 15 years and Hartley was anything but a micro-manager. He refused to manage at all and always had a strong #2 to run the operations side.
Watching his COO in action I can imagine some need to stay engaged,
PS: It is interesting how the bright spotlight of national TV exposure has generated so much heat and so little light. I feel sorry for all the good employees still there, tarred by this unfortunate exposition.
JR, of course those were my opinions based on watching a TV show. While It seems that I'm wrong about a few issues, I was probably correct in that we should feel sorry for the employees.
Also... you mentioned something that I hadn't considered, (although, I never watch the show), I'm certain some employees of these Companies featured on this TV show, might feel like they got a raw deal when a only few get these generous bonuses. Especially when they're working in a Company that keeps down-sizing and letting people go.
Peavey could have really scored big on this show, but, it seems that it's their business model to let things fall by the wayside. I wish them luck. In an industry that often demands a lot of hand-holding and elbow rubbing ...they have no representation.
I wonder when the last time Hartley attended a trade show? Or, manned a booth?
Hammer
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I wonder when the last time Hartley attended a trade show? Or, manned a booth?
Hammer
A few weeks ago at NAMM.... Come on guys...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0dvAID9FMA
Now ask me the last time I attended a NAMM show (15 years ago). 8)
IMO Peavey was always better about providing a value product than the persuasive advertising and marketing to sell me-too poop. No doubt this was a massive opportunity for them which is about the only explanation for them exposing themselves like that.
JR
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I wonder when the last time Hartley attended a trade show? Or, manned a booth?
Hammer
I have seen him almost every time at Infocomm and back when NSCA was happening. Not sure about other shows. I don't attend many of the others.
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Remarkable how much people think they know from watching that show.
I worked there for 15 years and Hartley was anything but a micro-manager. He refused to manage at all and always had a strong #2 to run the operations side. Hartley was the new product and big idea guy.
I believe him when he said he was trying to disengage from running the day to day business. I don't want to speak out of school and without first hand information, but the president of the company is his wife Mary, and the COO is her son. Neither grew up in the industry or have actual industry experience other than working at Peavey.
Watching his COO in action I can imagine some need to stay engaged, while I don't want to believe Cortland is as bad as presented by that TV show. Hartley has worked hard for 50 years and deserves a break, I don't think he will enjoy calm seas anytime soon.
JR
PS: It is interesting how the bright spotlight of national TV exposure has generated so much heat and so little light. I feel sorry for all the good employees still there, tarred by this unfortunate exposition.
You've made a key point regarding Cortland and mom. The best companies are companies that actually take the time to find out what it is that their employees are doing, then base their decisions on those findings. If moves have to be made, people trained, money spent in specific areas, then once justified and proven to be an economically sound decision, have at it. You have to dig to uncover those details, and there is no excuse for being out of touch with reality as far as your employees are concerned. Let's hope Hartley and Cortland can change some perception of what their management has come to, and let's hope Cortland takes the time to engage himself in the workings of his step Dad's company. I'm still angry at seeing Peavey presented in a far less than accurate light, and don't know who to blame more, UB or Peavey.
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i have not viewed the Peavey episode yet so I can't comment on that but my wife and I watch Undercover Boss a lot as she works in HR. It's pretty clear that the show is both scripted to a point (not putting words in people's mouths but telling them basically what to do, what topics to talk about, how to act, etc) and edited to show certain things like conflict, drama, etc.
The show makes EVERY boss look like an idiot. I don't care how big a company is, good bosses and good management walk around and talk to employees, share ideas and get feedback. Because the boss has to be in disguise it looks like UB picks bosses that stay locked up in the corporate office so they have less chance of being recognized.
UB also has a formula that every employee the boss interacts with has a hardship story like they can't pay for college, or they take care of a sick relative, or some other issue that is supposed to tug at the bosses heartstrings.
I hate that part of the show, but I enjoy watching the behind the scenes looks at manufacturing and businesses so I keep watching. If How It's Made was on at the same time I would watch that over Undercover Boss.
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If How It's Made was on at the same time I would watch that over Undercover Boss.
A big +1 to that.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I hate the "salesmen" who try to sell something just to sell it-whether or not it is right for the customer.
I'm going to change companies for a second, but in my opinion this was a gigantic reason Radio Shack failed. In addition to the switch in product focus, they stopped giving a rat's ass about whether their store associates knew a damn thing about anything technical and wanted sales people only. I know this first hand - I am anything but a sales person (in fact I hate talking to people) but I managed to get a job at RS a few years back. It appalled me that my coworkers knew absolutely nothing about the technology in the store, not only about the "old school" stuff that was being phased out but even about the televisions, computers, and personal devices that RS was hoping to make their bread and butter. Sales people they were, sure, some of them could sell land off the coast of Florida to a geologist, but when it came to explaining to someone what adapters they needed to perform a simple task (as simple as 1/8" to 1/4" headphone, which one of them sold a mono - stereo adapter instead...) or even explaining the difference between two laptops, it hurt to standby and listen to. My store manager totally understood I was there for the tech and not the sales and would shield me as much as he could from the stupid mandates, but eventually the pressure from district managers for the store to sell more cell phones and computers, and the shrinking labor budget made me realize that I needed to leave for the good of the store because my technical knowledge wasn't going to help sell the high-ticket items that RS Corporate wanted their associates to blindly focus on selling without knowing a thing about them. He totally understood.
Back to your regularly scheduled Peavey/Undercover Boss debate.
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i have not viewed the Peavey episode yet so I can't comment on that but my wife and I watch Undercover Boss a lot as she works in HR. It's pretty clear that the show is both scripted to a point (not putting words in people's mouths but telling them basically what to do, what topics to talk about, how to act, etc) and edited to show certain things like conflict, drama, etc.
The show makes EVERY boss look like an idiot. I don't care how big a company is, good bosses and good management walk around and talk to employees, share ideas and get feedback. Because the boss has to be in disguise it looks like UB picks bosses that stay locked up in the corporate office so they have less chance of being recognized.
UB also has a formula that every employee the boss interacts with has a hardship story like they can't pay for college, or they take care of a sick relative, or some other issue that is supposed to tug at the bosses heartstrings.
I hate that part of the show, but I enjoy watching the behind the scenes looks at manufacturing and businesses so I keep watching. If How It's Made was on at the same time I would watch that over Undercover Boss.
My wife recorded the episodes so that when time allowed we could watch them together. After discussing the Peavey episode tonight (again) I had her stop the series recording. Every episode is the same. Boss wears disguise, boss does things they don't know about, boss looks like ass, boss gives money to a select group of employees and half of them leave. I'm done, fuck UB.
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We have a version of this programme in the UK. I haven't seen many episodes but those I have seen are the opposite of the US format.
The companies usually put in any necessary changes which were highlighted whilst the boss was under cover and I don't recall a boss or a company ever being made to look bad.
Steve.
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Peavey lost my business a long time ago for various reasons for various reasons, one being I simply outgrew the product they offered.
I still have several american made EQ's, but these days those are being rendered obsolete
I have one pv14usb mixer, china made I picked up used a couple years ago. If you search on several direct to china sited you will find that exact mixer branded with several other names or unbranded.
I still remember the sales staff of local music store trying to sell me on the new and improved sp5G with the 1000 watt power rating (did they even make an amp over 5oow at that time?),,, kept repeating 1000 watts over and over.... yet any hint of browning on a scorpion basket voice coil was grounds for no warranty coverage. I vaguely recall an attepmpt to win people back with an extended warranty plan 3 or 5 years if all t's and i's done on warranty cards and the speakers run with a peavey amp. But the bar door had been open too long. The yamaha stuff didnt fail as often sounded better and was cheaper and faster to fix, Also the yorkville 2 year no questions asked even if you break it warranty is a major selling point in the MI game/
I think harping on about the MI PA line is a moot point, They make some fine products in other divisions band instruments, installed audio ,HOW specific products (paint it white and double the price), QW HDH and such even the versarray were good at the time but the no peavey line on the rider killed them
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Peavey lost my business a long time ago for various reasons for various reasons, one being I simply outgrew the product they offered.
Not surprising, Peavey's bread and butter is entry level customers.
I witnessed numerous attempts to market more professional Peavey products but the kind of features that differentiated more professional SKUs were hard for the classic Peavey distribution to appreciate the value of, so to old school MI dealers the extra expense was not justified so they were not supportive. The second problem, it is hard to be strong in both the low end and high end, but the low end has more customers so when push comes to shove the high end gets hind teat.
I still have several american made EQ's, but these days those are being rendered obsolete
I have one pv14usb mixer, china made I picked up used a couple years ago. If you search on several direct to china sited you will find that exact mixer branded with several other names or unbranded.
That's interesting. I didn't know that Peavey was private labeling their mixers to other brands. Crest used to rebrand some of their power amps back before Peavey bought them. I wouldn't be surprised to see different versions of a Peavey mixer show up in other Peavey brands (Crest, AA, etc), but the inference that Peavey is just selling a generic Chinese engineered mixer, or a Peavey contract manufacturer is selling Peavey mixers out the back door seems very unlikely to me. (Peavey distributors around the world are pretty serious about policing this, while I recall catching many amateurish counterfeits and one incident of Peavey drums showing up in another country outside normal distribution channels). I have been off the reservation for 15 years, but one of my jobs there was as the manager over mixer engineering. The guy who replaced me in that position is still there (as of a couple weeks ago) and still doing that same job.
I still remember the sales staff of local music store trying to sell me on the new and improved sp5G with the 1000 watt power rating (did they even make an amp over 5oow at that time?),,,
I remember arm wrestling UL over power cords when we broke the 3kW power level back while I was product manager for power amps. I suspect they are now making larger power (smaller and lighter) amps today, but I don't pay close attention to actual products since I left. Perhaps you don't either?
kept repeating 1000 watts over and over.... yet any hint of browning on a scorpion basket voice coil was grounds for no warranty coverage. I vaguely recall an attepmpt to win people back with an extended warranty plan 3 or 5 years if all t's and i's done on warranty cards and the speakers run with a peavey amp.
We extended the warranty to 5 years back while I was still working there, so over 15 years ago. I was involved in the analysis wrt cost of extending the warranty and it was no-brainer. Products that were working after 3 years were going to keep working for a lot more years. I don't recall any such stipulation that Peavey gear "must" be operated with other Peavey gear, but that is not a bad idea. I heard stories from before my time there, more than 30 years ago, about amps from a popular amp company (that shall remain nameless) that had a nasty habit of injecting DC into the output. and speaker voice coil, when it was clipping, damaging the speaker. All the Peavey haters argued that the amp was just too powerful for the Peavey speakers. No speakers like DC, and that other amp company did not make their own speakers (at the time.... they do now). They eventually fixed their amp clipping problem and the failures went away, but it cost Peavey a lot of warranty claims before that got cleaned up.
But the bar door had been open too long. The yamaha stuff didnt fail as often sounded better and was cheaper and faster to fix, Also the yorkville 2 year no questions asked even if you break it warranty is a major selling point in the MI game/
Bar(n) door ? Yorkville and Yamaha have well deserved reputations for reliability, too. You can't make and sell that much product for that many decades if it doesn't work.
I think harping on about the MI PA line is a moot point, They make some fine products in other divisions band instruments, installed audio ,HOW specific products (paint it white and double the price), QW HDH and such even the versarray were good at the time but the no peavey line on the rider killed them
I didn't know they sold band instruments, but I've been away for over a decade.
JR
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Bar(n) door ?
Stable door?
Steve.
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http://www.aliexpress.com/item/PV14-14-channel-stereo-audio-DSP-effect-mixer/1161484932.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/xianggangkeji-Peavey-pakwai-pv14-14-professional-mixer-belt-ktv/1593979759.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hot-sale-14-Channel-Mixer-48V-Phantom-Power-DSP-Effects-PV14/470896748.html
1 forgot to not silkscreen the peavey name on the bottom right corner
Could be knock offs, could be just the same factory in china running through enough units before changing the line, could be ones that didn't meet quality control first time through the line. Could be a container the triad gangs disappeared....
SP _XT would have been 1994
pv2600 amp 550w 8 ohm channel 2001
gps series was 2003
cs2000 500w 8 ohm channel 2005
cs1200 350w 8 ohm channel 1992, was a big amp in its day,
by band instruments I meant bass guitar and drums
As for the warranty I'm up in the frozen north of Canada and that was back in the days there was an actual Canada distribution depot. We covered that in a thread last year. It was 2 years plus 3 year extension if you were driving the speakers with a peavey amplifier. Not sure if that stipulation was made in the USA.
no Bar door, only real fit place for using the stuff aside from human voice unless you literally had several tons of it.
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http://www.aliexpress.com/item/PV14-14-channel-stereo-audio-DSP-effect-mixer/1161484932.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/xianggangkeji-Peavey-pakwai-pv14-14-professional-mixer-belt-ktv/1593979759.html
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hot-sale-14-Channel-Mixer-48V-Phantom-Power-DSP-Effects-PV14/470896748.html
1 forgot to not silkscreen the peavey name on the bottom right corner
Could be knock offs, could be just the same factory in china running through enough units before changing the line, could be ones that didn't meet quality control first time through the line. Could be a container the triad gangs disappeared....
Since all three say PV14 on the face plate and appear to be the same mixer, I'm inclined to believe they are all PV14 mixers.
I have been off the island for 15 years so I have no idea where these came from, but may have been sold by Peavey first and then resold (gray market-transhipped) Nowadays with universal switching power supplies moving these between markets is even easier. Peavey sells to over 100 countries.
SP _XT would have been 1994
pv2600 amp 550w 8 ohm channel 2001
gps series was 2003
cs2000 500w 8 ohm channel 2005
cs1200 350w 8 ohm channel 1992, was a big amp in its day,
cs1200 was a "heavy" amp too... the cs1200x was 900W at 2 ohm but newer bigger amps were designed later.
by band instruments I meant bass guitar and drums
As for the warranty I'm up in the frozen north of Canada and that was back in the days there was an actual Canada distribution depot. We covered that in a thread last year. It was 2 years plus 3 year extension if you were driving the speakers with a peavey amplifier. Not sure if that stipulation was made in the USA.
Canada was a separate different distributer so warranty was set by the canadian distributer. I recall when they wound down that Canada warehouse with lots of dead money, old odd inventory up there.
no Bar door, only real fit place for using the stuff aside from human voice unless you literally had several tons of it.
As I recall the Yorkville brand was developed by a major canadian music store chain that was heavily into rentals and had a very liberal warranty policy especially in the early days when they were getting the product designs sorted. Now decades later they have a solid product line (AFAIK).
JR
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Long-Mcquade is one of our more national music store chains in Canada. Traynor/yorkville company received some bankroll from them when growing in the early days, neither company is publicly traded but I heard one figure of the Long Family still having a 15% stake in Yorkville, could be truth could be rumor, makes little difference to me how the math was done.
They are somewhat predatory to mom and pop stores when they move to town but they have the capital to finance in house to musicians to keep them coming back every now and again for odds and ends while paying for that dream guitar rig. I know my rental stuff went downhill fast when they opened locally but after evaluating how little revenue it brought in for the bother it wasn't a large loss. That was before everyone had a cell phone in their pocket. Yes I still remember when people would actually pay attention when you explained how to plug stuff in and would get a photocopied how to sheet.
I've used a few peavey PV8/10/14 mixers with and without USB, I think 2004 was introduction and still current. They were always off shore made but the nice thing was internal power supply and comparable price point to the behringer offerings of the time. All in all a piece where It was an improvement over the previous offering all things considered.
I realize the UB show is skewed but looking at the peavey offerings today, They never really offered a strong powered speaker last decade, the impulse series powered ones were beat on price and fidelity by most others, never entered the digital console market, I wonder how many crest large frame analog consoles get sold in a year these days?
One nice piece was the S-14 mixer in the sanctuary series but again the paint it white charge twice as much usually applied. I still see the crest CA series listed, Wonder if just warehouse left overs or still making them as ordered? 1997 was the v1, I forget when the rework and change to vertical from horizontal on the output binding posts happened.
But for every decent piece there was something like the TLS and TLM series, good bingo callers but not much else. Again though I was not shopping at that price point but those that did seldom got more than they paid for.
As for yorkville they have had some winners and dogs, ls800p was a favorite on here for close to a decade, TX8/TX9s was as good as EAW of JBL at the time, the TX5L/R was a spectacularly loud processor controlled monitor system for outdoors,
I think the main beef with Peavey is the good products got tarred with the brush held by people who remembered mixing on a burned up board playing through decades old FOH boxes with toasted drivers and blown woofers trying to eq with cigarette smoke filled 2/3 octive short throw eq's....