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Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => Lighting Forum => Topic started by: Sean Mormelo on December 13, 2015, 01:07:05 AM
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Hi guys... As I alluded to in the other thread I'm looking to put together a very professional looking like show for our corporate band. The whole thing will be automated using Jands Vista and Qlab synced up to our video show and our tracks. Picture something you would see with video and lights at a decent size church. That's the type of show were going for as far as visuals. Now we definitely have budget but we don't want to spend more than we need to. Judging from all the other bands I've seen no one really spends too much of a light show and nobody in our market has the video show component that we are running as well so we want to stay far above the fray as far as quality goes.
I know we need to get enough wash to cover the stage and we want movers. Some movers in the floor rear stage etc. I'd get a lighting designer to help but I don't know of any around here. I was thinking 4 movers, 2 in the back and 2 in front, some LEDs on the front floor either side of the stage LED wash lights on either side of the stage front and in both corners in the back...some floor lighting on the sides of the stage. Moving bars vertical on the trusses in back...obviously the criteria has to be that it sets up fast so I want my lights on the tripod bars and I could just pull off and put in road cases and the movers that I could just put up on the truss stands. Anyway if anyone has any insight as to how many movers I may need what kinds of lights to get and/or design ideas I'm all ears.
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Hi Sean, I'll chime in on this one. The trick with lighting is that it's as much of an art as it is technical know how. What you and I think looks good might be two completely different things in practice! Two big considerations you need to think of is how much power do you have available at your average location, and are you allowed to use fog or haze at your average location. Those factors alone can make a huge difference on what you end up purchasing.
In terms of 'professional' looking, I tend to think an up-lit truss totem with a moving head or effect light on the top looks much better than the basic DJ lighting tripod. When I say 'totem', I just mean a length of 12" box truss with a properly sized base and top plate. You can also do truss totems in various different lengths to help give your setup a little more dimension to it. I'm not aware of any movers larger than DJ-grade that come built into a truss bar, so realistically you'd be attaching them to trussing top plates or clamping them onto your truss itself.
As far as how many movers you need, that's totally up to you. I'd focus on your primary stage wash first. Get that right and then supplement with the eye candy. One thing that does stand out to me is that you mention wanting to hire a lighting designer. The system you're specifying isn't small and you'll need someone who knows how to both program it and do basic troubleshooting/maintenance on it. Of course your mileage will vary, but professional movers need professional attention from time to time.
One possible way to help narrow down your choices of fixtures is to rent first. See what you like and what you'll use on a regular basis. My personal inventory of movers varies from 250w halogen to 700w discharge...it's about having the right tool for the job. Renting first can help you figure out what that is before you make the big investment, and for the once or twice a year shows that need more horsepower than you can justify owning, rent. Hope this helps!
-Jeff
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In theory, automating the lighting sounds like a great idea, and there are certainly programs that will make the lights do SOMETHING in response to the music, but they very rarely do a great job. If there's a slow break down in the middle of the song, for example, you would want the lights to respond appropriately. Instead, they'll just play the 'fast' scene, but slower.
A human being actively controlling the lights will usually produce results about 10x better than any automated program. I have a dozen or so nightclub clients, and it's sometimes a struggle to get them to hire a person to run the light show. I liken it to an iPod vs. a DJ. You can put all the best music on an iPod and hit shuffle, but it will never compare to a good DJ who can read the crowd and play the appropriate song for that moment, kill the volume during 'sing-along' parts, etc.
You can probably find a 20yr old kid who's passionate about the industry to set up, run, strike, and maintain the lights. And you could probably get a better show with a fraction of the fixtures if you have a talented operator.
As already mentioned, haze is a MUST for a good light show. A good hazer produces a fine mist, not a heavy fog. You'll still need to get it cleared with the venue beforehand, but it will make a night and day difference.
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Hi Sean, I'll chime in on this one. The trick with lighting is that it's as much of an art as it is technical know how. What you and I think looks good might be two completely different things in practice! Two big considerations you need to think of is how much power do you have available at your average location, and are you allowed to use fog or haze at your average location. Those factors alone can make a huge difference on what you end up purchasing.
In terms of 'professional' looking, I tend to think an up-lit truss totem with a moving head or effect light on the top looks much better than the basic DJ lighting tripod. When I say 'totem', I just mean a length of 12" box truss with a properly sized base and top plate. You can also do truss totems in various different lengths to help give your setup a little more dimension to it. I'm not aware of any movers larger than DJ-grade that come built into a truss bar, so realistically you'd be attaching them to trussing top plates or clamping them onto your truss itself.
As far as how many movers you need, that's totally up to you. I'd focus on your primary stage wash first. Get that right and then supplement with the eye candy. One thing that does stand out to me is that you mention wanting to hire a lighting designer. The system you're specifying isn't small and you'll need someone who knows how to both program it and do basic troubleshooting/maintenance on it. Of course your mileage will vary, but professional movers need professional attention from time to time.
One possible way to help narrow down your choices of fixtures is to rent first. See what you like and what you'll use on a regular basis. My personal inventory of movers varies from 250w halogen to 700w discharge...it's about having the right tool for the job. Renting first can help you figure out what that is before you make the big investment, and for the once or twice a year shows that need more horsepower than you can justify owning, rent. Hope this helps!
-Jeff
Thanks for responding Jeff. As far as power The use of LED is imperative because not all venues have adequate power for anything. We'll truthfully mostly be playing in Hotel Ballrooms, Hard Rock Live type venues and wedding Halls. I had originally considered Trussing but the size and weight of the truss for transport and set up time considerations nixed that idea. I will have truss type stands for the moving heads on the back walls which will be draped in white and uplit. In my experience many places do allow Haze but some do not. Primarily the wedding type venues. We definitely want good Haze ability.
Again the moving heads will be going on Vertical truss stands like the Chauvet or Odyessy. Every lightshow we have seen that we are interested in DOES HAVE MOVERS so they are definitely wanted. Again, I could post pictures of these big Churches with the video screen center and on each side back wall and movers along with Wash. That's the look we want.
We can't rent first because the entire lightshow will be programed and synced with our video and tracks. Programing the lights will be the easiest thing and we're very advanced in Audio and motion graphics effects programs. I have Jands Vista and it shouldn't be very difficult for us. It's a process however and because our show is a closed system, renting things is a non-starter. We have to design it and program it so we need everything to do so.
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In theory, automating the lighting sounds like a great idea, and there are certainly programs that will make the lights do SOMETHING in response to the music, but they very rarely do a great job. If there's a slow break down in the middle of the song, for example, you would want the lights to respond appropriately. Instead, they'll just play the 'fast' scene, but slower.
A human being actively controlling the lights will usually produce results about 10x better than any automated program. I have a dozen or so nightclub clients, and it's sometimes a struggle to get them to hire a person to run the light show. I liken it to an iPod vs. a DJ. You can put all the best music on an iPod and hit shuffle, but it will never compare to a good DJ who can read the crowd and play the appropriate song for that moment, kill the volume during 'sing-along' parts, etc.
You can probably find a 20yr old kid who's passionate about the industry to set up, run, strike, and maintain the lights. And you could probably get a better show with a fraction of the fixtures if you have a talented operator.
As already mentioned, haze is a MUST for a good light show. A good hazer produces a fine mist, not a heavy fog. You'll still need to get it cleared with the venue beforehand, but it will make a night and day difference.
No man, we're not automating anything. EVerything will be PROGRAMED to our music with cues specific to the dynamics of the song and the video. Nothing will just be running auto scenes.....
Again what we are doing is creating a show. The light show is preprogramed in advance to go with our music and video. Ya dig? Just programming all the cues and the video will be months. We've been working on our audio tracks for the first 50 tunes for 6 months already and are in the process of prepping the video.
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Oh ok. Sounds like you've got it all figured out then champ. Good luck.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Oh ok. Sounds like you've got it all figured out then champ. Good luck.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
No I have the show figured out and the software but I lead hoping for a recommendation of the specific fixtures I might need based on experience. Just because I don't need help with some aspects of what I'm doing doesn't mean I do not on others!! Specifically with regard to the fixtures as I originally asked. Thanks.
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No I have the show figured out and the software but...
From piecing together the two threads you've started so far, I'm not convinced you do. A lot of what you're saying is very contradictory and I don't think anyone is getting a clear picture of what you're actually trying to achieve. I promise that I'm really trying to help you here, so please take this as constructive criticism.
As far as power The use of LED is imperative because not all venues have adequate power for anything.
What's adequate for you? 20A, 100A, 600A? Having played such venues at one point I know what you mean though in that each location is different. Some have outstanding power and some are a fire waiting to happen. I would imagine you also have a sound system and apparently video equipment as well? How much power are you budgeting for that as well? Despite the fact that LED units are lower wattage than their halogen counterparts, they are in no way negligible on the power budget. Most decent LED par cans draw between 100 and 300w depending on features. That's not something to leave unaccounted for. Now, say you want 8 to 12 of these to handle your basic stage wash - that's at least 1 20A circuit right there. My recommendation would be to figure out a solid number for average power available at your average venue and go from there. Of course you can do what most of us do and scale the rig based on venue size and available power, but you seem pretty much against that right now.
I had originally considered Trussing but the size and weight of the truss for transport and set up time considerations nixed that idea. I will have truss type stands... Again the moving heads will be going on Vertical truss stands like the Chauvet or Odyessy.
Can you get more specific on what a truss-type stand is? A product link would be a great start! Also, what's acceptable setup time for you? 15min? 2hr? 1 day? Knowing that you're a band I'd be inclined to think the shorter the better, but big rigs take time and people to set up, aim, and run. If you're not hiring at least one dedicated tech to handle this for you you'll be very limited in options that are big but go up fast and run themselves.
In my experience many places do allow Haze but some do not. Primarily the wedding type venues. We definitely want good Haze ability.
Sadly, it's never what you want - it's what the venue allows. If both line up, then great! Otherwise, you need to be ready to adapt. Seeing as you want the exact same rig for each gig, you'll have to assume haze is forbidden and choose fixtures and effects accordingly.
Again, I could post pictures of these big Churches with the video screen center and on each side back wall and movers along with Wash. That's the look we want.
Please do! That will help a lot.
We can't rent first because the entire lightshow will be programed and synced with our video and tracks.
I don't think you understood what I meant by renting first. What I'm getting at is rent/demo/attend trade show to see how various units look in the real world! The promo videos you see on youtube look great because the company's marketing department pays to make them look great! That's how they sell their product. Based on what those videos show, you'd think you could light an arena with a dozen 10w LED movers! Yes, you will ultimately purchase your system, but unless you've gotten to see what you're getting ahead of time you're taking a serious gamble. Tying this into your other thread, nothing you've mentioned so far is name-brand. Not that I have anything against ebay lights (and have had reasonable luck with them), the aftermarket support you'll get is probably nill, and like I said above, pro movers need pro service from time to time. From the way you're talking right now, it seems as if you're about to spend some reasonable cash on a system. The worst thing in the world is to drop say $30k on a rig just to see it's not bright enough for what you need (and then not be able to sell any of it because it's all no-name equipment). You'd really be doing yourself a favor to find a nearby dealer who can help make sure you get what you need
A human being actively controlling the lights will usually produce results about 10x better than any automated program.
And you could probably get a better show with a fraction of the fixtures if you have a talented operator.
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What he said. Yes, I understand that you're looking to timecode your show together and run it autopilot, BUT, it's never that simple in practice, especially when operating mobile. What if timecode won't sync? What if a mover is acting up? What if you don't have enough power to run your 'normal' show? It's all about the what-ifs? If you're truly playing the professional/corporate shows that you claim to be, you'll certainly understand that there always must be a Plan B and that you have to roll with the punches sometimes. You should also be able to pay for a dedicated light tech at that gig level to help ensure professional results. Yes, I occasionally run lightshows with timecode, but even beforehand in every venue I usually need to make slight adjustments to the programming. If you set the board and cuing up correctly this isn't a big deal, but something that needs to be done. Think about it, would an audience member really want a Mac 2K beaming them in the face from 20ft away? Of course not, so depending on venue layout I often need to redefine the limits of where I want my movers scanning and where I don't - all before the show starts and tweaking as things progress.
So where am I going with all this rambling? You need to realize that adaptability is crucial for both lights and sound depending on your situation and location. That's what makes the difference between a cheap-looking DJ light show and a professional one. Not necessarily what brand name is on the product or how many you have, but it's about knowing the right tool for the job and how effectively what you have is being used. Hopefully you're willing to understand this crucial aspect of running a mobile operation.
Now that the 'criticize' part of this novel is done, here's the constructive part: If you really must build a one-rig-fits-all show, have a look at the Martin Rush series as well as the Chauvet Rogue series. Beam fixtures will be nearly useless without fog or haze, so since we're talking worst-case here, stick with washes since they'll look fine with or without haze. Clay Paky also makes some very interesting movers that can do pixel mapping and other neat eye candy effects. American DJ and Blizzard offer more budget-friendly solutions. I really hope this helps you out.
-Jeff
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From piecing together the two threads you've started so far, I'm not convinced you do. A lot of what you're saying is very contradictory and I don't think anyone is getting a clear picture of what you're actually trying to achieve. I promise that I'm really trying to help you here, so please take this as constructive criticism.
What's adequate for you? 20A, 100A, 600A? Having played such venues at one point I know what you mean though in that each location is different. Some have outstanding power and some are a fire waiting to happen. I would imagine you also have a sound system and apparently video equipment as well? How much power are you budgeting for that as well? Despite the fact that LED units are lower wattage than their halogen counterparts, they are in no way negligible on the power budget. Most decent LED par cans draw between 100 and 300w depending on features. That's not something to leave unaccounted for. Now, say you want 8 to 12 of these to handle your basic stage wash - that's at least 1 20A circuit right there. My recommendation would be to figure out a solid number for average power available at your average venue and go from there. Of course you can do what most of us do and scale the rig based on venue size and available power, but you seem pretty much against that right now.
Can you get more specific on what a truss-type stand is? A product link would be a great start! Also, what's acceptable setup time for you? 15min? 2hr? 1 day? Knowing that you're a band I'd be inclined to think the shorter the better, but big rigs take time and people to set up, aim, and run. If you're not hiring at least one dedicated tech to handle this for you you'll be very limited in options that are big but go up fast and run themselves.
Sadly, it's never what you want - it's what the venue allows. If both line up, then great! Otherwise, you need to be ready to adapt. Seeing as you want the exact same rig for each gig, you'll have to assume haze is forbidden and choose fixtures and effects accordingly.
Please do! That will help a lot.
I don't think you understood what I meant by renting first. What I'm getting at is rent/demo/attend trade show to see how various units look in the real world! The promo videos you see on youtube look great because the company's marketing department pays to make them look great! That's how they sell their product. Based on what those videos show, you'd think you could light an arena with a dozen 10w LED movers! Yes, you will ultimately purchase your system, but unless you've gotten to see what you're getting ahead of time you're taking a serious gamble. Tying this into your other thread, nothing you've mentioned so far is name-brand. Not that I have anything against ebay lights (and have had reasonable luck with them), the aftermarket support you'll get is probably nill, and like I said above, pro movers need pro service from time to time. From the way you're talking right now, it seems as if you're about to spend some reasonable cash on a system. The worst thing in the world is to drop say $30k on a rig just to see it's not bright enough for what you need (and then not be able to sell any of it because it's all no-name equipment). You'd really be doing yourself a favor to find a nearby dealer who can help make sure you get what you need
.
What he said. Yes, I understand that you're looking to timecode your show together and run it autopilot, BUT, it's never that simple in practice, especially when operating mobile. What if timecode won't sync? What if a mover is acting up? What if you don't have enough power to run your 'normal' show? It's all about the what-ifs? If you're truly playing the professional/corporate shows that you claim to be, you'll certainly understand that there always must be a Plan B and that you have to roll with the punches sometimes. You should also be able to pay for a dedicated light tech at that gig level to help ensure professional results. Yes, I occasionally run lightshows with timecode, but even beforehand in every venue I usually need to make slight adjustments to the programming. If you set the board and cuing up correctly this isn't a big deal, but something that needs to be done. Think about it, would an audience member really want a Mac 2K beaming them in the face from 20ft away? Of course not, so depending on venue layout I often need to redefine the limits of where I want my movers scanning and where I don't - all before the show starts and tweaking as things progress.
So where am I going with all this rambling? You need to realize that adaptability is crucial for both lights and sound depending on your situation and location. That's what makes the difference between a cheap-looking DJ light show and a professional one. Not necessarily what brand name is on the product or how many you have, but it's about knowing the right tool for the job and how effectively what you have is being used. Hopefully you're willing to understand this crucial aspect of running a mobile operation.
Now that the 'criticize' part of this novel is done, here's the constructive part: If you really must build a one-rig-fits-all show, have a look at the Martin Rush series as well as the Chauvet Rogue series. Beam fixtures will be nearly useless without fog or haze, so since we're talking worst-case here, stick with washes since they'll look fine with or without haze. Clay Paky also makes some very interesting movers that can do pixel mapping and other neat eye candy effects. American DJ and Blizzard offer more budget-friendly solutions. I really hope this helps you out.
-Jeff
First and foremost Thank you Jeff for responding again! :) I'm sorry that I haven't been clear enough. I'll try to clear some things up.
First I will have a dedicated FOH tech and another tech to help with the lights and video. Of course we know you have to set adjust beam angles and positions on every gig because your setup space isn't always the same. Since Qlab is the hub of our show one racked Mac Mini will run that and probably the lights. The other will run the video and we have another one running an identical show on Qlab for rundundancy. Our FOH guy and Lighting/Video tech will have hybrid jobs no doubt and we'll have to suss out exactly who's in charge of what during a show.
As far as power, you are right..Sometimes you show up and there's a couple 20 AMP Circuits only...More often in Wedding type venues. For corporate jobs which are usually in big hotel ballrooms in the Orlando Market where I'm located there's usually 4-6 20 amp circuits.
for the moving heads in the back I was thinking we could put them on something like these, 8 feet up.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/KAmouUONtSJzkxJr-uhEwaUD-ett_N0HwOesWKFx4OzMi_yw737cxrHrRpgHdTtxKOlH7i-FSRSrnENHIHpU=w426-h240-n)
Generally setup time is 1-2 hours. Sometimes we get more time but we would like to design the system so between 9 of us, we could have it set up in under 2 hours. Everything rolling out of the trailer in cases, washes on trees that can be hung fast. etc.
As far as Haze goes, most Hotels do not allow it. So you are saying Moving head spots are out? Go for the moving Washes?
Again I apologize if in my ignorance I wasn't clear enough in my intentions and I REALLY appreciate the advice from everyone! I'll leave you with some general pics of what I'd like our light show to look like.
(http://www.paulgreenlight.com/wp-content/themes/catalyst/timthumb.php?src=http://www.paulgreenlight.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/IMG_7518.jpg&h=272&w=410&zc=1&q=92)
(http://livedesignonline.com/site-files/livedesignonline.com/files/uploads/2013/12/Robe%20Christ%20Fellowship%20Worship%20Centre%20IMG_5609-m.jpg)
(http://www.worshipideas.com/wp-content/uploads/lighting.jpg)
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Fantastic, the pictures really help out with all this! I'm glad to hear too that you'll have someone besides yourself helping out with the operations side of things. I've just seen way too many musicians try to perform while running their own tech. It works okay on the small scale (sometimes) but not so much on the larger scale. So yes, what you're picturing above is definitely getting heavy duty. Power-wise of course you need to juggle the available power between lights, sound, and any other onstage equipment that you might be using. I can say with full certainty that all of the systems you pictured are using far more than the power you have available, but that's what growth is for :)
The Trusst product in your first picture is exactly what I mentioned above as being a truss totem. I just didn't catch that you were referring to the kind that screw/pin together to form the box versus the more common welded box truss. Those will definitely work for what you're looking to do. While not as strong or versatile as the standard box truss seen in the other pictures you posted they're a lot more friendly for storage. I'd just keep the weight of the mover going on top in mind when using this product. With no cross bracing and less overall weight of the truss itself I'd stick to the smaller options for movers up there versus a beast - quickly panning a heavy mover on a truss with no cross bracing will cause a noticeable 'wiggle'.
Setup time really depends on exactly how much you have to load in, rig, power, test, and adjust. I assure you the pictured systems with line arrays took much longer than two hours to set up! I see no reason why you couldn't do a half dozen totems, up lights, and other miscellaneous effects in two hours though, especially since you'll have help moving the gear.
You are absolutely right that most hotels do not allow haze. Sometimes you get lucky, but usually you don't. Every picture you shared has some amount of haze in it. Some of the very bright beam fixtures such as the Clay Paky Sharpy can sometimes be seen if there's enough general dust in the air, but I wouldn't count on it. So look at those pictures and imagine you can't see the beam in the air... That's pretty much what your clients would see from your system without any haze. Sure, you'll light up the walls and ceiling a bit and they'll see the shapes moving around the room, but a selection of wash and pixel-style fixtures will saturate the room with much more light and color. You'll also get much more consistent performance out of the system regardless of atmosphere and how much (or little) control you have of ambient light. There are some 'hybrid' fixtures on the market too - maybe that's something you should be looking towards? That way you can at least adapt a little when haze is allowed without needing to swap fixtures around or do serious reprogramming.
If you mean Orlando as in Orlando Florida, then there is no shortage of rental houses and dealers in the area that will be more than happy to rent or demo gear for you before you buy. Many times I've walked in thinking I was going to buy one thing and the demo totally changed my mind, always for the better! They can also help you out with making the purchase when the time comes (MUCH safer for your investment than buying on ebay) and they'll be there to help you with the ever so important aftermarket service and repairs when needed. I work just east of the city so I can certainly recommend the network of Orlando dealers for having top-notch support. I'm glad to see that we're finally getting somewhere with helping you choose the right equipment for your needs. As you know it's a big investment, so definitely worth the time to make sure it's done right!
-Jeff
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Here's my light rig. Controlled by DMXIS.
http://youtu.be/JnbvcdGOG1I
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z398/robare99/band/6893E1AD-D456-4413-A753-460365B2BFA1_1.jpg) (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/robare99/media/band/6893E1AD-D456-4413-A753-460365B2BFA1_1.jpg.html)
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z398/robare99/band/1D7E59A3-D670-4253-A836-9006EB539B5B.jpg) (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/robare99/media/band/1D7E59A3-D670-4253-A836-9006EB539B5B.jpg.html)
Can be scaled up or down depending on the room, the available power, the headroom. Uses 2 20A outlets.
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z398/robare99/band/8E529C68-88F9-459D-95DC-7DB64EE8AA5B.jpg) (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/robare99/media/band/8E529C68-88F9-459D-95DC-7DB64EE8AA5B.jpg.html)
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z398/robare99/band/F2BFAA72-275E-4B93-93D6-72F452753773.jpg) (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/robare99/media/band/F2BFAA72-275E-4B93-93D6-72F452753773.jpg.html)
Costs:
Lights:
11 - 3NX = $2750
4 - Fab5 = $1000
4- Minimac Profiles = $2200
4 - Spot Duos = $2600
2 - Stands = $600
2 - 8' truss = $400
DMXIS = $300
Cases: $1000
Safety & DMX Cables = $150
--------------------------
Subtotal: $11,000
GST: $550
Total: $11,550
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Here's my light rig. Controlled by DMXIS.
http://youtu.be/JnbvcdGOG1I
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z398/robare99/band/6893E1AD-D456-4413-A753-460365B2BFA1_1.jpg) (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/robare99/media/band/6893E1AD-D456-4413-A753-460365B2BFA1_1.jpg.html)
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z398/robare99/band/1D7E59A3-D670-4253-A836-9006EB539B5B.jpg) (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/robare99/media/band/1D7E59A3-D670-4253-A836-9006EB539B5B.jpg.html)
Can be scaled up or down depending on the room, the available power, the headroom. Uses 2 20A outlets.
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z398/robare99/band/8E529C68-88F9-459D-95DC-7DB64EE8AA5B.jpg) (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/robare99/media/band/8E529C68-88F9-459D-95DC-7DB64EE8AA5B.jpg.html)
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z398/robare99/band/F2BFAA72-275E-4B93-93D6-72F452753773.jpg) (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/robare99/media/band/F2BFAA72-275E-4B93-93D6-72F452753773.jpg.html)
Costs:
Lights:
11 - 3NX = $2750
4 - Fab5 = $1000
4- Minimac Profiles = $2200
4 - Spot Duos = $2600
2 - Stands = $600
2 - 8' truss = $400
DMXIS = $300
Cases: $1000
Safety & DMX Cables = $150
--------------------------
Subtotal: $11,000
GST: $550
Total: $11,550
Nice stuff. I've seen your stuff on Harmony Central too. I noticed that you don't have much in the way of front lighting though. Do you find you don't need it?
I considered the crank stand trussing in the back as well but since our stanges will at the smallest be at least 2 times the longer than the one in the picture the logistics of it dictated against.
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There is no reason with the correct crank stands you can not suspend a 30' or even 40' stick of truss.
If you don't want truss on stands I understand, but don't think it isn't achievable.
Do you have a budget? I ask because I recently spent about 100k putting just lighting fixtures in a 200 seat venue. I guess you don't have that kind of money and that's ok, but it will limit what you can achieve.
I recommend you stop thinking specific gear for the moment. Look at you set list. Think about the moods you want to create for every song. Then look at colors, beam shapes, make little sketches that achieve those moods, then you start to look at what your requirements are for fixtures. I need X of sharpie type beams, I need X wash units. Then you start to look at where those lights need to go, and how to support them. Then you have to find lights whose beams and brightness are sufficient for your use. If you need a big wide wash light with a 35 degree field angle in order to light the band, then it's going to limit and change your options. Then you end up with an equipment list and a plot and can start getting gear.
In reality I don't expect you to necessarily go through that design exercise. I think your show would be much better for it, but it's also the work a qualified designer would do for you... And it's not easy for those they don't have the experience.
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Nice stuff. I've seen your stuff on Harmony Central too. I noticed that you don't have much in the way of front lighting though. Do you find you don't need it?
I considered the crank stand trussing in the back as well but since our stanges will at the smallest be at least 2 times the longer than the one in the picture the logistics of it dictated against.
For lights on the band, If it's a smaller stage we get by with one Blizzard Hotbox RGBAW per side. Amber at 100% white at 80%. I keep the same front lights for all the scenes so it stays constant. I'm able to back off the lights on the band with a "volume"pedal so it works out pretty good.
On a bigger stage I use 2 Blizzard Fab5's per side on a T-Bar. Sometimes in smaller places a Tbar stand is too much of a tripping hazard. Here's the 2 fab5's, with the band in silhouette.
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z398/robare99/band/70D2E355-963D-420B-B573-FA144EED477D.jpg) (http://s1187.photobucket.com/user/robare99/media/band/70D2E355-963D-420B-B573-FA144EED477D.jpg.html)
http://youtu.be/3gsTCzK26kg
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There is no reason with the correct crank stands you can not suspend a 30' or even 40' stick of truss.
If you don't want truss on stands I understand, but don't think it isn't achievable.
Do you have a budget? I ask because I recently spent about 100k putting just lighting fixtures in a 200 seat venue. I guess you don't have that kind of money and that's ok, but it will limit what you can achieve.
I recommend you stop thinking specific gear for the moment. Look at you set list. Think about the moods you want to create for every song. Then look at colors, beam shapes, make little sketches that achieve those moods, then you start to look at what your requirements are for fixtures. I need X of sharpie type beams, I need X wash units. Then you start to look at where those lights need to go, and how to support them. Then you have to find lights whose beams and brightness are sufficient for your use. If you need a big wide wash light with a 35 degree field angle in order to light the band, then it's going to limit and change your options. Then you end up with an equipment list and a plot and can start getting gear.
In reality I don't expect you to necessarily go through that design exercise. I think your show would be much better for it, but it's also the work a qualified designer would do for you... And it's not easy for those they don't have the experience.
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Thanks Calien....
I totally agree with everything you said so I guess I must be learning something!!! ;) That said, so far we went to a stage and lighting dealer here in Orlando and they helped us design a system within our budget that they thought would work for our given needs. We were going to see what they came back with then take it to a few other dealers/designers and see what they say. Now these places are all dealers/designers so they have a vested interest in us buying their gear. I'd Love to consult with an independent LD in the area, design the system based our our stage plot THEN take it to the dealers to see who's the best fit. Know anyone in Central FL?
As for our Budget, to be honest, no one that I have seen is doing anything remotely pro level for a light show unless they rent and the event is big. The typical corporate/Wedding band around here has a few movers IF THAT and some wash. The show MIGHT be running via DMXIS but it's probably just on sound activation. Really lame...We have 15 feet of video wall behind us so that adds some wash too...We're trying to stay at $10K for lights. We could afford more but there's really no upside starting out. We can only afford one lighting tech and one FOH sound tech to start and there are power and set up time concerns as well. So there's the box. Surprisingly, I've found a multitude of alternatives so far within our budget that should get us started...Basic Wash, some movers to create energy and excitement, a couple effect lights for dance Floor, drum riser, uplighting for 4 Glo Totems on back wall and 2 out front, 6 moving fixtures, bars on drum riser, something on the floor.. Nothing too crazy but it should do the trick and set up fairly fast and easily.
We have plotted the stage out, planned the video, have space for the lights, etc...It's really planned out extensively because our whole show is planned out. Equipment, Audio, Video, Lights, logistics, cases, Truck, trailer, yada yada...
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This system can fit in places with a tall ceiling ie over 10', or can be stacked in a "T" shape that is about 7' tall to the top of the lights. It can be run off of 1 20amp circuit if we only use 1 hazer, and loads in in about 20 minutes with 4 people doing the grunt work. Then our LD cables it and gets it up and running within an hour or so.
Really, 4 people carry it in. 2 build it, 1 cables it. All in all its about a 1.5 hour process working at a leisurely pace.
Here it is tall:
http://youtu.be/QGLWjU0PuCs
Here it is short:
http://youtu.be/7zxzAsEyhis
Here it is being used with a bigger "pro" rig:
http://youtu.be/x2Xq58hN4hk
Those are platinum beam 5r's and Mac101's on the rest of the stage. So our little rig certainly has enough brightness to compete with some of the best.
Our rig is comprised of 8 pieces of Global Truss F34 at 1.5 meters (5 foot) on 4 bases. I did this so we could break it up in those places with low ceilings.
I have 4 pieces of 2" sch40 pipe that are 5' long. These are what the lights hang from on the tall setup. I just got this at home depot and cut 2 pipes in half to get the sections.
The 16 Irradiant RGBA bars stay mounted inside the truss and stay cabled. Saves a lot of time.
The 8 Chauvet Legend 412's ride in a case and get hung every show.
This show does require 2 universes if you run it like we do. Those led pixel bars eat up a lot of channels, but the effect is worth it.
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I'm not sure if 10k will get you everything you want. It certainly could, but you might have to compromise on a few things (either output, brand name, fixture count, etc.). Any decent, name-brand mover (even ADJ and Chauvet) will start in the 1k/ea. range and go up quickly. There are cheaper options of course, but you'll be sacrificing output or brand name. Something along the lines of the ADJ Inno Spot Pro would be the lowest output I'd recommend for what I think you're looking to do (assuming you use haze), and those are still just shy of 1k/ea. That's 6k right there, plus at least another 2k for your totems. Add another $500-1k for clamps, cables, cheap cases, etc., and that leaves you less than 1k for anything else. DJ-grade lighting isn't a bad thing, and you can read all about the pros and cons of buying ebay lights around here. You said yourself that it's hard to justify spending more when your competition has nothing (and I agree), so I'm sure your clients will be thrilled to see a nice show, even if it's a mix of DJ lighting and ebay lights.
As far as local LDs to discuss this with - you're talking to one! There are plenty of others here too, many of which have far more experience than I do, so I welcome engaging the forum to get a broad range of perspectives. Why not post a picture of your plot and see what kind of suggestions you get?
Tim, not to derail this thread or anything, but how are your 2" pipes attached to the box truss? Is the pipe anything special such as The Light Source product or is it just generic Home Depot pipe, and would that be strong enough to hold a 50 pound mover on each side?
-Jeff
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I'm not sure if 10k will get you everything you want. It certainly could, but you might have to compromise on a few things (either output, brand name, fixture count, etc.). Any decent, name-brand mover (even ADJ and Chauvet) will start in the 1k/ea. range and go up quickly. There are cheaper options of course, but you'll be sacrificing output or brand name. Something along the lines of the ADJ Inno Spot Pro would be the lowest output I'd recommend for what I think you're looking to do (assuming you use haze), and those are still just shy of 1k/ea. That's 6k right there, plus at least another 2k for your totems. Add another $500-1k for clamps, cables, cheap cases, etc., and that leaves you less than 1k for anything else. DJ-grade lighting isn't a bad thing, and you can read all about the pros and cons of buying ebay lights around here. You said yourself that it's hard to justify spending more when your competition has nothing (and I agree), so I'm sure your clients will be thrilled to see a nice show, even if it's a mix of DJ lighting and ebay lights.
As far as local LDs to discuss this with - you're talking to one! There are plenty of others here too, many of which have far more experience than I do, so I welcome engaging the forum to get a broad range of perspectives. Why not post a picture of your plot and see what kind of suggestions you get?
Tim, not to derail this thread or anything, but how are your 2" pipes attached to the box truss? Is the pipe anything special such as The Light Source product or is it just generic Home Depot pipe, and would that be strong enough to hold a 50 pound mover on each side?
-Jeff
Hey Jeff....
Thanks! The dealer here said they can do better than retail from anyone on the web so I have to assume as a package deal paying all at once I'll do better. Here's what I've put together so far.
I'm thinking of Starting with 4 Glo Totems, 2.5 Meter on the back wall, and 2 front left and right.. I can get them for $796.40 for two. So we'll Say $2400. http://www.idjnow.com/2-trusst-glo-totem-2-5.html
To go on top of the outside Totems I want 4 Chauvet Intimidator Wash 350Z's. I can get 2 with case for $1790 So lets say 4 in cases for $3600
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-CVT-INTMWSHZ350X2?src=Y0802G00SRCHCAPN&gclid=Cj0KEQiAhuSzBRDBoZfG56bK9-YBEiQARiPcZfU05T3FYT5YEROirzIHo5mARQ86Bw2xG3wTPezik8AaAolP8P8HAQ
For the inside totems back wall just behind the drummer I want to go with Spots with Gobos for special rotating beam effects, shining Gobos on walls, floors etc. Chauvet Intimidator 355Z, 2 with cases, clamps, cables is $2250 http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Chauvet-DJ-Lighting-2-Intimidator-Spot-355Z-IRC-Moving-Head-Gobo-LED-Spot-Light-Road-Case-DMX-Cables-Clamps-IRC-6-Remote-CHAUVET-PACKAGE-535?utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=GoogleBaseFeed&gclid=Cj0KEQiAhuSzBRDBoZfG56bK9-YBEiQARiPcZbRuMb6vh9QocI4yblZYya3zTKnE2hemtk02byAK_nMaApNl8P8HAQ
Then I was going to grab a dozen Blizzard Hotbox 5 RGBAW Lights. 8 along the back, 2 each totem just under the moving head and 2 each for the front side totems under the movers. The intention is to have a wash for the stage. I can get them online for $200 each so that's $2400 retail.
So at this point i'm at $10,650 without tax but I haven't gone chinese or cheap.
We decided that we want movers on the floor for effect and I love these little Zoom Wash/Beam hybrids. Something like maybe 2 of the ADJ Inno Pocket Z4's. That's another $900 right there. Throw in bar in front of drums, 2 more for the floor each side of the stage front and wedge pars for the Totems $600. A Roadcase for the Blizzard Hotboxes $200 from china (I'm ordering all my cases at once for a HUGE SAVINGS shipped from China. Made right though)...More DMX Cables etc...
So I'll call it around $13K before tax give or take depending on what the dealer can do. We're comfortable with that and as you know it's WAY WAY more than we need but it will compliment our video wall.
Sound reasonable?
We'll call
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Do not pay advertised web prices. Every dealer should be able to do better than that. Many dealers give better pricing the less after sale support they think you will need so if you find a local LD that hooks you up and convinces a dealer to extend his pricing to you, you're set.
It doesn't hurt to let dealers know you are quoting around either... One may give you an amazing deal because they want to screw another dealer. You don't need to know about the politics just take the good pricing. Don't however shop a quote asking others to do better. If you do it often it will get around and dealers won't like you anymore... Anyway these are lots of generalizations. Ymmv.
Finally most Chauvet ships out of Florida I believe so in theory due to reduced shipping, Florida should have the best pricing in the US... They may have a west coast warehouse too.
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Tim, not to derail this thread or anything, but how are your 2" pipes attached to the box truss? Is the pipe anything special such as The Light Source product or is it just generic Home Depot pipe, and would that be strong enough to hold a 50 pound mover on each side?
-Jeff
Of course. I could hang from the stuff and barely move it. Schedule 40 pipe is the kind of stuff that pipe and base stands are made of. In the theatre we would hang a few hundred pounds of lekos off of one of these stands. Its basic steel water/gas pipe you can find at the hardware store. They will usually cut and thread it for you if you wish.
I'm using a half-coupler with a global spigot thingy in it. Two of those in the end of the truss and its solid.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61C9w9BQrhL._SX522_.jpg)
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Closer shot
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FWIW, "pipe" is measured based on its nominal inside diameter: 1 1/2" steel pipe measures 1.9"'o.d. Tubing is measured by its o.d., irrespective of wall thickness. 1.9"'= 48.26 mm; 2.0" = 50.8 mm. 1 1/2" pipe is the standard batten in a so-called legitimate theater (in North America, at least).
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Hey Jeff....
Thanks! The dealer here said they can do better than retail from anyone on the web so I have to assume as a package deal paying all at once I'll do better. Here's what I've put together so far.
I'm thinking of Starting with 4 Glo Totems, 2.5 Meter on the back wall, and 2 front left and right.. I can get them for $796.40 for two. So we'll Say $2400. http://www.idjnow.com/2-trusst-glo-totem-2-5.html
To go on top of the outside Totems I want 4 Chauvet Intimidator Wash 350Z's. I can get 2 with case for $1790 So lets say 4 in cases for $3600
http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-CVT-INTMWSHZ350X2?src=Y0802G00SRCHCAPN&gclid=Cj0KEQiAhuSzBRDBoZfG56bK9-YBEiQARiPcZfU05T3FYT5YEROirzIHo5mARQ86Bw2xG3wTPezik8AaAolP8P8HAQ
For the inside totems back wall just behind the drummer I want to go with Spots with Gobos for special rotating beam effects, shining Gobos on walls, floors etc. Chauvet Intimidator 355Z, 2 with cases, clamps, cables is $2250 http://www.hifisoundconnection.com/Chauvet-DJ-Lighting-2-Intimidator-Spot-355Z-IRC-Moving-Head-Gobo-LED-Spot-Light-Road-Case-DMX-Cables-Clamps-IRC-6-Remote-CHAUVET-PACKAGE-535?utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=GoogleBaseFeed&gclid=Cj0KEQiAhuSzBRDBoZfG56bK9-YBEiQARiPcZbRuMb6vh9QocI4yblZYya3zTKnE2hemtk02byAK_nMaApNl8P8HAQ
Then I was going to grab a dozen Blizzard Hotbox 5 RGBAW Lights. 8 along the back, 2 each totem just under the moving head and 2 each for the front side totems under the movers. The intention is to have a wash for the stage. I can get them online for $200 each so that's $2400 retail.
So at this point i'm at $10,650 without tax but I haven't gone chinese or cheap.
We decided that we want movers on the floor for effect and I love these little Zoom Wash/Beam hybrids. Something like maybe 2 of the ADJ Inno Pocket Z4's. That's another $900 right there. Throw in bar in front of drums, 2 more for the floor each side of the stage front and wedge pars for the Totems $600. A Roadcase for the Blizzard Hotboxes $200 from china (I'm ordering all my cases at once for a HUGE SAVINGS shipped from China. Made right though)...More DMX Cables etc...
So I'll call it around $13K before tax give or take depending on what the dealer can do. We're comfortable with that and as you know it's WAY WAY more than we need but it will compliment our video wall.
Sound reasonable?
We'll call
Yep, that sounds about right. I wouldn't go for anything 'less' than what you mentioned above, but I think you made some nice choices on the movers. The Intimidator Wash 350Zs are exactly the type of light I hoped you would choose. They're very effective both with and without haze. The 90w LED in the Intimidator Spots won't disappoint either and should work nicely with the 350s. The Hotboxes are also another solid choice for what you're looking to do, so I think you're just about all set! The ADJ Inno Pocket Z4's won't compare in output to the other units you've chosen, but they'll add some movement to your show, and that can certainly be a good thing. I agree with the others though - never pay retail for any of this! Shop around for quotes and see what people can do for you. Of course how hard of a bargain you drive is up to you! Package deals will probably get you the best price if you can find a dealer that carries all the manufacturers you're looking to buy from, but that shouldn't be too hard. There are plenty of dealers on this website too that might be able to help you out.
Of course. I could hang from the stuff and barely move it. Schedule 40 pipe is the kind of stuff that pipe and base stands are made of. In the theatre we would hang a few hundred pounds of lekos off of one of these stands. Its basic steel water/gas pipe you can find at the hardware store. They will usually cut and thread it for you if you wish.
I'm using a half-coupler with a global spigot thingy in it. Two of those in the end of the truss and its solid.
Thanks for the details!
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Yep, that sounds about right. I wouldn't go for anything 'less' than what you mentioned above, but I think you made some nice choices on the movers. The Intimidator Wash 350Zs are exactly the type of light I hoped you would choose. They're very effective both with and without haze. The 90w LED in the Intimidator Spots won't disappoint either and should work nicely with the 350s. The Hotboxes are also another solid choice for what you're looking to do, so I think you're just about all set! The ADJ Inno Pocket Z4's won't compare in output to the other units you've chosen, but they'll add some movement to your show, and that can certainly be a good thing. I agree with the others though - never pay retail for any of this! Shop around for quotes and see what people can do for you. Of course how hard of a bargain you drive is up to you! Package deals will probably get you the best price if you can find a dealer that carries all the manufacturers you're looking to buy from, but that shouldn't be too hard. There are plenty of dealers on this website too that might be able to help you out.
Thanks for the details!
Jeff,
This dealer is suggesting the Rogue Series R1 stuff over the intimidators. The seem comparable and the cost is close. Would the Chauvet Professional Series lights be worth it over the Intimidators here?
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Jeff,
This dealer is suggesting the Rogue Series R1 stuff over the intimidators. The seem comparable and the cost is close. Would the Chauvet Professional Series lights be worth it over the Intimidators here?
It depends on what exactly you're looking for. I would agree that in general, the Intimidator Series of products are at the upper end of 'DJ Class' whereas the Rogue R1 Series is closer to entry-level pro gear. Of course, as long as the rig is reliable and your clients are happy it doesn't matter what 'grade' of equipment you're using! So as far as comparisons go, if we're talking the Intimidator Spot 355Z vs the Rogue R1 Spot, you'll see a noticeable improvement with the R1. Aside from a second gobo wheel and motorized focus, the 150w LED on the R1 will far outperform the 90w LED on the Intimidator. The Intimidator zooms (only 7 degrees though) and the R1 has an iris - pretty much a wash from a beam perspective, except the zoom doesn't restrict light output or clip gobos. I'd vote for the R1 if the price is close.
The Intimidator Wash 350Z vs the Rogue R1 Wash is a bit more interesting of a comparison. For starters the Intimidator features 20w LEDs whereas the R1 only uses 15w. Not a huge difference in output at that level, but side by side you'd probably notice it. Both units have very similar zoom ranges, so no real difference there, but you'll notice the R1 uses a 'bubble' lens whereas the Intimidator uses individual lenses for each LED. The huge bonus in having individual lenses is that your 'pixel' effects will be much more defined and easier to see from a distance. The bubble lens almost obscures such effects. Honestly, I'd vote for the Intimidator on this one. I think it's more in line with what you're looking for, has higher output, and does the eye candy effects better.
Maybe others on here will bring up a point I missed, but that's the direction I'd go in your situation. Don't feel obligated to buy all your lights from one series or one manufacturer. One thing I did forget to mention in my last post is that what you're spec-ing won't fit on a single 20A circuit. You'd have to add everything up to see where your power budget is now, but I'm guessing that all of this is at least 2 circuits. If power is as tight as we think, that'd be the only rational I could think of to choose the 90w Intimidator Spot over the 150w R1 Spot. Hope that helps!
-Jeff
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One thing I did forget to mention in my last post is that what you're spec-ing won't fit on a single 20A circuit. You'd have to add everything up to see where your power budget is now, but I'm guessing that all of this is at least 2 circuits. If power is as tight as we think, that'd be the only rational I could think of to choose the 90w Intimidator Spot over the 150w R1 Spot. Hope that helps!
-Jeff
Intimidator Spot = 309w, 3.2A
R1 Spot = 225w, 2.0A
The Rogue Spot looks very cool - I would go with it if you have the funds.
The weight is considerably more though (R1 = 39 lb vs 355Z @ 27 lb)
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Intimidator Spot = 309w, 3.2A
R1 Spot = 225w, 2.0A
Very interesting (and correct, according to Chauvet's website). I wonder why the Intimidators draw about 100w more than the R1s while using a considerably less powerful LED?
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Intimidator Spot = 309w, 3.2A
R1 Spot = 225w, 2.0A
The Rogue Spot looks very cool - I would go with it if you have the funds.
The weight is considerably more though (R1 = 39 lb vs 355Z @ 27 lb)
I know they have a new type of bulb they are using and they say smaller wattage is actually brighter than the older bulbs at higher wattage. That said here's the current specs on the Intimidator Spot 350.
• DMX Channels: 8 or 14
• DMX Connectors: 3-pin XLR
• Pan and Tilt: 540°/270°
• Pan and Tilt Ranges: 540°, 360°, 180° pan/270°, 180°, 90° tilt
• Colors: 8 + white, split colors, continuous scroll at variable speeds
• Gobos: 7 + open, rotating, interchangeable, indexing, slot-n-lock, continuous scroll at variable speeds
• Gobo Size: 24 mm outside, 20 mm image, 1.1 mm max thickness
• Light Source: 1 LED (white) 75 W (17 A), 50,000 hours life expectancy
• Strobe Rate: 0 to 20 Hz
• Zoom Angle (manual): 12° to 17°
• Illuminance (12°): 9,490 lux @ 2 m
• Illuminance (17°): 4,670 lux @ 2 m
• Power Linking: 3 units @ 120 V; 7 units @ 230 V
• Input Voltage: 100 to 240 VAC, 50/60 Hz (auto-ranging)
• Power and Current: 272 W, 2.2 A @ 120 V, 60 Hz
• Power and Current: 285 W, 1.2 A @ 230 V, 50 Hz
• Weight: 22.7 lb (10.3 kg)
• Size: 10.6 x 13.4 x 15.4 in (268 x 340 x 392 mm)
• Approvals: CE
However, the one I was interested in was the355Z because of the special Wedding Gobo package...THAT baby looks powerful.
• DMX Channels: 9 or 15
• DMX Connectors: 3-pin XLR
• Pan and Tilt: 540°/270°
• Pan and Tilt Ranges: 540°, 360°, 180° pan/270°, 180°, 90° tilt
• Colors: 8 + white, split colors, continuous scroll at variable speeds
• Gobos: 7 + open (5 metal + 2 glass), rotating, interchangeable, indexing, slot-n-lock, continuous scroll at variable speeds
• Gobo Size: 24 mm outside, 20 mm image, 1.1 mm max thickness
• Light Source: 1 LED (white) 90 W (3.2 A), 50,000 hours life expectancy
• Strobe Rate: 0 to 23 Hz
• Zoom Angle (motorized): 10° to 17°
• Illuminance (10°): 35,225 lux @ 2 m
• Illuminance (17°): 11,800 lux @ 2 m
• Power Linking: 4 units @ 120 V; 7 units @ 230 V
• Input Voltage: 100 to 240 VAC, 50/60 Hz (auto-ranging)
• Power and Current: 309 W, 3.2 A @ 120 V, 60 Hz
• Power and Current: 283 W, 1.6 A @ 230 V, 50 Hz
• Weight: 27.4 lb (12.4 kg)
• Size: 13.4 x 9.7 x 18 in (340 x 248 x 456 mm)
• Optional Controllers: IRC-6
• Approvals: CE
But yea, I mean the moving heads will eat up a 20A Circuit and the washes and small movers will use another. Our Video, computers and board use another. Then I was thinking Subs one and Main speakers another. The subs are 1000Watt and the mains close to the same. Am I wrong here. My agent said for the bigger bands, he asks for 4-6 circuits, so I'm right at 5. However with weddings, I don't think I ever used more than 3 in another band. I can see potential problems and having to fit the lights on one circuit.
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I know they have a new type of bulb they are using and they say smaller wattage is actually brighter than the older bulbs at higher wattage.
That's a very situational condition. You may be thinking of the newer short arc lamps like the 5r and 7r, and of course LED is it's own separate entity, though yes, both tend to produce more light than the equivalent 'conventional' discharge lamp (or equal light for less wattage). In your case, all the units you're considering are LED, so it should be a pretty straightforward comparison.
I do see some interesting numbers in the specs Chauvet provides... First of all, I'll point out that the motorized zoom on the 355Z is a handy improvement over the manual zoom on the 350. So to start with the Intimidator 350 - 75W LED, 272W total consumption. If the LED burns up about 75W as advertised, where does the other 200W go? I can't imagine that even a DJ light has such terrible efficiency! At least the voltage/amperage/wattage roughly adds up. Something seems off on the 355Z though - 3.2A at 120v isn't 309W... More like 384W. In fairness, the 350 doesn't add up exactly either, but it's much closer and more believable (despite inefficient). You'll also notice that the 90W LED on the 355Z has 3.2A in parenthesis but the 350 quotes 17A with the 75W LED. Now, in all fairness they could be being driven at a different voltage, but still... All you care about is what's being pulled out of the wall, but something here isn't adding up. Pulling almost 400W from a 90W LED fixture sounds highly suspect. My 'old school' 150w discharge movers only draw about 185W at the wall... I wouldn't have doubted the 300+ wattage to be from the R1, but certainly not from the Intimidator!
But yea, I mean the moving heads will eat up a 20A Circuit and the washes and small movers will use another. Our Video, computers and board use another. Then I was thinking Subs one and Main speakers another. The subs are 1000Watt and the mains close to the same. Am I wrong here. My agent said for the bigger bands, he asks for 4-6 circuits, so I'm right at 5. However with weddings, I don't think I ever used more than 3 in another band. I can see potential problems and having to fit the lights on one circuit.
The best way I've figured out how to group lighting together is to actually measure the power consumption from each unit. As you can see, specs can't always be trusted - over the years I've noticed an alarming number of 'typos' in manuals and spec sheets... A basic volt/watt/amp meter will cost you about $20 and will tell you right away how many watts your mover is actually pulling. Better meters cost more, but my cheap one has suited me well. Sound is a little trickier. While I do run a sound system of my own it's small chips compared to some of the other true experts on this forum, so I'll leave that answer to them. My amateur opinion, assuming two subs and two tops, would be that you can have all four together on a circuit so long as you don't turn it up that high. If you want to give yourself some margin or expect to be running into the red quite frequently, then yes, I'd split them. I can promise that all your lighting won't fit onto one circuit though, hence we're right back where we started with either being able to scale the rig to fit the gig or being happy with a smaller system that can happily run on a single circuit.
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I can promise that all your lighting won't fit onto one circuit though, hence we're right back where we started with either being able to scale the rig to fit the gig or being happy with a smaller system that can happily run on a single circuit.
Yea I can see how I'm going to have to set up alternate scenes with less lights scaled to fit on one circuit. PA, Computers/Video and Lights in a pinch..Probably can make that work. Don't see how I can do the show we envision on less than 3 though scaled down. I feel more comfortable splitting the PA up as well so 4 is a comfort zone but for a low volume wedding one for PA should work....OR...I could just run 4 movers, or smaller 60 watters like my last band.....Might work.
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We run 16 led bars, 8 movers, 4 200 watt led blinders, and a hazer on one 20 amp circuit all the time.
Those figures will be "maximum possible" amp draw. When the psu is filling its caps plus every light on full and every motor running full tilt.
You'll never see that kind of draw under normal use.
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We run 16 led bars, 8 movers, 4 200 watt led blinders, and a hazer on one 20 amp circuit all the time.
Those figures will be "maximum possible" amp draw. When the psu is filling its caps plus every light on full and every motor running full tilt.
You'll never see that kind of draw under normal use.
I wondered about that. Reading this thread made me worry I was living on the edge. I run my JBL PRX PA, 5 or 6 powered monitors, stage power, and a small LED light show - all on (1) standard 15 amp breaker, sometimes at the end of a 100 ft cable.
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Reading this thread made me worry I was living on the edge. I run my JBL PRX PA, 5 or 6 powered monitors, stage power, and a small LED light show - all on (1) standard 15 amp breaker, sometimes at the end of a 100 ft cable.
I wouldn't necessarily say that's living on the edge, but I wouldn't call it best practice either. I'd at least try to get the lights and sound on separate circuits whenever possible, but on the flip side, after learning the hard way enough times I try to be conservative when loading circuits!
Those figures will be "maximum possible" amp draw. When the psu is filling its caps plus every light on full and every motor running full tilt.
You'll never see that kind of draw under normal use.
Right, so wouldn't the 'real world' consumption of these units be much closer to the wattage of their LED, especially given that these aren't additive mixing units? I still can't see a 75w basic mover pulling almost 300w though, despite being a rather instantaneous draw versus average consumption.
So reading back through all of this, it looks like the OP is considering the following system:
2x Intimidator Spot 355Z
4x Chauvet Intimidator Wash 350Z
12x Blizzard Hotboxs
2x Inno Pocket Z4
Misc. other effects
Yeah, after looking that over I'd agree with you Tim that this can probably fit on a single circuit. For some reason I was thinking 6 of each mover listed above... I'd still probably split this into 2 circuits if available, but it's much more do-able on one than what I was envisioning. Worst case just use a few less Hotboxes and you'll definitely be good. I still suggest that Sean gets himself a volt/amp/watt meter if he didn't already and measure the units' consumption himself to see how much margin he'd have. I've always found it handy to know that sort of thing, especially when power gets tight!
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I wouldn't necessarily say that's living on the edge, but I wouldn't call it best practice either. I'd at least try to get the lights and sound on separate circuits whenever possible, but on the flip side, after learning the hard way enough times I try to be conservative when loading circuits!
Right, so wouldn't the 'real world' consumption of these units be much closer to the wattage of their LED, especially given that these aren't additive mixing units? I still can't see a 75w basic mover pulling almost 300w though, despite being a rather instantaneous draw versus average consumption.
So reading back through all of this, it looks like the OP is considering the following system:
2x Intimidator Spot 355Z
4x Chauvet Intimidator Wash 350Z
12x Blizzard Hotboxs
2x Inno Pocket Z4
Misc. other effects
Yeah, after looking that over I'd agree with you Tim that this can probably fit on a single circuit. For some reason I was thinking 6 of each mover listed above... I'd still probably split this into 2 circuits if available, but it's much more do-able on one than what I was envisioning. Worst case just use a few less Hotboxes and you'll definitely be good. I still suggest that Sean gets himself a volt/amp/watt meter if he didn't already and measure the units' consumption himself to see how much margin he'd have. I've always found it handy to know that sort of thing, especially when power gets tight!
Thanks Jeff, I will absolutely get a meter in my kit!!!
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No worries! This is the one I use when getting benchmarks on fixture consumption:
http://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=pd_sim_469_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=41ygaCtJwVL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160%2C160_&refRID=05DXVK5CHDXFCD82M1Y8
It's not the fanciest thing in the world, but will display watts, volts, and amps along with a few other metrics. They make nicer ones that clamp on the cord instead of plug into it as well as record peak consumption, but you'll spend much more for something like that if you want a good one. For less than $20 it's nice to have a ballpark figure for the 'real world' power consumption of your equipment!
Edit to add that this unit is only good for 120v and 15A. If you prefer one that can do up to 600v and 400A they're out there!
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Sean, I don't see a hazer in your budget. I know you said some hotel / wedding events wont allow it.
IMHO a great hazer is the key to a great light show.
Everyone has opinions on hazers they like. I really like our Martin Jem K1 hazers and they auto clean out at shut off.
They now have a smaller model as well
http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/272110-Martin-Professional-JEM-Hazer-Pro?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=googleps&gclid=Cj0KEQiA-4i0BRCaudDcrrnDi6kBEiQAZSh5f6s_QXsbbkNEfSi5IeW4ippD3NmurcUlL6H-vDFi9bsaAuni8P8HAQ
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Sean, I don't see a hazer in your budget. I know you said some hotel / wedding events wont allow it.
IMHO a great hazer is the key to a great light show.
Everyone has opinions on hazers they like. I really like our Martin Jem K1 hazers and they auto clean out at shut off.
They now have a smaller model as well
http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/272110-Martin-Professional-JEM-Hazer-Pro?utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=googleps&gclid=Cj0KEQiA-4i0BRCaudDcrrnDi6kBEiQAZSh5f6s_QXsbbkNEfSi5IeW4ippD3NmurcUlL6H-vDFi9bsaAuni8P8HAQ
We're definitely going to get one but from what i'm hearing none of the venues that I'll play allow it. I'm sure there will be some outside weddings and events where we can use them. I imagine I should get a couple for outside events though right?
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Right, so wouldn't the 'real world' consumption of these units be much closer to the wattage of their LED, especially given that these aren't additive mixing units? I still can't see a 75w basic mover pulling almost 300w though, despite being a rather instantaneous draw versus average consumption.
In the real world, you would add up the total LED power and then add 10-15 percent for PSU efficiency, and then add a little more for fans and motors. But yeah, a 75 watt led mover would probably run at an average of 100 watts or so all night.
Also, don't be fooled into thinking that just because those are 10 watt cree leds that you are using all ten watts! Most fixtures will under-drive those leds to have a safety margin for their QC. Not every led will take its full rated power, so they don't give it the full beans!