ProSoundWeb Community

Sound Reinforcement - Forums for Live Sound Professionals - Your Displayed Name Must Be Your Real Full Name To Post In The Live Sound Forums => LAB Lounge => Topic started by: Corey Scogin on May 06, 2021, 04:08:42 pm

Title: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Corey Scogin on May 06, 2021, 04:08:42 pm
This question comes up regularly with varying constraints so here's my go at it...

TLDR: What's your favorite portable powered system that rivals the SM80/TH118 combo?

Background: As someone who provides live sound as a side gig / hobby, I have been quite pleased running a Danley SM80/TH118 system for my "larger" :) events. It's an awesome system. However, more and more of my opportunities come in the form of smaller setups like acoustic duos, backyard shows, or small venues where hauling a trailer with an amp rack, heavy cables cases, speaker cases, etc. isn't ideal. Often the venues don't have rollable surface access or they require traversing stairs. A couple powered 12s in padded cases fit nicely in any vehicle, are easy to load in for these types of things, and can be used without subs.

I'd like to simplify my gear and land on a more modular one-size-fits-all-of-my-use-cases solution rather than keeping a separate small system.
I like the clean and detailed sound of the SM80/TH118.
I like the grab & go ability of my cheap powered 12s (ELX112P).
I'd like to find a system that is capable of both tiny events and can be coupled with subs to do at least nearly what the SM80/TH118 can do.

Criteria::
- Sounds roughly as good as the SM80
- Roughly as loud as the SM80 for the times I need something more (or scalable such that it is).
- Powered
- Pole mountable mains
- Tops go plenty low enough for an acoustic duo w/out subs (<70Hz?)
- Matching brand between tops & subs
- Budget is not unlimited. Something in the range of the mentioned Danley gear or less makes sense. I'll entertain any suggestions though.

Any of you have actual experience with the SM80/TH118 and powered systems you'd consider comparable to recommend for the scenario I describe?

I know Iím asking about a sideways or maybe a downward move. As a weekend warrior, this isnít about ROI. Itís about finding an arrangement that hits the sweet spot for me to get out and enjoy doing this more as I get older without fretting about load-in/out as much.

If what I'm asking for is a unicorn, I'll keep the Danley system. In that case, I'll take suggestions for your favorite powered 12" tops to be used standalone as my small rig to replace what I have.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Mike Santarelli on May 06, 2021, 04:39:12 pm
I have Sm80/th118xl so very similar. My powered system that is comparable is rcf tt2a and 9006 subs. 

The tt2a is a great speaker but has some weight to it. They do a great job stand alone. Spec wise the output of tt2a and Sm80 are stated to be the same but I can say with certainty that the sm80 can outrun the tt2a and then some. Both sound great but it will be tough to get the volume the sm80 provides in that price point.


I think youíd be well served with anything in the tt range from rcf or even nx.  It will basically be a sideways move but you will gain the ability to use the box without subs when needed.

Have you looked at any other Danley boxes that can be pole mounted and run stand alone? Sm96 perhaps.

I did a gig the other week with the tt2a th118xl and it was good sounding combo.

Iíd almost say to get something like an evox 12 or es1203 for the smaller stuff.  They are easy to setup and sound really good.  I know you donít want two systems but it may make the most sense and be the most cost effective.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: MattLeonard on May 06, 2021, 05:07:04 pm
I'm having exactly this question - have been thinking about an upgrade from SRX800's to Danley, but a lot of my gigs have all the challenges you described - and I'd love to be able to still setup the rig solo if I had to. I'm primarily outdoor gigs, so wide coverage from a single box is preferable.

At least in terms of tops - I've been wanting to hear (or hear more reviews of):

-db Ingenia IG4t (and the IG3t)
-Presonus CDL12p (not much lighter than the SM80 - but a powered box)
-Meyer UltraX40
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Caleb Dueck on May 06, 2021, 05:17:28 pm
What's your favorite portable powered system that rivals the SM80/TH118 combo?

Besides the RCF TT+ models - also check out the Martin CDD Live 15.
For subwoofers - also check out Bassboss - VS21, ZV28, or for really small gigs the DJ18S. 
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 06, 2021, 05:38:53 pm
A decade and more ago I always wanted the Nexo PS10 rig for this reason. I'm sure it's way outdated now, but it was a great rig back then for scalability.

Also JBL's SRX738 was a(n old) box that I thought could do this reasonably well too. It's an 18"/8"/1.4" three way cabinet which was OK enough on it's own for any coffeeshop gig, but the secret sauce was that the Mid/Hi section was really efficient. In a block of four the 18's would couple enough to match the individual mid/hi sections pretty well. It was usable as a single, 2 splayed, or a 2x2 stack.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Sean Anderson on May 06, 2021, 11:14:37 pm
I do a simple outdoor church service with drums with just my RCF nx45a every so often and they work fantastic above 70hz. Coupled with a couple jtr 212p its a great small system. TT should be better yet, but much heavier. My nx32 don't quite have the impact of the nx45, but sound just as good and are still very loud and balanced speakers. They are at a great weight/size to output ratio and make fantastic monitors in a larger system.

I think a direct replacement with more lows might be either a used set of jtr 3tx or a new set of the 212tx. That would get you a similar output to the sm80.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Rick Powell on May 07, 2021, 12:08:58 am
I have the SM80/TH 118 combo too. My vote for a hi-quality powered portable system just underneath the current combo's capabilities would be for a Yamaha DZR 112 and a JTR powered Captivator 212 per side, you'd get a lot of mileage out of it even though it wouldn't really be "modular". The DZR series acts better as a stand alone than the previous DSR series due to its deeper low end capabilities. I guess you could bring out the TH118 if you needed more bass oomph, or have a spare set of Captivator 212s to double up your low end when needed, but then you'd be somewhere near where you are already at.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Helge A Bentsen on May 07, 2021, 02:21:44 am
Meyer Ultra-X40.
Sounds absolutely fantastic and can get LOUD if needed.
750-LFC if you want a supercompact sub.
900-LFC if you want a compact sub with more low extension and  SPL.

 
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Phil Hatton on May 07, 2021, 03:05:42 am
Another vote for the RCF TT series. I run the older tt22aís with a TTs15 sub. The tops are cumbersome but Iím sure the mk2 versions are lighter. Iíve also just picked up the tt10a and they a great sounding small boxes that produce plenty of volume and sound great when pushed. The sub is a one man lift but not a comfortable one, however a wheel board would sort that out and the sub is fantastic, incredibly musical and controlled.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Brian Bolly on May 07, 2021, 05:16:26 am
Meyer Ultra-X40.
Sounds absolutely fantastic and can get LOUD if needed.
750-LFC if you want a supercompact sub.
900-LFC if you want a compact sub with more low extension and  SPL.

^^^ This.  The X40/750 is about a 1:1 linear system.  If you're looking for the LF rise, the 900-LFC is the ticket.

For even smaller, the Ultra-X20 will get slightly louder than the older UPJ-1P and is slightly smaller than the older UPJunior.  Paired with the 750-LFC sub, it gives you the +4 to +6 dB  LF rise and will get impressively loud for a really tiny PA.  It almost defies the visual.  For reference, we have this exact PA in 3x 24x24x30 cube cases of identical size - 1 sub in each, and 2 Ultra-X22 + hardware in the 3rd. 

For true "coffee house" sized gigs, we have the USW-112P to fill out the last octave below the X22 - a sub that's 45 lbs.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Mark Scrivener on May 07, 2021, 05:37:56 am
I have the SM80/TH 118 combo too. My vote for a hi-quality powered portable system just underneath the current combo's capabilities would be for a Yamaha DZR 112 and a JTR powered Captivator 212 per side, you'd get a lot of mileage out of it even though it wouldn't really be "modular". The DZR series acts better as a stand alone than the previous DSR series due to its deeper low end capabilities. I guess you could bring out the TH118 if you needed more bass oomph, or have a spare set of Captivator 212s to double up your low end when needed, but then you'd be somewhere near where you are already at.

^^^^^^^ This. I have the older DSR112's (need to get some DZR's and push the DSR's to monitor duty) and JBL PRX815XLF subs (was planning on the Captivators before COVID hit). I've used that system for all sorts of gigs indoors and out and always get unsolicited rave comments on the sound. It isn't going to handle a larger crowd like the Danley setup, but it is shockingly good for such a small system and gets stupid loud.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Matthias McCready on May 07, 2021, 08:14:23 am
^^^ This.  The X40/750 is about a 1:1 linear system.  If you're looking for the LF rise, the 900-LFC is the ticket.

For even smaller, the Ultra-X20 will get slightly louder than the older UPJ-1P and is slightly smaller than the older UPJunior.  Paired with the 750-LFC sub, it gives you the +4 to +6 dB  LF rise and will get impressively loud for a really tiny PA.  It almost defies the visual.  For reference, we have this exact PA in 3x 24x24x30 cube cases of identical size - 1 sub in each, and 2 Ultra-X22 + hardware in the 3rd. 

For true "coffee house" sized gigs, we have the USW-112P to fill out the last octave below the X22 - a sub that's 45 lbs.

Nice sounding boxes too. Agreed on the stupid loud for the size. Never been disappointed having to use a Meyer Sound rig  :)

Great place to be if the budget allows.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Steve Litcher on May 07, 2021, 11:40:56 am
If your budget is >$30K, by all means go with the Meyer.

But for bar gigs/small venues/small park crowds, it would be extremely tough to beat a DZR12 over the JTR Captivator C212Pros. Your total investment would be right around $6500 at/near MAP.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Brian Bolly on May 07, 2021, 11:52:34 am
If your budget is >$30K, by all means go with the Meyer.

While it's not Yamaha MI/JTR prices, even the largest Meyer system mentioned of an Ultra-X40/900-LFC per side does not hit $30k list, much less street price.

Also, one of the requirements was matching tops/subs, so a Yamaha+JTR system doesn't fit the requirements.

Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on May 07, 2021, 01:48:13 pm
I'm having exactly this question - have been thinking about an upgrade from SRX800's to Danley, but a lot of my gigs have all the challenges you described - and I'd love to be able to still setup the rig solo if I had to. I'm primarily outdoor gigs, so wide coverage from a single box is preferable.

At least in terms of tops - I've been wanting to hear (or hear more reviews of):

-db Ingenia IG4t (and the IG3t)
-Presonus CDL12p (not much lighter than the SM80 - but a powered box)
-Meyer UltraX40

I have a pair of IG4T's and IG2T's and have zero complains about them. When I read about the need for a system to scale up/down they came to mind. I've posted these video's before but I'll post them again. If you search Douglas R. Allen and IG4T there is a lot there.

Not my video just something I found on youtube. 2 IG3T's per side with unknown subs.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jE9_29ISIc

The IG4T's I have. I've ran a single stack of 2 tops before and really thought it sound great and the output was very good. The IG4T's have the same SPL rating as the IG3T's but are designed with subs in mind. At a light 40lbs each the IG4T's with subs do everything a 15/horn always did before for me.      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhCYYAsTUd0

Douglas R. Allen

Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Brian Adams on May 07, 2021, 02:09:35 pm
I use 4 FBT CS1000's for smaller shows and they're awesome. They pack up small, they're fairly lightweight, somewhat scalable, and I can easily set them up myself. The tops tilt, so they work whether I'm on a flat space, an amphitheater, or a room with a balcony. I use 1 per side for super small shows, and 2 per side, stacked, for larger ones. While they probably don't quite have the juice of an SM80/TH118, they punch well above their weight. I just like them because they're easy to move around and set up, they're loud enough, and they sound great. They're not perfect, but they're perfect for what I need them for.

I sold 4 dB Technologies IG4T's to a friend of mine to replace his 12 box DVA T8 array, and he loves them. He said a pair of IG4T's is about the same output as 6 T8's, but he can easily set them up himself, which he loves. They're very lightweight for their size.

If I were you, if you want a system that's easy to set up by yourself, I'd be looking at a column array like these. Pretty much everyone makes one now, so you have plenty to choose from. I know I wouldn't want to go back to the days of setting up a big trap box system alone, even if the speakers are lighter now. SM80's and TH118's are awesome, but they're very large in comparison to my 4 FBT CS1000's.


Full disclosure, I'm a FBT and Danley dealer, and I get dB Tech through one of my distributors. I'm not a Meyer dealer, but I've always been impressed with their stuff.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Doug Fowler on May 07, 2021, 08:57:00 pm
Check out BASSBOSS.  Probably have to go to Cali for a demo, though.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 07, 2021, 10:00:31 pm
Check out BASSBOSS.  Probably have to go to Cali for a demo, though.

Agreed. Stupid name. Serious subs.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Doug Fowler on May 07, 2021, 10:09:18 pm
Agreed. Stupid name. Serious subs.

The top boxes are really really nice.

Regarding the name, keep in mind who they are selling to.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Corey Scogin on May 08, 2021, 12:42:12 am
Thanks for all the responses. I have questions.

Spec wise the output of tt2a and Sm80 are stated to be the same but I can say with certainty that the sm80 can outrun the tt2a and then some.
This surprises me. From this can I surmise that the TT22-a is another small step down in overall output?

I think youíd be well served with anything in the tt range from rcf or even nx.  It will basically be a sideways move but you will gain the ability to use the box without subs when needed.
The TT series has certainly been in my short list.

Have you looked at any other Danley boxes that can be pole mounted and run stand alone? Sm96 perhaps.
I have considered this but not recently. It's worth another look. Thanks.

Iíd almost say to get something like an evox 12 or es1203 for the smaller stuff. 
You may be on to something. I've considered that or a pair of RCF HD32a just for the smaller stuff. I haven't heard a column system that sounds as clean as a good 12" 2-way but I've only heard Bose and JBL column systems.
For anyone that has used some of these new "higher-end" column systems, do you like the sound relative to a good 12"/2-way? Which column system has been your favorite?

Besides the RCF TT+ models - also check out the Martin CDD Live 15.
That looks like a solid box. I'd like to get an idea what pricing might look like.
Any Martin dealers feel free to send me a PM with a quote for a pair of the CDD-LIVE 15's and SXP subs.

I have the SM80/TH 118 combo too. My vote for a hi-quality powered portable system just underneath the current combo's capabilities would be for a Yamaha DZR 112 ...
^^^^^^^ This. I have the older DSR112's (need to get some DZR's and push the DSR's to monitor duty). It isn't going to handle a larger crowd like the Danley setup, but it is shockingly good for such a small system and gets stupid loud.
...it would be extremely tough to beat a DZR12...
I have used the DSR112 several times and really liked it for what it was. However, it wasn't nearly as "open" and clean as the SM80. I'm surprised at the recommendations for the DZR12.
Is the subjective sound quality of the DZR series really close enough to the SM80 that it would meet my criteria of "Sounds roughly as good as the SM80"?
I know the SM80 isn't perfect and there are several boxes that sound better but I would not have expected anything squarely in the MI market to get close. If it does, I'm all about some commonly-available, somewhat cheaper boxes. No one has recommended the matching sub.
Am I to assume the sub in that series is a let down like most of the previous Yamaha subs?

Meyer Ultra-X40.
Sounds absolutely fantastic and can get LOUD if needed.
750-LFC if you want a supercompact sub.
900-LFC if you want a compact sub with more low extension and  SPL.
That looks like it checks all the boxes perfectly. Thanks for that suggestion. Pricing concerns me a bit as I have no idea what it might be.
Are there any Meyer dealers here willing to send a quote for that setup?

I have a pair of IG4T's and IG2T's and have zero complains about them.
Not my video just something I found on youtube. 2 IG3T's per side with unknown subs.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jE9_29ISIc
I've seen your videos, read your posts, and that video too a while back. I have been keenly interested in the IG series for some time. I haven't found a bad review of them. That video is particularly impressive. To get that level above a not-so-quiet crowd of that size with such a small setup is impressive.
If you need subs, what do you run with the IG series?
What I haven't seen is someone compare the sound of a Danley box with the IG series. The providers I'm familiar with near me in Birmingham, AL only rent bigger stuff or cheaper stuff as far as I know. No in-between so not likely I'll find those in anyone's stock to demo myself. If any of you have connections down here with someone who might have a set, I'd be grateful.

Check out BASSBOSS.  Probably have to go to Cali for a demo, though.
I so much want to swallow my pride and consider those. The DV12-MKII looks like a solid contender. I'd certainly want to hear them first. Not exactly a standard horn type there.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Neale Watson on May 08, 2021, 09:28:13 am
If your budget is >$30K, by all means go with the Meyer ...

No .. the Ultra X series are much lower price, and I found that where I am the Meyer dealer was prepared to deal
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on May 08, 2021, 03:05:57 pm

If you need subs, what do you run with the IG series?
What I haven't seen is someone compare the sound of a Danley box with the IG series. The providers I'm familiar with near me in Birmingham, AL only rent bigger stuff or cheaper stuff as far as I know. No in-between so not likely I'll find those in anyone's stock to demo myself. If any of you have connections down here with someone who might have a set, I'd be grateful.


   I use rather loud but MI grade Yorkville LS801pb subs. They work fine for a single top as far as just keeping up but I wanted a little more when I had 2 IG4T's on top of one sub. Although I'm betting they'd be a bear to move around the new Yorkville Synergy SA115S sub may be a good match for 2 on top.  I've seen in different video's around people using DVA30 and in this video they are using SRX800's and I thought the sound of this video was good for the event.

On Youtube if you search IG4T you'll see a lot of video's with people using many different subs.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la7SBZsmghA

Douglas R. Allen

https://reverb.com/item/39261093-yorkville-sa115s-9000w-1x15-powered-subwoofer-new-with-full-warranty?



Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Tim Weaver on May 08, 2021, 10:51:20 pm
The top boxes are really really nice.

Regarding the name, keep in mind who they are selling to.

Oh I'm aware. I still think it would be hard to utter the name Bassboss on a show advance. Even for a DJ.


I've only used one of his older line array things. It was OK. It could have been the provider that was "just OK" as well. Maybe the boxes were just fine! lol
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Neale Watson on May 09, 2021, 12:51:31 am
^^^ This.  The X40/750 is about a 1:1 linear system.  If you're looking for the LF rise, the 900-LFC is the ticket.

For even smaller, the Ultra-X20 will get slightly louder than the older UPJ-1P and is slightly smaller than the older UPJunior.  Paired with the 750-LFC sub, it gives you the +4 to +6 dB  LF rise ...

Brian - you talk about getting some LF rise.  Simple (dumb?) question; how do you manage the lack of separate level control on the Meyer subs? Aux feed?

Thanks
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Brian Bolly on May 09, 2021, 03:46:16 am
Brian - you talk about getting some LF rise.  Simple (dumb?) question; how do you manage the lack of separate level control on the Meyer subs? Aux feed?

Aux/bus/matrix fed, push the faders on the sources with LF higher, EQ said sources different, or put a processor in the system so you have independent EQ/level/delay for each speaker/zone ópick your flavor. 
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 09, 2021, 04:59:10 am
Thanks for all the responses. I have questions.
This surprises me. From this can I surmise that the TT22-a is another small step down in overall output?
The TT series has certainly been in my short list.
I have considered this but not recently. It's worth another look. Thanks.
You may be on to something. I've considered that or a pair of RCF HD32a just for the smaller stuff. I haven't heard a column system that sounds as clean as a good 12" 2-way but I've only heard Bose and JBL column systems.
For anyone that has used some of these new "higher-end" column systems, do you like the sound relative to a good 12"/2-way? Which column system has been your favorite?
That looks like a solid box. I'd like to get an idea what pricing might look like.
Any Martin dealers feel free to send me a PM with a quote for a pair of the CDD-LIVE 15's and SXP subs.
I have used the DSR112 several times and really liked it for what it was. However, it wasn't nearly as "open" and clean as the SM80. I'm surprised at the recommendations for the DZR12.
Is the subjective sound quality of the DZR series really close enough to the SM80 that it would meet my criteria of "Sounds roughly as good as the SM80"?
I know the SM80 isn't perfect and there are several boxes that sound better but I would not have expected anything squarely in the MI market to get close. If it does, I'm all about some commonly-available, somewhat cheaper boxes. No one has recommended the matching sub.
Am I to assume the sub in that series is a let down like most of the previous Yamaha subs?
That looks like it checks all the boxes perfectly. Thanks for that suggestion. Pricing concerns me a bit as I have no idea what it might be.
Are there any Meyer dealers here willing to send a quote for that setup?
I've seen your videos, read your posts, and that video too a while back. I have been keenly interested in the IG series for some time. I haven't found a bad review of them. That video is particularly impressive. To get that level above a not-so-quiet crowd of that size with such a small setup is impressive.
If you need subs, what do you run with the IG series?
What I haven't seen is someone compare the sound of a Danley box with the IG series. The providers I'm familiar with near me in Birmingham, AL only rent bigger stuff or cheaper stuff as far as I know. No in-between so not likely I'll find those in anyone's stock to demo myself. If any of you have connections down here with someone who might have a set, I'd be grateful.
I so much want to swallow my pride and consider those. The DV12-MKII looks like a solid contender. I'd certainly want to hear them first. Not exactly a standard horn type there.


Corey, I am an FBT dealer also and could probably arrange demo units for the CS1000, they are in an interesting space in the market.  I think you should also take a look at the FBT Horizon system, it seems to fit your application and it uniquely scales horizontally and vertically.  FBT build quality and support is off the hook.  B&C drivers, excellent joinery and finished on the cabinet, it take a licken and keeps on ticken!  The Horizon fits in the same basic space as the X40 at a much lower cost. 


Drop me a PM if you would like a demo or just to chat about my ideas.  Good luck!

Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Steve Litcher on May 10, 2021, 12:49:18 pm
My bad on the >$30K... I received a quote on them about 15-16 months ago and wasn't recalling the number clearly.

It's still a significant investment... for comparison, you could probably buy *almost* 8x SM80 (again, depending on the deal one might negotiate) for the cost of the X40 rig. I'm not sure that it sounds that much better - my demo was indoors with some reflective surfaces, so it wasn't ideal.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Andrew Olsen on May 11, 2021, 06:14:33 am
My two cents.
I have the IG4T, the DZR 12 and the DZR 10, and the Captivator 2 12.
I havenít mixed on the DSL stuff, but I have gigged with it.

I think the ďhigh end columnĒ sounds just as good as the 1 12 plus horn.
I havenít had either wide open, but suspect the DZR12 is louder.
I also think the SM80 sounds better than either, but not by much.
I prefer the Db IG4T to the DZR12 for how they sound.
I generally use 1 IG4T over 1 Captivator 212 for mains, Yamahaís for monitoring.

Iím in the same spot as you, 1 man rig, want good sound and easy set up.
I came in under budget, thanks to help from this websites members.
In the future, if I need more, looking to add 2 extra IG4Ts.
Am now thinking of the smallest Bassboss sub for drum wedge.
I could also use it as a single sub in conjunction with the 2DZR10s for a small rig.
Recently got a small board from Mike P. for just that purpose.
I really like the DZR10s!! Thanks Mike.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on May 11, 2021, 12:14:55 pm
My two cents.
I have the IG4T, the DZR 12 and the DZR 10, and the Captivator 2 12.
I havenít mixed on the DSL stuff, but I have gigged with it.

I think the ďhigh end columnĒ sounds just as good as the 1 12 plus horn.
I havenít had either wide open, but suspect the DZR12 is louder.
I also think the SM80 sounds better than either, but not by much.
I prefer the Db IG4T to the DZR12 for how they sound.
I generally use 1 IG4T over 1 Captivator 212 for mains, Yamahaís for monitoring.

Iím in the same spot as you, 1 man rig, want good sound and easy set up.
I came in under budget, thanks to help from this websites members.
In the future, if I need more, looking to add 2 extra IG4Ts.
Am now thinking of the smallest Bassboss sub for drum wedge.
I could also use it as a single sub in conjunction with the 2DZR10s for a small rig.
Recently got a small board from Mike P. for just that purpose.
I really like the DZR10s!! Thanks Mike.

I see you have some IG4T's used with Captivator 212's.  I use 1 - IG4T with 1 LS801pb ( also IG2T's ) and like the 1 to 1 setup. With 2 IG4T tops to 1 sub ratio I feel the single sub is reaching. How do you like the Captivator 212 with the single top. Do you feel if pushed both would limit at the same time or subs first etc?

Thanks;
Douglas R. Allen



Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Jay Marr on May 11, 2021, 12:53:29 pm
I see you have some IG4T's used with Captivator 212's.  I use 1 - IG4T with 1 LS801pb ( also IG2T's ) and like the 1 to 1 setup. With 2 IG4T tops to 1 sub ratio I feel the single sub is reaching. How do you like the Captivator 212 with the single top. Do you feel if pushed both would limit at the same time or subs first etc?

Thanks;
Douglas R. Allen

A lot of love for the IG4T's.   Curious if either of you have compared them to RCF NX24?
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on May 11, 2021, 01:31:00 pm
A lot of love for the IG4T's.   Curious if either of you have compared them to RCF NX24?

   Jay;

   I've never heard the RCF NX24's. So can't comment.

John Moore over at Trinity Pro Sound has done a full break down of both. I'll link the company and the 2 videos if you haven't seen them yet. I know he has owned and used both so maybe send his company an email.  I'm betting they would be close output wise but weight considerations may be the determining factor between them. Also the Ingenia line has 3 inch voice coil on the horn and 6.5 inch speakers, some vertical steering, delay,adjustable crossover, 3 band etc. features the RCF is lacking.

https://www.trinityprosound.com/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZ_y9iCDypQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8pnoX5fPEg

Douglas R. Allen



Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Mark Scrivener on May 11, 2021, 01:47:54 pm
My two cents.
I have the IG4T, the DZR 12 and the DZR 10, and the Captivator 2 12.
I havenít mixed on the DSL stuff, but I have gigged with it.

I think the ďhigh end columnĒ sounds just as good as the 1 12 plus horn.
I havenít had either wide open, but suspect the DZR12 is louder.
I also think the SM80 sounds better than either, but not by much.
I prefer the Db IG4T to the DZR12 for how they sound.
I generally use 1 IG4T over 1 Captivator 212 for mains, Yamahaís for monitoring.

Iím in the same spot as you, 1 man rig, want good sound and easy set up.
I came in under budget, thanks to help from this websites members.
In the future, if I need more, looking to add 2 extra IG4Ts.
Am now thinking of the smallest Bassboss sub for drum wedge.
I could also use it as a single sub in conjunction with the 2DZR10s for a small rig.
Recently got a small board from Mike P. for just that purpose.
I really like the DZR10s!! Thanks Mike.

Interesting that the DZR12's might be louder than the IG4T's. Presumably doubling up the IG4T's would only get you a 3dB increase, or does it work differently with column speakers?

Also curious how you would describe the sound of the IG4T's to the DZR12's and how significant the difference is (to you). From what I can see, the IG4T's are about 50% more expensive (advertised price) than the DZR12's, so just trying to get a feel for what that buys you. Obviously the ability to double them up is one advantage, but so is having interchangeable mains and floor wedges.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on May 11, 2021, 02:30:05 pm
Interesting that the DZR12's might be louder than the IG4T's. Presumably doubling up the IG4T's would only get you a 3dB increase, or does it work differently with column speakers?

Also curious how you would describe the sound of the IG4T's to the DZR12's and how significant the difference is (to you). From what I can see, the IG4T's are about 50% more expensive (advertised price) than the DZR12's, so just trying to get a feel for what that buys you. Obviously the ability to double them up is one advantage, but so is having interchangeable mains and floor wedges.

I haven't measured my IG4T's couple but I did measure my IG2T's coupled. I found the output increased roughly 5db's or so full band pass. The frequency response was even down to the 120hz crossover set on them other than the measurement related to the speakers being off the ground. Please note unstacked single and stacked pair was on tripods so the height from the ground when there was 2 IG2T's stacked was effectively different so there is some uneven response in the bass range. I should have done a ground measurement but it was a very cold day pushing for time.

As far as output I've found their spec's are on if not a little on the conservative side. My 4T's and 2T's difference in output are exactly as stated in their spec sheet and the 4T's match and better the output of all the 15 and horn speakers I have in inventory.  I can't explain the sound difference but it is just not the same as a 15/Horn or even 12/Horn. Hard to describe but worth a demo.

https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.php?topic=171900.0

https://www.harmonycentral.com/forums/topic/1932981-basic-db-ig4t-yorkville-ef500p-comparison/

Douglas R. Allen

Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Brian Bolly on May 11, 2021, 02:55:47 pm
I haven't measured my IG4T's couple but I did measure my IG2T's coupled.

I have to ask - was your delay time not set for these measurements, or is the phase response of that speaker genuinely that bad?
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on May 11, 2021, 04:42:16 pm
I have to ask - was your delay time not set for these measurements, or is the phase response of that speaker genuinely that bad?

   I was looking in the crossover area at that time. Phase of course is in relation to frequencies. The coupled speakers remained in phase with each other quite well clear up to the horn area. There is the Single speakers Phase Trace and the Combined speakers phase trace on at the same time. The horns centers are roughly 4 inches or so apart even when coupled so there is bound to be a timing issue in relation to microphone placement. A dip at 12 k is seen in the phase but not in the magnitude response. As you look at the magnitude response the 2 speakers coupled are very close with a 4.5 to 5+ db gain from 400 to 18k or so. If there was a major phase issue in that range it would have shown a bad magnitude response in that area with the coupled speakers.  If anything the response is somewhat smoothed out with the speakers coupled. The dip in response and uneven magnitude at 400hz with a phase difference as well could be related to the distance from the top woofer to the bottom one of about 4 feet or so and me dropping the speaker and measurement microphone down as the stack of 2 I felt was questionably unstable up as high as it was at first on a tripod. I didn't do another impulse response after I did that which was operator error on my part. I'd guess the boost at 250hz or so was the 4 - 8 inch drivers coupled well with each other and the ground. The roll off at 150hz or so the opposite of that.  Take any 15 inch and Horn speaker and set another exact same speaker on top of it upside down coupled like the IG2T's and look at what you get. ( I have ) you won't get this kind of phase / magnitude coupling. At least with all the ones I have tried. As with everything in life there is trade offs for every design. At this price point they couple well and sound great doing it.
   I don't have one for a IG2T speaker but the balloon response for a IG4T looks very good. Even compared to a SM80. ( Like everything it has to be taken with a grain of salt)
   This was a quick measurement to take a look on a very cold morning. I wasn't disappointed with the sound of them coupled. If anything I found they sounded like a single speaker just louder. Which is the intent of the design.

Douglas R. Allen

Edit: I may have misread your question. When I realized the double stack was unstable I looked at the Single speaker and Double Stack with no Impulse or set delay to peak if you will so this is yes with no alignment between reference and source.  I was at first thinking you were talking about the phase relationship between the single speaker and stacked speaker. I left my reply anyway.

Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on May 11, 2021, 05:58:48 pm
Interesting that the DZR12's might be louder than the IG4T's. Presumably doubling up the IG4T's would only get you a 3dB increase, or does it work differently with column speakers?

Also curious how you would describe the sound of the IG4T's to the DZR12's and how significant the difference is (to you). From what I can see, the IG4T's are about 50% more expensive (advertised price) than the DZR12's, so just trying to get a feel for what that buys you. Obviously the ability to double them up is one advantage, but so is having interchangeable mains and floor wedges.

Looking around I found this. It shows 1 IG4T going to coupled 2 yields a 4.5 db increase in spl average which is exactly what I found in my coupled IG2T. In my measurements I found in my IG2T's some area's that were higher than a 5 db and some around 4.5 db's so I'm thinking the IG4T is the same. I'm unsure if the dip around 1.2 khz is noticeable as a good thing or not. I have some time so I may just take my 4T's out and take a look and give them a listen.

Douglas R. Allen

Sorry for the post swerve.  EDIT:  I also never noted or measured such a drop in spl on the highest frequencies so I'm unsure how these measurements were done. Just an image I found online.

 
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Corey Scogin on May 11, 2021, 06:04:52 pm
I have some time so I may just take my 4T's out and take a look and give them a listen. 

The vertical directivity plot of the IG4T shows a very narrow band roughly around the crossover region. I know the vertical isn't typically as important as the horizontal but in some situations, it comes into play.

Care to listen for that while you're out testing?
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on May 11, 2021, 08:18:32 pm
The vertical directivity plot of the IG4T shows a very narrow band roughly around the crossover region. I know the vertical isn't typically as important as the horizontal but in some situations, it comes into play.

Care to listen for that while you're out testing?

   Sure , of course the horn is Vertical Asymmetrical by design. Toward the top of the speakers horn lens the pattern is tighter and toward the bottom it is wider. I'm guessing depending on where the measurement was taken you could get different results? I honestly don't know.  1100 hz is not as high as some speakers horn to mid crossover frequencies but as you say it may effect the stand up sit down crowd. Do you know if this was 1 speaker or a coupled pair? If this is a single speaker I wonder how this would change with two? Where the 2 Asymmetrical horns may act different ?  This is the first time I've seen this plot. It's odd in all the years I've had my Ingenia speakers I've never noticed it. Maybe like a line array if you put pink noise on and walk around, stand or sit you'll notice differences but with music it's a moving target. I know through the years I've always seen them as a speaker a person should demo. It will either do what you want and you'll love them like I do or they won't fit your needs. They are a speaker that can be run as a single or coupled so the Asymmetrical Horn lens may be "part" of that design. Looking at the IG4 and IG2 comparison both have the dip around 270hz or so and the IG4T has that dip around 1.4 khz range. Both do fine up to 18k which is way above anything I can hear at my age. I'm sure you've seen all the Facebook video's where a pair of coupled IG3T's or 4T's can do a fairly good job. Even in windy conditions. To me the whole point though is to use one speaker a side for X size crowds and then couple 2 for Y size crowds as they were designed from the start to sound as good as practical in both applications. 

Douglas R. Allen

Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Corey Scogin on May 11, 2021, 11:06:41 pm
   Sure , of course the horn is Vertical Asymmetrical by design. Toward the top of the speakers horn lens the pattern is tighter and toward the bottom it is wider. I'm guessing depending on where the measurement was taken you could get different results? I honestly don't know.  1100 hz is not as high as some speakers horn to mid crossover frequencies but as you say it may effect the stand up sit down crowd. Do you know if this was 1 speaker or a coupled pair? If this is a single speaker I wonder how this would change with two?

I'm not at all trying to cast aspersions at the series. I am genuinely curious how much the data lines up with real-world experience. The IG series has caught my eye for a long time. Everything's a tradeoff and most speakers have frequency/phase/dispersion oddities.

The plot I posted was captured from EASE GLL Viewer. You can download the EASE GLL Viewer (https://ease.afmg.eu/index.php/ea-tools-en.html) software from EASE and the GLL files per-speaker from some manufacturers including DB Technologies (https://www.dbtechnologies.com/en/downloads/).
The files contains measurement data and the software has several features for displaying it. It's good for comparing more than just spec numbers. It is, in the end, academic still. It doesn't tell you how good a speaker will sound subjectively. I also wouldn't trust the max SPL values you see there from all manufacturers. Load up the QSC K series and you'll see what I mean.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Andrew Olsen on May 12, 2021, 07:05:50 am
Hi Doug,Jay,Corey,and all.

I have not had the Captivator + IG4T wide open yet.
Iím in clubs and small theaters. Outside is about the only
situation I can think of where I might need that much volume.

To answer Dougís question, I guess Iíd assume the sub would fart out
before the top, but with the Captivator, Iím not so sure.
Itís pretty punchy and tight, and plenty loud.

Iím just a bass player with a PA, so Iím way over my head with the
measurements and all. So take my 2 cents with a grain of salt.
The IG4T sounds rounder, and more pleasant,than the DZR 12.
The sound seems less focused, more all around. Sort of like a gig with
everyone on those Bose sticks.
But remember, Iím listening to break music, before the gig, during set up,
and hearing what I can, during the gig,after I set it and forget it!

Mark, I agree the price for the IG4Ts over the DZRs might not be justified.
I donít think they are twice as good as the Yamahas.
But they both are in a unique niche, not quite pro level, but not Guitar Center either.

Form function,size, weight, and sound, all work for me.
Iím amazed at how good the bass sounds, in both really, but especially the DZR12.
I can get the IG4T above an audienceís head easily. If I start running sound for others,
the combination of 2 IG4T a side seems like a winner. That would be LOUD!

But back to Coreyís original point.
Doubt either of these get you into SM80/TH18 territory,
but for backyard party gigs, heck yea!
The Yamaha sub is probably fine, 15 or 18. Not knocking it, but havenít heard it.
Db Technology probably has great subs too. Doubt itís at Meyer level, but still?

Funny, I have never heard or seen an RCF product yet. Love to !

There is a old Meyer rig on Craigslist in MN for $3,000.00.
4 subs, 9 tops, riggings and 3 processors. No amps, if anyone is interested.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Scott Holtzman on May 12, 2021, 11:10:59 pm
Hi Doug,Jay,Corey,and all.

I have not had the Captivator + IG4T wide open yet.
Iím in clubs and small theaters. Outside is about the only
situation I can think of where I might need that much volume.

To answer Dougís question, I guess Iíd assume the sub would fart out
before the top, but with the Captivator, Iím not so sure.
Itís pretty punchy and tight, and plenty loud.

Iím just a bass player with a PA, so Iím way over my head with the
measurements and all. So take my 2 cents with a grain of salt.
The IG4T sounds rounder, and more pleasant,than the DZR 12.
The sound seems less focused, more all around. Sort of like a gig with
everyone on those Bose sticks.
But remember, Iím listening to break music, before the gig, during set up,
and hearing what I can, during the gig,after I set it and forget it!

Mark, I agree the price for the IG4Ts over the DZRs might not be justified.
I donít think they are twice as good as the Yamahas.
But they both are in a unique niche, not quite pro level, but not Guitar Center either.

Form function,size, weight, and sound, all work for me.
Iím amazed at how good the bass sounds, in both really, but especially the DZR12.
I can get the IG4T above an audienceís head easily. If I start running sound for others,
the combination of 2 IG4T a side seems like a winner. That would be LOUD!

But back to Coreyís original point.
Doubt either of these get you into SM80/TH18 territory,
but for backyard party gigs, heck yea!
The Yamaha sub is probably fine, 15 or 18. Not knocking it, but havenít heard it.
Db Technology probably has great subs too. Doubt itís at Meyer level, but still?

Funny, I have never heard or seen an RCF product yet. Love to !

There is a old Meyer rig on Craigslist in MN for $3,000.00.
4 subs, 9 tops, riggings and 3 processors. No amps, if anyone is interested.
Thanks!


Would you mind providing a link?  I could not find the Meyer gear. Thanks
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Corey Scogin on May 12, 2021, 11:45:53 pm
I have the IG4T, the DZR 12 and the DZR 10, and the Captivator 2 12.

I think the ďhigh end columnĒ sounds just as good as the 1 12 plus horn.

I should have been more specific. By "'high end' column", I wasn't referring to the IG series or anything with a horn. I was referring to the array-of-small-speakers setups that are on the top end of that spectrum: RCF EVOX 12, FBT CS1000, etc.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Brian Bolly on May 13, 2021, 03:03:57 am
Edit: I may have misread your question. When I realized the double stack was unstable I looked at the Single speaker and Double Stack with no Impulse or set delay to peak if you will so this is yes with no alignment between reference and source.  I was at first thinking you were talking about the phase relationship between the single speaker and stacked speaker. I left my reply anyway.


This mostly answers my question.  So your delay time was not set properly, therefore the phase response shown in the traces is not correct - got it. 

I did pull the EASE GLL files to look out of sheer curiosity, and there is the phase wrap at the crossover so it's marginally better than what is shown in your traces.  Interestingly, the GLL for the IG4T shows a HF response (from the crossover on up) that looks a lot like your screen shot with about a half dozen phase wraps in the HF.  Which leads me to believe that either the GLL was not created properly, or it really is that bad.


Quote
The horns centers are roughly 4 inches or so apart even when coupled so there is bound to be a timing issue in relation to microphone placement.

I would argue this point.  If you have the speakers stacked as you described (top one inverted), you should easily be able to position the mic in the vertical domain so that the mic is at the acoustic center between speakers, and the offset is 0 ms when either speaker (or both speakers) are turned on if the delay finder is set accordingly.


Quote
Take any 15 inch and Horn speaker and set another exact same speaker on top of it upside down coupled like the IG2T's and look at what you get. ( I have ) you won't get this kind of phase / magnitude coupling. At least with all the ones I have tried. As with everything in life there is trade offs for every design. At this price point they couple well and sound great doing it.

If one were to take two speakers of the same mfg and model ó regardless of driver complement ó invert the top one and stack them together with a mic placed at the acoustical center between the two speakers in the vertical domain, one should expect that they would sum in magnitude, even though the HF is/are likely overlapping by some number of degrees.  If not, you have one of two problems: 1) The mic is not on the acoustical center between speakers and therefore you have a time arrival offset from one speaker; or 2) At least one speaker is broken.

Example: Attached screen shot, no trace smoothing.  MAPP XT prediction of 2x UPA-1P with the mic at the acoustical center vertically, and at some distance horizontally.  One box (RED trace) and both boxes (BLUE trace).  Since the mic is at the acoustical center between speakers, the phase trace for both is nearly identical to a single enclosure, and the magnitude sums nicely.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Russell Ault on May 13, 2021, 03:54:46 pm
{...} This mostly answers my question.  So your delay time was not set properly, therefore the phase response shown in the traces is not correct - got it.  {...}

Looking at the posted traces I don't think there's anything improper or incorrect about the delay compensation used; they're just not set in a way that's typically used for a whole-system measurement (which Douglas mentioned in his post). A measurement with no delay compensation (which is what I would consider to be improper, since it yields no actionable data and often causes coherence issues) will have a phase trace that only lags, but clearly that's not what's happening here.

Delay-finders latch on to the loudest-per-frequency (as opposed to -per-octave) sounds which (because sound is perceived logarithmically) is basically always the HF. The phase trace of a measurement using the delay finder for compensation will almost always be in-time in the HF and lagging as the frequency drops (typically due to the effects of various high/low-pass filters of some kind). This is useful for checking the phase compatibility of speakers for arraying. Plus, displaying a given time offset takes fewer wraps in the LF than it does in the HF (because phase wraps are linear but phase traces are displayed logarithmically), which means that traces that are in-time in the HF tend to look "prettier".

The phase trace in the posted measurements clearly has delay compensation set because it is in time at ~350 Hz, lagging below and leading above. Pushing the in-time frequency this low (or even lower) can be both proper and correct if one is most concerned about phase interactions at those frequencies (as, for example, one is when time-aligning mains to subs).

{...} I did pull the EASE GLL files to look out of sheer curiosity, and there is the phase wrap at the crossover so it's marginally better than what is shown in your traces.  Interestingly, the GLL for the IG4T shows a HF response (from the crossover on up) that looks a lot like your screen shot with about a half dozen phase wraps in the HF.  Which leads me to believe that either the GLL was not created properly, or it really is that bad. {...}

Phase is just time, and in the HF (where periods are in the sub-millisecond range) it doesn't take much time one way or the other to add phase wraps. Moreover, describing the phase response of a DUT in isolation as "bad" almost certainly misses the point: above a certain (low) frequency humans almost certainly can't hear phase offset (or time smear), soóall else being equalóthe measured phase response of the HF of a speaker is pretty meaningless. The only reasons to care about speaker phase response are (a) because you're trying to make two speakers work together (i.e. an array) or (b) because you're actually hearing problems with what's coming out of the speaker and you're trying to gather as much information as possible to help determine why that might be.

-Russ
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Andrew Olsen on May 13, 2021, 05:25:35 pm

Would you mind providing a link?  I could not find the Meyer gear. Thanks
https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/msg/d/saint-paul-meyers-sound-speaker-system/7320321938.html

4 USW-1 (2 15Ē subs)
9 UPA-1C ( 2way 12Ē tops)
2 M1-A
1 B-2EX
16 Rigging frames for tops
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Russell Ault on May 13, 2021, 05:38:42 pm
https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/dak/msg/d/saint-paul-meyers-sound-speaker-system/7320321938.html

4 USW-1 (2 15Ē subs)
9 UPA-1C ( 2way 12Ē tops)
2 M1-A
1 B-2EX
16 Rigging frames for tops

That's not a lot of processors for that many speakers (although I do know someone who's had success rolling their own UPA processing in a modern-day DSP, based off of M1-A measurements).

-Russ
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Mark Wilkinson on May 13, 2021, 06:13:44 pm


Delay-finders latch on to the loudest-per-frequency (as opposed to -per-octave) sounds which (because sound is perceived logarithmically) is basically always the HF. The phase trace of a measurement using the delay finder for compensation will almost always be in-time in the HF and lagging as the frequency drops (typically due to the effects of various high/low-pass filters of some kind). This is useful for checking the phase compatibility of speakers for arraying. Plus, displaying a given time offset takes fewer wraps in the LF than it does in the HF (because phase wraps are linear but phase traces are displayed logarithmically), which means that traces that are in-time in the HF tend to look "prettier".



Hi Russ, don't mean to dropping into to much tech that ain't about the thread. 
But I don't think that's how delay finders work, ala Smaart, Arta, REW....the ones i know. I don't think they latch onto loudest-per-frequency.
They all seem to work to find an impulse peak....which is a summation of the highest energy received at a point in time from all contributing frequencies voting.
And a key point is it is a summation where each freq gets a vote. So 19k to 20k gets 1000 votes. Just like 20Hz to 1020 Hz gets only a thousand votes. Politics even in FFT voting, Lol.
(But you know all that...just going on for others who maybe don't.)

The thing is, that took me along time to see, is the highest energy received once we are below the VHF/HF range where voting is so linearly skewed, is where magnitude is flat.
It's just the way it sums up, the way the math integrates. The way the impulse peak votes add up.  That's where the delay finder is.

If this is incorrect, hopefully the guys from RA (or any of the myriad others smarter than me), will set it straight.


To go back OT...my pair of UPA-1p's and whatever subs, has easily been my simplified solution (when audience size fits)
Heavy bastards though, X-40 looks much nicer.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Russell Ault on May 13, 2021, 10:54:38 pm
Hi Russ, don't mean to dropping into to much tech that ain't about the thread. 
But I don't think that's how delay finders work, ala Smaart, Arta, REW....the ones i know. I don't think they latch onto loudest-per-frequency.
They all seem to work to find an impulse peak....which is a summation of the highest energy received at a point in time from all contributing frequencies voting.
And a key point is it is a summation where each freq gets a vote. So 19k to 20k gets 1000 votes. Just like 20Hz to 1020 Hz gets only a thousand votes. Politics even in FFT voting, Lol.
(But you know all that...just going on for others who maybe don't.)

The thing is, that took me along time to see, is the highest energy received once we are below the VHF/HF range where voting is so linearly skewed, is where magnitude is flat.
It's just the way it sums up, the way the math integrates. The way the impulse peak votes add up.  That's where the delay finder is. {...}

Man, I'm on a roll today. "Loudest-per-frequency" was definitely a poor choice of terminology on my part.

What you've just explained there is what I was trying to say (but failed): delay finders will always track to being in-time with the HF because the top octave being measured contributes as much to the calculation of the impulse peak as all the rest of the frequencies being measured combined. Thus, we've become accustomed to looking at phase traces where the HF is in-time and the LF is lagging, but the only inherent superiority of this data view is the ease of coming up with a (useful) delay compensation value.

-Russ
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Douglas R. Allen on May 15, 2021, 02:43:00 pm
   I had an IG2T out so I did a quick measurement. I'll try to look at a IG4T when I get the chance.  Basic DBX $99 Dollar RTA microphone. Mic was 3 feet back and I put it 1/2 between the horns throat center and the center of the 8 inch driver just below it. 1/2 between the 2 centers of these drivers.  Delay time ended up being 10.63ms to align Smaart at 10 khz which I felt was fine as I have 6 ms of delay set in the IG2T to get it in alignment with the subs I use. The IG2T had a 120hz internal crossover set in it.

   The COH looked good enough for this measurement up until the highest of frequencies where I believe the DBX struggled with what is maybe a 20hz High cut filter or simply the limit of the horn as well as the below 63hz or so but of course it was 24db's down do to the 120hz built in low cut filter I was using.

   There is as seen 1 phase wrap at around 900hz or so but I have measured worse than this. It can't compete with a SM80 for sure but still not that bad overall. It really does sound good.  I hope this covers what you where looking for.

   Kindest Regards;
   Douglas R. Allen

   Edit: Crossover in the IG2T is 1900hz and the IG4T is 1100hz.
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Yoel Klein on May 20, 2021, 03:41:12 am
Hi folks,
Great advice and knowledge from everyone.

I still feel I want to write my take on it. Why? Because I know some stuff that others will for sure benefit.

I own a pair of SM80ís and I had almost the same requirements about a year ago right here on PSW.

I have tested different Danley boxes in real environments. Not just a box in a pole with a $80 meter. But on a actual live paying jobs with a backup system in place should the test go not as expected.

The kind of events Iím talking about is Jewish events in BIGGEST Shuls (synagogue) in New York with LOTS of human flesh dressed with wool and fur coats (Rabbinical weddings) with bleachers on either side going up  18 -20 feet in hight.
The style music was all an event can call for. Speach, Polka style music mixed with hard rock for the upper verse of the song, and allot of content in the high frequencies, allot of crashes and symbols from a Korg Pa4x stressing the drivers to its max and EDM music for certain songs. Now add a group of vocal singers with a lead vocal and the SPL is testing the built in limiters on the DNA apms. 

So... the smaller One Man Band with a minivan also wanted the punch and SPL compared to lines of JBL or 6+ JBLís on sticks.

The overlooked candidate is a SM60F....  You guys have no idea how LOUD this box goes, and the low end was enough to leave the TH118ís in storage for smaller jobs. Gas wise its a bit less volume compared to the SM80ís but you can run it without a sub and no one would know. The SM60F has that extra tickle in the notes down at the 50ish frequencyís. I can testify that it sits comfortably at the peak level while still sounding clean. And Iím a clean freak...

Next surprise and overlooked box, is the.... Go2 8cx.... believe it or not I did an install (not a real install but rather a setup to be set up every time the same) with 2 Go2ís and no sub. they simply left one Go2 in closet... why bother bringing it out and plugging a cable when one Go2 is plenty loud. For about 30-50 people, One Go2 did it without any subs.  Donít ask me how.. I couldnít believe it either. Mr. Josh emailed me a PDF for the amplifier and limiter settings. I got an affordable QSC 300 watt amp and the ďsystemĒ is light enough for a 10 year old to setup.

I will finish with one final story. 
In one of the biggest Shuls in upstate NY, we use for mains J1ís or J6ís with a pair of BC415ís. Yah I know the J6 is too narrow for a Shul, but we needed the J1ís for outdoors and as long as we donít get J7ís the J6 made a fine job with precise angle hanging and rigging.

So, not to long ago, a major event was to take place in the big Shul. Since there are people who listen with their eyes, the decision was to RENT line arrays for that particular event so it LOOKED MASSIVE! 

A couple days before the event, was the Jewish holiday íPurimí. The request came last minute to turn on the big JBL arrays for a full force Purim dance. The guy who brought the arrays could not get them to produce sound quick enough with all the logistics involved. Even though all arrays were already hoisted and hooked up.

The grand Rabbi comes in and everyone is WAITING for the sound to come alive. But... for some reason (unknown to me) the complex system didnít turn on.  In an effort to save the night, We quickly grabbed my 2 SM80ís... crabbed a ladder and simple hung the 80ís underneath the Lowest box of the main LR arrays. Then we ran to the storage and grabbed a DNA20K amp with the 80ís preset in it, we grabbed a powered RCF double 21Ē sub that was already sitting on a dolly, and within minutes the entire Shul came alive! We quickly ran back to get some RCF powered fills and the event was on!!

People who came in to join the dancing after the ďcrisisĒ still believe that those huge arrays worked...  we closely monitored the DNA system engineer limiter and driver performance. Yes we pushed it like never before.

The event lasted for a couple hours with people coming and going taking shifts in dancing.

And That is - ladies and gentlemen - the Danley SM80ís.

Would I do it again and use the 80ís instead of the Jís? Nops. But would I do it with any other similar brand similar SPL box? NO! because a danley box pushing it to sit in the limiter would still sound loud and clean. No other box can do that at peak SPL.

So, my closing statement... when thinking about comparing SM80ís to similar size and specks RCF, EAW, etc. you should know your not comparing apples to apples. Take a look on the SM60F, you could place them vertically 2 at a side widening the coverage and adding another 3db with both boxes working as one source. This is what I call modular.

Forgive me if the article was so long..
Title: Re: Looking to simplify - options for a modular SOS system that sounds fantastic
Post by: Weogo Reed on May 21, 2021, 09:39:28 am
Hi Yoel,

    Great stories!
I've been meaning to get my ears on some Go2 8CX boxes.

    I used SM60Fs a couple weeks ago for covering a large outdoor area, for a mostly speaking event.
Additionally there were center-, corner- and delay-fills.
We brought up the SM60Fs first and walked the whole area.   
Though the sound was a bit soft 200' back, we could have done it with just the two SM60Fs.
    Line arrays were considered, but we knew there were going to be
several people speaking who aren't loud and don't stay on the mic.
Sometimes in these situations lines increase feedback potential over what a point-source system can do.

    An SM60F weighs 50# and has a pole cup but I regularly use them with the yokes, which adds 8#.
If they aren't enough, Tom Danley's original td-1s come out, and beyond that I hire in bigger.

Thanks and good health,  Weogo